Archived Thread

Question for X and O guys on Run vs Pass - Pats example

pjcas18 : 8/22/2017 8:56 am

I ask this question believing the Giants insistence on "establishing the run" is a flawed an unnecessary philosophy and as my example I use the 2002 Patriots.

I hate how everything comes back to the Patriots, but I live here and watch them so I feel like teams could learn from them, but I am not an x and o's guy so someone tell me why this won't work.

teams, IMO viewed the Patriots SB win over the Rams as a fluke, and maybe it was (I don't view it that way).

To open the 2002 season the Patriots faced the Steelers, the team "supposed" to go to the Super Bowl that year. The Steelers were favored in New England.

The Patriots had a known running issue (they finished like 28th in the NFL in rushing), and the Steelers had a great run D - #1 in the league.

Here is how Charlies Weis opened that game on the Patriots first half possessions:

Drive 1

Quote:

Tom Brady pass incomplete intended for Antowain Smith
Antowain Smith up the middle for 6 yards (tackle by Dewayne Washington)
Tom Brady pass incomplete intended for Donald Hayes
Ken Walter punts 40 yards, touchback

Drive 2

Quote:

Tom Brady pass complete to Marc Edwards for 11 yards (tackle by Lee Flowers and Brent Alexander)
Tom Brady pass incomplete intended for David Patten. Penalty on Chad Scott: Defensive Holding, 5 yards (no play)
Tom Brady pass incomplete intended for Daniel Graham
Antowain Smith up the middle for -4 yards (tackle by Casey Hampton and James Farrior)
Tom Brady pass incomplete intended for Troy Brown (defended by Chad Scott). Penalty on Joey Porter: Encroachment, 5 yards (no play)
Tom Brady pass incomplete intended for David Patten. Penalty on Dewayne Washington: Defensive Holding, 5 yards (no play)
Tom Brady pass complete to Christian Fauria for 4 yards, touchdown

Drive 3

Quote:

Tom Brady pass complete to Troy Brown for 2 yards (tackle by Kendrell Bell)
Antowain Smith up the middle for 4 yards (tackle by Jason Gildon)
Tom Brady pass complete to Deion Branch for 5 yards (tackle by Chad Scott)
Tom Brady pass incomplete intended for David Patten
Antowain Smith left end for 3 yards (tackle by Larry Foote and Brent Alexander). Penalty on Marc Edwards: Offensive Holding, 10 yards
Tom Brady pass complete to Cam Cleeland for 1 yard (tackle by Joey Porter)
Tom Brady pass complete to J.R. Redmond for 3 yards (tackle by Mike Logan and Rodney Bailey)

Drive 4

Quote:

Tom Brady pass complete to Cam Cleeland for 8 yards (tackle by James Farrior)
Tom Brady pass complete to Deion Branch for 5 yards (tackle by Lee Flowers)
Tom Brady pass incomplete intended for David Patten
Tom Brady pass complete to Donald Hayes for 9 yards (tackle by Joey Porter)
Tom Brady pass incomplete intended for Deion Branch (defended by Joey Porter)
Ken Walter punts 41 yards, returned by Antwaan Randle El for 9 yards (tackle by Matt Chatham)

Drive 5

Quote:

Tom Brady pass complete to Troy Brown for 1 yard (tackle by Aaron Smith and Lee Flowers)
Tom Brady pass complete to Cam Cleeland for 10 yards (tackle by James Farrior and Larry Foote)
Tom Brady pass complete to Troy Brown for 4 yards (tackle by Jason Gildon)
Tom Brady pass complete to David Patten for 11 yards
Tom Brady pass complete to David Patten for 11 yards (tackle by Chad Scott)
Tom Brady pass incomplete intended for Deion Branch
Tom Brady pass complete to Cam Cleeland for 7 yards (tackle by Joey Porter)
Tom Brady pass incomplete intended for Troy Brown
Adam Vinatieri 45 yard field goal good

Drive 6

Quote:

Tom Brady pass complete to Deion Branch for 17 yards (tackle by Deshea Townsend)
Tom Brady pass incomplete intended for J.R. Redmond
Tom Brady sacked for -3 yards

four runs in the entire 1st half in 6 drives (one partial to end the half)

Drive 7

Quote:

Tom Brady sacked for -11 yards
Tom Brady pass complete to Cam Cleeland for 8 yards (tackle by James Farrior)
Tom Brady pass complete to David Patten for 37 yards
Tom Brady pass complete to Donald Hayes for 40 yards, touchdown

Drive 8

Quote:

Tom Brady pass complete to Donald Hayes for 5 yards (tackle by Dewayne Washington)
Marc Edwards right guard for no gain (tackle by Larry Foote and Aaron Smith). Penalty on Joe Andruzzi: Offensive Holding, 11 yards (no play)
Tom Brady pass complete to Troy Brown for -1 yards (tackle by Jason Gildon)
Tom Brady pass incomplete intended for Troy Brown
NWE challenged the ruling, and the play was overturned. Tom Brady pass complete to Troy Brown for 19 yards
Antowain Smith left tackle for 4 yards
Antowain Smith up the middle for 3 yards (tackle by James Farrior and Jason Gildon)
Antowain Smith right tackle for 5 yards (tackle by Mike Logan and Kendrell Bell)
Troy Brown left end for -3 yards. Penalty on Christian Fauria: Offensive Holding, 10 yards (no play)
Tom Brady pass complete to Christian Fauria for 7 yards (tackle by Joey Porter and James Farrior)
Tom Brady pass complete to Cam Cleeland for 6 yards (tackle by Lee Flowers)
Tom Brady pass complete to Deion Branch for 22 yards, touchdown

Score is now 24 - 7 and they've run the ball 7 times and they're halfway through the 3rd quarter. Game is essentially won.

What I liked about this approach is the Patriots knew running wasn't their strength and run D was the Steelers strength, so they didn't even really try and run.

It was a relatively meaningless game, week 1 of a season after winning a SB, the Patriots didn't make the playoffs that year at 9 - 7, but it was one of the best offensive game plans I've ever seen.

So my questions are:

Why do the Giants need to establish the run? Seems old school to me, why not soften the D up first with some quick passes that don't allow them to play so tight, and then if you want you can run the ball.

Why can't they just use slants, quick outs, HB screens, WR screens, etc. and NOT even really run the ball and at the same time not ask the OL to block for a long time for long developing pass plays?

It seems like they have the perfect personnel for it with Beckham, Shepard, Marshall, Engram, Vereen, etc.

I absolutely admit NFL game planning isn't my forte and I'm not some Madden guy either, simply asking why the Giants seem absolutely intent on establishing the run and maintaining a good ratio of run to pass?

I hate when people say to be patient with the OL

robbieballs2003 : 8/22/2017 9:22 am : link

as we have seen this song and dance before. However, be patient here. It is preseason. There is minimal game-planning going on right now and the preseason is the time to work on your weaknesses. Having the Giants work on their running game now is what should happen. That doesn't mean that it will be the same during the season.

Think about it like a coach going for it on 4th and 1. Why do they do it? sometimes it is just to restore confidence in your team. If it works then great. If not then it could really hamper the team. Same goes for the running game in preseason. You have to give it a shot if you want to improve it but right now all the air is out of the balloon so to say with regards to it.

I think the way this particular offense needs to work....

BillKo : 8/22/2017 9:33 am : link

is use the pass to setup the run.

They will need to put downfield pressure on the defense to make them back off, and hopefully that will soften things up for the run game.

This was a basic premise of Bill Walsh and his offense. Come out throwing, then run the ball to ice the game.

My major problem with our OL is the lack of push in the middle....there is no push and there are no holes for our backs.

I agree with the general premise

jcn56 : 8/22/2017 9:38 am : link

and that's why I'm not terrified by the OL - they're better in pass pro, even if only mediocre (with injuries to both Pugh and Richburg last year, they were something like 20th overall?).

More talent on O this year, hopefully a healthy core OL, they'll be good enough to be middle of the pack in pass pro. McAdoo probably has the guys he needs to make those short passes more effective and the gameplan shifts to focus on pass setting up the run.

Still, need to be able to run at will on occasion, in particular for short yardage or goal line situations where passing may be impractical.

i agree 110%

GiantNatty : 8/22/2017 9:39 am : link

and I do believe that you need to run to win. But the stubborn insistence on running the ball first is holding this offense back, without question imho. Your franchise player is Eli Manning - let him chuck it all over the yard. Your best player is OBJ - let him catch it all over the yard.

This year they have outstanding weapons in the passing game with an unproven running back. With the weapons and the defense they have, they should be passing to establish the run, not running to establish the pass.

RE: I hate when people say to be patient with the OL

pjcas18 : 8/22/2017 9:42 am : link

In comment 13568551 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

Thanks for the reply and to be clear I'm patient and I'm not suggesting drastic unrealistic (I don't think) changes and I don't put much stock into pre-season results and agree this is the time to work on shit, however, this is the same OL unit as last year's regular season, so If they do fall flat on their face in run blocking during the regular season (and pass blocking for that matter) I'm just wondering, are the Giants confident enough to abandon the run, and do so early?

This was still spygate era Patriots so who knows how much they knew of what the Steelers defensive alignment indicated, but that play transcript was from week 1.

So it wasn't like halfway through the season the Patriots recognized a problem it was based on pre-sesson and training camp I imagine.

Coach Mac.....

BillKo : 8/22/2017 9:42 am : link

seems caught up sometimes in whether he wants to be pure WC offense, or be able to run the ball and be balanced.

I NEVER liked how Andy Reid operated in Philly, but he would come out throwing - sometimes 8, 9, 10 x in a row. Then after the defense was loose, he'd start running it.

And passing the ball didn't mean down the field all the time. There were screens, hitches, etc..........

It seems we waste downs with run plays. Of course, the flip side is if they work as designed, everything changes.

But you have to realize what your strength is and play to it.