Stapleton makes a good point in that article that I think gets lost on a lot of people, which is that in practice, the defense already knows what the offense is doing. They generally know that they're running or passing. So they have the distinct advantage of simply attacking that play type without worrying about Eli making all types of pre-snap adjustments or protection changes.
In real game situations, this is obviously not going to be the case. They're also not giving him any help in practice with guys like Ellison which is something we're going to see sometimes in games.
Lastly, Vernon is an excellent player and he's going to have a monster season if he's healthy. I really believe that. Flowers is not getting beat by some schlub. This is an upper-tier, two-way DE who is in his prime right now.
Flowers did some good things against PIT which I think is more important than whether he's winning or losing battles in practice.
Yes, you want to see the technique improve. You want to see him get his body lower. You want to see better lateral movement to counter speedy edge rushers. But I think there's a chance some progress is being made here and we have to give the guy a chance before we bury him. He's obviously working his ass off and doing his best. If he struggles again this year, we'll have to consider moving him. But for now, he's the LT and that's not changing any time soon.
Stapleton makes a good point in that article that I think gets lost on a lot of people, which is that in practice, the defense already knows what the offense is doing. They generally know that they're running or passing. So they have the distinct advantage of simply attacking that play type without worrying about Eli making all types of pre-snap adjustments or protection changes.
In real game situations, this is obviously not going to be the case. They're also not giving him any help in practice with guys like Ellison which is something we're going to see sometimes in games.
Lastly, Vernon is an excellent player and he's going to have a monster season if he's healthy. I really believe that. Flowers is not getting beat by some schlub. This is an upper-tier, two-way DE who is in his prime right now.
Flowers did some good things against PIT which I think is more important than whether he's winning or losing battles in practice.
Yes, you want to see the technique improve. You want to see him get his body lower. You want to see better lateral movement to counter speedy edge rushers. But I think there's a chance some progress is being made here and we have to give the guy a chance before we bury him. He's obviously working his ass off and doing his best. If he struggles again this year, we'll have to consider moving him. But for now, he's the LT and that's not changing any time soon.
Might as well root for him and hope he succeeds.
Excellent post. Let's give him a chance. Few players have been as closely scrutinized as Flowers. That's what happens in the NFL, especially when you're the 9th pick in the draft. But he's worked hard this off season.
I have been as critical as anyone and besides Flowers, Â
Richburg collapsing pocket, Jerry no runs and who really knows Hart and stay on the field Pugh....the entire OL has issues and it's the teams Achilles heel.
The Giants does not need the OL to be great,....just better then last year. Any improvement will make a world of difference....if they are just ok to Decent...that is enough.....and what really scares me....remain healthy.
The fact that we now have Marshall, Engram, Ellison and Shane Smith.... Will help tremendously. Quicker open plays, bigger targets, middle deep a threat, improve chipping of oncoming rushers, edge containment and lead blockers....all help.
...the most critical unit on a team is the offensive line. The O-Line is a defense's best friend. The question for the 2017 edition the the New York Giants:
are not good to hear. If that isn't happening in practice there is almost no way it is going to be there on 3rd and 9 in Lincoln Financial Field with 70,000 screaming jackasses. As the article says we'll have to wait and see during the season.
With two #1 s and a 2 spent in the compiling of that line, it wouldn't be such a question mark. Reese gets criticized a lot for ignoring this unit when fact is he has spent significant resources trying to fix it.
I'm not very good at isolating offensive linemen during a game, Â
Richburg collapsing pocket, Jerry no runs and who really knows Hart and stay on the field Pugh....the entire OL has issues and it's the teams Achilles heel.
This sums it up for me. And it's how it plays out in games. All 5 guys have weaknesses and randomly misfire. Makes it difficult to sustain anything. And unless McAdoo starts doing things differently he isn't going to keep the TE in much in pass pro. In a WCO the TE is involved in the pass routes and a key read. That's the whole point of the quick game, not having to keep extra blockers in.
from what I can tell when the speed rusher goes outside EF stands way too upright and it puts his shoulder pads higher then the player he's trying to engage. Thats his primary flaw
this is not a new issue among offensive tackles in the league and is is a technique that can be corrected in time.
Also what I see is stout run blocking LT who always is the first guy in and out of the pile.
Its a risk but the reward of Flowers developing has quite a bit of value that could def create a massive advantage
position after QB, who anyone care to explain Dallas going 4-12 just two years ago??? Why do you think they had the 4th overall pick that enabled them to pick Zeke???
Give me a great D-Line and 2-3 great skill players and a mediocre o-line. The Patriots seem to do fine without All Pros running rampant on their O-Line.
Everyone gushes about the Dallas O-Line - what exactly have the accomplished, one playoff win.
Here's what I saw. Probably a third of the snaps (a lot of the first ones), no one rushed his side -- he just stood up. Tells us nothing.
There was only 5 or 6 plays where he engaged a rusher, and of those, a couple didn't look full-speed.
Most of the plays on this video are STILL shotgun or 3 step drop plays where the ball is coming out very quick. Thus the OL only has to hold for 2 seconds. I think I saw one 5 step drop play, and certainly no 7s or sprint-outs. No long passes. This tells me that -- at least as of the day this was shot -- the offense still isn't running plays that force the OL to protect longer. Draw your own conclusions. It may be that if they get a run game going, they can get some 5 step drop/play action going against opponents. But we're not seeing it here.
Was very nice to see a FB lined up in the formations.
Flowers is somewhat improved so far and he is making a sincere effort. Richburg may end up being the bigger concern this season if he does not bounce back from last season.
I think people forget that OL's work together as a unit and that development takes time each season. And guys are going to get beat from time to time.
at LT. I have very little hope that he will ever improve into a serviceable LT. unless he makes some king of miraculous change Giants will not pick up his 5th year option in 2019.
Now as for other oline postions? If he struggles (which is likely) next year they need to play him at RT or G to see if he is a total bust or not. As long as this organization keeps their Rose colored glasses on, they will keep him at LT and Eli will suffer.
God I hope something clicks in his head and he balls out. I SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO want to be wrong about him.
Stapleton makes a good point in that article that I think gets lost on a lot of people, which is that in practice, the defense already knows what the offense is doing. They generally know that they're running or passing. So they have the distinct advantage of simply attacking that play type without worrying about Eli making all types of pre-snap adjustments or protection changes.
In real game situations, this is obviously not going to be the case. They're also not giving him any help in practice with guys like Ellison which is something we're going to see sometimes in games.
Lastly, Vernon is an excellent player and he's going to have a monster season if he's healthy. I really believe that. Flowers is not getting beat by some schlub. This is an upper-tier, two-way DE who is in his prime right now.
Flowers did some good things against PIT which I think is more important than whether he's winning or losing battles in practice.
Yes, you want to see the technique improve. You want to see him get his body lower. You want to see better lateral movement to counter speedy edge rushers. But I think there's a chance some progress is being made here and we have to give the guy a chance before we bury him. He's obviously working his ass off and doing his best. If he struggles again this year, we'll have to consider moving him. But for now, he's the LT and that's not changing any time soon.
Might as well root for him and hope he succeeds.
Doesn't that go both ways through. Everyone knows what everyone is doing, for the most part, don't they? I'm not an expert by an means and you and I are usually on the same wavelength, but I sort of feel like that's giving Flowers a pass.
And its not always just that Flowers gets beat, its that he looks like a JV high-schooler when it happens. If you can picture someone like Tyron Smith (or even David Diehl in his prime) in practice going against Vernon, imagine how different that would look.
at LT. I have very little hope that he will ever improve into a serviceable LT. unless he makes some king of miraculous change Giants will not pick up his 5th year option in 2019.
Now as for other oline postions? If he struggles (which is likely) next year they need to play him at RT or G to see if he is a total bust or not. As long as this organization keeps their Rose colored glasses on, they will keep him at LT and Eli will suffer.
God I hope something clicks in his head and he balls out. I SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO want to be wrong about him.
Two year starters are not busts. Has he underwhelmed considering his draft position...Definitely. Could the Giants decline to pick up what will be an expensive 5th year option...certainly.
It's too early to call him an outright bust...especially after he had a decent outing against Pittsburgh.
guy started as a 20-21 year old rookie who was supposed to play on the right side for a year or two to develop.. Had to start as the LT as a kid.. with no veteran on staff to help teach him the ropes. Got injured with a bad ankle rookie year. had a new coach second year teaching him second year.. has put in the time this offseason to improve his conditioning..
And people just seem to ignore that college football rarely turns out Elite LT's anymore because many of them play in a spread offense or in a two point stance..
Oh yeah.. and Olivier Vernon one of the best pass rushers in the league who has more hurries than anyone the last 2-3 seasons gives him trouble in practice..
lets wait until the games begin.. Im more concerned about Richburg and Jerry..
to see a review of his technique by people who really understand OLine. POsition coaches at the pro level or scouts or former palyers. LT is the hardest position out there. If they had a viable alternative, they may have switched him to RT. It's clear he's putting in the work.
there's been a lot of hand wringing over practices. If the Giants were that concerned or are that concerned with Flowers they will do something about it.
Let the guy play some games before killing his 3rd season of play.
I also believe that contrary to myth you can in fact win with a sub par left tackle. Not saying Flowers will be bad or good or average but people like to romanticize David Diehl around here as if he was a star tackle. He was gritty, tough and versatile but he was also flawed at LT. Giants still won two titles.
Relax. The media marked Flowers with a bulls eye since the jump and once he had that incident with the reporter the heat on him has only gotten hotter. Every fucking practice we are putting Flowers through the mill. It's ridiculous. It's one position, not ten.
Stapleton makes a good point in that article that I think gets lost on a lot of people, which is that in practice, the defense already knows what the offense is doing. They generally know that they're running or passing. So they have the distinct advantage of simply attacking that play type without worrying about Eli making all types of pre-snap adjustments or protection changes.
In real game situations, this is obviously not going to be the case. They're also not giving him any help in practice with guys like Ellison which is something we're going to see sometimes in games.
Lastly, Vernon is an excellent player and he's going to have a monster season if he's healthy. I really believe that. Flowers is not getting beat by some schlub. This is an upper-tier, two-way DE who is in his prime right now.
Flowers did some good things against PIT which I think is more important than whether he's winning or losing battles in practice.
Yes, you want to see the technique improve. You want to see him get his body lower. You want to see better lateral movement to counter speedy edge rushers. But I think there's a chance some progress is being made here and we have to give the guy a chance before we bury him. He's obviously working his ass off and doing his best. If he struggles again this year, we'll have to consider moving him. But for now, he's the LT and that's not changing any time soon.
Might as well root for him and hope he succeeds.
Doesn't that go both ways through. Everyone knows what everyone is doing, for the most part, don't they? I'm not an expert by an means and you and I are usually on the same wavelength, but I sort of feel like that's giving Flowers a pass.
And its not always just that Flowers gets beat, its that he looks like a JV high-schooler when it happens. If you can picture someone like Tyron Smith (or even David Diehl in his prime) in practice going against Vernon, imagine how different that would look.
I just think it's hard to judge and there's so many elements missing from actual game situations. In a practice/drill setting, I think defensive linemen have an advantage if they know the play type and aren't really concerned with audibles or protection changes.
When you mostly remove the mental aspect, Vernon is probably going to beat Flowers 1 on 1 more often than not simply based on his ability.
In game situations, defenses are going to have to guess a little more - Eli is going to survey the looks they're showing, adjust, etc.
Maybe I am making some excuses for Flowers. I don't know. I am on record saying I definitely don't think he's meant to be a LT long-term and would thrive as OG instead or would probably even fare better @ RT. I just don't want to get crazy about practice stuff when there are a lot of factors that are missing from actual game scenarios.
I thought he held his own in the first preseason game for the most part, so I'm just going to hope it's something he can build from and get better. It's really all I can do.
Stapleton makes a good point in that article that I think gets lost on a lot of people, which is that in practice, the defense already knows what the offense is doing. They generally know that they're running or passing. So they have the distinct advantage of simply attacking that play type without worrying about Eli making all types of pre-snap adjustments or protection changes.
In real game situations, this is obviously not going to be the case. They're also not giving him any help in practice with guys like Ellison which is something we're going to see sometimes in games.
Lastly, Vernon is an excellent player and he's going to have a monster season if he's healthy. I really believe that. Flowers is not getting beat by some schlub. This is an upper-tier, two-way DE who is in his prime right now.
Flowers did some good things against PIT which I think is more important than whether he's winning or losing battles in practice.
Yes, you want to see the technique improve. You want to see him get his body lower. You want to see better lateral movement to counter speedy edge rushers. But I think there's a chance some progress is being made here and we have to give the guy a chance before we bury him. He's obviously working his ass off and doing his best. If he struggles again this year, we'll have to consider moving him. But for now, he's the LT and that's not changing any time soon.
Might as well root for him and hope he succeeds.
Doesn't that go both ways through. Everyone knows what everyone is doing, for the most part, don't they? I'm not an expert by an means and you and I are usually on the same wavelength, but I sort of feel like that's giving Flowers a pass.
And its not always just that Flowers gets beat, its that he looks like a JV high-schooler when it happens. If you can picture someone like Tyron Smith (or even David Diehl in his prime) in practice going against Vernon, imagine how different that would look.
I just think it's hard to judge and there's so many elements missing from actual game situations. In a practice/drill setting, I think defensive linemen have an advantage if they know the play type and aren't really concerned with audibles or protection changes.
When you mostly remove the mental aspect, Vernon is probably going to beat Flowers 1 on 1 more often than not simply based on his ability.
In game situations, defenses are going to have to guess a little more - Eli is going to survey the looks they're showing, adjust, etc.
Maybe I am making some excuses for Flowers. I don't know. I am on record saying I definitely don't think he's meant to be a LT long-term and would thrive as OG instead or would probably even fare better @ RT. I just don't want to get crazy about practice stuff when there are a lot of factors that are missing from actual game scenarios.
I thought he held his own in the first preseason game for the most part, so I'm just going to hope it's something he can build from and get better. It's really all I can do.
He did play well in the preseason game and that absolutely should carry more weight than whatever happens in practice.
but I didn't really become a rabid fan until 1993. I believe Jumbo Elliott struggled his first 3 years and then turned it on in his 4th year, 1991. He became a very good LT.
I believe several young players struggled at tackle for a while and eventually the light came on. Maybe this will happen for Flowers too. He is working hard. No one can question his desire.
and really appreciated the video. If nothing else, it keeps things in context. Many of us are hanging on every tweet coming out of practice since we can't go watch ourselves. Seeing the video only helps reinforce what Joey said - you can't tell anything from these clips.
You can't even tell anything about the offense we're going to run because of 20 or so snaps. Each day the team has a different focus in practice - red/green zone, 4 minute offense, whatever. Who knows what they were working on this particular day?
Flowers was not the problem against Pitt, and he should get plenty of snaps against Cleveland. I'll not put much/any stock into practice reports going forward.
has come from his play in real games, not practice. Frankly, I could give a damn how or what he does in practice...practice is a place where you try to work on things, try to improve so naturally there is going to be a give and take...some plays good, some bad.
My concern or worry is what happens if, after a couple of real games, Dallas and Detroit, he has not shown any progress and is still making the same mistakes he has made in the previous two years. What do we do if or when it becomes obvious he cannot play LT? What is our backup plan...is it moving Pugh there and putting Fluker at LG. Frankly, I am as worried about Jerry at RG as I am with Flowers at LT.
But let's see what happens first before we continue to go ape-shit on this guy. He supposedly had a good first game. Let's worry about this after Eli's first action and his play on Monday night.
Why are so many fans ready to give up on Ereck Flowers? Â
Kid is just 23 and entering his 3rd season in the NFL. Who cares if he's struggling in training camp, isn't that why teams have a month long camp to knock off the rust and refine techniques to prepare their players for the regular season.
Unless my memory is failing, didn't Jumbo Elliot also struggle his first few years in the NFL in 1988 and 1989 before becoming near a Pro Bowl left tackle from 1990 to 1993 seasons?
Jumbo mentioned once in an interview that a lot of his early struggles were to do about confidence in his abilities and facing off against the Giants stellar defense every day. Then in the 1990 season, the games he was healthy enough to play in, he dominated or held in check several key defensive players that season and his confidence just grew each and every week. Including having a huge game against Bruce Smith in the Superbowl.
I think we'll see a similar growth in Flowers 3rd season.
You know what's more scary than saying Flowers is a weak LT? Â
Despite being a first round pick, no one is expecting him to be an All-Pro caliber LT, or even a Pro Bowl level LT. I think it's not just fans, but even the coaches are just hoping Flowers can be consistently 'solid.'
He has continuity now in terms of his fellow OLine-mates and along the coaching staff. So, you can't really put the blame on a lack of continuity on the coaching staff or lack of continuity on the OLine itself. He also has some experience now.
Like I said, no one is expecting greatness from him, despite being a first round pick. Just be solid and don't get the QB killed. It's really not asking for much at this point in his career and considering the circumstances.
when he didn't give up a single pressure in the actual preseason game, yet they are discussing how he fared in half ass drills in practice as the barometer for his success this year.
Man, I'm usually not one to criticize the Giants beat writers cause they are usually great, but this Flowers stuff is getting a little much.
RE: This is the season for Flower's to make a jump Â
Despite being a first round pick, no one is expecting him to be an All-Pro caliber LT, or even a Pro Bowl level LT. I think it's not just fans, but even the coaches are just hoping Flowers can be consistently 'solid.'
He has continuity now in terms of his fellow OLine-mates and along the coaching staff. So, you can't really put the blame on a lack of continuity on the coaching staff or lack of continuity on the OLine itself. He also has some experience now.
Like I said, no one is expecting greatness from him, despite being a first round pick. Just be solid and don't get the QB killed. It's really not asking for much at this point in his career and considering the circumstances.
I disagree strongly. The 9th pick, regardless of position, needs to be an impact player. A foundation type player. Does anyone think this guy is going to be anything more than (at best) serviceable? You know where you are content with "serviceable"? In rounds 3-5. Not 9th overall.
Jumbo was drafted in 88. He most definitely struggled his first year. Played better in 89 but still had growing pains but really came in in 90, his 3rd year. He got beat early but came back to dominate Bruce Smith in super bowl 25.
You're point is sound though. Some tackles take time. Most in fact do take time. Not everyone is Orlando Pace or Ogden.
RE: RE: This is the season for Flower's to make a jump Â
Despite being a first round pick, no one is expecting him to be an All-Pro caliber LT, or even a Pro Bowl level LT. I think it's not just fans, but even the coaches are just hoping Flowers can be consistently 'solid.'
He has continuity now in terms of his fellow OLine-mates and along the coaching staff. So, you can't really put the blame on a lack of continuity on the coaching staff or lack of continuity on the OLine itself. He also has some experience now.
Like I said, no one is expecting greatness from him, despite being a first round pick. Just be solid and don't get the QB killed. It's really not asking for much at this point in his career and considering the circumstances.
I disagree strongly. The 9th pick, regardless of position, needs to be an impact player. A foundation type player. Does anyone think this guy is going to be anything more than (at best) serviceable? You know where you are content with "serviceable"? In rounds 3-5. Not 9th overall.
I think his point is that this is where we're at now with Flowers. We're past the point of expecting a potential foundation player or elite LT. That's obviously not in the cards here. So, what we need right now is for Flowers to be serviceable because if he is, the offense should be alright.
It's just a matter of adjusting expectations. He obviously wasn't worth the 9th overall pick, but there's nothing we can do about that now. We have to hope for the best within the realm of realism.
struggled from 86-88. The Giants then moved Roberts to guard where he played at a pro bowl level.
Brad Benson wasn't the nasty left tackle who dished out beat downs to pro bowler Dexter Manley right away. He took time too.
ONe thing I am certain of, no one here or there knew how these "struggling" tackles were doing in practice. No one knew Jumbo was doing in 89 or 90. For all we know he was getting his lunch handed to him from the likes of Marshall and LT on a daily basis.
Jumbo turned into a pro bowl caliber tackle. Flowers can too although I think it's a stretch to predict pro bowls when you have 2-3 caliber pro bowl tackles in the NFC East alone.
I think it's highly unlikely that Flowers ever becomes a pro bowler - but I certainly don't think it's beyond the realm of possibilities that he becomes a steady OT. It's just expectation adjustment at this point.
Jumbo is a good case to keep in mind for the more hopeful, but it's probably not going to play out the same way for EF.
I mean, it's one game so you take it with a grain of salt - but let me pose this question:
Imagine it was, say, 1995... and the internet wasn't what it was now, Twitter didn't exist, and all we really had access to were some camp updates in the local papers, etc. Sure, you'd see some reports on Flowers here and there - but nowhere near this level of scrutiny.
Then, you saw him in the first preseason game, saw him get 12 opportunities to pass block, and not allow a pressure or a sack.
Look, we know it's highly unlikely that he makes the Pro Bowl, or even becomes an upper-echelon Left Tackle, but at this point I'll be happy if he rises above the lower-echelon to end up somewhere in the middle of the pack. Serviceable, if not spectacular.
RE: RE: This is the season for Flower's to make a jump Â
Despite being a first round pick, no one is expecting him to be an All-Pro caliber LT, or even a Pro Bowl level LT. I think it's not just fans, but even the coaches are just hoping Flowers can be consistently 'solid.'
He has continuity now in terms of his fellow OLine-mates and along the coaching staff. So, you can't really put the blame on a lack of continuity on the coaching staff or lack of continuity on the OLine itself. He also has some experience now.
Like I said, no one is expecting greatness from him, despite being a first round pick. Just be solid and don't get the QB killed. It's really not asking for much at this point in his career and considering the circumstances.
I disagree strongly. The 9th pick, regardless of position, needs to be an impact player. A foundation type player. Does anyone think this guy is going to be anything more than (at best) serviceable? You know where you are content with "serviceable"? In rounds 3-5. Not 9th overall.
arc understood my point. Of course you want an impact player with where Flowers was drafted. And we can all still hope for that. But there's a good chance that isn't going to happen. So, if he winds up just being solid or decent, we'll take that. That's what we need from him. If he's anything better than that, great.
RE: RE: This is the season for Flower's to make a jump Â
Despite being a first round pick, no one is expecting him to be an All-Pro caliber LT, or even a Pro Bowl level LT. I think it's not just fans, but even the coaches are just hoping Flowers can be consistently 'solid.'
He has continuity now in terms of his fellow OLine-mates and along the coaching staff. So, you can't really put the blame on a lack of continuity on the coaching staff or lack of continuity on the OLine itself. He also has some experience now.
Like I said, no one is expecting greatness from him, despite being a first round pick. Just be solid and don't get the QB killed. It's really not asking for much at this point in his career and considering the circumstances.
I disagree strongly. The 9th pick, regardless of position, needs to be an impact player. A foundation type player. Does anyone think this guy is going to be anything more than (at best) serviceable? You know where you are content with "serviceable"? In rounds 3-5. Not 9th overall.
Yeah, well, unfortunately it doesn't work that way.
Sometimes you draft 9th overall and a guy like Tyron Smith falls into your lap, and then you have the luxury of playing him at RT for a couple of years before you move him over to the left side.
And sometimes you draft 9th overall and you pick Ereck Flowers, but due to an injury to your incumbent LT you're forced to play him on the left side, and his rookie struggles are compounded by a high-ankle sprain early on.
In real game situations, this is obviously not going to be the case. They're also not giving him any help in practice with guys like Ellison which is something we're going to see sometimes in games.
Lastly, Vernon is an excellent player and he's going to have a monster season if he's healthy. I really believe that. Flowers is not getting beat by some schlub. This is an upper-tier, two-way DE who is in his prime right now.
Flowers did some good things against PIT which I think is more important than whether he's winning or losing battles in practice.
Yes, you want to see the technique improve. You want to see him get his body lower. You want to see better lateral movement to counter speedy edge rushers. But I think there's a chance some progress is being made here and we have to give the guy a chance before we bury him. He's obviously working his ass off and doing his best. If he struggles again this year, we'll have to consider moving him. But for now, he's the LT and that's not changing any time soon.
Might as well root for him and hope he succeeds.
In real game situations, this is obviously not going to be the case. They're also not giving him any help in practice with guys like Ellison which is something we're going to see sometimes in games.
Lastly, Vernon is an excellent player and he's going to have a monster season if he's healthy. I really believe that. Flowers is not getting beat by some schlub. This is an upper-tier, two-way DE who is in his prime right now.
Flowers did some good things against PIT which I think is more important than whether he's winning or losing battles in practice.
Yes, you want to see the technique improve. You want to see him get his body lower. You want to see better lateral movement to counter speedy edge rushers. But I think there's a chance some progress is being made here and we have to give the guy a chance before we bury him. He's obviously working his ass off and doing his best. If he struggles again this year, we'll have to consider moving him. But for now, he's the LT and that's not changing any time soon.
Might as well root for him and hope he succeeds.
Excellent post. Let's give him a chance. Few players have been as closely scrutinized as Flowers. That's what happens in the NFL, especially when you're the 9th pick in the draft. But he's worked hard this off season.
The Giants does not need the OL to be great,....just better then last year. Any improvement will make a world of difference....if they are just ok to Decent...that is enough.....and what really scares me....remain healthy.
The fact that we now have Marshall, Engram, Ellison and Shane Smith.... Will help tremendously. Quicker open plays, bigger targets, middle deep a threat, improve chipping of oncoming rushers, edge containment and lead blockers....all help.
...the most critical unit on a team is the offensive line. The O-Line is a defense's best friend. The question for the 2017 edition the the New York Giants:
Is the offensive line friend or foe?
This sums it up for me. And it's how it plays out in games. All 5 guys have weaknesses and randomly misfire. Makes it difficult to sustain anything. And unless McAdoo starts doing things differently he isn't going to keep the TE in much in pass pro. In a WCO the TE is involved in the pass routes and a key read. That's the whole point of the quick game, not having to keep extra blockers in.
this is not a new issue among offensive tackles in the league and is is a technique that can be corrected in time.
Also what I see is stout run blocking LT who always is the first guy in and out of the pile.
Its a risk but the reward of Flowers developing has quite a bit of value that could def create a massive advantage
Give me a great D-Line and 2-3 great skill players and a mediocre o-line. The Patriots seem to do fine without All Pros running rampant on their O-Line.
Everyone gushes about the Dallas O-Line - what exactly have the accomplished, one playoff win.
There was only 5 or 6 plays where he engaged a rusher, and of those, a couple didn't look full-speed.
Most of the plays on this video are STILL shotgun or 3 step drop plays where the ball is coming out very quick. Thus the OL only has to hold for 2 seconds. I think I saw one 5 step drop play, and certainly no 7s or sprint-outs. No long passes. This tells me that -- at least as of the day this was shot -- the offense still isn't running plays that force the OL to protect longer. Draw your own conclusions. It may be that if they get a run game going, they can get some 5 step drop/play action going against opponents. But we're not seeing it here.
Was very nice to see a FB lined up in the formations.
I think people forget that OL's work together as a unit and that development takes time each season. And guys are going to get beat from time to time.
Now as for other oline postions? If he struggles (which is likely) next year they need to play him at RT or G to see if he is a total bust or not. As long as this organization keeps their Rose colored glasses on, they will keep him at LT and Eli will suffer.
God I hope something clicks in his head and he balls out. I SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO want to be wrong about him.
In real game situations, this is obviously not going to be the case. They're also not giving him any help in practice with guys like Ellison which is something we're going to see sometimes in games.
Lastly, Vernon is an excellent player and he's going to have a monster season if he's healthy. I really believe that. Flowers is not getting beat by some schlub. This is an upper-tier, two-way DE who is in his prime right now.
Flowers did some good things against PIT which I think is more important than whether he's winning or losing battles in practice.
Yes, you want to see the technique improve. You want to see him get his body lower. You want to see better lateral movement to counter speedy edge rushers. But I think there's a chance some progress is being made here and we have to give the guy a chance before we bury him. He's obviously working his ass off and doing his best. If he struggles again this year, we'll have to consider moving him. But for now, he's the LT and that's not changing any time soon.
Might as well root for him and hope he succeeds.
Doesn't that go both ways through. Everyone knows what everyone is doing, for the most part, don't they? I'm not an expert by an means and you and I are usually on the same wavelength, but I sort of feel like that's giving Flowers a pass.
And its not always just that Flowers gets beat, its that he looks like a JV high-schooler when it happens. If you can picture someone like Tyron Smith (or even David Diehl in his prime) in practice going against Vernon, imagine how different that would look.
Now as for other oline postions? If he struggles (which is likely) next year they need to play him at RT or G to see if he is a total bust or not. As long as this organization keeps their Rose colored glasses on, they will keep him at LT and Eli will suffer.
God I hope something clicks in his head and he balls out. I SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO want to be wrong about him.
Two year starters are not busts. Has he underwhelmed considering his draft position...Definitely. Could the Giants decline to pick up what will be an expensive 5th year option...certainly.
It's too early to call him an outright bust...especially after he had a decent outing against Pittsburgh.
And people just seem to ignore that college football rarely turns out Elite LT's anymore because many of them play in a spread offense or in a two point stance..
Oh yeah.. and Olivier Vernon one of the best pass rushers in the league who has more hurries than anyone the last 2-3 seasons gives him trouble in practice..
lets wait until the games begin.. Im more concerned about Richburg and Jerry..
Let the guy play some games before killing his 3rd season of play.
I also believe that contrary to myth you can in fact win with a sub par left tackle. Not saying Flowers will be bad or good or average but people like to romanticize David Diehl around here as if he was a star tackle. He was gritty, tough and versatile but he was also flawed at LT. Giants still won two titles.
Relax. The media marked Flowers with a bulls eye since the jump and once he had that incident with the reporter the heat on him has only gotten hotter. Every fucking practice we are putting Flowers through the mill. It's ridiculous. It's one position, not ten.
^^^^ This -- Exactly
It's also what makes Jordan Raanan's recent analysis - ridiculous...
he was using tape from the same two practices
Isn't that the same as last year's regular season offense? :)
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Stapleton makes a good point in that article that I think gets lost on a lot of people, which is that in practice, the defense already knows what the offense is doing. They generally know that they're running or passing. So they have the distinct advantage of simply attacking that play type without worrying about Eli making all types of pre-snap adjustments or protection changes.
In real game situations, this is obviously not going to be the case. They're also not giving him any help in practice with guys like Ellison which is something we're going to see sometimes in games.
Lastly, Vernon is an excellent player and he's going to have a monster season if he's healthy. I really believe that. Flowers is not getting beat by some schlub. This is an upper-tier, two-way DE who is in his prime right now.
Flowers did some good things against PIT which I think is more important than whether he's winning or losing battles in practice.
Yes, you want to see the technique improve. You want to see him get his body lower. You want to see better lateral movement to counter speedy edge rushers. But I think there's a chance some progress is being made here and we have to give the guy a chance before we bury him. He's obviously working his ass off and doing his best. If he struggles again this year, we'll have to consider moving him. But for now, he's the LT and that's not changing any time soon.
Might as well root for him and hope he succeeds.
Doesn't that go both ways through. Everyone knows what everyone is doing, for the most part, don't they? I'm not an expert by an means and you and I are usually on the same wavelength, but I sort of feel like that's giving Flowers a pass.
And its not always just that Flowers gets beat, its that he looks like a JV high-schooler when it happens. If you can picture someone like Tyron Smith (or even David Diehl in his prime) in practice going against Vernon, imagine how different that would look.
I just think it's hard to judge and there's so many elements missing from actual game situations. In a practice/drill setting, I think defensive linemen have an advantage if they know the play type and aren't really concerned with audibles or protection changes.
When you mostly remove the mental aspect, Vernon is probably going to beat Flowers 1 on 1 more often than not simply based on his ability.
In game situations, defenses are going to have to guess a little more - Eli is going to survey the looks they're showing, adjust, etc.
Maybe I am making some excuses for Flowers. I don't know. I am on record saying I definitely don't think he's meant to be a LT long-term and would thrive as OG instead or would probably even fare better @ RT. I just don't want to get crazy about practice stuff when there are a lot of factors that are missing from actual game scenarios.
I thought he held his own in the first preseason game for the most part, so I'm just going to hope it's something he can build from and get better. It's really all I can do.
I just hope Reese/Mcadoo have a plan if Flowers looks like shit the first 4-8 games.
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In comment 13564156 arcarsenal said:
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Stapleton makes a good point in that article that I think gets lost on a lot of people, which is that in practice, the defense already knows what the offense is doing. They generally know that they're running or passing. So they have the distinct advantage of simply attacking that play type without worrying about Eli making all types of pre-snap adjustments or protection changes.
In real game situations, this is obviously not going to be the case. They're also not giving him any help in practice with guys like Ellison which is something we're going to see sometimes in games.
Lastly, Vernon is an excellent player and he's going to have a monster season if he's healthy. I really believe that. Flowers is not getting beat by some schlub. This is an upper-tier, two-way DE who is in his prime right now.
Flowers did some good things against PIT which I think is more important than whether he's winning or losing battles in practice.
Yes, you want to see the technique improve. You want to see him get his body lower. You want to see better lateral movement to counter speedy edge rushers. But I think there's a chance some progress is being made here and we have to give the guy a chance before we bury him. He's obviously working his ass off and doing his best. If he struggles again this year, we'll have to consider moving him. But for now, he's the LT and that's not changing any time soon.
Might as well root for him and hope he succeeds.
Doesn't that go both ways through. Everyone knows what everyone is doing, for the most part, don't they? I'm not an expert by an means and you and I are usually on the same wavelength, but I sort of feel like that's giving Flowers a pass.
And its not always just that Flowers gets beat, its that he looks like a JV high-schooler when it happens. If you can picture someone like Tyron Smith (or even David Diehl in his prime) in practice going against Vernon, imagine how different that would look.
I just think it's hard to judge and there's so many elements missing from actual game situations. In a practice/drill setting, I think defensive linemen have an advantage if they know the play type and aren't really concerned with audibles or protection changes.
When you mostly remove the mental aspect, Vernon is probably going to beat Flowers 1 on 1 more often than not simply based on his ability.
In game situations, defenses are going to have to guess a little more - Eli is going to survey the looks they're showing, adjust, etc.
Maybe I am making some excuses for Flowers. I don't know. I am on record saying I definitely don't think he's meant to be a LT long-term and would thrive as OG instead or would probably even fare better @ RT. I just don't want to get crazy about practice stuff when there are a lot of factors that are missing from actual game scenarios.
I thought he held his own in the first preseason game for the most part, so I'm just going to hope it's something he can build from and get better. It's really all I can do.
He did play well in the preseason game and that absolutely should carry more weight than whatever happens in practice.
I believe several young players struggled at tackle for a while and eventually the light came on. Maybe this will happen for Flowers too. He is working hard. No one can question his desire.
You can't even tell anything about the offense we're going to run because of 20 or so snaps. Each day the team has a different focus in practice - red/green zone, 4 minute offense, whatever. Who knows what they were working on this particular day?
Flowers was not the problem against Pitt, and he should get plenty of snaps against Cleveland. I'll not put much/any stock into practice reports going forward.
My concern or worry is what happens if, after a couple of real games, Dallas and Detroit, he has not shown any progress and is still making the same mistakes he has made in the previous two years. What do we do if or when it becomes obvious he cannot play LT? What is our backup plan...is it moving Pugh there and putting Fluker at LG. Frankly, I am as worried about Jerry at RG as I am with Flowers at LT.
But let's see what happens first before we continue to go ape-shit on this guy. He supposedly had a good first game. Let's worry about this after Eli's first action and his play on Monday night.
Unless my memory is failing, didn't Jumbo Elliot also struggle his first few years in the NFL in 1988 and 1989 before becoming near a Pro Bowl left tackle from 1990 to 1993 seasons?
Jumbo mentioned once in an interview that a lot of his early struggles were to do about confidence in his abilities and facing off against the Giants stellar defense every day. Then in the 1990 season, the games he was healthy enough to play in, he dominated or held in check several key defensive players that season and his confidence just grew each and every week. Including having a huge game against Bruce Smith in the Superbowl.
I think we'll see a similar growth in Flowers 3rd season.
Despite being a first round pick, no one is expecting him to be an All-Pro caliber LT, or even a Pro Bowl level LT. I think it's not just fans, but even the coaches are just hoping Flowers can be consistently 'solid.'
He has continuity now in terms of his fellow OLine-mates and along the coaching staff. So, you can't really put the blame on a lack of continuity on the coaching staff or lack of continuity on the OLine itself. He also has some experience now.
Like I said, no one is expecting greatness from him, despite being a first round pick. Just be solid and don't get the QB killed. It's really not asking for much at this point in his career and considering the circumstances.
Man, I'm usually not one to criticize the Giants beat writers cause they are usually great, but this Flowers stuff is getting a little much.
Despite being a first round pick, no one is expecting him to be an All-Pro caliber LT, or even a Pro Bowl level LT. I think it's not just fans, but even the coaches are just hoping Flowers can be consistently 'solid.'
He has continuity now in terms of his fellow OLine-mates and along the coaching staff. So, you can't really put the blame on a lack of continuity on the coaching staff or lack of continuity on the OLine itself. He also has some experience now.
Like I said, no one is expecting greatness from him, despite being a first round pick. Just be solid and don't get the QB killed. It's really not asking for much at this point in his career and considering the circumstances.
I disagree strongly. The 9th pick, regardless of position, needs to be an impact player. A foundation type player. Does anyone think this guy is going to be anything more than (at best) serviceable? You know where you are content with "serviceable"? In rounds 3-5. Not 9th overall.
You're point is sound though. Some tackles take time. Most in fact do take time. Not everyone is Orlando Pace or Ogden.
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to at least be solid.
Despite being a first round pick, no one is expecting him to be an All-Pro caliber LT, or even a Pro Bowl level LT. I think it's not just fans, but even the coaches are just hoping Flowers can be consistently 'solid.'
He has continuity now in terms of his fellow OLine-mates and along the coaching staff. So, you can't really put the blame on a lack of continuity on the coaching staff or lack of continuity on the OLine itself. He also has some experience now.
Like I said, no one is expecting greatness from him, despite being a first round pick. Just be solid and don't get the QB killed. It's really not asking for much at this point in his career and considering the circumstances.
I disagree strongly. The 9th pick, regardless of position, needs to be an impact player. A foundation type player. Does anyone think this guy is going to be anything more than (at best) serviceable? You know where you are content with "serviceable"? In rounds 3-5. Not 9th overall.
I think his point is that this is where we're at now with Flowers. We're past the point of expecting a potential foundation player or elite LT. That's obviously not in the cards here. So, what we need right now is for Flowers to be serviceable because if he is, the offense should be alright.
It's just a matter of adjusting expectations. He obviously wasn't worth the 9th overall pick, but there's nothing we can do about that now. We have to hope for the best within the realm of realism.
Brad Benson wasn't the nasty left tackle who dished out beat downs to pro bowler Dexter Manley right away. He took time too.
ONe thing I am certain of, no one here or there knew how these "struggling" tackles were doing in practice. No one knew Jumbo was doing in 89 or 90. For all we know he was getting his lunch handed to him from the likes of Marshall and LT on a daily basis.
We know too much.
Jumbo is a good case to keep in mind for the more hopeful, but it's probably not going to play out the same way for EF.
Preseason Week 1
12 Pass Block Snaps
0 Sacks Allowed
0 Pressures allowed
https://www.instagram.com/p/BX8UzA0nCFb/ - ( New Window )
Preseason Week 1
12 Pass Block Snaps
0 Sacks Allowed
0 Pressures allowed https://www.instagram.com/p/BX8UzA0nCFb/ - ( New Window )
Imagine it was, say, 1995... and the internet wasn't what it was now, Twitter didn't exist, and all we really had access to were some camp updates in the local papers, etc. Sure, you'd see some reports on Flowers here and there - but nowhere near this level of scrutiny.
Then, you saw him in the first preseason game, saw him get 12 opportunities to pass block, and not allow a pressure or a sack.
What would your tune be?
Much more optimistic I'd venture to guess...
Look, we know it's highly unlikely that he makes the Pro Bowl, or even becomes an upper-echelon Left Tackle, but at this point I'll be happy if he rises above the lower-echelon to end up somewhere in the middle of the pack. Serviceable, if not spectacular.
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to at least be solid.
Despite being a first round pick, no one is expecting him to be an All-Pro caliber LT, or even a Pro Bowl level LT. I think it's not just fans, but even the coaches are just hoping Flowers can be consistently 'solid.'
He has continuity now in terms of his fellow OLine-mates and along the coaching staff. So, you can't really put the blame on a lack of continuity on the coaching staff or lack of continuity on the OLine itself. He also has some experience now.
Like I said, no one is expecting greatness from him, despite being a first round pick. Just be solid and don't get the QB killed. It's really not asking for much at this point in his career and considering the circumstances.
I disagree strongly. The 9th pick, regardless of position, needs to be an impact player. A foundation type player. Does anyone think this guy is going to be anything more than (at best) serviceable? You know where you are content with "serviceable"? In rounds 3-5. Not 9th overall.
arc understood my point. Of course you want an impact player with where Flowers was drafted. And we can all still hope for that. But there's a good chance that isn't going to happen. So, if he winds up just being solid or decent, we'll take that. That's what we need from him. If he's anything better than that, great.
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to at least be solid.
Despite being a first round pick, no one is expecting him to be an All-Pro caliber LT, or even a Pro Bowl level LT. I think it's not just fans, but even the coaches are just hoping Flowers can be consistently 'solid.'
He has continuity now in terms of his fellow OLine-mates and along the coaching staff. So, you can't really put the blame on a lack of continuity on the coaching staff or lack of continuity on the OLine itself. He also has some experience now.
Like I said, no one is expecting greatness from him, despite being a first round pick. Just be solid and don't get the QB killed. It's really not asking for much at this point in his career and considering the circumstances.
I disagree strongly. The 9th pick, regardless of position, needs to be an impact player. A foundation type player. Does anyone think this guy is going to be anything more than (at best) serviceable? You know where you are content with "serviceable"? In rounds 3-5. Not 9th overall.
Yeah, well, unfortunately it doesn't work that way.
Sometimes you draft 9th overall and a guy like Tyron Smith falls into your lap, and then you have the luxury of playing him at RT for a couple of years before you move him over to the left side.
And sometimes you draft 9th overall and you pick Ereck Flowers, but due to an injury to your incumbent LT you're forced to play him on the left side, and his rookie struggles are compounded by a high-ankle sprain early on.