NFT: Knicks Chat - Season's Expectations

And continue to stay in basketball purgatory. Is there any other possible outcome?

say roughly 30 wins, mid-level breakout from KP, Hernangomez improves to the point we are confidently penciling him in for a 20-25 minute role on a good team, Frank has ups and downs and everyone screams about him not playing more.

I heard of a Freudian slip when talking but not when typing.

it is difficult to answer that prior to knowing what the Melo trade will yield. But of course, the hope/expectation is for something like:

KP to be an all star
WH to continue to develop into a very good BIG
DD to earn minutes
THJ to be an efficient 15-17 ppg scorer and be adequate on D
FN to show some positive signs that he's worthy of the high draft spot

Re: Melo. With training camp a month away, at some point you have to figure, somebody (NYK, CM or HOU) is going to concede leverage in this game of chicken.

not CA

CM

would the Knicks be able to deal Melo to the rockets for that shitty contract (Anderson?) maybe one additional useful young player and a bunch of future first rounders?

Would you guys do Melo for Anderson, Young player and lets say 3 future firsts? Shit they can even protect them if needed.

The picks won't end up as much but 3 picks in the 20s range doesn't suck. Anderson has 3 shitty years left? Does that torpedo the building plan here?

...30-win team.

Or, is that too many?

Win total and puts us in a better position for a lower lottery pick.
The flip side is it takes the ball out of all the kids hands and slows their development.

In comment 13564334 djm said:

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would the Knicks be able to deal Melo to the rockets for that shitty contract (Anderson?) maybe one additional useful young player and a bunch of future first rounders? Would you guys do Melo for Anderson, Young player and lets say 3 future firsts? Shit they can even protect them if needed. The picks won't end up as much but 3 picks in the 20s range doesn't suck. Anderson has 3 shitty years left? Does that torpedo the building plan here?

teams were asking Houston for two firsts just to absorb Anderson's deal, so you're not completely off base. The problem is that at some point it's just not worth it for Houston to give up that much to move him in order to acquire Melo.

impossible to predict giving that the team's best player could be traded at any moment.

I think there's too many decent vets who give a fuck (Lee, Noah, KOQ, Lance) for this team to completely bottom out. Not to mention, KP could all of a sudden break out and start dominating. The upside (if you want to lose a lot) is that we might have the worst PG situation in the league right now. We have an extremely raw/young rookie, and a journeyman. There are going to be games where it gets really ugly.

In comment 13564360 Enzo said:

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In comment 13564334 djm said: Quote: would the Knicks be able to deal Melo to the rockets for that shitty contract (Anderson?) maybe one additional useful young player and a bunch of future first rounders? Would you guys do Melo for Anderson, Young player and lets say 3 future firsts? Shit they can even protect them if needed. The picks won't end up as much but 3 picks in the 20s range doesn't suck. Anderson has 3 shitty years left? Does that torpedo the building plan here? teams were asking Houston for two firsts just to absorb Anderson's deal, so you're not completely off base. The problem is that at some point it's just not worth it for Houston to give up that much to move him in order to acquire Melo.

Anderson deal is really bad and will not be easier to move in the future. Better off keeping Melo for another year and having the cap room.
Maybe move Lee for a first closer to the deadline.

and Noah playing 50, I'd guess 33-35. If Melo gets traded for significantly lesser current value and Noah is hurt, high 20s.

Player expectations are along the lines similar to Dan. Im higher on Willy than he is. I think Frank is gonna get buried unless he really breaks out, as Horny is going to be coaching for his job (I expect that he wont be the coach 83 games from now). What I'd like to see is improved defense and a more functional offense (including benching Melo as necessary to get his buy in).

if they don't get hot from 3 land. IF they get hot from 3 land 40 wins or so.

Horny will play an uptempo style and the team should at least have fun this season. They won't play much D but there's some talent there. Ill say 37 wins.

I'm looking forward to the season despite losing all faith in this franchise about 2 months ago. ONce Phil was wacked I gained a little faith but I still hate Dolan and the culture here. I am holding out hope that KP and Frank are NBA Gods in training. Once can dream. MAybe Gomez is a beast too. He can score and rebound that's for sure.

which seems a bit right.

i like willys fit because he cam hot the mid range and he is a good passer from the mid range..

i dont expect frank to have a high impact this season unless he is more ready to play than people think...

hard to tell win total until we know what the melo trade yields if any trade at all...

i expect kp to become the number 1 option, i like willy more than most i think he is a starting center, hardaway needs to improve but he showed last year when he started he can produce...

In comment 13564374 Deej said:

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and Noah playing 50, I'd guess 33-35. If Melo gets traded for significantly lesser current value and Noah is hurt, high 20s. Player expectations are along the lines similar to Dan. Im higher on Willy than he is. I think Frank is gonna get buried unless he really breaks out, as Horny is going to be coaching for his job (I expect that he wont be the coach 83 games from now). What I'd like to see is improved defense and a more functional offense (including benching Melo as necessary to get his buy in).

Not a long term indictment of Frank but I think #1 Hornacek is coaching for his job #2 Sessions was brought in to largely to help KP/Willy and I think that means he will play and #3 From what I saw from Frank, he's just not NBA ready. Doesn't mean he won't play but I find it hard to believe he's playing 30 minutes per night while the Knicks (fakely) believe they have a chance to make the playoffs. As for Willy, I just have major doubts regarding substantial defensive improvement.

can't believe Rambis is still here. Really don't understand it.

In comment 13564396 DanMetroMan said:

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can't believe Rambis is still here. Really don't understand it.

I think the main reason is, hornacek doesnt want it to look like he was forced to hire rambis because he made the comments that he wanted rambis...

i think no matter what happens this year hornacek is fired for blatt...

In comment 13564400 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 13564396 DanMetroMan said: Quote: can't believe Rambis is still here. Really don't understand it. I think the main reason is, hornacek doesnt want it to look like he was forced to hire rambis because he made the comments that he wanted rambis... i think no matter what happens this year hornacek is fired for blatt...

Would it really be a major story? I find it hard to believe. Perry could fall on the sword for that one if it were such an issue.

We passed up a lot of big names who might have instant success. Most will expect something quick from the kid. If he struggles, I fear the Boo birds will be out in a hurry and kill his psychie. I think it will be a rough season with a 25-57 record not out of the question.

In comment 13564403 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13564400 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 13564396 DanMetroMan said: Quote: can't believe Rambis is still here. Really don't understand it. I think the main reason is, hornacek doesnt want it to look like he was forced to hire rambis because he made the comments that he wanted rambis... i think no matter what happens this year hornacek is fired for blatt... Would it really be a major story? I find it hard to believe. Perry could fall on the sword for that one if it were such an issue.

to me and you it wouldnt be, but you know the ny media would..

In comment 13564415 Carl in CT said:

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We passed up a lot of big names who might have instant success. Most will expect something quick from the kid. If he struggles, I fear the Boo birds will be out in a hurry and kill his psychie. I think it will be a rough season with a 25-57 record not out of the question.

angone who boos him or expects quick success are morons...

and if they win 25 games going with young guys that is a good thing, different qinning 25 games with young players and vet players...

who gives a shit about instant success

man, I wish my team ....NYK :( could score nice under the radar like this.

that Frank is less likely to contribute than most rookies. He played with men overseas. He is working as hard or harder than any of the other rookies. Why can't he contribute? I get that he's only 19 but a 20 year old rookie who played with kids in college is more likely to contribute than Frank? Ain't buying it.

Not saying Frank will play 35 min a night and lead the team as a rookie but he can contribute. Why not.

Frank develop into a Khris Middleton type player and if he has some lead guard or facilitating ability to go with the defense/shooting, all the better.

In comment 13564562 djm said:

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that Frank is less likely to contribute than most rookies. He played with men overseas. He is working as hard or harder than any of the other rookies. Why can't he contribute? I get that he's only 19 but a 20 year old rookie who played with kids in college is more likely to contribute than Frank? Ain't buying it. Not saying Frank will play 35 min a night and lead the team as a rookie but he can contribute. Why not.

He was playing in the #7 league in the world and had a very high foul rate and turnover rate. His own teammate Louis Labeyrie acknowledged he's not NBA ready physically (while praising him so it wasn't a hit job). He's beyond some of the other top picks in terms of being ready for a major role. Phil Jackson himself (aka his biggest fan) called him a project that will take some time. His wingspan (while a potential difference maker) won't be as usable when he can be bodied etc.

see this posted

Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @wojespn 17h17 hours ago
More
Wisconsin's Nigel Hayes has agreed to a partially guaranteed deal with the Knicks, league source tells ESPN.

This team is perhaps a lifetime away from contending for a title.

Ian Begley‏
@IanBegley
Following
More
Knicks have reached an agreement with Pittsburgh's Jamel Artis, league sources tell ESPN. Artis impressed the club during Summer League.

Suns and Cavs had a verbal deal before the draft. #4 and Bledsoe for Kyrie. Cavs backed out when Lebron wouldnt commit to remaining with the Cavs "long term"

In comment 13564836 DanMetroMan said:

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Suns and Cavs had a verbal deal before the draft. #4 and Bledsoe for Kyrie. Cavs backed out when Lebron wouldnt commit to remaining with the Cavs "long term"

If that's true, then maybe it's time to ask Lebron if he would like to be elsewhere, because it sure seems like he doesn't want to finish his career in Cleveland.

In comment 13564709 DanMetroMan said:

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see this posted Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @wojespn 17h17 hours ago More Wisconsin's Nigel Hayes has agreed to a partially guaranteed deal with the Knicks, league source tells ESPN.

We only want what's best for him.

In comment 13564836 DanMetroMan said:

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Suns and Cavs had a verbal deal before the draft. #4 and Bledsoe for Kyrie. Cavs backed out when Lebron wouldnt commit to remaining with the Cavs "long term"

Which is why the color has been "young stud" and focus on the guys outside of the top 2 in this last draft- Jackson and Tatum in particular- which woj also caught onto in his article the other day

In comment 13564390 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13564374 Deej said: Quote: and Noah playing 50, I'd guess 33-35. If Melo gets traded for significantly lesser current value and Noah is hurt, high 20s. Player expectations are along the lines similar to Dan. Im higher on Willy than he is. I think Frank is gonna get buried unless he really breaks out, as Horny is going to be coaching for his job (I expect that he wont be the coach 83 games from now). What I'd like to see is improved defense and a more functional offense (including benching Melo as necessary to get his buy in). Not a long term indictment of Frank but I think #1 Hornacek is coaching for his job #2 Sessions was brought in to largely to help KP/Willy and I think that means he will play and #3 From what I saw from Frank, he's just not NBA ready. Doesn't mean he won't play but I find it hard to believe he's playing 30 minutes per night while the Knicks (fakely) believe they have a chance to make the playoffs. As for Willy, I just have major doubts regarding substantial defensive improvement.

Why do you say Hornacek is coaching for his job? If they view it as a rebuild, why would they keep a coach they don't view as the long term option?

In comment 13564968 hitdog42 said:

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In comment 13564836 DanMetroMan said: Quote: Suns and Cavs had a verbal deal before the draft. #4 and Bledsoe for Kyrie. Cavs backed out when Lebron wouldnt commit to remaining with the Cavs "long term" Which is why the color has been "young stud" and focus on the guys outside of the top 2 in this last draft- Jackson and Tatum in particular- which woj also caught onto in his article the other day

It's really fascinating what the Warriors have done to the league. In years past, I would think that Kyrie would be coveted by many teams that were willing to give up younger studs just so they could be competitive right now. Now teams are looking to keep their young players in an effort to build for the future since nobody thinks they can beat the Warriors.

I don't remember the league acting this way when the MJ/Bulls were unbeatable. But that was a long time ago and I may not be remembering accurately.

In comment 13564836 DanMetroMan said:

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Suns and Cavs had a verbal deal before the draft. #4 and Bledsoe for Kyrie. Cavs backed out when Lebron wouldnt commit to remaining with the Cavs "long term"

Why would they back out even if lebron said he wouldn't commit long term? Isn't that a good deal for the long term? They would be getting back two long term pieces and could even compete with lebron in the short term.

I think everyone is full of crap with this Irving trade talk lol.

Because the pick was then headed to Indiana for George. The Cavs would be left with "nothing" in a year. No lebron, Irving or George. Love and Bledsoe as your core. Yuck

In comment 13564969 adamg said:

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In comment 13564390 DanMetroMan said: Quote: In comment 13564374 Deej said: Quote: and Noah playing 50, I'd guess 33-35. If Melo gets traded for significantly lesser current value and Noah is hurt, high 20s. Player expectations are along the lines similar to Dan. Im higher on Willy than he is. I think Frank is gonna get buried unless he really breaks out, as Horny is going to be coaching for his job (I expect that he wont be the coach 83 games from now). What I'd like to see is improved defense and a more functional offense (including benching Melo as necessary to get his buy in). Not a long term indictment of Frank but I think #1 Hornacek is coaching for his job #2 Sessions was brought in to largely to help KP/Willy and I think that means he will play and #3 From what I saw from Frank, he's just not NBA ready. Doesn't mean he won't play but I find it hard to believe he's playing 30 minutes per night while the Knicks (fakely) believe they have a chance to make the playoffs. As for Willy, I just have major doubts regarding substantial defensive improvement. Why do you say Hornacek is coaching for his job? If they view it as a rebuild, why would they keep a coach they don't view as the long term option?

The coach was picked by a GM who is no longer here. He absolutely is "coaching for his job". Perry has zero ties to him. If the Knicks don't play better, players develop etc. Hornacek will be shown the door. It's not all about wins and losses.

Frenchie, Dotson and Artes are intriguing wing additions. Of course, Hardaway, Lee and maybe Melo will take all their minutes, but I digress.

Knock on Hornacek but we don't even know if he's a good coach or not. He's in a tough spot but he's not some proven winner. I'd say no greater than 50/50 he's back after the season.

In comment 13565013 bceagle05 said:

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Frenchie, Dotson and Artes are intriguing wing additions. Of course, Hardaway, Lee and maybe Melo will take all their minutes, but I digress.

Artis stood on in SL. Hayes did not. Not that SL means much

In comment 13565008 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13564969 adamg said: Quote: In comment 13564390 DanMetroMan said: Quote: In comment 13564374 Deej said: Quote: and Noah playing 50, I'd guess 33-35. If Melo gets traded for significantly lesser current value and Noah is hurt, high 20s. Player expectations are along the lines similar to Dan. Im higher on Willy than he is. I think Frank is gonna get buried unless he really breaks out, as Horny is going to be coaching for his job (I expect that he wont be the coach 83 games from now). What I'd like to see is improved defense and a more functional offense (including benching Melo as necessary to get his buy in). Not a long term indictment of Frank but I think #1 Hornacek is coaching for his job #2 Sessions was brought in to largely to help KP/Willy and I think that means he will play and #3 From what I saw from Frank, he's just not NBA ready. Doesn't mean he won't play but I find it hard to believe he's playing 30 minutes per night while the Knicks (fakely) believe they have a chance to make the playoffs. As for Willy, I just have major doubts regarding substantial defensive improvement. Why do you say Hornacek is coaching for his job? If they view it as a rebuild, why would they keep a coach they don't view as the long term option? The coach was picked by a GM who is no longer here. He absolutely is "coaching for his job". Perry has zero ties to him. If the Knicks don't play better, players develop etc. Hornacek will be shown the door. It's not all about wins and losses.

Got you. I figured you were talking W/L mostly. Player development would seem paramount these next couple of years.

In comment 13565007 DanMetroMan said:

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Because the pick was then headed to Indiana for George. The Cavs would be left with "nothing" in a year. No lebron, Irving or George. Love and Bledsoe as your core. Yuck

Ah I didn't see that part. Now it makes sense. Thanks.

In comment 13564438 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 13564415 Carl in CT said: Quote: We passed up a lot of big names who might have instant success. Most will expect something quick from the kid. If he struggles, I fear the Boo birds will be out in a hurry and kill his psychie. I think it will be a rough season with a 25-57 record not out of the question. angone who boos him or expects quick success are morons... and if they win 25 games going with young guys that is a good thing, different qinning 25 games with young players and vet players... who gives a shit about instant success

See, I don't understand this. I get being patient and giving Frank a chance to develop. But we know Frank was drafted because Jackson doesn't want ball stoppers. That's it. Not because he has more untapped potential.

For us Knicks fans Frank will always be linked to the 3 other guards picked after him. I don't understand the angst to protect him from criticism when, or should I say if, the other 3 perform better now and long term. I don't know about you, but I am quite comfortable pointing out the Knicks' incompetence.

Let's wait for Gmen46 to chime in.

Frank has to play, 20 min a game, I don't think being physically mature is as big of a deal in the NBA as in the NFL, especially at his position. Giving him experience as part of the tanking is not something I would mind.

Why does it matter if he starts slow next year and it takes a year to develop? if smith wins rookie of the year does that automatically mean frank was a bad pick?

I would love for him to play 20 to 25 mins a night next year but i am not going to kill the knicks if he doesnt..

he is going to take longer to develop because he played off the ball for much of his career overseas, it is going to be a big adjustment for him next year...

so yeah i think it would be moronic if fans boo him next year, in 3 years if he still sucks? yes kill him but but anyone expecting him to contend for rookie of the year will be very dissapointed

He would of been taken 9th if the knicks took smith or monk, the mavs hired his head coach to coach summer leage and then when they drafted smith fired him before summer league...

so stop acting like the knicks reached for him because of phils obsession with the triangle