Sullivan: We're going only as far as O-line takes us

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But DUH!

This may not be the best way for me to phrase it but it seems like McAdoo has been treating the OL with kid gloves. Every time someone asks a question about the OL McAdoo would respond with something like they have done a lot of good things but everybody needs to play better. Eli has been criticized. Perkins has been criticized. Beckham has been criticized. The TEs were kind of handled with kid gloves last year too. I am perfectly fine with McAdoo sticking up for his players but how many years of substandard OL play is too much? The OL has taken a beating by the fans amd the media. Nobody wants to see them fail but the production is 100% unacceptable.

Pugh has talked for the last couple of years about needing to play better as a group. Richburg has called out a teammate or two. He also gave a negative comment about the old OL coach in an interview. They know they need to play better. We know they need to play better. The media knows they have to play better. I am sure the coaching staff knows too.

Like I said, I am fine with the coaching staff protecting his players but there has to be a line. Parcells knew how to motivate players whether it was putting an anchor in the lockeroom for all teammates to see or using the media. Belichick is hardest on Brady so that all his teammate know if Brady isn't safe than nobody is. There is a time and place amd if not this year then when? Finally, if he is worried about their mental makeup then that is a big concern. Look no further than Coughlin. One of his biggest characteristics for his teams were to be mentally tough.

I just pray that this OL can pull it together. I am not asking for our 2008 OL. They had to block for 4+ seconds based on the offense we ran. We just need them to block for ~3 seconds.

maybe it was Dottino, but he suggested McAdoo going hard at Flowers it's kind of pointless since there's no one to threaten his job. Gotta give confidence and see how it goes which makes sense and can be applied in any profession.

It starts with richburgh in my opinion- the key for forming a pocket to step up to and also avoiding negative run plays.

With the same crew (plus a few nondescript imports like disappointing former first round flame out DJ Fluker), the same fate seemingly awaits the 2017 team. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing while expecting different results.

In comment 13565138 UConn4523 said:

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maybe it was Dottino, but he suggested McAdoo going hard at Flowers it's kind of pointless since there's no one to threaten his job. Gotta give confidence and see how it goes which makes sense and can be applied in any profession.

I have been saying that the last 2 years. Flowers has never had competition. I don't care if it is Pugh. Competition breeds success. Let Pugh gets reps out there and whoever else at LG. Maybe even Flowers at guard.

Is it ideal? Who knows? Still, as a coach I would always be thinking of contingency plans. This has to be done during camp when you have time. As a coach you have to have a plan for every situation. What is the plan if Flowers gets hurt let alone underperform?

Also, coaches love to have flexibility especially among their OL because you only have maybe 7 dress on gameday. I am not saying for Pugh to get the majority of reps at LT but everybody needs to know that if you don't perform that you could be on the bench.

So, I understand what Dottino is saying. However, if I have a job and I am not performing my job having a boss that doesn't put pressure on me is not going to get the best out of me. It just tells me that my boss's hands are tied and I can basically do what I want and still have a job. I am not saying Flowers is lazy but it is totally different having some external force motivate you. Flowers has never had that. He seems to have the internal motivation. I am not questioning that at all.

I think we have a savior in the house. I think Smith is going to be a difference maker. Why not put him and Ellison on the field with at the same time, you still have threats at WR and I bet the blocking gets better. Veeren running in back of Smith is your other receiver anyway.
I saw Carson take over for Kelly at MLB'er and it was magic, the defensive lineman (I'm not kidding) put on two inches and looked stronger and faster. I think Smith and Ellison will make everyone bigger and stronger too.

In comment 13565139 hitdog42 said:

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It starts with richburgh in my opinion- the key for forming a pocket to step up to and also avoiding negative run plays.

^^^^ This

a good majority of us were convinced that the inside of the Giants line would be pretty good last year -- the combination of Pugh, RIchburgh and Jerry was better than adequate -- but it didn't turn out that way -- It's almost more important that these three start the ball rolling up front than the two tackles improve -- which to my eye - they are -- Richburgh is the key to the middle three -- he must step up this season and become the leader of the push that puts the opposition off the line and opens some holes for the running game -- without him it's not going to happen

I think with a full back and blocking TE, coupled with any improvement from the offensive line, will make enough difference in the offense to take us deep into the playoffs.

it looks like the TE's and FB(if we keep one), will be keys to this OL playing better.....the TE's have to be able to help the Tackles with a chip block, here and there...

Want to talk about a guy who looks night and day different from last year? The guy was about as big a liability at LT as Flowers. Where Flowers lost weight, Fant added 25 pounds in the weight room this spring. I know many will say it's just one series, but he looked dominant vs an elite DL (Minnesota) on the first drive of the game. It goes deeper than that tho: unlike Flowers, Fant has had a very positive summer. Good play on the practice field has translated to gameday. With Flowers, it's a good day then 2 iffy (or bad) days. And this was an undrafted kid who switched positions; the very definition of project.

we're fucked. Reese didn't build this team thinking we're only going as far as the line will take us. Because it simply isn't a very good unit.

All we need is the line to be average. I'm just not sure this line can even be that

In comment 13565190 The_Boss said:

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Want to talk about a guy who looks night and day different from last year? The guy was about as big a liability at LT as Flowers. Where Flowers lost weight, Fant added 25 pounds in the weight room this spring. I know many will say it's just one series, but he looked dominant vs an elite DL (Minnesota) on the first drive of the game. It goes deeper than that tho: unlike Flowers, Fant has had a very positive summer. Good play on the practice field has translated to gameday. With Flowers, it's a good day then 2 iffy (or bad) days. And this was an undrafted kid who switched positions; the very definition of project.

Fant, as great as he's looked, just got rolled on by a fellow OL and needed an air cast for his lower leg.

Except look at the things each available lineman does best. (And have players swap)

* Flowers is a bull playing a finesse/strength type position - He belongs at right tackle.

*. Pugh has David Diehl type tackle ability - He's good enough to play a decent left tackle

*. Richburg is a Shaun O'Hara type center; he's just good enough, that's all

* Jerry, despite being a big man doesn't play like it; he a "dancing bear" type, good feet and surprisingly fast; he belongs at left (pulling) guard

*. Hart, I've seen him play right guard; he's actually a very good one

In comment 13565143 robbieballs2003 said:

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In comment 13565138 UConn4523 said: Quote: maybe it was Dottino, but he suggested McAdoo going hard at Flowers it's kind of pointless since there's no one to threaten his job. Gotta give confidence and see how it goes which makes sense and can be applied in any profession. I have been saying that the last 2 years. Flowers has never had competition. I don't care if it is Pugh. Competition breeds success. Let Pugh gets reps out there and whoever else at LG. Maybe even Flowers at guard. Is it ideal? Who knows? Still, as a coach I would always be thinking of contingency plans. This has to be done during camp when you have time. As a coach you have to have a plan for every situation. What is the plan if Flowers gets hurt let alone underperform? Also, coaches love to have flexibility especially among their OL because you only have maybe 7 dress on gameday. I am not saying for Pugh to get the majority of reps at LT but everybody needs to know that if you don't perform that you could be on the bench. So, I understand what Dottino is saying. However, if I have a job and I am not performing my job having a boss that doesn't put pressure on me is not going to get the best out of me. It just tells me that my boss's hands are tied and I can basically do what I want and still have a job. I am not saying Flowers is lazy but it is totally different having some external force motivate you. Flowers has never had that. He seems to have the internal motivation. I am not questioning that at all.

I think that's all well and good, but OLT is a lot like QB - there aren't enough good ones for every team to have one, what are the chances that a team would have enough to foster competition?

I'd be all for bringing in someone to light a fire under Flowers' feet, but if you're not committing serious money to a possible starter, how do you do that?

If a legit body wasn't brought in. This isn't just for poor play. What is plan B if Flowers goes down?

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Except look at the things each available lineman does best. (And have players swap) * Flowers is a bull playing a finesse/strength type position - He belongs at right tackle. *. Pugh has David Diehl type tackle ability - He's good enough to play a decent left tackle *. Richburg is a Shaun O'Hara type center; he's just good enough, that's all * Jerry, despite being a big man doesn't play like it; he a "dancing bear" type, good feet and surprisingly fast; he belongs at left (pulling) guard *. Hart, I've seen him play right guard; he's actually a very good one

so Pugh-Jerry-Richburg-Hart-Flowers. We just need to switch 4 guys - LOL.

One thing becoming clear is the Pugh move to LG should have been called off once Beatty went down. He should have stayed at RT or perhaps moved to LT with the rookie getting RT as originally planned. Then we could have the line you want. Have to believe it would be better than what we have now.

I don't know how many times I've said this before.. They are just getting it now? smh..

In comment 13565190 The_Boss said:

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Want to talk about a guy who looks night and day different from last year? The guy was about as big a liability at LT as Flowers. Where Flowers lost weight, Fant added 25 pounds in the weight room this spring. I know many will say it's just one series, but he looked dominant vs an elite DL (Minnesota) on the first drive of the game. It goes deeper than that tho: unlike Flowers, Fant has had a very positive summer. Good play on the practice field has translated to gameday. With Flowers, it's a good day then 2 iffy (or bad) days. And this was an undrafted kid who switched positions; the very definition of project.

They were both unforgivably godawful last year. And yes it's just one series. It's the height of ridiculousness to do anything with one series of play.

Was fine in the first preseason game. But ok. Continue to panic.

Sullivan's right.

.

In comment 13565139 hitdog42 said:

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It starts with richburgh in my opinion- the key for forming a pocket to step up to and also avoiding negative run plays.

I couldn't agree more. Who knows how much of the broken hand excuse is true and contributed to his poor play last year but there's some reason to at least be a bit optimistic.

The line has to be better (barring, of course, serious injuries.
There are about ten serious factors pushing this line to better and if only half of them work out.....!! I know the schedule was weak but the fact is last year's line (that had to be much worse than this year's edition was good enough to take us to 11-5. And we didn't lose the playoff game because of the line. It took Cromarite and JPP going out, some dropped passes, and two unreal plays by Rogers.
TEN REASONS TO COME IN FROM THE LEDGE
1. tHE off season that Hart and Flowers put in. That would help with seasoned vets, it has to make them better
2. Two years with Solari
3. Richenberg injury
4. Ellison
5. Smith (this is going to be changing)
6. Vereen (will slow the rush)
7. The age of our tackles
8. Evan E. (put this guy in a pattern and it will take away the blitz, pull a linebacker away and Eli gets the ball to Evan and it's touchdown not first down
9. Maturation of Shep
10. A tall Hall of famer and someone Eli can heave to with a large catch radius and the abiltiy to go high ...much like Plax. Mr. Marshall is a serious upgrade from Cruz...and as much as the size helps Eli. can't blitz.
Compromise or eliminate half of those reasons and we're still in much better shape.
Frankly, it's not our line so much as the competition in the Division this year.
Seriously good teams: Falcons, Panthers , James Winston and M. Evans, Howard, Olson, D. Jackson...WOW, Green Bay, Cardinals, Seattle and one surprise between The Lions and Vikings...That's without counting our division where all three of the villains are scary.

In comment 13565374 grizz299 said:

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The line has to be better (barring, of course, serious injuries. There are about ten serious factors pushing this line to better and if only half of them work out.....!! I know the schedule was weak but the fact is last year's line (that had to be much worse than this year's edition was good enough to take us to 11-5. And we didn't lose the playoff game because of the line. It took Cromarite and JPP going out, some dropped passes, and two unreal plays by Rogers. TEN REASONS TO COME IN FROM THE LEDGE 1. tHE off season that Hart and Flowers put in. That would help with seasoned vets, it has to make them better 2. Two years with Solari 3. Richenberg injury 4. Ellison 5. Smith (this is going to be changing) 6. Vereen (will slow the rush) 7. The age of our tackles 8. Evan E. (put this guy in a pattern and it will take away the blitz, pull a linebacker away and Eli gets the ball to Evan and it's touchdown not first down 9. Maturation of Shep 10. A tall Hall of famer and someone Eli can heave to with a large catch radius and the abiltiy to go high ...much like Plax. Mr. Marshall is a serious upgrade from Cruz...and as much as the size helps Eli. can't blitz.

10 reasons whereas only the first one has anything to do with actually players on the O-line doing something to get better.

Their better when they start showing they are better during the game. Many here think Flowers looked okay in the Pitt game, but then I guess everybody else didn't because I didn't see any push or running lanes, and often saw the QB on his ass.

Aug 19th and counting...

we have no idea what the OL can do until we see it play more than just a series or two....and with all the #1's....

Let's face it, protecting for Eli is a lot different than protecting for Johnson.....

It's too late to be shuffling positions in the line now....continuity and each man knowing what the the guy to the left and right of them is doing, is imperative.....

Early success is important to the confidence of this line....let's hope they get off on the right foot....

With the o lines talents? No one seems to discuss that much and I am not savvy enough to even hazard a guess. I suppose on the plus line the o line has been together for two years which should hel

really want to see evidence of this in preseason, otherwise another season in which go in with an ineffective oline. I tend to think even in preseason we should see fundamental physical evidence that 1:1 match-ups are being won. Typical Reese gambling with the oline again.

In comment 13565392 plato said:

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With the o lines talents? No one seems to discuss that much and I am not savvy enough to even hazard a guess. I suppose on the plus line the o line has been together for two years which should hel

too many OL coaches against the same failed draft and vet selection for oline. Reese overspends on specialty positions.

Are on the team to ensure even if the OL is better they can scheme around it more. Smith makes the roster. LaCosse will be on the PS. Smith is a must. Ellison protects both young tackes so much more than anyone from last year. Adams is better. That's the plan and was when Reese and the FO didn't love any of the Tackes more than Engram.

Way too early to panic. The panic should be more of the paper thin depth. Jones Gettis. Fluker seems to be a guy who just can adjust to pro speed. As a back up he may be ok. He's still learning the O and his teammates but injuries on he OL could totally destroy this year. The back ups at T are Pugh and Fluker. One pretty much failed there and moving Pugh hurts cohesiveness of an already suspect group

Very interested to see how Ramczyk and Robinson do. Both thrown in like Flowers was this year. Engram will be a star but it's good for thought. No a slam on Engram or his choice

Duh.

Giants are just going forward knowing they are weak at the O line and hoping they are better this year. Thats what it is. They didnt feel the need to take a now starting LT in Larimy Tunsil, because of a bong mask video when he was a sophomore. They thought Flowers would improve from his rookie season to his second. He regressed. There were no FAs the Giants thought were worth targeting (for the $ they were commanding) this off season and this rookie class was thin on O linemen, so they passed in both cases. They had their heart set on getting Ellison and then drafting Engram, and it looks to be a great plan, but like the thread title says: They're only going as far as their O line takes them. Perhaps they said, that same bad o line took us to the playoffs last year, they have to at least be a little bit better this year. Kinda dangerous thinking. Hopefully they can keep this band together (Marshall will be gone after 2 years) long enough for the line get legit players all the way across, and oh yea, also keep the defense together. Hopefully it has taken Reese 10 years to get this GM thing down and he will be replacing talent with equal talent and on and on. But this year will be good, barring a dismal performance by the O line, which could happen.

To various degrees. A wholesale swap maybe way off the scale, but at least securing blind-side protection for Eli remains the #1 priority, that's where moving Pugh to LT is the best of several mediocre options.

I do agree, Smith (at fullback)and Ellison as a good in-line blocking TE is going to help a lot.

sometimes it feels akin to watching paint dry. Let's see
what happens when the games really begin.
I don't need a daily practice report on Flowers for example,
or Bobby Hart, etc....Wait until the opening bell for me.

What were Reese's options this year. There were NO upgrades in free agency (there were going to get) and the draft was pathetically weak for OL this year. The time to try to upgrade was before LAST year. This year adding peripheral help TE blocking FB were better ways to try to improve things. Money doesn't grow on trees and neither does snap your fingers and magically fix the line.

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I am perfectly fine with McAdoo sticking up for his players but how many years of substandard OL play is too much? The OL has taken a beating by the fans amd the media. Nobody wants to see them fail but the production is 100% unacceptable.

Seems as though this should be directed as much or more vs. Reese than Mac. I don't think Mac shies away from Parcellsian motivation and caustic comments when warranted, so for whatever reasons--OL temperament/psyche, lack of options, he's seeing progress not yet visible to us fans--he has yet to do that.

for years. It has cost ELI and this team tremendously with the poor drafting and bad FA expenditures to cover them up. Blame management for not fixing it by now. But it is a family business so thats that.

In comment 13565522 ColHowPepper said:

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Quote: I am perfectly fine with McAdoo sticking up for his players but how many years of substandard OL play is too much? The OL has taken a beating by the fans amd the media. Nobody wants to see them fail but the production is 100% unacceptable. Seems as though this should be directed as much or more vs. Reese than Mac. I don't think Mac shies away from Parcellsian motivation and caustic comments when warranted, so for whatever reasons--OL temperament/psyche, lack of options, he's seeing progress not yet visible to us fans--he has yet to do that.

This. Flowers isn't the pick of the OL wasn't paper thin. Reese has killed it just about everywhere else in the draft and FA. Even if it all gels and the OL takes a big step up Pugh and Richberg may be gone. Jerry is just so average the depth issue has to be a concern for Mac. W OBJ and Collins due w huge deals as well as Pugh and Richberg up even if the draft is pretty bare like last years for thebOL they have no choice but to go that way heavy.

On the same line providing different (better) results. That was their professional determination. The ability is there. They simply have to refine it. Sullivan's comment adds nothing to the conversation. It's a striking glimpse of the obvious .

Gulp NOT! Maybe adequate.

We have had running things for years so stupid is he that he goes into every season blind with no O line. The only human I feel bad for in the whole organization is Eli. He doesn't deserve this .

In comment 13565605 Blue Moon said:

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We have had running things for years so stupid is he that he goes into every season blind with no O line. The only human I feel bad for in the whole organization is Eli. He doesn't deserve this .

laughably bad view on the subject but okay.

First, I do believe that Flowers (year 3, age 23); Pugh (just stay healthy); Richburg (stay healthy); Jerry (pass protector, maybe Fluker handles 3rd and short, goal line when timeout is called for run game?); and, Hart (year 3, age 23); if they stay healthy we should be improved. I just have to believe that this is a fairly young unit that will come together as a group. I'm a fan so I can dream, right?

We also should have better TE blocking with R. Ellison and that helps.

We just need a RB to step up and take charge. I still believe Perkins will be the man but only time will tell.

hard to believe a guy with his size, strength, work ethic, and desire to improve will not do just that. Now somebody has to figures out how to develop those qualities. Think we are committed to give this our best shot and we should. Rooting for him and us.

In comment 13566003 TMS said:

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hard to believe a guy with his size, strength, work ethic, and desire to improve will not do just that. Now somebody has to figures out how to develop those qualities. Think we are committed to give this our best shot and we should. Rooting for him and us.

There are those that question Flower's desire, and whether he wants it or not, based on his body language - and this not just a small amount of those who watch him on a regular basis

He really is an enigma - because he has noticeably improved in a bunch of areas and has put work into slimming down, footwork, hand placement, punch, body position -- but he appears to be really disinterested quite a bit of the time

In comment 13566028 gidiefor said:

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In comment 13566003 TMS said: Quote: hard to believe a guy with his size, strength, work ethic, and desire to improve will not do just that. Now somebody has to figures out how to develop those qualities. Think we are committed to give this our best shot and we should. Rooting for him and us. There are those that question Flower's desire, and whether he wants it or not, based on his body language - and this not just a small amount of those who watch him on a regular basis He really is an enigma - because he has noticeably improved in a bunch of areas and has put work into slimming down, footwork, hand placement, punch, body position -- but he appears to be really disinterested quite a bit of the time

We will KNOW, as fans, what the Giants already know: Flowers maybe doesn't want it as "bad" as a true hard-nosed football loving player does. We have all sorts of types in football, high hearts & low hearts; high physical talent but low IQ or Desire quotient.

In a nutshell, if Flowers was bottom 20% last year and Hart too, if they can get to 50% (middle of the pack) we are a much better team, especially due to Ellison's help. I truly believe the youth will improve; the continuity will help; and, the knowledge of the system also will make for less thinking and more attacking.

The Giants offense should fall in the 10 - 15 range in most areas IF the OL performs. It could be in the 6 - 12 range if the OL really performas.