-First let me say that this really isn't about "trashing" Sandy and the job he has done
-I'm vocal about my dislike of ownership. I fully realize that a large percentage of the Mets "problems" is due to budgetary issues. Reading between the lines of Sandy's comments yesterday you should expect a lower payroll in 2018. That being said improvement doesn't have to come with spending.
I am of the belief that we need a regime change. Sandy's "patience" has been a virtue in many ways.... going forward the Mets need to be bold, they need to be open-minded, they need to be proactive and they need to willing to make moves on the fly. I do not personally feel Sandy and this FO is best equipped to partake in such a vast change in philosophy. The Mets likely need a younger, more energized person who will be willing to "tinker" more. Trades like the Hicks deal for the Yankees, Beckham for Baltimore, Dyson to Seattle. Moves like these "minor" deals that sometimes work out big.
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There are talent evaluators all over the league that are smarter than any of us that pass when these guys are on the scrap heap. Every once in a while those guys pay off, most of the time they don't. Blaming a GM for not hitting the lottery on a scrap heap guy when 29 other teams also didn't show much interest is kind of weak IMO (not referring to anyone here)
I also feel like Sandy has hit on those guys once in a while anyway. Marlon Byrd was acquired for nothing and he turned into Dilson Herrera who turned into Jay Bruce who's now turned into a reliever prospect under control for 6-7 more years. That's some payoff. It happens but it shouldn't be expected.
All due respect but "reliever prospect under control" implies he got an actual prospect. The kid he got for Jay Bruce is in A-ball at 22 years old with a 5.00 era 1.52 whip and over his last 10 appearances....12 innings 25 hits 8 walks 13 k's 12.00 era. You phrase it as if he's a guy who is 1. good bet to be with the Mets EVER 2. His years of control are important because he's going to be expensive at some point. If he does well in AA it would be a surprise.
Ok well we don't know how that's going to work out yet... change my response to "a theoretical prospect" and keep everything else the same. I think it's safe to assume Herrera/Bruce already paid for Byrd's 500k contract 20 times over regardless of the reliever.
Shecky, admit it once and for all, you ARE Kevin Plawecki lol
Kevin Plawshecki
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for Turner is really revisionist history and 20/20 hind sight. The double whammy of 2nd guessing.
There was nowhere to put Turner and he was a below replacement level player on the Mets. Even as a utility guy and Flores is better in that role than Turner was as a Met.
Good riddance was my thought when he left. Also fully admit I hated the mere site of him.
To look back a few years later and say how could they let that 29 year old journeyman go is second guessing at it's worst.
He has a ridiculous .434 OBP this year, more than 110 points higher than any of his Mets seasons.
I think Turner was let go because Mets did not want to offer him arbitration.So basically they were trying to save the 1.5 million that he would cost over a minor leaguer.
I think it was about money not having a place for him. Sandy made a mistake but really ownership has to take some of the blame when the GM has to release a middle infielder who .280 to save a measly 1.5 million
Turner was 29 years old and could not crack a mediocre Mets lineup. It was not about money. Normally I don't believe anything from a front office and I'm not sure I believe this excuse about non-tendering Turner, but I do believe the last sentence from Sandy.
When asked about the decision Sunday, Mets manager Sandy Alderson did not address Turner's situation directly.
"Don’t assume every non-tender is a function of money," Alderson said.
Turner was unemployed when the Mets non-tendered him until almost spring training. So, it's not like the baseball world responded with "holy shit, the Mets non-tendered Justin Turner" they responded when oh well that guy is pretty mediocre anyway, though he can play multiple positions (though none well) and is a decent bat off the bench.
2015 and beyond Justin Turner is not the same as 2013 and before Justin Turner.
You can ask yourself why the Dodgers were able to get Turner to play so much better than the three organizations Turner was part of before the Dodgers, but blaming Sandy is simply Monday morning quarterbacking.
The Orioles flat out waived Turner when he was per-arbitration eligible. The Reds included him as a throw-in in a trade for Ramon Hernandez.
Lucky for you Sandy said he wants to get a better look at Reynolds so be prepared!!
(Turner was a MUCH better minor league hitter than Reynolds by the way, nobody saw THIS coming but Turner looked like he could be a solid MLB hitter while in the minors, Reynolds not so much).
I actually was pretty angry when they dumped Turner. I had NO idea he would be this good at all, I'd be lying if I said otherwise. I just knew the backstory to Turner's dumping and found it low class they way they shit on him through the media. Seemed like a Red Sox move.
And if anyone thinks that they can judge the trades that Sandy made this year at this point, then that would be extremely dumb.
If Mets injury fortune turns around even just a little bit, they will be much improved and we can go from there.
And no, you can't just toss aside the WS and playoff appearance. He traded for players that helped get them there and are now cornerstones of the franchise.
And if anyone thinks that they can judge the trades that Sandy made this year at this point, then that would be extremely dumb.
If Mets injury fortune turns around even just a little bit, they will be much improved and we can go from there.
The "other" guys they added are different levels of actual "prospects". Ryder Ryan is not. He's a guy who throws hard who is already 22 and has been absolutely awful in A ball. To call him a "prospect" is the same as calling every single minor league a "prospect".
Not that Murphy would be a good option at 3B, he's not a good option at 2B defensively, he would have been a consistent presence in the lineup.
and his leaving sort of coincided with the whole spinal stenosis thing.
Ryan has definitely struggled this year but he was named an all star at midseason. He's a high ceiling strikeout guy at best but yes, he might ultimately not be good, just like anyone else in the minors.
Doing anything other than waiting it out to see if these guys develop is just utterly ridiculous.
@keithlaw anything positive to say on Ryder ryan
keithlaw Retweeted Ryan Brodie
Teflon Terry can't play him over Conforto
Ryan has definitely struggled this year but he was named an all star at midseason. He's a high ceiling strikeout guy at best but yes, he might ultimately not be good, just like anyone else in the minors.
Doing anything other than waiting it out to see if these guys develop is just utterly ridiculous.
Bust? Stop making things up. The guy has been AWFUL. I'm stating facts. But if he's a "prospect" then every single minor leaguer is a prospect right? What differentiates prospect from minor leaguer if not the numbers?
What? He's 22 getting decimated in A-ball. Age when it comes to level in the minors is absolutely relevant. PS, Hicks posted 1.5 fWAR over 90 games his final year with the Twins, which is why the Yankees took a shot on him, they were right. 22 in A-ball and a player not hitting at the MLB level until 27 are 2 totally unrelated things and a BIZARRE take.
With the minors, I think if you can add 2-3 farm guys to your roster year over year, that's pretty good.
Age is beyond relevant when it comes to minor leaguers and the level they play. If you can't see that I don't know what to tell you. Convenient you didn't respond to my hypothetical where Plawecki is dealt for Profar, Profar puts up a big 2018, you'd be telling people to hold their horses on Profar? Career .229 hitter and all? If Sandy traded Plawecki for Kolten Wong pre-2017, Wong posts his current 2017 season .846 OPS, you'd be saying "guys, don't give Sandy credit yet, Wong is 26 and career a .248 hitter?" yeah okay.
You don't think it's relevant that the guy is getting lit up by A ball hitting?
@keithlaw anything positive to say on Ryder ryan
keithlaw Retweeted Ryan Brodie
Teflon Terry can't play him over Conforto
LOL, Law still has finger on the pulse of the Mets. Ask him about Tebow.
So your stance is every minor leaguer is a prospect? That's your right. Thanks for the clarification.
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I understand your a stats guy, but I just don't have any interest arguing stats about a guy who has barely played in the minors. It's pointless.
You don't think it's relevant that the guy is getting lit up by A ball hitting?
I'm saying give the guy a minute in the Mets organization before we throw him in the garbage.
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Ryan Brodie @ItsChodezzzz
@keithlaw anything positive to say on Ryder ryan
keithlaw Retweeted Ryan Brodie
Teflon Terry can't play him over Conforto
LOL, Law still has finger on the pulse of the Mets. Ask him about Tebow.
Tebow is ..3 for his last 32, 6 for his last 51 with 19 k's. If there were any time for Law to want to talk about Tebow now would likely be that time lol
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I understand your a stats guy, but I just don't have any interest arguing stats about a guy who has barely played in the minors. It's pointless.
So your stance is every minor leaguer is a prospect? That's your right. Thanks for the clarification.
No, I'm saying the guys that Alderson traded for could end up being good, or they could end up sucking. But to say that any of us have any clue what that outcome will be, would be a lie.
I mean hey, Aaron Hicks is suddenly good at age 27. These things happen.
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In comment 13563660 DanMetroMan said:
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Ryan Brodie @ItsChodezzzz
@keithlaw anything positive to say on Ryder ryan
keithlaw Retweeted Ryan Brodie
Teflon Terry can't play him over Conforto
LOL, Law still has finger on the pulse of the Mets. Ask him about Tebow.
Tebow is ..3 for his last 32, 6 for his last 51 with 19 k's. If there were any time for Law to want to talk about Tebow now would likely be that time lol
Oh yeah, and to me it's irrelevant how good or bad Tebow does, I just love his reaction.
With the minors, I think if you can add 2-3 farm guys to your roster year over year, that's pretty good.
So you think baseball america, fangraphs and baseball prospectus (and today minorleagueball.com) all saying the system is very poor right now aren't being "patient" enough? No. The system is very thin right now and any neutral observer would agree. Top 10 prospect list is going to be very ugly opening day.
If Sandy didn't make any moves, you guys would be up in arms about that as well.
This notion that there were somehow amazingly better offers out there for the players the Mets got is a joke. You think Alderson is deliberately trying to make the farm system worse?
BA
3. David Peterson, LHP
4. Justin Dunn, RHP (awful year)
5. Andres Gimenez, SS
6. Tomas Nido, C
7. Thomas Szapucki, LHP (will miss next year)
8. Brandon Nimmo, OF
9. Merandy Gonzalez, RHP (Traded)
10. Chris Flexen, RHP
FG
3. Andres Gimenez, SS
4. David Peterson, LHP
5. Justin Dunn, RHP (awful year)
6. Ronny Mauricio, SS (likely won't even play in this country next year, and if he does it'll be GCL)
7. Mark Vientos, SS
8. Chris Flexen, RHP
9. Thomas Szapucki, LHP (miss the year)
10. Peter Alonso, 1B
That being said, Sandy did the best he could with the trades that were out there. What else is there to say? The Mets roster as it stands now is a mix of injured talented pitchers, young farm guys, and Cespedes.
If Sandy didn't make any moves, you guys would be up in arms about that as well.
This notion that there were somehow amazingly better offers out there for the players the Mets got is a joke. You think Alderson is deliberately trying to make the farm system worse?
Sandy more than implied money being saved was at least part of the equation in these deals so it is very believable they could have received more if that wasn't a prerequisite. We will never know.
Cabrera 2B
Conforto CF
Céspedes LF
Smith 1B
Rosario SS
d’Arnaud C
Reynolds 3B
Matz LHP
This fucking team.
So you think it's a good thing that all we had to deal at the deadline is guys that were worth nothing? Isn't that Sandy's fault for putting together a bad team with little of value to restock the system?
Look at how the Yankees restocked their system last year. Even when they wern't contending they had assets on the roster and made savvy moves to reload.
I'd like Lev'eon Bell on the Giants. Is that Reese's fault we don't have him?
We are in 2017 and talking about what's best for 2018 an onward. Dan's post wasn't meant to kill Sandy, it was to advocate for another path forward.
Coughlin did a lot more for the Giants than Sandy did for the Mets and wasn't awarded a lifetime job.
If you don't think that age is relevant in the minor leagues then you clearly don't follow it closely.
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Ryan is "already 22" ...when you just were making the point that Alderson should go after more guys like Hicks...who is 27...and hadn't shown anything at all in the majors before the Yankees traded for him.
If you don't think that age is relevant in the minor leagues then you clearly don't follow it closely.
Not getting in the argument either way but this is Ryans first year ever pitching in a full season. He was a position player in college. Kind of hard to fault the age in this scenario. He very well could amount to nothing though. Sandy saw something he liked. I'm willing to see it develop a little more.
Makes absolutely no sense and then we will go into next year "what if" "maybe" etc. Still 6 weeks left but lets get him in there. I keep repeating this but it's not just about being able to start him once a week.. what if Cespedes goes on the DL, is Nimmo a guy you can run out there for 2-3 weeks? Is he a guy whose body will stand up to playing often? Lets find out.
Maybe they think they are about to trade Granderson? Other than that I have no idea.