on the offensive line, not Flowers or Hart. I was on their show on Sirius this morning and started talking about Flowers.
Bob jumped in, saying I had bought into the media view of EF and indicating that, so far this season, the issue has been Pugh, Richburg and Jerry. DD said they are getting no push at all at the POA and are getting pushed back into the backfield. In terms of running the ball, they seemed to indicate these three are not, as yet, playing good enough.
Thoughts?
...when a 6th grader can see our o-line crashed inward on several running plays.
Jerry Reese -- 5 years and counting to fix this mess.
Exactly how many years should it take?
I laugh when folks post on here that we need a big physical RB. For what?
This OL generates no holes to run through even foe a big RB.
I am trying to remain positive but the OL just brings me down......
It's only preseason. They just need to gel. [/sarcasm]
Pugh Flowers Richburg Fluker Hart
Jones, Jerry, Gettis, Wheeler
-2
0
8
-1
1
11
0
type of running line... which is terrible for the offense.
This offense is completely hopeless if the line continues to play at this current level at the POA. It will require McAdoo becoming far, FAR more creative with offensive disguises and unpredictable play-calling to even give this team a shot of putting points on the board.
I'd like to see:
Pugh.
Flowers.
Jones.
Gettis.
Hart.
Pugh may not have the strength to play G, but was a serviceable LT. Flowers's lack of foot speed would be minimized to some extent at G, where his mauling power would also be better used. Jones has anchored well. Gettis has good feet. Hart can be helped with a FB or TE if necessary, and is only a second year player.
Many have speculated that EF projects as legitimate RG if I'm not mistaken.
Gettis and Jones have both done solid jobs in backup roles when called upon.
Pugh has experience playing LT.
I don't expect that all or any of these changes would or should be made right now, but if the interior OL is going to be in Eli's lap by the time he's handing the ball off then maybe some gradual adjustments/replacements need to be considered.
Is Pugh/Gettis/Jones/Flowers/Hart a better option?
I'm fine with that.
They've already played 32. How much do you expect things to change at this point?
I'm not worried about this OL at all IF it stays healthy. We'll pass protect well enough BUT we'll need to run LEFT really well (TE Ellison, LT Flowers, LG Pugh) this year cause we haven't got much push on the Right side.
Quote:
...when a 6th grader can see our o-line crashed inward on several running plays.
Jerry Reese -- 5 years and counting to fix this mess.
Exactly how many years should it take?
I'm not sure how many years it should take but I do know that they need to get it straightened out soon because when Eli retires, the window is officially closed.
Quote:
...when a 6th grader can see our o-line crashed inward on several running plays.
Jerry Reese -- 5 years and counting to fix this mess.
Exactly how many years should it take?
IMO, 3 at max. And if the front office knows how to evaluate O-line college and free agent talent, maybe 2.
The difference between the two is that O'Hara had an All-Pro, road-grading RG next to him in Snee. Richburg has a light blocking John Jerry next to him who is terrible at run blocking and creating any sort of push.
I know Jerry has done an decent job here and should be commended for the work hes done over the years, but the guy is a backup, flat out. The second he is done here, he will not find another starting position in the NFL. He is adequate at pass-blocking and well below average (especially for a man his size) at run-blocking. THAT is where the upgrade is needed.
At this point, for better or worse, I would like to see Fluker with the starting unit. I know he has his downsides as well, and is worse off in pass-blocking, but with how quick Eli gets rid of the ball anyways, id rather take my chances there and help the running game (which also in turn helps the passing game).
I love what I've seen as a receiver from EE but he has a long way to go in learning assignments as a blocker.
I don't think Pugh is a problem.
If I had to choose between being a solid pass protector in a passing league and a solid run blocker, I'd choose pass every time. You can't have everything.
I want to see the next 40 or so minutes of game time play (through 3rd quarter vs Jets) before evaluating the group. More importantly we'll know about this OL after game 1 vs Dallas (or during actually).
I see us as being "middle of the pack" in pass protection as a whole, which is a big jump from last year. I also see us as a "20 - 25th type in run blocking" because we don't have a right side that can really run block. But I do have faith we'll run well to the left with massive Flowers, Pugh and TE Ellison.
Jerry is a mental mistake machine, this group as a whole can be counted on to make a mistake virtually every damned play.
The difference between the two is that O'Hara had an All-Pro, road-grading RG next to him in Snee. Richburg has a light blocking John Jerry next to him who is terrible at run blocking and creating any sort of push.
I know Jerry has done an decent job here and should be commended for the work hes done over the years, but the guy is a backup, flat out. The second he is done here, he will not find another starting position in the NFL. He is adequate at pass-blocking and well below average (especially for a man his size) at run-blocking. THAT is where the upgrade is needed.
At this point, for better or worse, I would like to see Fluker with the starting unit. I know he has his downsides as well, and is worse off in pass-blocking, but with how quick Eli gets rid of the ball anyways, id rather take my chances there and help the running game (which also in turn helps the passing game).
Good point. Richburg can be fine if he has some beef next to him. The Giants appear to be too small in the middle.
Then you have to ask, if they want more athletic (smaller) lineman, then aren't they running the right schemes to take advantage of that? I thought that was why we brought in a new OL coach last year.
John Jerry does not belong on the First Team offense. I'm not sure how much I trust him to be on the second team O, either.
I haven't fallen in love with DJ Fluker yet, but I thought he was okay (not great, but okay) Monday night. Would like to see him take on some First Team DL in the next two preseason games, though.
All five OL starters are playing horrifically.
Jerry is a mental mistake machine, this group as a whole can be counted on to make a mistake virtually every damned play.
IDK why they brought Jerry back on a 3 year deal,
but they did. I guess because he was relatively cheap.
Everybody has known for years, he can't run block.
McAdoo hinted that Jones and Fluker looked okay to him
in Cleveland. Let's see if he makes changes, if things
don't improve up front.
ryanmkeane : 10:49 am : link : reply
maybe we play a game or two in the regular season first?
The consensus here was we need help for the O-line throwing in a late round rookie and signing a player that has not impressed on a one year prove it deal wasn't even a bandaid
John Jerry is a journeyman player who should be a backup
Flowers is in year #3 and still has yet to prove himself as a quality LT are best lineman Pugh is solid but unspectacular and has been banged up a few times We have a center who is tactically a good player but get's no push in the run game and tends to get over powered .
Lastly you have Bobby Hart that not one prognosticator would ever label him anything but a project as a backup
There is little else in quality as backups .
I hope that maybe a vet gets cut lose or they swing some kind of deal to get another starter . It would be difficult at best to find LT although it would be ideal
if Flowers continues to struggle .
From some preseason reviews, the best option might be:
Flowers-Jones-Richburg-Fluker-Pugh
Though I think they strongly prefer Pugh at LG due to his ability when pulling.
Richburg is being given a pass here if we ascribe his poor play two years running to injury and/or not having a Snee next to him. So, his play, anchoring the middle, is mostly contingent on who plays next to him? The question we should be asking is when does his play enable the guy next to him if he such a near-All Pro caliber guy?
Part of the problem is that Reese did try, when it was clear the Unit was a disaster, to fix the OL with the high picks: we know he is stubborn about his picks, esp. his Round 1, 2, 3 picks. He's wed to them, therefore Mac is wed to them, by default. So, Reese has to this point refused to take major steps in re-making this unit when it is clear that it is one of the League's worst.
Klaatu, five years of steadily deteriorating or non-improving play is too long. All of Eli's new toys will not have the impact we are hoping if the guys up front, who enable everything else on offense, can't get it done. JonC is a pretty patient, and almost always astute observer. Rant over, but that stretch of the game when the first unit on offense was in was very, very difficult to watch, same as Ex games last year, same as 2015, it will be same in 2017 unless there are changes.
I think Jerry is the problem. He gets pushed back ALL the time. He should be a backup player, IMO. If someone goes down, than you feel OK with Jerry coming in.
I hope the Giants have Fluker in mind to start at RG. He also has a nasty streak to him. Jerry is a finesse player. He's OK at pass protection, but brings nothing to the run game. Fluker is OK in pass protection, but brings a nastiness to the run game. This OL needs that.
I agree the problem looks like the interior -- but Hart isn't really helping at RT.
Hart to me is like a guy who's solid if everyone around him is good. He's never going to elevate the play of the OL or be able to cover for the guy next to him.
regardless of who's available and where you pick?
Quote:
In comment 13570383 M.S. said:
Quote:
...when a 6th grader can see our o-line crashed inward on several running plays.
Jerry Reese -- 5 years and counting to fix this mess.
Exactly how many years should it take?
IMO, 3 at max. And if the front office knows how to evaluate O-line college and free agent talent, maybe 2.
Jeepers, it took us around four or five years to build the last dominant O-Line we had...same for the Cowboys with their current stellar O-Line.
You could do it in three at the max, maybe two?
You should sell your magic formula to every team in the league. You'd clean up.
PaulBlakeTSU : 10:46 am : link : reply
offense is like a race car with a broken clutch. The top speed capabilities and the excellent driver are meaningless if it can never get out of first gear.
This offense is completely hopeless if the line continues to play at this current level at the POA. It will require McAdoo becoming far, FAR more creative with offensive disguises and unpredictable play-calling to even give this team a shot of putting points on the board.''
-----------
A really smart guy once compared Fassels Giants to a "Ferrari without an engine"
(due to the exact same thing, line play and effects of it ....while you do have great tools you cannot use them properly)
Quote:
...when a 6th grader can see our o-line crashed inward on several running plays.
Jerry Reese -- 5 years and counting to fix this mess.
Exactly how many years should it take?
Dallas did it in 3.
You can say it, but that doesn't make it a viable plan for building a ballclub. There are two first round picks and a second round pick playing on this offensive line right now. How's that working out?
How would we know this? From watching on TV? Richburg has been ejected from games for personal fouls.
They're not performing well, but "they're not mean enough" is amateur psychology without even knowing the personalities.
John Jerry has always been average, a combination of slightly better pass protection and terrible run blocking. This year he has proven a liability in pass protection. He is bringing down the quality of the entire offensive line, yes even the plays that go to the other side.
Take Pugh f.e. - I've constantly read here how he's a top G, and he certainly talks a good game. But how any Giants fan who just spent years watching Seubert & Snee could think Pugh was a top notch G is just incredible. He's a serviceable starter, nothing more. As Diehl & the boys are pointing out, he gets zero push. Doesn't fire off the ball with intensity.
The whole damn line plays weak outside of Flowers. You can't have 4 weaklings on the OL and expect to block ANY pro front 7. Look at Richburg's comments yesterday about no mental errors. That's the scariest thing: there is no cure for getting physically manhandled