than this offseason. We waited to long to address the o-line, and now we're struggling.
What happened to our offensive line didn't happen overnight, it began in 2009 and we never adequately addressed it until we hit rock bottom in 2013. By then, it was too late and we've never really recovered.
The time for drastic change to the offensive line was after 2015 Â
There were top end free agents available and we had the cap space to do it. I acknowledge that the defense was very good in 2016 in part because of the free agent signings we made, but entering the final years of Eli Manning's career (and the rookie contract years of Odell Beckham) with significant offensive line questions is still something I would consider a failure given the cap riches we had. The 2016 spending spree didn't have to be entirely on the defense.
Alternatively, it's possible (like Joey in VA said in another thread) that there is something wrong with the way we scout offensive line talent. Maybe something needs to be done there.
and Hankins intent better, maybe they could've used the $10M or so they held for him for months and months and months to find someone who might be better for the OL?
Whitworth is aging, but so is Eli and he signed for less guaranteed money than his deal would indicate. There might not have been too many FA OL studs this offseason, but you don't exactly need a pro-bowler to improve this bunch.
in round two and I would have gone all in trying to acquire Joe Thomas from Browns. Moton could play RG and flip Flowers over to RT. Thomas-Pugh-Richburg-Moton-Flowers.
The poor state of the offensive line is nothing new. Its been a mess for years, and the past 2 years have seen little change to the starting line up - if any at all.
The biggest problem is that they don't know how to evaluate OL. Â
Apparently the way they evaluate them needs to be revamped. It seems that they get too enamored with the wrong characteristics. It doesn't matter if it is rookies in the draft or FAs that need to be signed.
they should have massively overpaid for Joe Thomas and hope he remembered how to get to the stadium on game days.
He was actually able to recall all 18 QB's that he's played with during his career which was pretty impressive. Something tells me they rehearsed that bit before filming it, though...
Anyway. I agree with those who think it may be a talent evaluation issue. I think that's the most likely case.
A few of the staples in our lines that were really good were guys who were found later on and weren't 1st rd picks or premium FA's. That's good talent eval. Seems to be missing under this regime.
I actually think Reese is a fantastic talent evaluator for the most part - but it seems like he knows WR's, defensive linemen and DB's best and probably not offensive linemen quite as well.
in evaluating O linemen. The line is not bad because Reese "ignored" it. They invested some high draft picks that just did not pan out. That can be because of scouting or coaching, or some combination of both.
Or you can listen to some of the posters on this site who believe that the line may be just peachy this year because last year and this preseason don't tell you anything about their talent or ability.
in round two and I would have gone all in trying to acquire Joe Thomas from Browns. Moton could play RG and flip Flowers over to RT. Thomas-Pugh-Richburg-Moton-Flowers.
It's a win now league and Eli window is closing.
And what would you be willing to give up for Joe Thomas? The Browns have no interest in trading him, why would they? Still one of the best OLT's in the game, on a reasonable contract, NYG would have to blow CLE away with an offer.
This is what annoys me with the "what I would do" scenarios - they ultimately involve transactions that are simply not going to happen.
His contract was doable, and was short term low guaranteed. Â
Andrew Whitworth signed a $33.75 million contract with the Rams. Whitworth received $15 million in guaranteed salary including a $5 million signing bonus.
Fact is: bad Oline drafting is haunting the Giants. It's as simple as that.
You can patch 1 or 2 positions (rarely LT since it's such a premium position), but it's basically impossible to "patch" 4 Oline positions via FA/trades, especially in the short term.
So we're left with the Giants having a full four question marks lining up in front of their 36 year old immobile QB.
Least bad course probably would have been to part with some draft picks to bring that 4 down to 2. Far from ideal, but 2017's offense again looks on a course toward anemic unless significant progress is made.
has 2 first round picks and a high second round pick so the assertion that the Giants have not tried to address the O-Line is misguided. The more appropriate criticism is the front office's ability to identify good talent and the draft just not falling the Giants way. The last 2 years, the Giants were projected to take Sherff and Conklin but both were picked prior to the Giants selecting. Unfortunately for the Giants, both have become pro bowlers while Flowers continues to struggle. In 2014, Lewan went ahead of the Giants and the Giants passed on Martin for OBJ. None of us would choose differently in 2014, but again, there are 4 pro bowl linemen that were linked to the Giants that either by luck or choice did not end up on the Giants.
This is all we have. It's a shitty thing to say but there were no upgrades. All we can hope is to play better and try to get tougher and have better technique.
He was actually able to recall all 18 QB's that he's played with during his career which was pretty impressive. Something tells me they rehearsed that bit before filming it, though...
Anyway. I agree with those who think it may be a talent evaluation issue. I think that's the most likely case.
A few of the staples in our lines that were really good were guys who were found later on and weren't 1st rd picks or premium FA's. That's good talent eval. Seems to be missing under this regime.
I actually think Reese is a fantastic talent evaluator for the most part - but it seems like he knows WR's, defensive linemen and DB's best and probably not offensive linemen quite as well.
Seems to me that quite a few NFL teams have bad Olines. Maybe the colleges are running gimmick offenses making Oline players not prepared for the pro game.
is an absolute killer. A major, major setback. To state the obvious.
2015 seems so far to have been a middling draft and there wasn't some screaming value that NYG should have snagged instead at that spot which is maybe a small consolation. In addition to then drafting the best or 2nd best SS in the NFL.
many people believe there is some truth to that. The college games run so many plays from the shotgun (or pistol) and call on OL to pass block the majority of the time, that run blocking is considered to be a deteriorating skill. Not only that, but it often makes the evaluation of prospects tougher because a guy can look great pass blocking and then not get any movement when trying to open up holes in teh running game.
hindsight is 20:20, but I would have invested more premium picks on OLine over the years.
This past offseason is not the problem. Lack of investment over many years is. In 9 years between 2004 and 2012, a grand total of 2 premium picks (Snee, Beatty) were spent on OL. This left a dearth of talent. The 3 picks since 2013 (Pugh, Richberg, Flowers) simply haven’t filled the void.
In my opinion Bernie this is not misguided at all. The Giants simply haven’t invested enough in the OL. Now, there could be merit to the idea that recent OL drafting resulted in bad choices, but that’s not the sole factor at all.
Has MOSTLY been about building the OL through FA. They've been far more successful building their OLs that way -- which is easier with established vets.
Sadly, there was no great FA OL options this offseason. People were overpaying for mediocre talent. I'm OK that they skipped that.
They never seem willing to trade for one.
Their OL draft picks other than Diehl and Snee have been rather hit or miss. The last two 1st round OTs seem destined to play OG. That's not good.
The team's tried to address the issue and failed. Far too much has been invested for such mediocre results.
This is why I don't agree with the "Reese ignored the OL" crowd.
He didn't ignore it - the problem is that the guys he's bringing in aren't panning out.
Two firsts and a second should yield an average line. I think in 2011 - when the line was also terrible for the entire regular season - we had the second most cap space dedicated to the OL. They've invested. They just haven't panned out. So I don't have any specific criticism for this past off-season, but the Giants have not made a cognizant risk of underinvesting in the OL to benefit other positions - they've just not done well with their investments.
The fact that Jerry has neglected the o-line for 5 years or
The fact that he did address it for 5 years but it kept getting worse!
Because if the second choice is true and he can't fix it in 5 years than he never can!
LOL, again with the "neglecting" bullshit.
Since when is spending two first round picks, a 2nd rd pick, and signing multiple players considered "neglecting" the OL.
If you want to say the players he chose haven't been good enough, it's a fair criticism. But enough with this fucking bullshit narrative already. It's simply not true.
was a tough break as well. He is already an elite tackle. Not that one should be disappointed that Eli Apple is a Giant.
.
They could have moved up two spots to get him,
if they wanted to. They do allow teams to maneuver around
their draft position, especially in the first round.
That's something he can do something about, just saying.
I have to laugh when i see things like it's been a problem since '11 Â
Second, how long do OLines play together? The great Line of '07 was only together for about 4 years. Seubert, due to injuries just became a starter in '07 (and there was no guarantee he was going to overcome his injury).
2 out of 5 (Seubert and O'hara) from the '07 team were retired before '11. A third (McKenzie) retired the offseason after '11.
Rebuilding was ongoing. It is ALWAYS ongoing by necessity. But even if we had miraculously and more effectively rebuilt the line by '12, we would've had to rebuild it again, at least partially by '17.
The '07 line was constructed of guys with at least 3-4 years experience. And most people know, colleges aren't developing OLmen like they used to. Call me nuts, but I'm not ready to call a couple 23 year olds and a 24 year old - busts - yet.
was a tough break as well. He is already an elite tackle. Not that one should be disappointed that Eli Apple is a Giant.
.
They could have moved up two spots to get him,
if they wanted to. They do allow teams to maneuver around
their draft position, especially in the first round.
That's something he can do something about, just saying.
There isn't a magic "move up 2 spots" button. You need a willing trade partner. People just assume teams can move wherever they want to in the draft. It doesn't work like that.
but were going on four years and it still isn't fixed. It still remains in flux and it seems no closer to being settled, despite all the investments that have been made.
Its clear Reese places priority on certain positions WR,DB,QB, and DE. Look at the 2008 and 2009 drafts. In 2008, he used a 1st round pick on Kenny Phillips S and a 2nd on Terrell Thomas CB. In 2009, he took Hakeem Nicks WR in the first and used a third rounder ob Ramsese Barden WR. He has not used more than one premium pick per draft on the OL. Going into next year he is going to have to cluster draft for the OL simply because of expiring contracts and the likelihood of limited cap space.
What would I have done this year? I probably would have assumed more risk at the DT position and probably would not have drafted Tomlinson or I would not have selected Webb in the third. Not that I think Tomlinson will be a bad pick but with Thomas and Bromley on the roster, needs on the OL, and the possibility that I might not be able to re-sign my best lineman or my C, I would have taken an interior OL as insurance. Maybe I'd have taken a DT later, especially since there seems to be a carousel at the DT position.
Next year is going to be really interesting with regard to the OL. we now have two different OL coaches and the results seem unchanged. Maybe we need to hire an outside consultant to reevaluate how we judge OL talent. Maybe Reese needs to adjust his philosophies. Whatever it is, existing approached don't seem to be paying dividends
the Giants won 2 f*ing Super Bowls during those years! With 2/5 different OL!
Even if we had invested more high draft picks between those years, most of them would be out of the league by now (avg. nfl career isn't long) or they wouldn't have developed fast enough and so many BBIers would've called them busts before the start of their 3rd seasons.
You have to draft good young players on the OL. So far what we have drafted we have missed on. Tampa missed on a 2nd round kicker what did they do? Cut his ass and move on. We never have the urgency to improve. EE (as good as he might get) shouldn't have been the pick. I hope I'm wrong, but this will haunt us all year. We need to score 25+ points a game regularly.
RE: I have to laugh when i see things like it's been a problem since '11 Â
Second, how long do OLines play together? The great Line of '07 was only together for about 4 years. Seubert, due to injuries just became a starter in '07 (and there was no guarantee he was going to overcome his injury).
2 out of 5 (Seubert and O'hara) from the '07 team were retired before '11. A third (McKenzie) retired the offseason after '11.
Rebuilding was ongoing. It is ALWAYS ongoing by necessity. But even if we had miraculously and more effectively rebuilt the line by '12, we would've had to rebuild it again, at least partially by '17.
The '07 line was constructed of guys with at least 3-4 years experience. And most people know, colleges aren't developing OLmen like they used to. Call me nuts, but I'm not ready to call a couple 23 year olds and a 24 year old - busts - yet.
Winning the SB in 2011 doesn't mean the OL wasn't bad.
was a tough break as well. He is already an elite tackle. Not that one should be disappointed that Eli Apple is a Giant.
.
They could have moved up two spots to get him,
if they wanted to. They do allow teams to maneuver around
their draft position, especially in the first round.
That's something he can do something about, just saying.
There isn't a magic "move up 2 spots" button. You need a willing trade partner. People just assume teams can move wherever they want to in the draft. It doesn't work like that.
.
I'm aware of that, it happens more than you think.
That is just an example, the forecasters on Conklin
had it right, the Titans were really interested in him.
The Giants in general, tend to stay where they are for the
most part in the draft. I know, Landon Collins, saying
for the most part, that's what they are known to do,
and the rest of the league tends to know that as well.
I am not really knocking them, it's their reality.
than this offseason. We waited to long to address the o-line, and now we're struggling.
What happened to our offensive line didn't happen overnight, it began in 2009 and we never adequately addressed it until we hit rock bottom in 2013. By then, it was too late and we've never really recovered.
It all started when we noticed a 30% drop in our rushing capabilities post Plaxico season and we kept Snee and Ohara around too long (total fu.. up on depth development). Anything that Reese has done to this point is incompetent. Maybe they should ask Eli to give back some of his contract to bring an NFL ready linemen(s).
Reminds me of the Colts when Peyton was there, everything was weak around him except him and the receivers.
The whole thread and not one indictment of the coaching Â
We have knowledgeable people writing that JR can judge WR's , DE's, D.T's, CB's and Safety's but somehow he doesn't know shine from shinola when it comes to the Off. Line.
Coaching has to be at least on the short list. Richenberg rates as a no. 2, has demonstrated skill, committment and a bit of nasty. The kid looks worse very year but coaching isn't mentioned.
IN TC's last year a wounded rookie Flowers looks better than a healty Flowers two years later. is it fair to consider coaching?
We pick up Marshall, Ellison, Evan E and Shepard goes into his anticipated 2nd. year growth and the offense looks worse.... Let me turn the queston: how is that possible with good caoching.
Hart and Flowers work all off season and don't get better at age 22. That's barely possible.
The line has continuity and = as of this writing looks worse that van't happen unless there's bad coaching .
I could on and on. But the 2015 team wiht Randall and Jenkins, and an injured rooke Flowers, a rookie center, and virtually no tight end was better than this unit.
I'm not sure that's consclusive, but it's a fair indictment and why the man continues to hold onto the clipboard serves almost as a confimraton.
RE: The whole thread and not one indictment of the coaching Â
I could on and on. But the 2015 team wiht Randall and Jenkins, and an injured rooke Flowers, a rookie center, and virtually no tight end was better than this unit.
I'm not sure that's consclusive, but it's a fair indictment and why the man continues to hold onto the clipboard serves almost as a confimraton.
Fact is: bad Oline drafting is haunting the Giants. It's as simple as that.
You can patch 1 or 2 positions (rarely LT since it's such a premium position), but it's basically impossible to "patch" 4 Oline positions via FA/trades, especially in the short term.
So we're left with the Giants having a full four question marks lining up in front of their 36 year old immobile QB.
Least bad course probably would have been to part with some draft picks to bring that 4 down to 2. Far from ideal, but 2017's offense again looks on a course toward anemic unless significant progress is made.
Exactly. But its the bad drafting/free agent signings who have been here forever. John Jerry will be on year 10 with the Giants before he’s done with his career.
I know the OL wasn't as good in '11 as it was in '07-08 Â
the run game wasn't good most of the season, but came on late.
The point is that it was good enough and that the line was being rebuilt. We had 3 new starters in '12 vs. '10.
There are only so many draft picks and only so much salary cap dollars.
And even if we had completely rebuilt the line by '12, it most likely would've had to be rebuilt again, at least partially by '17. How many teams have lines with 5 starters together for more than 4-5 years?
I could on and on. But the 2015 team wiht Randall and Jenkins, and an injured rooke Flowers, a rookie center, and virtually no tight end was better than this unit.
I'm not sure that's consclusive, but it's a fair indictment and why the man continues to hold onto the clipboard serves almost as a confimraton.
we should've cut Snee and Diehl before 2011 (as if it's guaranteed we still would've won the SB).. or immediately after.. and that we should've had studs waiting to take their place.. and somehow that would have some major effect on our OL in 2017.
Most OLs age in dog years. What happened in '09-10 has little to no effect on what's happening in '17.
we should've cut Snee and Diehl before 2011 (as if it's guaranteed we still would've won the SB).. or immediately after.. and that we should've had studs waiting to take their place.. and somehow that would have some major effect on our OL in 2017.
Most OLs age in dog years. What happened in '09-10 has little to no effect on what's happening in '17.
No one is saying that at all. The OL was an absolute disaster in 2013 and the Giants made a number of picks since then to try to solve the issue. And it simply hasn't worked. The point about 09-10 is that this has been an issue that needed addressing and hasn't been solved for nearly eight years - not that solving in 2011 would mean it's still solved today.
Yeah but Reese did a pretty awful job at replacing the 2007 line guys when they got older in 2009-2010. That is what his job is, making sure he has the best team out there. He has failed to put a decent line out there, year after year.
They’ve been awful ever since, with 2010 being the last year they had a respectful running game, within the top 10. Ever since its been mediocre at best, where the big games have come in garbage time/games on the feet of Andre Williams and Rashad Jennings. In 2012, I actually thought Sean Locklear did a pretty great job on the line until he hurt his knee vs Washington in the Monday nighter. The rest is (bad) history. Just amazing that some of these guys are getting paid to suck this much at their job and not only that but they still stick around for a couple of years. As for "who to get" and who makes it better? I don't know. I hardly pay attention to the league anymore.
Yeah but Reese did a pretty awful job at replacing the 2007 line guys when they got older in 2009-2010. That is what his job is, making sure he has the best team out there. He has failed to put a decent line out there, year after year.
They’ve been awful ever since, with 2010 being the last year they had a respectful running game, within the top 10. Ever since its been mediocre at best, where the big games have come in garbage time/games on the feet of Andre Williams and Rashad Jennings. In 2012, I actually thought Sean Locklear did a pretty great job on the line until he hurt his knee vs Washington in the Monday nighter. The rest is (bad) history. Just amazing that some of these guys are getting paid to suck this much at their job and not only that but they still stick around for a couple of years. As for "who to get" and who makes it better? I don't know. I hardly pay attention to the league anymore.
I thought the line was okay in 2012 when Locklear was in. I think TC was to blame for putting Diehl in over him (when healthy).
I don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either. Â
But I'll say this, if Flowers were drafted that high by New England, he would not be starting at left tackle with the way he's performing. Heck, he might not be starting at all.
I would have created competition and st the tone that no position Â
Is secure. Every spot up for grabs. Pugh wants to get paid? EF is not locked into LT spot. If he can't handle it a move to right or guard is open. Jerry and Heart have you compete as well. Have to beat out Fluker not just handed. Let Wheeler Jones and Gettis also compete.
The message would be out- perform or we will find someone else. And don't think because you are the lesser of multiple evils you have any guarantees. I'd be watching the roster cuts. Even possible trade is in play. Philadelphia would have those options open, and so would I. Teams eying top flight QB in next years draft may be more open than usual. I would not make a bad deal but the word would be out and I would be willing to listen.
Bottom line, no more kid glove excuses. This team has potential but the status quo from this group could ruin it for everyone. No stone left unturned. Set the message the bar is raised. Perform or be replaced.
While I agree with your overall premise, the issue is that we simply don't have the bodies to do that in a way that people would take seriously.
I doubt any of these guys are worried about guys like Brett Jones or Adam Gettis taking their jobs.
It's a personnel issue more than anything else.
I've keyed on line in the two PS games. Jerry and Richburg should not take anyone lightly. If you accept that EF is competing with Pugh and or Wheeler for LT than EF is in the mix for RT and G. And if he excelled elsewhere I would be open to settling for a strength somewhere.
I thought Fluker outplayed Jerry in game 1. Game 2 I'm only through his first series but looked okay. When considering guys like Wheeler or Fluker you have to remember, they are new to the system and don't have the benefit of building continuity the others have. Guys like EF and Jerry are afforded developing chemistry and improving technique despite two years to develop it yet if a backup makes a mistake they are written off as no good. If Wheeler could even hold the fort on the left it could open up opportunity for Flowrs in another spot where he might excel. Both Pugh and Richburg switched changed at a point. Who knows, we may be wasting EF potential elsewhere. And Fluker at least brings something to the table in running game that is sorely missed in Jerry and much néeded, IMO.
Again, I'm not making the case for any of these players. But with a line that has a track record as this I am certainly open to such considerations. And at the very least I am setting a clear message about what is needed. And competition can help even if it doesn't result in change. Competition is a good thing. Plus as I said, from a GM standpoint I leave no stone unturned. Philly always seems to find a way to make a deal that makes them better. That is not the way for this team, but the question asked is what would I do and in that regard I would leave no stone unturned. As mentioned the status quo jus may cost an otherwise promising team the season.
It's a damn shame the OL is going to wreck this season Â
All offseason and it was certainly doable. Fancy toys are nice but games are won in the trenches. We made our bed. Nothing we can do now. We either get stark improvement from one of the worst lines in football from 2016 or we aren't going to be competing for a championship. I personally would have hedged my bets better.
To sign Whitworth or Zeitler in large part by not signing Marshall and cutting Thomas.
And then we'd have threads complaining Eli has the line but other than OBJ,no weapons. We saw how the O struggled last year when D's kept a safety deep, bracketed OBJ, and dared the Guants to beat them with other players.
There's always going to be a glass half empty mentality with some fans.
When Eli has had time, he has made guys like Smith, Manningham, Boss, and Ballard household names. This was a deep TE draft. We could have taken Lamp round 1 and found a TE later.
RE: RE: They could have cobbled the mother together Â
To sign Whitworth or Zeitler in large part by not signing Marshall and cutting Thomas.
And then we'd have threads complaining Eli has the line but other than OBJ,no weapons. We saw how the O struggled last year when D's kept a safety deep, bracketed OBJ, and dared the Guants to beat them with other players.
There's always going to be a glass half empty mentality with some fans.
When Eli has had time, he has made guys like Smith, Manningham, Boss, and Ballard household names. This was a deep TE draft. We could have taken Lamp round 1 and found a TE later.
Well they averaged 19 points a game last year with the same OL and D's concentrating on OBJ. A better line and who exactly was Eli going to make better? Other than Shepard getting his catches,no one else was getting it done. Certainly not the TE's or Victor. Plus, let's not forget missing Vereen for most of the year.
How many posts did we have about 11 personnel, not figuring out how to beat two deep safties, and the need for another outside threat? They've got more weapons now, and even if we get the same OL play,it stands to reason with more weapons, they'll score more points,IMO.
At worst we'll still have a shitty run game but at least be able to attack on the other side with Marshall, and the seam with Engram, and hopefully not be as predictable by using the same 11personnel 90% of the time.
Different strokes, I guess but I certainly can understand the Giants going for more weapons and thinking the OL will improve some or at worst not get worse, vs expecting a rookie OL to come in and be an upgrade over what they have.
I just mentioned that Marshall was signed for peanuts Â
There is a real world where you sign Whitworth, Marshall, Ellison... draft Lamp and maybe take somebody like Bucky Hodges or Jake Butt later on in the 4th/5th to groom at TE.
Either way, the o line is a thousand times more important than a 3rd receiving weapon They affect the entire running game which is nonexistent and everything Eli does. Victor Cruz was finished last year. I seem to remember Tavares King getting separation when he was in games last year. It wouldnt have been the end of the world.
Was guard Quinton Nelson from ND. He went back to school for his senior season. I've heard alot of talking heads say you don't take a guard in the 1st round, but I never understood that. They were saying the same thing about safties when we took William Joseph over Ed Reed.
What happened to our offensive line didn't happen overnight, it began in 2009 and we never adequately addressed it until we hit rock bottom in 2013. By then, it was too late and we've never really recovered.
Alternatively, it's possible (like Joey in VA said in another thread) that there is something wrong with the way we scout offensive line talent. Maybe something needs to be done there.
Whitworth is aging, but so is Eli and he signed for less guaranteed money than his deal would indicate. There might not have been too many FA OL studs this offseason, but you don't exactly need a pro-bowler to improve this bunch.
Pugh is probably the best they have in the group, but I probably wouldn't be able to tell you his name if he played for any other team.
It's a win now league and Eli window is closing.
As mentioned above, this goes back to 2011 if not at least a year or two before that. As for the bitching, I'll wait until the regular season starts.
If it continues starting September 10 in Dallas, then it will be interesting to see what transpires.
He was actually able to recall all 18 QB's that he's played with during his career which was pretty impressive. Something tells me they rehearsed that bit before filming it, though...
Anyway. I agree with those who think it may be a talent evaluation issue. I think that's the most likely case.
A few of the staples in our lines that were really good were guys who were found later on and weren't 1st rd picks or premium FA's. That's good talent eval. Seems to be missing under this regime.
I actually think Reese is a fantastic talent evaluator for the most part - but it seems like he knows WR's, defensive linemen and DB's best and probably not offensive linemen quite as well.
Or you can listen to some of the posters on this site who believe that the line may be just peachy this year because last year and this preseason don't tell you anything about their talent or ability.
It's a win now league and Eli window is closing.
And what would you be willing to give up for Joe Thomas? The Browns have no interest in trading him, why would they? Still one of the best OLT's in the game, on a reasonable contract, NYG would have to blow CLE away with an offer.
This is what annoys me with the "what I would do" scenarios - they ultimately involve transactions that are simply not going to happen.
Link - ( New Window )
Fact is: bad Oline drafting is haunting the Giants. It's as simple as that.
You can patch 1 or 2 positions (rarely LT since it's such a premium position), but it's basically impossible to "patch" 4 Oline positions via FA/trades, especially in the short term.
So we're left with the Giants having a full four question marks lining up in front of their 36 year old immobile QB.
Least bad course probably would have been to part with some draft picks to bring that 4 down to 2. Far from ideal, but 2017's offense again looks on a course toward anemic unless significant progress is made.
...Jerry Reese tried to solve it with 2 first round picks and a second. And throw in a couple of free agents.
He swung-and-missed.
Badly.
OL: What would you have done as GM? - ( New Window )
This is why I don't agree with the "Reese ignored the OL" crowd.
He didn't ignore it - the problem is that the guys he's bringing in aren't panning out.
we took OBJ over Martin
Scherff was gone and we took flowers
Yep, and my thoughts on that thread are pretty consistent with what they are now.
He was actually able to recall all 18 QB's that he's played with during his career which was pretty impressive. Something tells me they rehearsed that bit before filming it, though...
Anyway. I agree with those who think it may be a talent evaluation issue. I think that's the most likely case.
A few of the staples in our lines that were really good were guys who were found later on and weren't 1st rd picks or premium FA's. That's good talent eval. Seems to be missing under this regime.
I actually think Reese is a fantastic talent evaluator for the most part - but it seems like he knows WR's, defensive linemen and DB's best and probably not offensive linemen quite as well.
Seems to me that quite a few NFL teams have bad Olines. Maybe the colleges are running gimmick offenses making Oline players not prepared for the pro game.
2015 seems so far to have been a middling draft and there wasn't some screaming value that NYG should have snagged instead at that spot which is maybe a small consolation. In addition to then drafting the best or 2nd best SS in the NFL.
"Mediocre Results" would be an upgrade.
This past offseason is not the problem. Lack of investment over many years is. In 9 years between 2004 and 2012, a grand total of 2 premium picks (Snee, Beatty) were spent on OL. This left a dearth of talent. The 3 picks since 2013 (Pugh, Richberg, Flowers) simply haven’t filled the void.
In my opinion Bernie this is not misguided at all. The Giants simply haven’t invested enough in the OL. Now, there could be merit to the idea that recent OL drafting resulted in bad choices, but that’s not the sole factor at all.
Sadly, there was no great FA OL options this offseason. People were overpaying for mediocre talent. I'm OK that they skipped that.
They never seem willing to trade for one.
Their OL draft picks other than Diehl and Snee have been rather hit or miss. The last two 1st round OTs seem destined to play OG. That's not good.
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The team's tried to address the issue and failed. Far too much has been invested for such mediocre results.
This is why I don't agree with the "Reese ignored the OL" crowd.
He didn't ignore it - the problem is that the guys he's bringing in aren't panning out.
Two firsts and a second should yield an average line. I think in 2011 - when the line was also terrible for the entire regular season - we had the second most cap space dedicated to the OL. They've invested. They just haven't panned out. So I don't have any specific criticism for this past off-season, but the Giants have not made a cognizant risk of underinvesting in the OL to benefit other positions - they've just not done well with their investments.
The fact that he did address it for 5 years but it kept getting worse!
Because if the second choice is true and he can't fix it in 5 years than he never can!
The fact that he did address it for 5 years but it kept getting worse!
Because if the second choice is true and he can't fix it in 5 years than he never can!
LOL, again with the "neglecting" bullshit.
Since when is spending two first round picks, a 2nd rd pick, and signing multiple players considered "neglecting" the OL.
If you want to say the players he chose haven't been good enough, it's a fair criticism. But enough with this fucking bullshit narrative already. It's simply not true.
They could have moved up two spots to get him,
if they wanted to. They do allow teams to maneuver around
their draft position, especially in the first round.
That's something he can do something about, just saying.
Second, how long do OLines play together? The great Line of '07 was only together for about 4 years. Seubert, due to injuries just became a starter in '07 (and there was no guarantee he was going to overcome his injury).
2 out of 5 (Seubert and O'hara) from the '07 team were retired before '11. A third (McKenzie) retired the offseason after '11.
Rebuilding was ongoing. It is ALWAYS ongoing by necessity. But even if we had miraculously and more effectively rebuilt the line by '12, we would've had to rebuild it again, at least partially by '17.
The '07 line was constructed of guys with at least 3-4 years experience. And most people know, colleges aren't developing OLmen like they used to. Call me nuts, but I'm not ready to call a couple 23 year olds and a 24 year old - busts - yet.
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was a tough break as well. He is already an elite tackle. Not that one should be disappointed that Eli Apple is a Giant.
.
They could have moved up two spots to get him,
if they wanted to. They do allow teams to maneuver around
their draft position, especially in the first round.
That's something he can do something about, just saying.
There isn't a magic "move up 2 spots" button. You need a willing trade partner. People just assume teams can move wherever they want to in the draft. It doesn't work like that.
Its clear Reese places priority on certain positions WR,DB,QB, and DE. Look at the 2008 and 2009 drafts. In 2008, he used a 1st round pick on Kenny Phillips S and a 2nd on Terrell Thomas CB. In 2009, he took Hakeem Nicks WR in the first and used a third rounder ob Ramsese Barden WR. He has not used more than one premium pick per draft on the OL. Going into next year he is going to have to cluster draft for the OL simply because of expiring contracts and the likelihood of limited cap space.
What would I have done this year? I probably would have assumed more risk at the DT position and probably would not have drafted Tomlinson or I would not have selected Webb in the third. Not that I think Tomlinson will be a bad pick but with Thomas and Bromley on the roster, needs on the OL, and the possibility that I might not be able to re-sign my best lineman or my C, I would have taken an interior OL as insurance. Maybe I'd have taken a DT later, especially since there seems to be a carousel at the DT position.
Next year is going to be really interesting with regard to the OL. we now have two different OL coaches and the results seem unchanged. Maybe we need to hire an outside consultant to reevaluate how we judge OL talent. Maybe Reese needs to adjust his philosophies. Whatever it is, existing approached don't seem to be paying dividends
Even if we had invested more high draft picks between those years, most of them would be out of the league by now (avg. nfl career isn't long) or they wouldn't have developed fast enough and so many BBIers would've called them busts before the start of their 3rd seasons.
EXTREMELY tough break. We would have at least solidified one position with Conklin.
Second, how long do OLines play together? The great Line of '07 was only together for about 4 years. Seubert, due to injuries just became a starter in '07 (and there was no guarantee he was going to overcome his injury).
2 out of 5 (Seubert and O'hara) from the '07 team were retired before '11. A third (McKenzie) retired the offseason after '11.
Rebuilding was ongoing. It is ALWAYS ongoing by necessity. But even if we had miraculously and more effectively rebuilt the line by '12, we would've had to rebuild it again, at least partially by '17.
The '07 line was constructed of guys with at least 3-4 years experience. And most people know, colleges aren't developing OLmen like they used to. Call me nuts, but I'm not ready to call a couple 23 year olds and a 24 year old - busts - yet.
Winning the SB in 2011 doesn't mean the OL wasn't bad.
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In comment 13568999 Overseer said:
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was a tough break as well. He is already an elite tackle. Not that one should be disappointed that Eli Apple is a Giant.
.
They could have moved up two spots to get him,
if they wanted to. They do allow teams to maneuver around
their draft position, especially in the first round.
That's something he can do something about, just saying.
There isn't a magic "move up 2 spots" button. You need a willing trade partner. People just assume teams can move wherever they want to in the draft. It doesn't work like that.
I'm aware of that, it happens more than you think.
That is just an example, the forecasters on Conklin
had it right, the Titans were really interested in him.
The Giants in general, tend to stay where they are for the
most part in the draft. I know, Landon Collins, saying
for the most part, that's what they are known to do,
and the rest of the league tends to know that as well.
I am not really knocking them, it's their reality.
No one says it's impossible - but you still need a trade partner and a feasible scenario. The Giants pretty clearly liked Conklin.
Move Flowers to RT last year. Instant upgrade all across the line.
What happened to our offensive line didn't happen overnight, it began in 2009 and we never adequately addressed it until we hit rock bottom in 2013. By then, it was too late and we've never really recovered.
It all started when we noticed a 30% drop in our rushing capabilities post Plaxico season and we kept Snee and Ohara around too long (total fu.. up on depth development). Anything that Reese has done to this point is incompetent. Maybe they should ask Eli to give back some of his contract to bring an NFL ready linemen(s).
Reminds me of the Colts when Peyton was there, everything was weak around him except him and the receivers.
Coaching has to be at least on the short list. Richenberg rates as a no. 2, has demonstrated skill, committment and a bit of nasty. The kid looks worse very year but coaching isn't mentioned.
IN TC's last year a wounded rookie Flowers looks better than a healty Flowers two years later. is it fair to consider coaching?
We pick up Marshall, Ellison, Evan E and Shepard goes into his anticipated 2nd. year growth and the offense looks worse.... Let me turn the queston: how is that possible with good caoching.
Hart and Flowers work all off season and don't get better at age 22. That's barely possible.
The line has continuity and = as of this writing looks worse that van't happen unless there's bad coaching .
I could on and on. But the 2015 team wiht Randall and Jenkins, and an injured rooke Flowers, a rookie center, and virtually no tight end was better than this unit.
I'm not sure that's consclusive, but it's a fair indictment and why the man continues to hold onto the clipboard serves almost as a confimraton.
I'm not sure that's consclusive, but it's a fair indictment and why the man continues to hold onto the clipboard serves almost as a confimraton.
Who the hell are "Randall and Jenkins" ?
Fact is: bad Oline drafting is haunting the Giants. It's as simple as that.
You can patch 1 or 2 positions (rarely LT since it's such a premium position), but it's basically impossible to "patch" 4 Oline positions via FA/trades, especially in the short term.
So we're left with the Giants having a full four question marks lining up in front of their 36 year old immobile QB.
Least bad course probably would have been to part with some draft picks to bring that 4 down to 2. Far from ideal, but 2017's offense again looks on a course toward anemic unless significant progress is made.
Exactly. But its the bad drafting/free agent signings who have been here forever. John Jerry will be on year 10 with the Giants before he’s done with his career.
The point is that it was good enough and that the line was being rebuilt. We had 3 new starters in '12 vs. '10.
There are only so many draft picks and only so much salary cap dollars.
And even if we had completely rebuilt the line by '12, it most likely would've had to be rebuilt again, at least partially by '17. How many teams have lines with 5 starters together for more than 4-5 years?
Unfortunately DrKenneth was unceremoniously suspended a few months back after 20 years of service to BBI. But he still raises the same question.
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I could on and on. But the 2015 team wiht Randall and Jenkins, and an injured rooke Flowers, a rookie center, and virtually no tight end was better than this unit.
I'm not sure that's consclusive, but it's a fair indictment and why the man continues to hold onto the clipboard serves almost as a confimraton.
Who the hell are "Randall and Jenkins" ?
Randall? Jenkins? Don't stop him! He's on a roll!
Most OLs age in dog years. What happened in '09-10 has little to no effect on what's happening in '17.
Most OLs age in dog years. What happened in '09-10 has little to no effect on what's happening in '17.
No one is saying that at all. The OL was an absolute disaster in 2013 and the Giants made a number of picks since then to try to solve the issue. And it simply hasn't worked. The point about 09-10 is that this has been an issue that needed addressing and hasn't been solved for nearly eight years - not that solving in 2011 would mean it's still solved today.
Really? Why was DrK banned?
They’ve been awful ever since, with 2010 being the last year they had a respectful running game, within the top 10. Ever since its been mediocre at best, where the big games have come in garbage time/games on the feet of Andre Williams and Rashad Jennings. In 2012, I actually thought Sean Locklear did a pretty great job on the line until he hurt his knee vs Washington in the Monday nighter. The rest is (bad) history. Just amazing that some of these guys are getting paid to suck this much at their job and not only that but they still stick around for a couple of years. As for "who to get" and who makes it better? I don't know. I hardly pay attention to the league anymore.
They’ve been awful ever since, with 2010 being the last year they had a respectful running game, within the top 10. Ever since its been mediocre at best, where the big games have come in garbage time/games on the feet of Andre Williams and Rashad Jennings. In 2012, I actually thought Sean Locklear did a pretty great job on the line until he hurt his knee vs Washington in the Monday nighter. The rest is (bad) history. Just amazing that some of these guys are getting paid to suck this much at their job and not only that but they still stick around for a couple of years. As for "who to get" and who makes it better? I don't know. I hardly pay attention to the league anymore.
I thought the line was okay in 2012 when Locklear was in. I think TC was to blame for putting Diehl in over him (when healthy).
The message would be out- perform or we will find someone else. And don't think because you are the lesser of multiple evils you have any guarantees. I'd be watching the roster cuts. Even possible trade is in play. Philadelphia would have those options open, and so would I. Teams eying top flight QB in next years draft may be more open than usual. I would not make a bad deal but the word would be out and I would be willing to listen.
Bottom line, no more kid glove excuses. This team has potential but the status quo from this group could ruin it for everyone. No stone left unturned. Set the message the bar is raised. Perform or be replaced.
I doubt any of these guys are worried about guys like Brett Jones or Adam Gettis taking their jobs.
It's a personnel issue more than anything else.
I doubt any of these guys are worried about guys like Brett Jones or Adam Gettis taking their jobs.
It's a personnel issue more than anything else.
I thought Fluker outplayed Jerry in game 1. Game 2 I'm only through his first series but looked okay. When considering guys like Wheeler or Fluker you have to remember, they are new to the system and don't have the benefit of building continuity the others have. Guys like EF and Jerry are afforded developing chemistry and improving technique despite two years to develop it yet if a backup makes a mistake they are written off as no good. If Wheeler could even hold the fort on the left it could open up opportunity for Flowrs in another spot where he might excel. Both Pugh and Richburg switched changed at a point. Who knows, we may be wasting EF potential elsewhere. And Fluker at least brings something to the table in running game that is sorely missed in Jerry and much néeded, IMO.
Again, I'm not making the case for any of these players. But with a line that has a track record as this I am certainly open to such considerations. And at the very least I am setting a clear message about what is needed. And competition can help even if it doesn't result in change. Competition is a good thing. Plus as I said, from a GM standpoint I leave no stone unturned. Philly always seems to find a way to make a deal that makes them better. That is not the way for this team, but the question asked is what would I do and in that regard I would leave no stone unturned. As mentioned the status quo jus may cost an otherwise promising team the season.
And then we'd have threads complaining Eli has the line but other than OBJ,no weapons. We saw how the O struggled last year when D's kept a safety deep, bracketed OBJ, and dared the Guants to beat them with other players.
There's always going to be a glass half empty mentality with some fans.
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To sign Whitworth or Zeitler in large part by not signing Marshall and cutting Thomas.
And then we'd have threads complaining Eli has the line but other than OBJ,no weapons. We saw how the O struggled last year when D's kept a safety deep, bracketed OBJ, and dared the Guants to beat them with other players.
There's always going to be a glass half empty mentality with some fans.
They drafted Engram.
Well they averaged 19 points a game last year with the same OL and D's concentrating on OBJ. A better line and who exactly was Eli going to make better? Other than Shepard getting his catches,no one else was getting it done. Certainly not the TE's or Victor. Plus, let's not forget missing Vereen for most of the year.
How many posts did we have about 11 personnel, not figuring out how to beat two deep safties, and the need for another outside threat? They've got more weapons now, and even if we get the same OL play,it stands to reason with more weapons, they'll score more points,IMO.
At worst we'll still have a shitty run game but at least be able to attack on the other side with Marshall, and the seam with Engram, and hopefully not be as predictable by using the same 11personnel 90% of the time.
Different strokes, I guess but I certainly can understand the Giants going for more weapons and thinking the OL will improve some or at worst not get worse, vs expecting a rookie OL to come in and be an upgrade over what they have.
Either way, the o line is a thousand times more important than a 3rd receiving weapon They affect the entire running game which is nonexistent and everything Eli does. Victor Cruz was finished last year. I seem to remember Tavares King getting separation when he was in games last year. It wouldnt have been the end of the world.