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What do you recommend for the OL?

SFGFNCGiantsFan : 8/21/2017 9:59 pm
The OL sucked last year & it hasn't looked much better this preseason. Do you move guys around? Do you make a trade? Do you promote someone like Fluker & see what he can do? This offense has some serious skill players, but that doesn't mean jack if Eli has like two seconds to get rid of the ball/Perkins can't find a hole.

Really frustrating to see the OL continuing to struggle. Dallas is less than 3 weeks away.
eh you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas  
Torrag : 8/21/2017 10:08 pm : link
The talent isn't good enough. They knew this going into the offseason. While I agree it was an awful O-line draft class and I wanted no part of that group with our 1st round pick you'd think they could have done better than a retread like Fluker as the big 'add' to the group.

If these guys derail our season we have no one to blame but the braintrust and that starts with JR.

Nothing we can do about it now but hope or better yet pray they somehow put this thing together and play better than the sum of the parts. 'Cuz the parts ain't good enough individually.
nothing can do..too late in game now  
micky : 8/21/2017 10:10 pm : link
unfortunately if this holds up during the season and are the clear reason for miss playoffs or etc..the gm and coaches are going to take the hit.
Dump all 5 of them.  
Renton : 8/21/2017 10:10 pm : link
Go to the local high school and take their starting 5. No way can it be worse than the pukes they have now.
I'd preach..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2017 10:11 pm : link
patience, but that would require people who have been sharpening pitchforks for months to put the damn things down....
.  
Danny Kanell : 8/21/2017 10:11 pm : link
Pray someone decent gets cut elsewhere.
Their  
Reb8thVA : 8/21/2017 10:11 pm : link
Execution!
RE: I'd preach..  
Danny Kanell : 8/21/2017 10:11 pm : link
In comment 13567903 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
patience, but that would require people who have been sharpening pitchforks for months to put the damn things down....


To be fair, we've seen this exact unit play like this for a very long time.
Hope Eli still improbably has one more year like 2011 in him and can  
Devon : 8/21/2017 10:13 pm : link
succeed entirely in spite of them and how limited the run game will likely be (largely because of them).

There's no feasible actual fix at this point.
But because..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2017 10:14 pm : link
we've seen them play poorly in teh past, the expectation is they will continue to.

Hell, people were killing Flowers tonight and he's played decently. Now they are making the excuse that he's only marginal because he holds people. Yet when the opposition does it to JPP and Vernon, it's just crafty technique.
If the line plays like this  
MookGiants : 8/21/2017 10:14 pm : link
all year, and based on the past couple years there is no rrewson to believe it wont, it should gost Reese his job. Yes hes done a good job elsewhere but having an entire unit this bad this long should get him fired
Sorry  
MookGiants : 8/21/2017 10:15 pm : link
for typos on my phone and in a hurry
.  
arcarsenal : 8/21/2017 10:15 pm : link
Well, right now, we just need to be patient.

We're not going to start moving guys around or playing other guys just yet.

I do think Fluker deserves a look. If Hart keeps struggling, maybe Wheeler gets a shot. If things get really bad, they could try moving Pugh back to RT. I don't know if Jerry has experience playing LG off the top of my head.. but things would have to be really, really bad for changes that drastic and I still am not sure they'd ever do something that radical anyway.
Too late now  
Marty866b : 8/21/2017 10:17 pm : link
But I would get new scouts who scout college offensive lineman. Richburg and Flowers,yuk!
They made their bed and now they must sleep in it  
The_Boss : 8/21/2017 10:17 pm : link
It's obvious this current group isn't good enough to harbor much hope. We have all the evidence we need. They've been playing like shit since they opened camp last July. It has continued into year 2. No quality OL will be traded for nor will the answer be found in the trash heap that is the waiver wire. We are going to have to hope our defense is the best in football and we win enough 14-10 games to qualify for the post season.
RE: But because..  
Danny Kanell : 8/21/2017 10:17 pm : link
In comment 13567917 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
we've seen them play poorly in teh past, the expectation is they will continue to.

Hell, people were killing Flowers tonight and he's played decently. Now they are making the excuse that he's only marginal because he holds people. Yet when the opposition does it to JPP and Vernon, it's just crafty technique.


Feel free to preach patience. Anyone who is looking at this line realistically and without bias, especially given the track record, knows it isn't very good. Can they surprise us? Sure. I hope they do obviously. But I'm not trying to kid myself. They're not very good. Haven't been for a while now.
Execution!  
David B. : 8/21/2017 10:18 pm : link
Preferably by firing squad.

There's not a guy on this line who's "very good." At least at the moment.

And as they CANNOT run, I think its time to try Fluker over Jerry. It's not like they're giving Eli much time in pass protection anyway. The best protection Eli could have is a better run game.

At this point, if I'm the Giants, I'm not giving Pugh or Richburg big contracts. Neither guy is in danger of pro-bowl consideration. Hopefully, they won't be roped into paying "great player money" for those guys because there's nothing better available.
RE: If the line plays like this  
micky : 8/21/2017 10:19 pm : link
In comment 13567918 MookGiants said:
Quote:
all year, and based on the past couple years there is no rrewson to believe it wont, it should gost Reese his job. Yes hes done a good job elsewhere but having an entire unit this bad this long should get him fired


Agree on this. Reese has done good in other areas, but for a franchise qb, and esp backside of career, the ol needed to be addressed well before these past few years of decline. you have to have enough to put an adequate ol at very least..not what we're seeing now
RE: RE: But because..  
The_Boss : 8/21/2017 10:20 pm : link
In comment 13567929 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 13567917 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


we've seen them play poorly in teh past, the expectation is they will continue to.

Hell, people were killing Flowers tonight and he's played decently. Now they are making the excuse that he's only marginal because he holds people. Yet when the opposition does it to JPP and Vernon, it's just crafty technique.



Feel free to preach patience. Anyone who is looking at this line realistically and without bias, especially given the track record, knows it isn't very good. Can they surprise us? Sure. I hope they do obviously. But I'm not trying to kid myself. They're not very good. Haven't been for a while now.


When would you say was the last time the OL was good? Perhaps 2010?
The OL has been unsettled now for  
Reb8thVA : 8/21/2017 10:20 pm : link
At least three years. It's not that Reese has ignored the line, but he hasn't approached it with perhaps the necessary vigor and focus many would like and his decision making regarding the line has been dubious. That said, the man knows his DBs, WRs and DEs. Maybe it's time to hire an outside consultant who can do a better job of assessing OL talent.
Nothing...remember our guys were still young and developing  
Jimmy Googs : 8/21/2017 10:21 pm : link
there was nobody worth getting in Free Agency

there was nobody worth drafting

this was the game plan

Enjoy it...
If the Giants make..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2017 10:21 pm : link
the playoffs you'd fire Reese simply for the OL??

Would people be happy if he improved the OL and another area was weak? No. A GM should be judged on the body of his work and success, not individual units.
Too late. Way.  
LauderdaleMatty : 8/21/2017 10:22 pm : link
People want to Laud Reese for drafting Pugh Flowers and Richberg early but it wasnt and isn't enough. Pugh will proably get a huge deal and will be gone. Richberg looks to be regressing. He may not be worth it to bring brack at all. Jerry is crappy and has been for years. Flowers may actually not be the worst guy after all is said and done. Hart is really up and down. And even if Fluker enters the starting 5 he is only signed for this year.

They skipped guys like Asiata Cam Rombinson and Ramczyck. And the guys they took may all be great great Giants. Better pros But the need for a big infusion of OL talent is over due.

...  
christian : 8/21/2017 10:22 pm : link
Either lots of help from TEs, FBs, and RBs, or a dramatic reshuffle.

It's hard to remember a Giants unit this bad for this long.
.  
Danny Kanell : 8/21/2017 10:24 pm : link
I'm not even killing Reese. I don't think he had many options this offseason. You can't address everything. But that doesn't change the fact that this is one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL.
What happened with Branden Albert?  
widmerseyebrow : 8/21/2017 10:24 pm : link
He tried to "unretire" and was released from the Jags. I believe that makes him a free agent. Could do worse than a a guy who was slated to be a starting LT as an insurance policy.
RE: I'd preach..  
LauderdaleMatty : 8/21/2017 10:24 pm : link
In comment 13567903 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
patience, but that would require people who have been sharpening pitchforks for months to put the damn things down....


OL has been shot for 5 years. And when only one out of your 3 early first OL picks works and he will most likely be gone next year.
Albert..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2017 10:25 pm : link
only unretired because he'd have to pay back money. The Jags cut him because he clearly doesn't want to play
Firing Reese isn't the answer  
David B. : 8/21/2017 10:25 pm : link
They need to fix it. Not fire the GM.
RE: What happened with Branden Albert?  
arcarsenal : 8/21/2017 10:26 pm : link
In comment 13567956 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
He tried to "unretire" and was released from the Jags. I believe that makes him a free agent. Could do worse than a a guy who was slated to be a starting LT as an insurance policy.


I think you'd have to seriously question his commitment to playing football. Is that a guy you really want?
Why..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2017 10:27 pm : link
does Richburg get shit on like he's horrible??

Quote:
And when only one out of your 3 early first OL picks works and he will most likely be gone next year.


He was considered the 2nd best Center in 2015 and spent almost all of last year injured. Like I said before - because the line has been poor, people think every guy sucks
RE: If the Giants make..  
The_Boss : 8/21/2017 10:27 pm : link
In comment 13567945 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the playoffs you'd fire Reese simply for the OL??

Would people be happy if he improved the OL and another area was weak? No. A GM should be judged on the body of his work and success, not individual units.


If they average less than 20 points a game and go one and done again (if they qualify) and it's clear as day the OL held the team back, then yes I would pull the trigger. His body of work with regard to the OL leaves a ton to be desired.
Four straight years  
Bluesbreaker : 8/21/2017 10:28 pm : link
under four yards a carry and we take Wayne Gallman for what
I don't fucking know . This team needed a power runner we
are so close yet the biggest problem was not addressed .
I watched half the game at a bar this team was not physically ready to play .
The O-line is just as big a problem as it was last year .
The schedule is brutal God forbid if we lose any linemen .
RE: Why..  
Jimmy Googs : 8/21/2017 10:30 pm : link
In comment 13567972 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
does Richburg get shit on like he's horrible??



Quote:


And when only one out of your 3 early first OL picks works and he will most likely be gone next year.



He was considered the 2nd best Center in 2015 and spent almost all of last year injured. Like I said before - because the line has been poor, people think every guy sucks


They kind of do. Why so defensive?
That's..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2017 10:31 pm : link
horrific logic:

Quote:
If they average less than 20 points a game and go one and done again (if they qualify) and it's clear as day the OL held the team back, then yes I would pull the trigger. His body of work with regard to the OL leaves a ton to be desired


So not improving the OL is a fireable offense, but the work he's done on the D doesn't register? The only way you aren't going to have one unit that is subpar in today's league is to have all the units be mediocre. And I'm sure Reese would catch shit for that too.
These threads  
UConn4523 : 8/21/2017 10:32 pm : link
are always guaranteed to suck, a BBI staple
...  
christian : 8/21/2017 10:32 pm : link
Disappointment in personnel and execution of the line doesn't equate to necessarily wanting to fire the GM. That's dorky logic.

Plenty pieces are broken, likely from scouting, selection, scheme and coaching.
RE: RE: Why..  
The_Boss : 8/21/2017 10:34 pm : link
In comment 13567986 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 13567972 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


does Richburg get shit on like he's horrible??



Quote:


And when only one out of your 3 early first OL picks works and he will most likely be gone next year.



He was considered the 2nd best Center in 2015 and spent almost all of last year injured. Like I said before - because the line has been poor, people think every guy sucks



They kind of do. Why so defensive?


Fringe NFL players at LT, RG, and RT
Average C (who is a FA)
Ok LG (who wants big $$)

When this season is over and it's obvious the OL held back everything, can you imagine how many premium resources (high picks and FA $$) are going to be needed along this line?
RE: Why..  
LauderdaleMatty : 8/21/2017 10:35 pm : link
In comment 13567972 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
does Richburg get shit on like he's horrible??



Quote:


And when only one out of your 3 early first OL picks works and he will most likely be gone next year.



He was considered the 2nd best Center in 2015 and spent almost all of last year injured. Like I said before - because the line has been poor, people think every guy sucks


He doesn't suck. Did I say he did? I said it seems that only one of the 3 has really worked out Richberg had one good year. His rookies year was meh. Last year may have been hampered by injury. This year sadly he doesn't look much better so far. . All GMs miss and not every player makes the jump. The fact is that Reese has invested a more locks at WR DE amd DB over his tenure than OL.

But there literally is only on guy who may be even close to an NFL level starter on the team as a back up right now in Fluker. So replacing anyone isn't an option bit pretending these guys other than Pugh are even mediocre right now is silly.

You said sarcastically about pitchforks. Well I'd say 5 years of being shitty is long ass time. Bringing up patience is more than a bit silly. Shit even George R R Martin can write a book in that time
yikes Geno  
Del Shofner : 8/21/2017 10:36 pm : link
.
RE: That's..  
The_Boss : 8/21/2017 10:37 pm : link
In comment 13567998 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
horrific logic:



Quote:


If they average less than 20 points a game and go one and done again (if they qualify) and it's clear as day the OL held the team back, then yes I would pull the trigger. His body of work with regard to the OL leaves a ton to be desired



So not improving the OL is a fireable offense, but the work he's done on the D doesn't register? The only way you aren't going to have one unit that is subpar in today's league is to have all the units be mediocre. And I'm sure Reese would catch shit for that too.


He HAD to go ape shit in FA on D in 2016 because his personnel decisions had become so bad Mara put him on notice. Everyone conveniently forgets this fact.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/21/2017 10:37 pm : link
I would cluster draft offensive lineman next year. Obviously within reason - but I'd spend like 3 of my first 5 picks on offensive linemen if it was feasible.
It is preseason game..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2017 10:38 pm : link
#2 for a guy who hadn't even been able to work out for most of the offseason.

Quote:
This year sadly he doesn't look much better so far.


Saying he doesn't look better after 3 quarters of play seems like there's already a bias that he isn't going to be good.
You guys follow the Giants for your whole life  
arniefez : 8/21/2017 10:40 pm : link
365 days a year and you think the Mara's are going to fire their GM? You think their GM has total authority over the roster? Pay more attention.
RE: You guys follow the Giants for your whole life  
The_Boss : 8/21/2017 10:42 pm : link
In comment 13568040 arniefez said:
Quote:
365 days a year and you think the Mara's are going to fire their GM? You think their GM has total authority over the roster? Pay more attention.


I take Christmas Day off
RE: .  
Reb8thVA : 8/21/2017 10:45 pm : link
In comment 13568025 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I would cluster draft offensive lineman next year. Obviously within reason - but I'd spend like 3 of my first 5 picks on offensive linemen if it was feasible.


They may very well have to given the expiring contracts, questions of whether to pick up Flowers option, and whether Hart is the answer at RT. It could get ugly also given it doesn't look like we will have much cap space.
Only recommendation  
plato : 8/21/2017 10:46 pm : link
Hari kari, seppuku, suicide, whatever
Was the Line even that bad tonight?  
djm : 8/21/2017 10:49 pm : link
I didn't see anything alarming at all.

Every time a nyg rb does something uninspiring everyone just blames the OL. I don't see it all on the OL at all. Perkins is uninspiring. He's not very fast or powerful and he danced a little too much on or or two or three plays tonight.

Trade for Joe Thomas  
Larry in Pencilvania : 8/21/2017 10:49 pm : link
Sorry someone had to do it
The problem is,  
Doomster : 8/21/2017 10:50 pm : link
on third down, there are 5 different guys that can screw up the play....
RE: If the line plays like this  
djm : 8/21/2017 10:51 pm : link
In comment 13567918 MookGiants said:
Quote:
all year, and based on the past couple years there is no rrewson to believe it wont, it should gost Reese his job. Yes hes done a good job elsewhere but having an entire unit this bad this long should get him fired


I don't even want to but I'll bite...

Do you want to fire Reese as punishment or do you think there is a better guy out there?


You're ready to fire the gm based on a lackluster preseason game... smh
steroids  
GMenLTS : 8/21/2017 10:52 pm : link
.
RE: RE: But because..  
SomeFan : 8/21/2017 10:53 pm : link
In comment 13567929 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 13567917 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


we've seen them play poorly in teh past, the expectation is they will continue to.

Hell, people were killing Flowers tonight and he's played decently. Now they are making the excuse that he's only marginal because he holds people. Yet when the opposition does it to JPP and Vernon, it's just crafty technique.



Feel free to preach patience. Anyone who is looking at this line realistically and without bias, especially given the track record, knows it isn't very good. Can they surprise us? Sure. I hope they do obviously. But I'm not trying to kid myself. They're not very good. Haven't been for a while now.


This be truth.
RE: RE: If the line plays like this  
GMenLTS : 8/21/2017 10:54 pm : link
In comment 13568078 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13567918 MookGiants said:


Quote:


all year, and based on the past couple years there is no rrewson to believe it wont, it should gost Reese his job. Yes hes done a good job elsewhere but having an entire unit this bad this long should get him fired



I don't even want to but I'll bite...

Do you want to fire Reese as punishment or do you think there is a better guy out there?


You're ready to fire the gm based on a lackluster preseason game... smh


We're 5 years running on the porous OL. Whether or not someone out there is sure to be better, his failure to adequately protect Eli during the prime of his career is at minimum, a fireable offense.
RE: RE: .  
The_Boss : 8/21/2017 10:54 pm : link
In comment 13568055 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
In comment 13568025 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


I would cluster draft offensive lineman next year. Obviously within reason - but I'd spend like 3 of my first 5 picks on offensive linemen if it was feasible.



They may very well have to given the expiring contracts, questions of whether to pick up Flowers option, and whether Hart is the answer at RT. It could get ugly also given it doesn't look like we will have much cap space.


Assuming this OL is (another) train wreck, I'd blow it up. Let both Pugh and Richburg walk along with Fluker. Move Flowers to RG, Hart to the bench, and trade up for whomever the consensus top LT is. I would hope the FO can manage to find equally mediocre players at a fraction of the cost to replace Pugh and Richburg.
RE: RE: If the Giants make..  
djm : 8/21/2017 10:54 pm : link
In comment 13567973 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 13567945 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


the playoffs you'd fire Reese simply for the OL??

Would people be happy if he improved the OL and another area was weak? No. A GM should be judged on the body of his work and success, not individual units.



If they average less than 20 points a game and go one and done again (if they qualify) and it's clear as day the OL held the team back, then yes I would pull the trigger. His body of work with regard to the OL leaves a ton to be desired.


Lol. You're gonna fire the gm. After back to back playoff seasons. Two rings.

Are you gonna fire Ozzie newsome too? What about the Seattle gm who's likely gonna have a flawed OL AGAIN in 2017.

The bills gm is awesome tho. Got that bills team headed in the right direction. Clearly.
Was that Fluker  
Doomster : 8/21/2017 10:54 pm : link
trying to block?
I recommend good rye:  
exiled : 8/21/2017 10:56 pm : link
Bulleit, Basil Hayden, Whistle Pig...
Whiskey definitely makes it easier to watch even the most inept offensive lines.

Check cuts  
WillVAB : 8/21/2017 10:56 pm : link
Reese needs to seriously consider veteran cuts to 53, particularly at RG/RT.

I'm encouraged by the left side and think they'll be better this year. Rich berg has upside at C. They need another veteran to compete on the right and they should give Fluker more reps with the 1's.
RE: RE: RE: If the Giants make..  
The_Boss : 8/21/2017 10:58 pm : link
In comment 13568087 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13567973 The_Boss said:


Quote:


In comment 13567945 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


the playoffs you'd fire Reese simply for the OL??

Would people be happy if he improved the OL and another area was weak? No. A GM should be judged on the body of his work and success, not individual units.



If they average less than 20 points a game and go one and done again (if they qualify) and it's clear as day the OL held the team back, then yes I would pull the trigger. His body of work with regard to the OL leaves a ton to be desired.



Lol. You're gonna fire the gm. After back to back playoff seasons. Two rings.

Are you gonna fire Ozzie newsome too? What about the Seattle gm who's likely gonna have a flawed OL AGAIN in 2017.

The bills gm is awesome tho. Got that bills team headed in the right direction. Clearly.


You're assuming they qualify. If they do, it sure as fuck won't be because of the OL (and offense). You counting on the D to save their ass all year again?
Bye bye  
Doomster : 8/21/2017 10:59 pm : link
Abdullah
RE: RE: What happened with Branden Albert?  
widmerseyebrow : 8/21/2017 11:01 pm : link
In comment 13567970 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13567956 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


He tried to "unretire" and was released from the Jags. I believe that makes him a free agent. Could do worse than a a guy who was slated to be a starting LT as an insurance policy.



I think you'd have to seriously question his commitment to playing football. Is that a guy you really want?


Sure, you're not going to get a guy of his caliber at this point in the year without some baggage. But bottom line is that he played at a high level for 9 seasons. Maybe money was the only thing motivating him all those years, but I'll take a guy who plays like that in exchange for a one year contract. It's a unique opportunity imo.
What does five years running have to do with anything??  
djm : 8/21/2017 11:01 pm : link
It means nothing. I see this is gonna be the new horse shit narrative. Let's use 2013 to bash the gm? Is that it.

You guys realize the maras aren't thinking about 2012-2013 anymore right? It's 2017. The giants have flaws but they are built to win. They will likely have to do what the other good or great teams do these days and that is win despite some flaws.

Would it make you more confident in Reese if the OL was good but the WRs were terrible? The team would still be flawed. I don't understand why everyone fixates on "five years of bad OL" -- do you really honestly believe that Reese doesn't recognize OL talent or simply doesn't care about OL? He didn't care about TEs either right? Until he did.

You can fixate on five years but it's irrelevant. It's a coincidence.
RE: RE: RE: If the line plays like this  
The_Boss : 8/21/2017 11:04 pm : link
In comment 13568085 GMenLTS said:
Quote:
In comment 13568078 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 13567918 MookGiants said:


Quote:


all year, and based on the past couple years there is no rrewson to believe it wont, it should gost Reese his job. Yes hes done a good job elsewhere but having an entire unit this bad this long should get him fired



I don't even want to but I'll bite...

Do you want to fire Reese as punishment or do you think there is a better guy out there?


You're ready to fire the gm based on a lackluster preseason game... smh



We're 5 years running on the porous OL. Whether or not someone out there is sure to be better, his failure to adequately protect Eli during the prime of his career is at minimum, a fireable offense.


Been saying this for years. They've been re-arranging the deck chairs along that OL since 2013. Something is flawed how they evaluate that unit in comparison to the rest of the roster.
RE: What does five years running have to do with anything??  
Jimmy Googs : 8/21/2017 11:07 pm : link
In comment 13568119 djm said:
Quote:
It means nothing. I see this is gonna be the new horse shit narrative. Let's use 2013 to bash the gm? Is that it.

You guys realize the maras aren't thinking about 2012-2013 anymore right? It's 2017. The giants have flaws but they are built to win. They will likely have to do what the other good or great teams do these days and that is win despite some flaws.

Would it make you more confident in Reese if the OL was good but the WRs were terrible? The team would still be flawed. I don't understand why everyone fixates on "five years of bad OL" -- do you really honestly believe that Reese doesn't recognize OL talent or simply doesn't care about OL? He didn't care about TEs either right? Until he did.

You can fixate on five years but it's irrelevant. It's a coincidence.


Give it a rest aleady DJM. The offense and oline didnt look good again and the guys want to vent...so let them.
djm  
GMenLTS : 8/21/2017 11:09 pm : link
you know me here, I'm not saying Reese must go tonight.

But the OL story is criminal at this point. I hope Eli will overcome it on the way to ring #3 but if he doesn't, I know exactly where I'm pointing the finger.

The rest of the roster looks pretty good but it's all for naught if Eli only has 1.5 seconds to throw the ball every other play.
RE: RE: What does five years running have to do with anything??  
jcn56 : 8/21/2017 11:15 pm : link
In comment 13568133 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

Give it a rest aleady DJM. The offense and oline didnt look good again and the guys want to vent...so let them.


What are you complaining about, we've been letting you spew nonsense for years now.
Yeah  
djm : 8/21/2017 11:19 pm : link
I just didn't see anything alarming tonight at all. Guys it's a preseason game! You're venting now??? Because the offense didn't resemble 2008 home vs the ravens? It was a sloppy disjointed affair but i honestly didn't see any alarming OL issues tonight. I just don't get the hysterics.

And you only fire someone if you think there's a better replacement out there. You don't fire to punish or make a statement.

Again I just didn't see anything to be alarmed about tonight. It was just another boring sloppy preseason game. Eli got sacked once or twice. Ok.. that happens.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If the Giants make..  
djm : 8/21/2017 11:22 pm : link
In comment 13568103 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 13568087 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 13567973 The_Boss said:


Quote:


In comment 13567945 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


the playoffs you'd fire Reese simply for the OL??

Would people be happy if he improved the OL and another area was weak? No. A GM should be judged on the body of his work and success, not individual units.



If they average less than 20 points a game and go one and done again (if they qualify) and it's clear as day the OL held the team back, then yes I would pull the trigger. His body of work with regard to the OL leaves a ton to be desired.



Lol. You're gonna fire the gm. After back to back playoff seasons. Two rings.

Are you gonna fire Ozzie newsome too? What about the Seattle gm who's likely gonna have a flawed OL AGAIN in 2017.

The bills gm is awesome tho. Got that bills team headed in the right direction. Clearly.



You're assuming they qualify. If they do, it sure as fuck won't be because of the OL (and offense). You counting on the D to save their ass all year again?


I don't know... maybe.... yeah I guess I am. I'm hoping some part of this team can carry it all the way.

Guys just accept it. The OL isn't 1990 good or 2008 good. Every game that they don't resemble greatness you guys go ape shit. They can still win this year and I'd save the angst for when the games count.

Every summer every year... same shit.
I knew this place would blow up this summer  
djm : 8/21/2017 11:24 pm : link
The expectations being set back in the spring were ridiculous then and ridiculous now. I liked the off seaso and think the offense has been improved but it's still going to be a work in progress.
I think this NYG team  
bigbluehoya : 8/21/2017 11:25 pm : link
Has enough talent through the rest of the roster that a good argument can be made to trade a future pick or two to upgrade the OL at this point.

Yes, there are a dozen qualifiers....you need to find a willing trading partner, changing out one or two players doesn't guarantee better results, etc etc etc. But it's clear that there is a pretty significant talent deficiency at OL.

RE: What does five years running have to do with anything??  
LauderdaleMatty : 8/21/2017 11:26 pm : link
In comment 13568119 djm said:
Quote:
It means nothing. I see this is gonna be the new horse shit narrative. Let's use 2013 to bash the gm? Is that it.

You guys realize the maras aren't thinking about 2012-2013 anymore right? It's 2017. The giants have flaws but they are built to win. They will likely have to do what the other good or great teams do these days and that is win despite some flaws.

Would it make you more confident in Reese if the OL was good but the WRs were terrible? The team would still be flawed. I don't understand why everyone fixates on "five years of bad OL" -- do you really honestly believe that Reese doesn't recognize OL talent or simply doesn't care about OL? He didn't care about TEs either right? Until he did.

You can fixate on five years but it's irrelevant. It's a coincidence.


Why draft Tomlinson over an OL? Why draft David Wilson over Cordy Glenn? Clint Sintim over Max Unger? Reese doesn't invest in he OL
Enough. So that fact that is sucks
Is on him. Just like he should get major kudos for the D.

It is what it is. The OL sucked for ever. You pretending it doesn't and making excuses for it doesn't make it good. It was really shitty year and all they did was bring in Fluker. So if you only want to focus on this year then Reese is in the book. And if the team doesn't win due to the OL then why can't he Bear the responsibility
The first string OL still cannot get any movement up front...and  
yatqb : 8/21/2017 11:33 pm : link
that's alarming to many of us. We don't have one road grader at any of the interior OL positions, and it shows. A guy like Chris Snee would make this line go, but instead we have Jerry and Richburg, who don't get any movement at all as a rule.
Since 2011 we know that we don't need a perfect line  
widmerseyebrow : 8/21/2017 11:33 pm : link
That squad was good enough at pass protection in spite of a dead last ranking rushing the ball.

The problem is this line doesn't do either particularly well.
Can we use Ellison  
Mike from SI : 8/21/2017 11:36 pm : link
and our backs more to chip on pass plays? I did recall seeing that a few times tonight. I thought Flowers looked ok when I was watching him.

I don't know enough about the running game to explain how to fix it, but we may simply have a talent issue.
Death  
Lawrence_Taylor_56 : 8/21/2017 11:37 pm : link
I recommend death
RE: Since 2011 we know that we don't need a perfect line  
Devon : 8/21/2017 11:38 pm : link
In comment 13568179 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
That squad was good enough at pass protection in spite of a dead last ranking rushing the ball.

The problem is this line doesn't do either particularly well.


That line gave up the most pressures in the NFL that season; they weren't good enough then, they stunk.

The QB just covered for them. And he's likely just going to have to do it again now, however improbable it may seem, if they're going to do anything offensively this year.
RE: RE: Since 2011 we know that we don't need a perfect line  
The_Boss : 8/21/2017 11:42 pm : link
In comment 13568191 Devon said:
Quote:
In comment 13568179 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


That squad was good enough at pass protection in spite of a dead last ranking rushing the ball.

The problem is this line doesn't do either particularly well.



That line gave up the most pressures in the NFL that season; they weren't good enough then, they stunk.

The QB just covered for them. And he's likely just going to have to do it again now, however improbable it may seem, if they're going to do anything offensively this year.


2017 Eli isn't the fearless 2011 Eli. He's more cognizant of the pass rush.
RE: RE: RE: Since 2011 we know that we don't need a perfect line  
Devon : 8/21/2017 11:51 pm : link
In comment 13568192 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 13568191 Devon said:


Quote:


In comment 13568179 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


That squad was good enough at pass protection in spite of a dead last ranking rushing the ball.

The problem is this line doesn't do either particularly well.



That line gave up the most pressures in the NFL that season; they weren't good enough then, they stunk.

The QB just covered for them. And he's likely just going to have to do it again now, however improbable it may seem, if they're going to do anything offensively this year.



2017 Eli isn't the fearless 2011 Eli. He's more cognizant of the pass rush.


I don't disagree -- his internal clock was clearly busted last season after the hit in the Washington game. The years of this mess (no one cite sack totals; Eli is never ever going to take a lot of sacks/official hits, no matter how terrible the OL is) have taken their toll on him.

But we are where we are. He either rises up and covers for them, however improbably, or they're likely going to be fucked.
I  
AcidTest : 8/21/2017 11:56 pm : link
said on the game thread: Pugh to LT, Flowers to RG. Cut Jerry and Fluker. Keep Gettis. Sign or trade for a veteran.
RE: I  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2017 12:05 am : link
In comment 13568214 AcidTest said:
Quote:
said on the game thread: Pugh to LT, Flowers to RG. Cut Jerry and Fluker. Keep Gettis. Sign or trade for a veteran.


I don't think cutting Jerry and Fluker is going to solve anything.

And if you're going to move Pugh back to OT, it might not be the left side that needs the help as much as the right...
RE: RE: If the Giants make..  
Matt M. : 8/22/2017 1:16 am : link
In comment 13567973 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 13567945 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


the playoffs you'd fire Reese simply for the OL??

Would people be happy if he improved the OL and another area was weak? No. A GM should be judged on the body of his work and success, not individual units.



If they average less than 20 points a game and go one and done again (if they qualify) and it's clear as day the OL held the team back, then yes I would pull the trigger. His body of work with regard to the OL leaves a ton to be desired.
FatMan - Well, he has spent a lot of resources on the OL over the last few years and it hasn't gotten any better. It may actually be worse, despite 2 first round picks and a second round pick starting. Unlike many here, I don't think he neglected the OL. I just think he has made many shitty moves. The OL seems to be the weakest unit by far and seems like it will continue to be the biggest thing holding this team back. They hadn't had a playoff appearance for a few years and the OL play was one major factor. Last year was one and done. Even if they make the playoffs this year, I think they need a win for Reese to keep his job.

And believe me, that is weighing in his total body of work. That factors in doing shit with TE for years. That factors in doing shit with LBs for years. That factors in no playoff appearances for more than a couple of years. I am still wondering why the owner blamed 2015 chiefly on personnel, but fires the HC and retains the GM.
RE: RE: What does five years running have to do with anything??  
Matt M. : 8/22/2017 1:20 am : link
In comment 13568163 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 13568119 djm said:


Quote:


It means nothing. I see this is gonna be the new horse shit narrative. Let's use 2013 to bash the gm? Is that it.

You guys realize the maras aren't thinking about 2012-2013 anymore right? It's 2017. The giants have flaws but they are built to win. They will likely have to do what the other good or great teams do these days and that is win despite some flaws.

Would it make you more confident in Reese if the OL was good but the WRs were terrible? The team would still be flawed. I don't understand why everyone fixates on "five years of bad OL" -- do you really honestly believe that Reese doesn't recognize OL talent or simply doesn't care about OL? He didn't care about TEs either right? Until he did.

You can fixate on five years but it's irrelevant. It's a coincidence.



Why draft Tomlinson over an OL? Why draft David Wilson over Cordy Glenn? Clint Sintim over Max Unger? Reese doesn't invest in he OL
Enough. So that fact that is sucks
Is on him. Just like he should get major kudos for the D.

It is what it is. The OL sucked for ever. You pretending it doesn't and making excuses for it doesn't make it good. It was really shitty year and all they did was bring in Fluker. So if you only want to focus on this year then Reese is in the book. And if the team doesn't win due to the OL then why can't he Bear the responsibility
Fluke isn't all he did. Bisnowaty was a great value in the draft. They got possibly the 2 best UDFA OL available. The problem is, none of them seem capable of unseating Jerry, who is absolutely terrible. Flowers needs to miraculously turn things around in a couple of weeks for this team to have any shot.
RE: Why..  
BigBlueWhale : 8/22/2017 1:30 am : link
In comment 13567972 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
does Richburg get shit on like he's horrible??



Quote:


And when only one out of your 3 early first OL picks works and he will most likely be gone next year.



He was considered the 2nd best Center in 2015 and spent almost all of last year injured. Like I said before - because the line has been poor, people think every guy sucks


Considered by who? He didn't sniff the Pro Bowl or either All Pro team. Where is the evidence?

He couldn't beat out J.D. Walton as a rookie, stunk at LG and got benched when there was nobody good to replace him, played OK in 2015, stunk last year and looks like he stinks again right now in the preseason. At no point was he ever even close to the best C in the NFL and that is a ridiculous statement to be clinging to!
RE: RE: Why..  
Mike from SI : 8/22/2017 1:33 am : link
In comment 13568291 BigBlueWhale said:
Quote:
In comment 13567972 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


does Richburg get shit on like he's horrible??



Quote:


And when only one out of your 3 early first OL picks works and he will most likely be gone next year.



He was considered the 2nd best Center in 2015 and spent almost all of last year injured. Like I said before - because the line has been poor, people think every guy sucks



Considered by who? He didn't sniff the Pro Bowl or either All Pro team. Where is the evidence?

He couldn't beat out J.D. Walton as a rookie, stunk at LG and got benched when there was nobody good to replace him, played OK in 2015, stunk last year and looks like he stinks again right now in the preseason. At no point was he ever even close to the best C in the NFL and that is a ridiculous statement to be clinging to!


He played way more than "ok" in 2015. Saying otherwise is just revisionist history based on his regression in 2016.

I know O-Line play is generally down across the league, but it is disconcerting how bad this unit has been for several years running now.
At least we have moved on from thinking Beatty  
xman : 8/22/2017 1:52 am : link
Looks like its time to add C to our list of needs if overnight Weston has turned horrible


RE: Was the Line even that bad tonight?  
Beer Man : 8/22/2017 5:15 am : link
In comment 13568067 djm said:
Quote:
I didn't see anything alarming at all.

Every time a nyg rb does something uninspiring everyone just blames the OL. I don't see it all on the OL at all. Perkins is uninspiring. He's not very fast or powerful and he danced a little too much on or or two or three plays tonight.
No RB is going to do well when the defenders are in the backfield and in his face within a step of being handed the ball.
Having Jerry and Newhouse on the same line, at one  
SHO'NUFF : 8/22/2017 5:51 am : link
point in time, is a fireable act by itself...but JR rolled with it. Solari isn't doing a bang up job, either. Apologies to Flaherty and our old S&C team. They clearly weren't the problem. I see that now. Our OL scouts leave much to be desired.
RE: Yeah  
UberAlias : 8/22/2017 5:57 am : link
In comment 13568147 djm said:
Quote:
I just didn't see anything alarming tonight at all. Guys it's a preseason game! You're venting now??? Because the offense didn't resemble 2008 home vs the ravens? It was a sloppy disjointed affair but i honestly didn't see any alarming OL issues tonight. I just don't get the hysterics.

And you only fire someone if you think there's a better replacement out there. You don't fire to punish or make a statement.

Again I just didn't see anything to be alarmed about tonight. It was just another boring sloppy preseason game. Eli got sacked once or twice. Ok.. that happens.
Is Eli going through progressions? That is a big key to the season. Plenty of weapons in the offense but you don't get the benefits if the QB isn't moving on from option 1.
Why does this shit...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2017 7:59 am : link
continually get spewed here?

Quote:
Why draft Tomlinson over an OL? Why draft David Wilson over Cordy Glenn? Clint Sintim over Max Unger? Reese doesn't invest in he OL
Enough. So that fact that is sucks


Flowers, Pugh and Richburg laugh at your assertion that Reese doesn't invest in the OL. But cherry picking people who you think would be better served with an OL guy is enthralling shit.

What if we picked an OL guy instead of Pierre-Paul or Beckham? Shit, why not have stayed pat in 2004 and drafted OL instead of Eli?? It is an exercise in futility, but more importantly, it is flat out wrong to assert reese doesn't invest in the OL. Are you fucking blind?

Well, now that you asked..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2017 8:01 am : link
Quote:
Considered by who? He didn't sniff the Pro Bowl or either All Pro team. Where is the evidence?


We can even look at 2016 and his pass blocking - a year he was hurt:
From PFF:
Quote:
While the New York Giants offensive line catches a lot of criticism, it doesn’t mean the unit is without its standouts. One of the members of the unit that stood out in 2016 was center Weston Richburg, who was extremely productive when pass blocking.

Richburg - best pass blocking Center in 2016 - ( New Window )
like I said the past 3 springs  
idiotsavant : 8/22/2017 8:02 am : link
draft guards early...or - this version of mac ball requires big slobbery G-C-G combo.

I mean, I was like a broken record on that shit.
More on Richburg:  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2017 8:03 am : link
Quote:
In 2015, the Giant's center put up numbers that would consider him the No. 1 player in the league at his respective position.


Quote:
Weston Richburg was undoubtedly one of the bright spots of the Giants' 2015 season.

The 2014 second-round pick out of Colorado State moved to his natural position, center, after spending his rookie year at guard and had a sensational campaign, putting himself in Pro Bowl consideration.

As a result, Richburg has been named Pro Football Focus' No. 2 breakout player of the year

Richburg - Breakout player - ( New Window )
as for what to do now  
idiotsavant : 8/22/2017 8:06 am : link
sounds like on the radio that they tried outside zone run right and hart was to slow to get out there.

keep practicing outside zone right and left.

Not sure if Solari is as much of a one on one technique and communicator as, say, Spagnulo, but, if not, he needs to get his shit together as to what to run and very specifically how to run it.

Front office says 'coach up the guys we have' as opposed to draft high...so....so be it there is no third option
whereas on D you have a cohesive system  
idiotsavant : 8/22/2017 8:13 am : link
on O it seems like we may break records this year for fewest run attempts ever, after this preseasons lessons.

I have been saying it since Dave Brown:

>

If you cannot run, if you end up with dink and dunk and chuck and duck (longer passes), you end up with WR injuries (becks and shep last night) due to the D sits back and hammers the expected dinks receivers.

Same thing around the time of very early Eli...the 'pass as run' seems to be ok...then 'unexpected' WR injuries...'oh well, big excuse'....
What I recommend for the OL? Let me repeat a post in another thread:  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2017 8:35 am : link
Quote:


I think I'll wait as I always do

Big Blue '56 : 8:29 am : link : reply

to allow the OL to get their 60-70 or more of consistent snaps a game where synergy is built over a period of of several games before ATTEMPTING to assess where we are..I will NOT go by last year and I will NOT go by preseason.

There's a reason why Parcells et al have said it takes around 4 regular season games to "see what you have."

With the current personnel?  
jeff57 : 8/22/2017 8:38 am : link
I'd move Pugh to LT, Flowers to RT, Jerry to LG and put Fluker at RG.
We can recommend all we want  
Harvest Blend : 8/22/2017 8:45 am : link
but nothing is going to change. There are no moves they can make this late to help anything.

We have to hope that the WR's are ok health-wise and then hope for a couple of dynamic plays a game just like last year.
actually my bad ( 'watched ' on radio)  
idiotsavant : 8/22/2017 9:02 am : link
they did run a simple outside zone run left play action (our suggestion pre game) big pass play to Will Tye right.

Very nice and well executed by the line.

looking at highlights, lots of show offy type run attempts and routes, less quick hit simple blocking type plays than we need.

even on a different outside zone run left, failed one, Flowers had his man but let him go, assuming the runner was past already....oosh, good news bad news there, wrong mindset
RE: RE: Since 2011 we know that we don't need a perfect line  
widmerseyebrow : 8/22/2017 10:56 am : link
In comment 13568191 Devon said:
Quote:
In comment 13568179 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


That squad was good enough at pass protection in spite of a dead last ranking rushing the ball.

The problem is this line doesn't do either particularly well.



That line gave up the most pressures in the NFL that season; they weren't good enough then, they stunk.

The QB just covered for them. And he's likely just going to have to do it again now, however improbable it may seem, if they're going to do anything offensively this year.


In a completely different offense that emphasized downfield passing. Eli hanging in until the last second in that offense vs. this offense is probably the difference of a full second or two.
At the moment and moving forward to the regular season...  
The Tempest : 8/22/2017 3:34 pm : link
I'd say we have 4 out of 5 offensive lineman. I thought in May when the McAdoo spoke of the offensive line being a work in progress and they would move guys around to find the best combination we would have ended up with Pugh at LT and Flowers at RT. Hart gets moved to Guard and Fluker beats out Jerry for the other Guard position.

None of that has happened or even considered.

While we are busy looking at Flowers, Hart is struggling and Jerry has found a new low. Fluker so far hasn't proven conclusively to be an improvement over Jerry but at this point I'll take the chance and start Fluker against the Jets.
everybody keeps bitching about Jerry Reese  
Jersey55 : 8/22/2017 4:28 pm : link
, especially me but he seems to walk on water and can do no wrong with the front office, enough is enough with this guy he sucks, its time for an upgrade at the GM position...
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2017 4:40 pm : link
how can you say a guy sucks after the job he's done the past couple of years, especially on the D?

Quote:
everybody keeps bitching about Jerry Reese
Jersey55 : 4:28 pm : link : reply
, especially me but he seems to walk on water and can do no wrong with the front office, enough is enough with this guy he sucks, its time for an upgrade at the GM position..


Are you one of the putzes that thinks he sucks because of the OL but takes the continued strength of the DB's and DE's as a given?
RE: LOL..  
Jersey55 : 8/22/2017 4:58 pm : link
In comment 13569499 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
how can you say a guy sucks after the job he's done the past couple of years, especially on the D?



Quote:


everybody keeps bitching about Jerry Reese
Jersey55 : 4:28 pm : link : reply
, especially me but he seems to walk on water and can do no wrong with the front office, enough is enough with this guy he sucks, its time for an upgrade at the GM position..



Are you one of the putzes that thinks he sucks because of the OL but takes the continued strength of the DB's and DE's as a given?

No I'm one of the putzes who thinks Reese was lucky to be able to buy a defense at a time when the team had lots of cap money, but now we don't have that kind of cap money and he seems helpless, and yes I think he sucks because of the O line , its his job to supply what the team needs and he isn't getting the job done, are you happy with the O line??
I'm not happy..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2017 6:39 pm : link
with the OL, but it isn't due to a lack of attention to it.

You don't see a contradiction is ranting against a guy for weaknesses and not factoring in strengths?

If you think the OL has sucked for a long time, well, the DB's and DE's have been very strong for years.
I disagree that the Oline is struggling right now  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/22/2017 7:19 pm : link
that's a convenient misconception - but I don't see what it is based on after reviewing yesterday's game
Really? Just because there are breakdowns with the RBs & TEs  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2017 7:25 pm : link
as well, you are going to say the O-line is "doing fine"?

Keep in mind, i didn't see them breakdown as much yesterday either but they sure is shit didn't win at the point of attack either. And getting a stalemate is really losing if your playing offense.

At the end of the day, the Offense doesn't gain anything on first down pressuring the other downs, it punts too often and it doesn't score enough points.

Finding a scapegoat for each play is a waste of time b/c you cannot fire the whole team. You find the worst or repeat offenders and make changes...

RE: RE: Was the Line even that bad tonight?  
djm : 8/22/2017 7:55 pm : link
In comment 13568313 Beer Man said:
Quote:
In comment 13568067 djm said:


Quote:


I didn't see anything alarming at all.

Every time a nyg rb does something uninspiring everyone just blames the OL. I don't see it all on the OL at all. Perkins is uninspiring. He's not very fast or powerful and he danced a little too much on or or two or three plays tonight.


No RB is going to do well when the defenders are in the backfield and in his face within a step of being handed the ball.


That's not what actually happens every time or even half the time but ok.
What to do about the OL?  
johnboyw : 8/22/2017 8:09 pm : link
Get rid of them all except Pugh. They all suck and they will be the downfall of the team (again) this year. Not even NFL caliber. I watched the line closely on one first quarter running play last night. Pugh drove his guy 5-7 yards off the line and then turned him out. Textbook. The other 4 were either stuffed at the line or pushed back. Net result-Perkins loses 2-3 yards. The rest of the night wasn't much better. And this was against the 1-15 Browns starting a rookie and 2nd year player at DE and a household name like Trevon Coley at DT. I've said it before and I'll say it again-the blown Flowers draft pick by Reese will set this team back 5-6 years. The idea that he or anyone else in this organization actually believe they can make a Super Bowl run with a line packed with underachievers and journeymen is beyond compression. Reese should be fired for not addressing this issue in the offseason. Oh, sorry. He signed DJ Flunker.
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