-First let me say that this really isn't about "trashing" Sandy and the job he has done
-I'm vocal about my dislike of ownership. I fully realize that a large percentage of the Mets "problems" is due to budgetary issues. Reading between the lines of Sandy's comments yesterday you should expect a lower payroll in 2018. That being said improvement doesn't have to come with spending.
I am of the belief that we need a regime change. Sandy's "patience" has been a virtue in many ways.... going forward the Mets need to be bold, they need to be open-minded, they need to be proactive and they need to willing to make moves on the fly. I do not personally feel Sandy and this FO is best equipped to partake in such a vast change in philosophy. The Mets likely need a younger, more energized person who will be willing to "tinker" more. Trades like the Hicks deal for the Yankees, Beckham for Baltimore, Dyson to Seattle. Moves like these "minor" deals that sometimes work out big.
The better franchises in this sport are often competitive for longer stretches and have smaller downtime. A massive percentage of the Mets' existence is "down years" - we get one good year for every 5-6 crappy ones.
Enough is e-fucking-nough.
Quote:
Approach needs to change, ownership needs to change (not happening) - a lot of things need to change. This team is never competitive for more than a year or two in a row.
The better franchises in this sport are often competitive for longer stretches and have smaller downtime. A massive percentage of the Mets' existence is "down years" - we get one good year for every 5-6 crappy ones.
Enough is e-fucking-nough.
. This is true but this team was not built for a 1-2 year peak. Look around baseball. Teams like the Red Sox and Giants are considered to be extremely well run. That doesn't mean they both haven't had multiple years lately where everything goes to shit. Sometimes it can't be helped. Also, look at the 2000 and 2006 teams. We went after aging vets at the end of their primes. Guys like Zeile, Ventura, Leiter, Delgado, Wagner, Pedro, ect... this team is decidedly different whether it works out or not. The entire rotation and lineup is young. Our top prospects are just now hitting the show. Those teams had be torn down shortly after. I don't see that with this team. If guys can't stay healthy? That's another story.
The Red Sox have won THREE World Series' in the last 15 years. I don't think fans are going to care about a couple of down years when that's the case. And the Sox are very competitive much more often than they have bad years.
They have a bunch of young studs... Benintendi, Devers, Betts, Bogaerts, etc. They're a very well-run team. I'd trade places with them in less than one second.
SF also has won 3 WS' in the last 10 years (less than that)
If the Mets had been winning chips like that, I'd hardly have any problem with their approach.
Link - ( New Window )
On the broadcast last night they were asking why in the world Granderson was still on the Mets and not on a contender.
They suspected he'd be dealt any day now.
And the down years are less frequent because of the way they're run. The Mets are not run nearly as well as the Red Sox.
This isn't a 1 off for the Mets. It's right in line with what's been going on for 30 years now. This team is never sustainably competitive.
Quote:
Is a true class act. Kind of weird timing to do this (being dealt?) Link - ( New Window )
On the broadcast last night they were asking why in the world Granderson was still on the Mets and not on a contender.
They suspected he'd be dealt any day now.
He's such a good guy I'd almost just do it as a favor but it'll also open up PT for Nimmo and... save Fred $$. We need to see what Nimmo is/isn't. Collins threw him out there back to back games and he stunk it up 0/7 with 5 k's. We need to know if he's a guy we can rely on for 2 weeks, 3 weeks, if he's a guy who can stay healthy etc.
We have two of the top 10 aces in baseball heading up our staff next year, a world class closer, and a young core lineup that will likely be supplemented with a couple key free agents.
Nobody has to agree with me, but I don't feel badly about our current direction or situation at all. There are things that bug me. Ive never been a Terry fan. I'm not a Wilpon fan (although they've been better lately), I'm fed up with the injuries. Our system could be a little better (to be fair we did just graduate a ton of talent) I still believe Sandy has been much more part of the solution than everything else surrounding the Mets.
The Pitching staff turned into a shambles. The weak bullpen was wrecked by Terry once he lost his Closer, he burnt out the BP in the first month of the season.
The regular position players all were hurt at one time or another this year. That's not just Bad Luck.
If they were able to put their so-called Regular 8 on the field, as intended...they may have had a chance.
And the down years are less frequent because of the way they're run. The Mets are not run nearly as well as the Red Sox.
This isn't a 1 off for the Mets. It's right in line with what's been going on for 30 years now. This team is never sustainably competitive.
Yeah. I get it. But I still feel your focused on a front office approach. My point was much more isolated. Basically, the best teams in baseball can go to shit in any given year. Injuries are usually the culprit. Maybe that happened to the Mets this year, maybe not.
A down year can happen to any team in baseball, even the best ones. I agree. But I think the Mets' was probably easier to see coming in retrospect because of the way the team was constructed - and I think it would be a mistake to say "let's just get these guys healthy and try again next year" because I think that's going to lead us right back down this same road.
This is also a bit of hindsight on my behalf because I did think this was a 90+ game winner in March. But the more I thought about it and saw how it played out, the more I realized how the approach lacked foresight and was flawed and am worried we're going to make this same mistake again going into next year.
I love David Wright, but they were insane to give him that contract...they should have moved on from him and Reyes at the same time.
Decisions with this team aren't made with baseball first and foremost in mind. It's about PR and an ability to sell the product. Awful.
Way to much respect to have pulled the trigger right before playing Yankees.
Nelson Cruz (a DH)
Ian Kinsler
Grandy
Brandon Phillips
That's it!
- letting Murphy leave (simply unforgivable)
- trying to trade for Carlos Gomez (his best deal wasn't first choice)
- Planning on playinglast year without cespedes. He got absurdly lucky that cespedes fell into his lap, we were going to start the season with a center fielder we released half way through the year.
- refusal to spend on bullpen. He has habitually tried to get by with mediocre relievers going back to Francisco.
- not trading Reyes when he knew he wasn't going to resign him
- drafting cechini - everyone knew he was going to stink and he has done nothing to prove us wrong
Not sure how much of that is Wilpon induced but Sandy has done some genius things and he has done a fleet of the dumbest things imaginable.
I love David Wright, but they were insane to give him that contract...they should have moved on from him and Reyes at the same time.
Decisions with this team aren't made with baseball first and foremost in mind. It's about PR and an ability to sell the product. Awful.
I don't think Syndergaard is an "asshole" or at all comparable to Harvey. I also don't have much of an issue with the team marketing their players.
It's the way they're constructing the rosters and their lack of an aggressive approach to acquire international talent that is the biggest culprit in my opinion as well as the frugality that always factors into the baseball decisions made at the MLB level.
Link - ( New Window )
I think the guy just wants to pitch.
I think the guy just wants to pitch.
That's the same shit people said about Harvey until he removed all doubt.
And while I'm far from an expert, as far as I can tell there is a difference between throwing 100 MPH for 6 innings and actually pitching.
Were any of these guys showing signs of actually learning how to pitch, and being able to deal with days that they didn't have their best stuff?
So frustrating.
Noah was/is becoming a fantastic pitcher. He's not just a flamethrower. The slider he's developed is a plus pitch. He had the lowest FIP in the Majors in 2016. He went 7, struck out 10 and allowed 0 runs in the biggest game we played last year.
deGrom seems to be the guy who does the best when he doesn't have his best stuff - but that's not easy to teach.
Once the season started, his velocity crept down and the break on his pitches diminished. His stuff turned from nasty to hittable really fast. Has anyone heard anything about an injury with him?
Once the season started, his velocity crept down and the break on his pitches diminished. His stuff turned from nasty to hittable really fast. Has anyone heard anything about an injury with him?
Stuff sure hasn't looked the same in any way. Makes you think he's been pitching hurt.
A down year can happen to any team in baseball, even the best ones. I agree. But I think the Mets' was probably easier to see coming in retrospect because of the way the team was constructed - and I think it would be a mistake to say "let's just get these guys healthy and try again next year" because I think that's going to lead us right back down this same road.
This is also a bit of hindsight on my behalf because I did think this was a 90+ game winner in March. But the more I thought about it and saw how it played out, the more I realized how the approach lacked foresight and was flawed and am worried we're going to make this same mistake again going into next year.
Good post. I kind of always felt like the team was fluid though. Our biggest injuries this year weren't to guys you expected injuries from or players that were normally hurt (Thor, Cespedes, Familia) but more than that guys like Walker, Cabrera, and Duda were placeholders until you get to Rosario, Smith, ect. I feel like we kind of got caught with our pants down a little this year because our top prospects were close but not really ready and our vet placeholders were injured or ineffective on top of the other Big 3 being out. In short, things compounded this year in a way that none of us could have expected but it's not the end of the line. There is talented youth littered all throughout the team.
Dan, Hicks is a career 230 hitter. I think everyone needs to take it easy with him.
There was nowhere to put Turner and he was a below replacement level player on the Mets. Even as a utility guy and Flores is better in that role than Turner was as a Met.
Good riddance was my thought when he left. Also fully admit I hated the mere site of him.
To look back a few years later and say how could they let that 29 year old journeyman go is second guessing at it's worst.
He has a ridiculous .434 OBP this year, more than 110 points higher than any of his Mets seasons.
Quote:
remember 2 of the best players on the Yankees were small trades (Didi/Hicks) and neither cost much in terms of talent (and didn't cost money). The Dodgers for all of their money... scooped up Turner, added Chris Taylor for "nothing", sold high on a pitching prospect (De Leon) to add a good cost controlled regular in Forsythe etc. The Mets haven't really shown a willingness/ability to make such moves.
Dan, Hicks is a career 230 hitter. I think everyone needs to take it easy with him.
Who cares what his career average is? He's been worth 2.8 fWAR for the equivalent of Kevin Plawecki (JR Murphy). His career average has zero relevance to it being a fantastic zero risk gamble that paid off. 1.5 fWAR over 90 games with the Twins, was a former high pick and the Yankees took a shot. He's inarguably been one of the Yankees best players this season.
There was nowhere to put Turner and he was a below replacement level player on the Mets. Even as a utility guy and Flores is better in that role than Turner was as a Met.
Good riddance was my thought when he left. Also fully admit I hated the mere site of him.
To look back a few years later and say how could they let that 29 year old journeyman go is second guessing at it's worst.
He has a ridiculous .434 OBP this year, more than 110 points higher than any of his Mets seasons.
PJ is this toward me? I didn't blame Sandy Alderson for Justin Turner. I gave the Dodgers CREDIT for Justin Turner and Chris Taylor etc etc.
Quote:
remember 2 of the best players on the Yankees were small trades (Didi/Hicks) and neither cost much in terms of talent (and didn't cost money). The Dodgers for all of their money... scooped up Turner, added Chris Taylor for "nothing", sold high on a pitching prospect (De Leon) to add a good cost controlled regular in Forsythe etc. The Mets haven't really shown a willingness/ability to make such moves.
Dan, Hicks is a career 230 hitter. I think everyone needs to take it easy with him.
ryan, are you telling me if Sandy deals Plawecki for a guy who in his age 27 season has a big year (but previously wasn't very good) you won't be giving him big time credit and telling people to "take it easy" with giving him credit? I find that very, very hard to believe.
However, I think you're right on the money as far as making smaller scale moves with potentially rewarding yields.
ryan, are you telling me if Sandy deals Plawecki for a guy who in his age 27 season has a big year (but previously wasn't very good) you won't be giving him big time credit and telling people to "take it easy" with giving him credit? I find that very, very hard to believe.
EHHHhhhh Hemmmmm <clears throat>
FIREABLE OFFENSE!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
for Turner is really revisionist history and 20/20 hind sight. The double whammy of 2nd guessing.
There was nowhere to put Turner and he was a below replacement level player on the Mets. Even as a utility guy and Flores is better in that role than Turner was as a Met.
Good riddance was my thought when he left. Also fully admit I hated the mere site of him.
To look back a few years later and say how could they let that 29 year old journeyman go is second guessing at it's worst.
He has a ridiculous .434 OBP this year, more than 110 points higher than any of his Mets seasons.
PJ is this toward me? I didn't blame Sandy Alderson for Justin Turner. I gave the Dodgers CREDIT for Justin Turner and Chris Taylor etc etc.
Not you, bhill:
bhill410 : 12:17 pm : link : reply
- turner
- letting Murphy leave (simply unforgivable) .........
A lot of Mets fans hate when you bring up Turner and Murphy but those were two huge mistakes. Especially letting Murphy go to your division rival
Then just way too many poor signings of guys like De Aza, Salas , Francisco etc
He is also the one who kept Collins around for 7 years
That said, the Wilpons have a terrible record in hiring GMs, so if they are going to put someone like Ricco in charge, I would just as soon have Sandy
There was nowhere to put Turner and he was a below replacement level player on the Mets. Even as a utility guy and Flores is better in that role than Turner was as a Met.
Good riddance was my thought when he left. Also fully admit I hated the mere site of him.
To look back a few years later and say how could they let that 29 year old journeyman go is second guessing at it's worst.
He has a ridiculous .434 OBP this year, more than 110 points higher than any of his Mets seasons.
I think Turner was let go because Mets did not want to offer him arbitration.So basically they were trying to save the 1.5 million that he would cost over a minor leaguer.
I think it was about money not having a place for him. Sandy made a mistake but really ownership has to take some of the blame when the GM has to release a middle infielder who .280 to save a measly 1.5 million
I also feel like Sandy has hit on those guys once in a while anyway. Marlon Byrd was acquired for nothing and he turned into Dilson Herrera who turned into Jay Bruce who's now turned into a reliever prospect under control for 6-7 more years. That's some payoff. It happens but it shouldn't be expected.
I think the answer is that a lot of posters had no problem letting Murphy go, so they think it is "second guessing" when you criticize the move. But if you really wanted Murphy resigned, then you see it as an unbelievably bad move. So I think it really depends on your perspective.
Turner and Murphy go in the negative column and Reed and Thor in the positive column
You can always justify every move. It is not like Sandy is a dolt. He had good reasons for every move. But you don't get credit for the thinking behind moves, you get credit if they work.
I also feel like Sandy has hit on those guys once in a while anyway. Marlon Byrd was acquired for nothing and he turned into Dilson Herrera who turned into Jay Bruce who's now turned into a reliever prospect under control for 6-7 more years. That's some payoff. It happens but it shouldn't be expected.
All due respect but "reliever prospect under control" implies he got an actual prospect. The kid he got for Jay Bruce is in A-ball at 22 years old with a 5.00 era 1.52 whip and over his last 10 appearances....12 innings 25 hits 8 walks 13 k's 12.00 era. You phrase it as if he's a guy who is 1. good bet to be with the Mets EVER 2. His years of control are important because he's going to be expensive at some point. If he does well in AA it would be a surprise.
Quote:
ryan, are you telling me if Sandy deals Plawecki for a guy who in his age 27 season has a big year (but previously wasn't very good) you won't be giving him big time credit and telling people to "take it easy" with giving him credit? I find that very, very hard to believe.
EHHHhhhh Hemmmmm <clears throat>
FIREABLE OFFENSE!!!!!!!!!
Shecky, admit it once and for all, you ARE Kevin Plawecki lol