Sorry but I couldn't think of a better title for this thread.
First let me say, I'm 31 years old and only started following football in 2001. So I unfortunately missed all of the years LT played. So I don't challenge his greatness even a little bit. I just always wondered if using the argument that he's the GOAT because he changed the way defenses played him was a little bit unfair. I think that biases players that are from an earlier era. Hypothetically speaking if another LT came or, an even better LT came this year, it's possible that since schemes are more sophisticated in 2017 there won't be a change in defense or the change in defense would be relatively insignificant when compared to the change in defense that happened when LT played. My analogy would be a young company and a mature company, as a company matures the market gets saturated and there's less room for market share and sales growth. Same with NFL defenses, I think defenses are more mature, so I don't think we'll see any player come in and change the way defenses play like LT did. So using that argument will no one be able to unseat LT because no one came in and revolutionized the way defenses played him like LT did? Isn't it unfairly biasing towards LT that just so happened to be born a few decades earlier than players playing today?
When someone comes along and changes the game the way LT did, then that person maybe GOAT. Until then, LT is.
Period
Amen.
I get so frustrated with the media who is very built o this.
Ex. Bill Russell who led his Celtics to 11 championships in 13 years becaus he did what it took to win, made those around him better and was all about team. Does not get the same respect as Jorda who won 6 titles.
I was definitely not making that argument either. My point was though that it's possible no one will ever be as good, but it's possible someone WILL be as good but it won't be noticed because he won't have the same opportunity to change the game.
The point is that NFL defenses are more sophisticated now and there won't be as much opportunity for a guy to come in and have new formations created for him because there are already so many of them. That could be because the NFL was relatively unsophisticated and the double TE formation was a revolutionary change at the time. But I hate to make that argument because it then takes away from LT's greatness. But it could also be because the NFL is so sophisticated now that there just aren't that many scheme changes left to be made.
Be a long time before a player like that comes along.
When I was young and would watch him play I was always amazed how much better he was than everyone. I also couldn't believe how luck the giants were to have the best player in the league.
LT is the GOAT
I was going to ask if you typed that on your phone, haha.
At his peak, teams would put a tackle, TE, and RB assigned to block him.
also, LT could drop into coverage and cover an RB at 6'4" 245 pounds.
Von Miller, Justin Houston, and Vic Beasley don't command that presents on the field.
There is a reason he is in the top 5 of greatest players to play the game on everyone's list.
Nowadays, there are so many players of elite physical skills coming out of college every year, it's amazing.
The superstars of football now, are only marginally better than most of the athletes they are being compared to.
That's why it is so difficult to determine who is hands down the best at any one position, any particular year. It seems to be someone different every year, no one player is as dominant in comparison to others that play the position as when LT was playing.
LT was just an unbelievable athlete on a level all by himself, at the time.
You can watch highlights, and they're incredible, but you can put together a great highlight reel for almost any good NFL player. So that doesn't really get it across.
You can listen to us old-timers on BBI, but we start to sound like the guy saying "I had to walk 5 miles each way to and from school, in a blizzard, up-hill both ways." Hearing our awe at the guy doesn't get it across, either.
And, it's not like no one could score on the Giants while LT was on the field. He was the best player on a great defense, but it was still football. It's a team game. There's a limit to what one guy can do. So you look at JPP and LC and talk about them wanting to be the next LT as if that makes sense. It doesn't.
What is hard to grasp is that LT was so disruptive, play in and play out, that he, a single player, changed the way offense was played in the NFL, more or less permanently
You can say, well, he was first, so it's not fair to deprecate the guys that came after. (And yes, LT showed everyone what could be done, and they copied him.) But it's not like he was the first great defender in the history of the league. Sam Huff to Ray Nitschke to Dick Butkus, Deacon Jones's Fearsome Foursome to Alan Page's Purple Gang to the Steel Curtain to the Flex to the No-name Defense, to anyone and anything you want to name -- Formations and positions and plays that had been adequate for all of them just weren't enough. LT would blow them up. Coaches had to create new schemes just to contain him. Not just better game plans, but essentially a new position (H-back) and new formations.
LT was that much better than all those Hall of Famers.
Off the field, he was a piece of crap, but on the field, he was historic.
LT- Defense
End of story.
Nowadays, there are so many players of elite physical skills coming out of college every year, it's amazing.
The superstars of football now, are only marginally better than most of the athletes they are being compared to.
That's why it is so difficult to determine who is hands down the best at any one position, any particular year. It seems to be someone different every year, no one player is as dominant in comparison to others that play the position as when LT was playing.
LT was just an unbelievable athlete on a level all by himself, at the time.
I agree completely but what made LT the superstar he was is his all out effort.
He was relentless and played at a different level. No one is playing the game today with a separated shoulder and also have 3 sacks.
The game Von Miller had in the Super Bowl was LT 5 or 6 times a year in his prime.
Think JPP against Dallas a couple of years ago(when he blocked the kick) but 5 or 6 times a year.
He had a way of just taking over the game.
Period
I tend to agree except for the guy named Jim Brown.
Opposing teams were terrified of him and had to account for him on every play. One of my favorite quotes from a player came from JAWS. He came to the line of scrimmage and looked for LT. He looked left. He looked right. No LT? Where is LT?!? He panicked and called timeout. LT was on the sideline getting an equipment adjustment.
His overall makeup was off-the-charts, and that is why Offenses changed what they did to react to him.
Once in a lifetime player...
Period
This!!!!
t was really just an unbelievable thing to witness...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IME24FDeTeQ - ( New Window )
Beginning tomorrow, I think this year and maybe a few more will also be a great time to be a Giants fan. Really psyched about this season.
This 100%.
10 straight pro bowls, defensive rookie of the year, league MVP, defensive player of the year, 2 Super Bowls, lead the league in sacks, and played the game with an insane amount of intensity.
The number 56 is legendary because of LT.
There were complaints at the time that LT "wasn't a real linebacker," because the "real" linebackers like Ham and Lambert on the Steelers dropped back into coverage a lot. Taylor could do that, and did it very well.
But more to the point, somebody wrote, if you thought Taylor wasn't a "linebacker" then you might as well rename the position Taylor played "wide defender," just as the "end" position had been renamed the "wide receiver." There was no point judging him by an outdated definition of his position. He was remaking the game.
Jerry Rice or LT? Rice had a longer career and played at a superb level almost until the end. But you still go with LT. LT could do more to help your team win.
Jim Brown or LT? Well, you'd have to think about it, but if you're playing 21st century pass-oriented football, LT. Same with, Walter Payton or any other great RB.
Montana, Unitas, Elway, Marino, Brady, Peyton Manning or LT? All great, franchise-changing players. Still, LT.
Isn't it interesting that no QB made the top 3.
1) LT
2) Jim Brown
3) ???
That's a missing part of the LT legend. He played special teams too.
He's the only defensive player I know of (except maybe Troy Polamalu a couple of times) where offenses literally said "how do we stop this guy." Usually it's defenses saying that about an offensive player.
Isn't it interesting that no QB made the top 3.
Jerry Rice's stats are his biggest argument for being #1, but I'd argue the distance between Jerry Rice and legends like Don Hutson (who for his time was just as dominant statistically), Steve Largent, Randy Moss, T.O. and others isn't as great as the distance between Brown and LT and others at their position. Rice didn't transform the game like they did.
To be fair, the West Coast offense was invented in Cincinnati by Paul Brown - football's greatest innovator of all time. Bill Walsh took it with him to SF.
He presented a new problem with his size, speed, and the position that he played. Jim Brown was a superior athlete to most in his day. Now the athleticism, strength, and all other attributes of NFL players is more equal, and if one is the greatest, it's not by as much as Jim Brown was in his day. He was like a man among boys. Cant penalize a great player for the time he played in. Because NFL athletes are closer in skills and ability than they seemed to be int he 60s and 70s, that means for one to be considered great or the greatest, they really have to stand out among a more competitive group. Tougher for today's player to stand out, but that doesnt take away from what LT, or Jim Brown, or Joe Monana did.
The Giants and other teams had done some experimentation with Moving players around and exploiting/confusing offenses---- The approach that Parcells and Bellicheck captured recognized that an unmatchable player could use his own instincts and analysis to FIND unplanned (and planned) opportunities within the fold of a defensive scheme.
It was an extraordinary leap to turn the game over to a player---to Free Him to utilize his talent. They built a defensive framework....and they allowed him to provide his own Harmony to whatever they were doing.