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Giants greats agree: This defense can be better than us, if

Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/7/2017 8:01 am
This is an interesting article with input from quite a few former Giants.
Giants greats agree: This defense can be better than us, if … - ( New Window )
That s a great article  
joeinpa : 9/7/2017 8:14 am : link
I will always have a difficult time believing any defense is equal to that 86 team. Where s the L. T. ?

Maybe Collins? But in any event it s great to see these guys still care about the Giants.

Great article, Eric, and I like the point  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 9/7/2017 8:16 am : link
Collins made...what have they done yet and some guys already seeming too full of themselves. It all starts Sunday...can they shut Elliott down and put Prescott in his place.

Long way to go for this group yet but no question the talent is there.
The one thing about that D - beyond the difference in eras  
jcn56 : 9/7/2017 8:22 am : link
and the presence of the greatest defensive player of all time - was the chip on their shoulder they could play with sometimes. Granted, they also had an extremely annoying ability to play down to the level of competition at times. But others, it almost seemed personal - how many QBs did they leave in pieces on the field (looking at you, Joe)?

Would love to see the Giants D come out with a statement game after all that Elliot nonsense. Go out and just play flat out angry.
I love what this defense is doing right now...  
EricJ : 9/7/2017 8:26 am : link
I do think it is not as good as the '86 team. Other teams feared that defense and had to seriously change their offensive game plan when facing us. We also had a solid lineup from top to bottom. This team does have weaknesses at LB.
Yeah, they have a loooooong  
Giants_ROK : 9/7/2017 8:32 am : link
way to go in the LB department. Those Parcells teams had backups at LB that could start for any team in the league.

It's a damn good defense, though.
Those Parcells teams also didn't have FA and a salary cap  
jcn56 : 9/7/2017 8:35 am : link
to contend with (unless you count Plan B FA, which was a joke).

Hard to compare across eras for that reason, good teams had much better depth then than they do now.
Parcells point about  
larryflower37 : 9/7/2017 8:41 am : link
Running the ball and time of position are dead on.
The early 80's the Giants had a good defense but spent too much time on the field.
Not until the offense lead in time of possession and started to run the ball did the defense become special.

It will be the same this year, the offense need to take some pressure off the defense.

It's unfair to ask where "the LT" is of this defense  
Chris684 : 9/7/2017 8:41 am : link
simply because LT was a once in a lifetime player.

On the other hand, this defense has a bunch of guys at or near the top of the sport.

Collins and Snacks are probably the best players at their respective positions.

Jenkins, JPP and OV are right behind them in the top handful of players at their positions.

The defense is very deep and strong across all units, especially if the emergence of Goodson is real.
Eric J  
SLIM_ : 9/7/2017 8:54 am : link
I think you would have to consider Kenny Hill at safety as weak as a Casillas or Kennard. Terry Kinard also got hurt for all of the playoffs and we played with Herb Welch who was definitely a weak link.

George Martin was a very good player for years and a locker room leader but realistically, but in 1986 at age 33 would have to be considered an average player at best.




RE: Parcells point about  
Motley Two : 9/7/2017 9:08 am : link
In comment 13586904 larryflower37 said:
Quote:
Running the ball and time of position are dead on.
The early 80's the Giants had a good defense but spent too much time on the field.
Not until the offense lead in time of possession and started to run the ball did the defense become special.

It will be the same this year, the offense need to take some pressure off the defense.



Agree. Offensive line is the one unit on a team that can improve or hurt every other unit on a team. All three phases.
We are officially doomed.  
penkap75 : 9/7/2017 9:12 am : link
Giants never do well when everyone jumps on the bandwagon.
Different eras require  
fireitup77 : 9/7/2017 9:14 am : link
different types of defenses. In the run heavy 80's our D was stacked along the front seven. The LB's were the strength of the team. The secondary was pretty good but not great.

The league is very much a passing league now. Our defense is built to play today's offenses. Strong Dline and a top notch secondary.

I'll take this another step. Coming out of camp, this team is the best built team since the late 80's/1990 teams. Top to bottom there has not been a team with this much talent since then. Now it doesn't mean that they are going to win the Super Bowl. Lot's of stuff can and will happen during the season. But this team is stacked with talent. Lets hope it translates to the field.
Tuna makes a good point.  
NorwoodWideRight : 9/7/2017 9:28 am : link
It doesn't matter how good we are on defense, if the offense keeps going 3 and out, it takes a beating. This was exactly my concern last year, but our defense really stepped up and surprised me. Even when we had really good to excellent defenses, like some years under Strahan & co., this was exactly why they imploded in big games.
Chris  
joeinpa : 9/7/2017 9:28 am : link
L. T. Was a once in a lifetime player. That s my poInt!

How is it unfair to base the idea that no defense is the equal of that 86 defense on his presence.
Didn't Realize This Happened:  
OntheRoad : 9/7/2017 9:32 am : link

Banks: “In his rookie year, they threw Landon in there he played every position but defensive lineman, so he got a chance to see the offense at different angles. The next year (last season), he comes in at safety and plays at a whole different level because he understood the game so much better.’’

So Collins has already played LB and CB this defense?
The Defense can be great without  
djstat : 9/7/2017 9:46 am : link
the LT. Perhaps LT made some other talent look better then it was.
I am a big, big 1986 fan  
PatersonPlank : 9/7/2017 9:50 am : link
Having said that I don't know. When I look at this team I see a better DL and a better DB set. Now don't get me wrong, the 1986 team had a good DL and DB team, and of course their LB's were better than any team ever, but I wouldn't dismiss this out of hand.

Lets see the 2017 D do it again before we start comparing. One year does not a legend make, but they do have some talent.
RE: Tuna makes a good point.  
micky : 9/7/2017 10:08 am : link
In comment 13586960 NorwoodWideRight said:
Quote:
It doesn't matter how good we are on defense, if the offense keeps going 3 and out, it takes a beating. This was exactly my concern last year, but our defense really stepped up and surprised me. Even when we had really good to excellent defenses, like some years under Strahan & co., this was exactly why they imploded in big games.


and that's the problem..if can't run the ball efficiently, then it effects the time of possession and puts the defense at risk of being tired out later in game.

that's what I fear for Sunday night..esp with dallas ol. time of possession on offense and lots of 3 and outs. and dallas controlling time of possession. it happen last season, but luckily got big plays from obj and turnovers to counter..but it's a dangerous game to play when strictly relying on those 2 factors of happening..turnovers and the big play.

if the giants ol can block enough to set a more consistent effective running game and have good time of possession on o, then this defense will be at its best and we'll see how good they really are

I truly believe that this Giants defense  
Keith : 9/7/2017 10:11 am : link
has the POTENTIAL to be the best defense in the NFL this season. Lets start there.
RE: Eric J  
EricJ : 9/7/2017 10:15 am : link
In comment 13586914 SLIM_ said:
Quote:
I think you would have to consider Kenny Hill at safety as weak as a Casillas or Kennard. Terry Kinard also got hurt for all of the playoffs and we played with Herb Welch who was definitely a weak link.

George Martin was a very good player for years and a locker room leader but realistically, but in 1986 at age 33 would have to be considered an average player at best.



No argument with what you said. However, that to me is offset by having the greatest defensive player in history on that defense plus Carl Banks, Carson, and I would put Mark Collins up against ANY of our CBs. Yes he was better than jackrabbit. The other thing you may be missing is the number of true leaders on that defense. It was as if they did not need to be "coached".
RE: Didn't Realize This Happened:  
Beezer : 9/7/2017 10:21 am : link
In comment 13586973 OntheRoad said:
Quote:

Banks: “In his rookie year, they threw Landon in there he played every position but defensive lineman, so he got a chance to see the offense at different angles. The next year (last season), he comes in at safety and plays at a whole different level because he understood the game so much better.’’

So Collins has already played LB and CB this defense?


Not often can a player get those types of looks at different spots. Huge experience.
LT, Carson and Marshall made all pro in 86  
est1986 : 9/7/2017 10:22 am : link
Collins, Snacks, DRC, Jack Rabbit and OV made it last year and if JPP stays healthy he probably makes it too.
My recollection of the '86  
Bubba : 9/7/2017 10:26 am : link
defense was the chip they had on their shoulders after the playoff loss to the '85 Bears. I specifically recall Phil Simms saying they went into that game thinking they (Giants) were an intense team but the Bears showed them a whole new level of intensity.

Hopefully this Giants team reacts the same way.
RE: My recollection of the '86  
glowrider : 9/7/2017 10:38 am : link
In comment 13587053 Bubba said:
Quote:
defense was the chip they had on their shoulders after the playoff loss to the '85 Bears. I specifically recall Phil Simms saying they went into that game thinking they (Giants) were an intense team but the Bears showed them a whole new level of intensity.

Hopefully this Giants team reacts the same way.


This is my exact thought and I echo the sentiment. The '85 Bears had a HUGE impact on our '86 team.

Loved this quote from Big Bill: They call me more now because they think I’m getting old and something might happen. I like it.’’
Sunday becomes a statement game.  
CT Charlie : 9/7/2017 11:24 am : link
It won't determine the season, but it's our chance to set a tone. And then every game becomes a statement game.
Parcells is right.  
Klaatu : 9/7/2017 11:54 am : link
And it brings to mind the old adage, "The best defense is a good offense." Look no further than Super Bowl 25 for proof of that. Hopefully, this year the upgrades at the skill positions will make up for any deficiencies in the offensive line, at least in part. We may not be able to "pound the rock" like those 1990 Giants did (or today's Cowboys, for that matter), but that doesn't necessarily mean that our offense can't be more efficient than it was last year. We'll see.

As for our defense, the onus is on the front four to produce. Stopping the run, certainly, but they must also get more pressure on opposing QBs. JPP and OV in particular are getting paid to be game-changing difference-makers. Let's see it happen.
RE: Parcells is right.  
81_Great_Dane : 9/7/2017 12:59 pm : link
In comment 13587179 Klaatu said:
Quote:
And it brings to mind the old adage, "The best defense is a good offense."
So true, people remember the defense, but the offense won that game with time of possession. The Bills scored something like a point a minute.
My favorite Giant defense is still the 1990 team  
Go Terps : 9/7/2017 1:32 pm : link
I get that the '86 team was, basically, more violent and destructive to offenses...but the 1990 team was a complete bitch to move and score against. I loved that they didn't have to sell out via the blitz in order to be effective.
Eric  
SLIM_ : 9/7/2017 1:59 pm : link
I wasn't trying to diminish the '86 team. That defense did have holes though.

Nobody is going to compare to LT and arguably Banks played at a higher level than LT late in the year and in the playoffs. The team wasn't a roster full of All Pros though.

Collins never really got his due. I'd put him a head of jack rabbit for now as JR's only done it for a year.
RE: That s a great article  
x meadowlander : 9/7/2017 2:32 pm : link
In comment 13586880 joeinpa said:
Quote:
I will always have a difficult time believing any defense is equal to that 86 team. Where s the L. T. ?

Maybe Collins? But in any event it s great to see these guys still care about the Giants.
86 Defense was great - but that front 7 covered for a multitude of DB sins. Particularly after Kinard was injured, they were THIN. Man, trading Mark Haynes HURT.
86 team had Elvis "toast" patterson  
32_Razor : 9/7/2017 2:45 pm : link
Enough said
Collins and Snacks are Pro Bowl quality at their positions...  
Milton : 9/7/2017 2:48 pm : link
And Vernon and Jenkins are every bit as valuable (and more!), but JPP is the one who can elevate this defense to that of the '85 Bears. He will be the league's Defensive MVP this year if he stays healthy.
The thing that sets the 1990 defense apart  
Mark C : 9/7/2017 3:00 pm : link
from the '86 team, IMO, is their competition, and specifically who they beat in the biggest games. The 1990 Buffalo Bills remain in the conversation even today as the greatest offense in NFL history. They were the first great team to feature a no-huddle offense, which they ran to perfection, and no defense in the league to that point had shown any real possibility of stopping them. Thurman Thomas was an otherworldly weapon in that scheme. It was common knowledge that the only way to beat them was to outscore them, and that the only NFC team with a hope to do that was the 49ers, with Montana/Rice/Taylor, who the Giants had dispatched the week before by limiting them to one TD.

For those who weren't around then, but who lived through the '07 championship: Remember when Tom Brady busted out laughing during the week before that game when being told of Plaxico's prediction that they'd only score 17 points? Well, the notion that the 1990 Giants defense could stop the Bills offense was considered more than a bit loonier than that.

I'd argue that the 1986 defense was perhaps a more dominant one, but they were never tested to the extreme that the 1990 one was.
no love for late 50's giants  
hankb1126 : 9/7/2017 3:32 pm : link
de robustelli and katcavage
dt mo and and rosey grier
lb svare, livingston and huff
dn lynch patton tunnel and some guy whose name i cannot spell like koslovski i think

i think this defense was the best of all time for the gients
I think it can be special if we master the turnover situation  
mdc1 : 9/7/2017 7:59 pm : link
on defense and specials. Watch that Saban team, the minute you think you can do something, somebody turns the momentum around by demoralizing you on a field goal, a punt, a kick return, an interception, a destructive sack.

LT 86  
Rolyrock : 9/7/2017 10:26 pm : link
Was MVP of the league that year, unstoppable!!
RE: LT 86  
Milton : 9/7/2017 10:39 pm : link
In comment 13587882 Rolyrock said:
Quote:
Was MVP of the league that year, unstoppable!!
That could be JPP this year. But in fairness it will be the combination of Vernon on the other side and Snacks in the middle that allows him to shine so brightly. I just don't see how an offense can account for all three of them when they are healthy. And then you have Collins flying around on top of that. If Apple shakes off his injuries and plays up to his talent level, you have two shutdown corners as part of the mix. The only thing missing from this defense is a Jesse Armstead on the weakside and/or a Seth Joyner on the strong side. I'd love to see them add that final piece in next year's draft.
RE: Parcells is right.  
fredgbrown : 9/7/2017 11:47 pm : link
In comment 13587179 Klaatu said:
Quote:
And it brings to mind the old adage, "The best defense is a good offense." Look no further than Super Bowl 25 for proof of that. Hopefully, this year the upgrades at the skill positions will make up for any deficiencies in the offensive line, at least in part. We may not be able to "pound the rock" like those 1990 Giants did (or today's Cowboys, for that matter), but that doesn't necessarily mean that our offense can't be more efficient than it was last year. We'll see.

As for our defense, the onus is on the front four to produce. Stopping the run, certainly, but they must also get more pressure on opposing QBs. JPP and OV in particular are getting paid to be game-changing difference-makers. Let's see it happen.


Both JPP and OV were top 5 in pressures before JPP got hurt. Pressures can be almost as good as sacks as it forces bad throws and ints.
RE: RE: Parcells is right.  
Klaatu : 9/8/2017 12:32 am : link
In comment 13587978 fredgbrown said:
Quote:
In comment 13587179 Klaatu said:


Quote:


And it brings to mind the old adage, "The best defense is a good offense." Look no further than Super Bowl 25 for proof of that. Hopefully, this year the upgrades at the skill positions will make up for any deficiencies in the offensive line, at least in part. We may not be able to "pound the rock" like those 1990 Giants did (or today's Cowboys, for that matter), but that doesn't necessarily mean that our offense can't be more efficient than it was last year. We'll see.

As for our defense, the onus is on the front four to produce. Stopping the run, certainly, but they must also get more pressure on opposing QBs. JPP and OV in particular are getting paid to be game-changing difference-makers. Let's see it happen.



Both JPP and OV were top 5 in pressures before JPP got hurt. Pressures can be almost as good as sacks as it forces bad throws and ints.


"Almost as good" means that there's room for improvement.
And sacks can cause fumbles.
1986 Defense was very intense. They obviously got after the QB  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2017 7:38 am : link
but also had a great run defense. The secondary was a kind of a weakspot as they gave up some plays. But sooner or later LT and Co rushing the passer was going to get you if you chose to go to that "well" too often. Fun to watch.

1990 Defense was more even keeled and structured. They simply played great together and didn't give up much anywhere, especially on the scoreboard. Belichick/Parcells could basically set up a gameplan against any club and make it work.

2017....we'll see??

different eras and all, but c'mon now.  
Rick5 : 9/8/2017 8:17 am : link
I expect a good defense this year, but I had full confidence that the '86 D could shut down any offense on the planet (after they worked the bugs out after the first game). Banks, Reasons, Carson, Taylor, Marshall, Burt, et al. There's no chance this year's D is going to be a historically great D. It's not going to happen. I am expecting a top 6 or 7 D in the league though.
We don't get enough sacks to compare to that '86 defense.  
yatqb : 9/8/2017 10:05 am : link
Pressures don't change drives like sacks do. We're a VERY good defense, but not a generational defense.
Loved the article ... but to suggest this year's defense can compare  
baadbill : 9/9/2017 11:49 am : link
is to deny the legitimacy of the greatness of LT. I literally watched every single snap of professional football LT played and there simply is no describing the qualitative difference in the level of his play versus any other defensive player in history. He didn't just change the Giants. He changed football itself.

I can't wait for Sun night. I am as excited about this season as any since the 1986 season. But there is a difference. Back then I got to watch the greatest athlete in the history of sports. Alas, that is something I will never get to do again.
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