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Could the problem be coaching?

trueblueinpw : 9/10/2017 11:20 pm
I know the offensive line is as bad as we all feared. But, could part of the problem be that the head coach and his offensive coordinators don't know how to coach and game plan?

As an example, you have a terrific wide receiver like Brandon Marshall and your number one wide receiver is injured and not playing. Wouldn't you think you'd try to feature Brandon Marshall in the game?
Yes  
big_blue : 9/10/2017 11:21 pm : link
100%
It's not that - there's some small chance that this Dallas D  
jcn56 : 9/10/2017 11:21 pm : link
reconstituted is better than everyone thinks.

It's a lot more likely that they're garbage - and we didn't attack their weaknesses at all, and when we did poor execution led to incompletions and turnovers.
.  
Danny Kanell : 9/10/2017 11:21 pm : link
It's all of the above.

Eli, coaching, OL, lack of RB talent, etc.
too early on say oc, hc  
micky : 9/10/2017 11:22 pm : link
but ol coach is definitely in the bulls eye
It's definitely part of the discussion  
SHO'NUFF : 9/10/2017 11:22 pm : link
Solari didn't exactly come in with glowing reviews, and it shows. McAdoo Riley Gecko hasn't changed a thing.
McAdoo  
Mr. Nickels : 9/10/2017 11:23 pm : link
as Head coach can certainly bench Jerry and Hart..
there needs to be serious soul searching  
LG in NYC : 9/10/2017 11:24 pm : link
by McAdoo and staff... they cannot simply keep doing the same thing and think the result is going to magically change.
Good coaches make players play better as a unit  
SHO'NUFF : 9/10/2017 11:24 pm : link
Case in point, Rod Marinelli. He puts in half decent defenses with shit players. Can't say the same about Spags, and definitely not the same with Sullivan.
RE: It's not that - there's some small chance that this Dallas D  
Reb8thVA : 9/10/2017 11:24 pm : link
In comment 13592794 jcn56 said:
Quote:
reconstituted is better than everyone thinks.

It's a lot more likely that they're garbage - and we didn't attack their weaknesses at all, and when we did poor execution led to incompletions and turnovers.


Maybe but it's not like we haven't seen this ineptitude before. Three years now and the same results
They're on the second OL coach already with these guys.  
Devon : 9/10/2017 11:25 pm : link
At some point, at least in that regard, it becomes clear it's not about the coaching and just about shitty players.

McAdoo does clearly need a real OC to lean on too (which isn't a hate -- most HCs do, especially young ones), but it's too late again for that.
Ben should let someone else do the playcalling.  
CT Charlie : 9/10/2017 11:25 pm : link
He won't, but now he knows he needs to be creative in order to to squeeze more out of the O.
RE: RE: It's not that - there's some small chance that this Dallas D  
jcn56 : 9/10/2017 11:27 pm : link
In comment 13592823 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
In comment 13592794 jcn56 said:


Quote:


reconstituted is better than everyone thinks.

It's a lot more likely that they're garbage - and we didn't attack their weaknesses at all, and when we did poor execution led to incompletions and turnovers.



Maybe but it's not like we haven't seen this ineptitude before. Three years now and the same results


Wait - three years of what? Which are you referring to? The offense in general?
It definitely seems to be part of the problem  
Vanzetti : 9/10/2017 11:28 pm : link
OL was starting to come together at the end of 2015 under Flaherty. It has been a steady regression since Solari took over. Not saying it is all his fault but what exactly has he done? Who has gotten better under him? Richburg took a huge step back when Solari took over and Flowers has not gotten any better.

Sullivan's offense his second year in TB was the worst in the league. Giants offense has sucked under him. What have you seen to suggest that this guy brings anything to the table other than a Giants pedigree?


And McAdoo's scheme just does not fool anyone. Dallas looked like they had the playcalls.

RE: Good coaches make players play better as a unit  
LauderdaleMatty : 9/10/2017 11:40 pm : link
In comment 13592819 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
Case in point, Rod Marinelli. He puts in half decent defenses with shit players. Can't say the same about Spags, and definitely not the same with Sullivan.


Slags isn't the issue. And if the offense could have mustered more than the massive 50 or so yards in the first half maybe the D would have held up better. Dallas has a great OL and some great players. 19 points wasn't the problem

McAdoo is a huge part of the problem. Sure missing OBJ hurts. But this guy is a shifty OC. He came in and installed a WCO offense. The next innovative thing he does will be his fist. slags and the D got the team 11-5 last year. And this year if they do well it will be the D.
We were outcoached....  
DonQuixote : 9/10/2017 11:41 pm : link
Preseason games - basic stunts fool our OL, opposing coaches see it during the preseason, but were our players prepared in game 1?

Someone has to explain the decision making on the right side of the OL. Fluker is by no means a savior, but we had two first downs in the first half...not sure what the downside is to a personnel change.

No huddle offense confuses the defense...adjustments were made but the D was gassed at that point.

The TE routes on this team are just bad. Why is EE running horizontally three yards deep?

I
RE: It definitely seems to be part of the problem  
LauderdaleMatty : 9/10/2017 11:44 pm : link
In comment 13592864 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
OL was starting to come together at the end of 2015 under Flaherty. It has been a steady regression since Solari took over. Not saying it is all his fault but what exactly has he done? Who has gotten better under him? Richburg took a huge step back when Solari took over and Flowers has not gotten any better.

Sullivan's offense his second year in TB was the worst in the league. Giants offense has sucked under him. What have you seen to suggest that this guy brings anything to the table other than a Giants pedigree?


And McAdoo's scheme just does not fool anyone. Dallas looked like they had the playcalls.


Just want to be clear. It's McAdoo's offense and system. It's also McAdoo who calls the plays. McAdoo does nothing w the D and he helps devise the game plan. So it's Sullivan? Yeah he should be fired but not the guy who devised the system and calls the plays. Makes perfect sense
I like McAdoo but it  
bluepepper : 9/10/2017 11:50 pm : link
does give me pause when you look at the 2015 team. The OL was Flowers-Pugh-Richburg-Scwhartz/Jerry-Newhouse. And the offense put up some nice numbers. Now it wasn't great because it couldn't put games away but they moved the ball and gave us a chance to win. McAdoo was the OC but Tom's hand was there and maybe with Tom's touch gone, Ben is being exposed. I hope not but can's discount the possibility.
No, it wasn't  
George : 9/10/2017 11:51 pm : link
The real problem is that the one legitimate superstar this team has was inactive and standing on the sidelines. That would've made Vince Lombardi look like Barry Switzer, too.

A lot of problems get fixed when your Pro Bowler returns to the lineup.
We were outcoached....  
DonQuixote : 9/10/2017 11:53 pm : link
Preseason games - basic stunts fool our OL, opposing coaches see it during the preseason, but were our players prepared in game 1?

Someone has to explain the decision making on the right side of the OL. Fluker is by no means a savior, but we had two first downs in the first half...not sure what the downside is to a personnel change.

No huddle offense confuses the defense...adjustments were made but the D was gassed at that point.

The TE routes on this team are just bad. Why is EE running horizontally three yards deep?

I
RE: RE: It definitely seems to be part of the problem  
Devon : 9/10/2017 11:53 pm : link
In comment 13592987 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 13592864 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


OL was starting to come together at the end of 2015 under Flaherty. It has been a steady regression since Solari took over. Not saying it is all his fault but what exactly has he done? Who has gotten better under him? Richburg took a huge step back when Solari took over and Flowers has not gotten any better.

Sullivan's offense his second year in TB was the worst in the league. Giants offense has sucked under him. What have you seen to suggest that this guy brings anything to the table other than a Giants pedigree?


And McAdoo's scheme just does not fool anyone. Dallas looked like they had the playcalls.




Just want to be clear. It's McAdoo's offense and system. It's also McAdoo who calls the plays. McAdoo does nothing w the D and he helps devise the game plan. So it's Sullivan? Yeah he should be fired but not the guy who devised the system and calls the plays. Makes perfect sense


In this scenario, you'd fire him because the HC needs someone he can actually lean on, that runs this type of offense, to help ease his burden that seems to increasingly be too much for him (it's too much for most HCs, there's no shame in it) and Sullivan seems to basically not be more than an elevated gopher.

It's not really a hard concept.
I think you may be right about Sullivan - but what are you doing  
jcn56 : 9/10/2017 11:56 pm : link
if you don't give him the opportunity to sink or swim? By retaining playcalling duties, you're essentially shielding Sullivan.

If, in fact Sullivan is just the guy the Giants hoisted on BM (which is possible but I'm not sure how much I believe it), then put him front and center, hand him the headset, and let him do his best. If he fails, then you replace him with a more viable option.
Could?  
BigBlueWhale : 9/10/2017 11:59 pm : link
I admit, I never wanted McAdoo here so maybe I'm biased. Don't like the scheme. Think the WCO is a dreadful fit for Eli in particular. Have no effing clue what Sullivan's purpose is.

And if you've ever been to a McAdoo practice - Holy shit. Looks like badminton mixed with a dance party. I have no doubt Eli looks great in this country club atmosphere, nor do I attend other team's practices, but we get steamrolled when actual football is being played. And we simply don't execute our plays. I can't take another season of this.
Should of cleaned  
Mike Graves : 9/11/2017 12:10 am : link
House after 2015 and hired Doug Marrone!!!!!
Then what is Sullivan's purpose?  
SHO'NUFF : 9/11/2017 12:18 am : link
Maybe we're using the wrong type of blocking scheme for the personnel we have. Just like we had a soft zone defense with press-man corners in the early TC years.
RE: RE: RE: It definitely seems to be part of the problem  
LauderdaleMatty : 9/11/2017 12:22 am : link
In comment 13593026 Devon said:
Quote:
In comment 13592987 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


In comment 13592864 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


OL was starting to come together at the end of 2015 under Flaherty. It has been a steady regression since Solari took over. Not saying it is all his fault but what exactly has he done? Who has gotten better under him? Richburg took a huge step back when Solari took over and Flowers has not gotten any better.

Sullivan's offense his second year in TB was the worst in the league. Giants offense has sucked under him. What have you seen to suggest that this guy brings anything to the table other than a Giants pedigree?


And McAdoo's scheme just does not fool anyone. Dallas looked like they had the playcalls.




Just want to be clear. It's McAdoo's offense and system. It's also McAdoo who calls the plays. McAdoo does nothing w the D and he helps devise the game plan. So it's Sullivan? Yeah he should be fired but not the guy who devised the system and calls the plays. Makes perfect sense



In this scenario, you'd fire him because the HC needs someone he can actually lean on, that runs this type of offense, to help ease his burden that seems to increasingly be too much for him (it's too much for most HCs, there's no shame in it) and Sullivan seems to basically not be more than an elevated gopher.

It's not really a hard concept.



Got it. It's all Sullivan's fault. Not the guy who can't call plays and whose scheme fools no one. Funny how when Mata foisted this dope on TC it was a great move. I guess we are lucky he was also forced to hire Spags Since we are lucky he stays away from the defense unless it's to show them videos from GOT.

Please. Tell me what top level OC wants to work under Mr Sandwich boeard and mentor him since he doesn't he know how to game plan the offense he installed. Who should have the Giants let him hire?
There was nothing exciting about this O last year  
montanagiant : 9/11/2017 12:25 am : link
They played it close to the vest and pulled some wins out doing so. It's not going to work this year. The game planning was abysmal tonight and it appeared we had nothing set for the possibility that OBJ would not play.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It definitely seems to be part of the problem  
Devon : 9/11/2017 12:28 am : link
In comment 13593143 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 13593026 Devon said:


Quote:


In comment 13592987 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


In comment 13592864 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


OL was starting to come together at the end of 2015 under Flaherty. It has been a steady regression since Solari took over. Not saying it is all his fault but what exactly has he done? Who has gotten better under him? Richburg took a huge step back when Solari took over and Flowers has not gotten any better.

Sullivan's offense his second year in TB was the worst in the league. Giants offense has sucked under him. What have you seen to suggest that this guy brings anything to the table other than a Giants pedigree?


And McAdoo's scheme just does not fool anyone. Dallas looked like they had the playcalls.




Just want to be clear. It's McAdoo's offense and system. It's also McAdoo who calls the plays. McAdoo does nothing w the D and he helps devise the game plan. So it's Sullivan? Yeah he should be fired but not the guy who devised the system and calls the plays. Makes perfect sense



In this scenario, you'd fire him because the HC needs someone he can actually lean on, that runs this type of offense, to help ease his burden that seems to increasingly be too much for him (it's too much for most HCs, there's no shame in it) and Sullivan seems to basically not be more than an elevated gopher.

It's not really a hard concept.




Got it. It's all Sullivan's fault. Not the guy who can't call plays and whose scheme fools no one. Funny how when Mata foisted this dope on TC it was a great move. I guess we are lucky he was also forced to hire Spags Since we are lucky he stays away from the defense unless it's to show them videos from GOT.

Please. Tell me what top level OC wants to work under Mr Sandwich boeard and mentor him since he doesn't he know how to game plan the offense he installed. Who should have the Giants let him hire?


I don't think you read what I wrote. I said the burden of it all being on McAdoo is seemingly too much for him and you reply with... I'm not really sure.

As far as who would work under him, there are lot of guys with WCO backgrounds that would. Don't kid yourself. Joe Philbin probably would have taken the job here if he was to be OC spot (like he had in GB) instead of them offering him the OL gig and even he would have been a better shoulder for McAdoo to lean on than Sully, given this offense.
Mac I am sure he is a great guy  
Bluesbreaker : 9/11/2017 1:18 am : link
But it;s his offense and game plan I said it last year we spent a Gazzilion on fixing the defense and that we didn't have a gazzilion to fix the offense it's on Mac and Jerry to make the moves . I honestly hated the draft outside of Engram . I never liked the offense it's not suited for Eli
it would be a bit different if Eli had Rodgers mobility but I still feel he thrives with a serious run game and pass protection he can throw down feild with the best of them
he has never been a touch passer .
There was plenty of talent out there tonight  
trueblueinpw : 9/11/2017 1:30 am : link
The offense scored 3 points. Yes, the line isn't good. Yes, OBJ wasn't playing. But Dallas doesn't have a very good defense. The offense scored 3 points. What in the world was the game plan on Sunday? This coaching staff can't scheme or game plan. I think other coaching staffs in the NFL must laugh at McAdoo and his "heavy handed" offense.
Here we go  
blueblood'11 : 9/11/2017 7:35 am : link
This team is only going to go as far as the defense will take us. And that won't be enough because unfortunately this offense is as bad as the defense is good. That's a disparity that's spells certain failure. It's like being on a seesaw with no one on the other end to push.

And the head coach is to blame. He tries to fit a square peg into a round hole and it ain't working. When the season is over and they fail to,make the playoffs I hope they fire him. This offense has gone down hill ever since he's been here.

Where have you gone Kevin Gilbride.
Eli 29/38 76%  
WideRight : 9/11/2017 7:46 am : link
but 220 yds, 5.8 YPA.

Eli is obviously not a 20M man, but these numbers do implicate coaching as a prob. Eli is executing to the level that the plays permit. Taking the shorter quicker options, but the overall result is a fail.

McAdoo should realize that success with this scheme would probably require a 90% completion rate, and he's more likely to have success with a different plan than get that.
Two first downs in the first half  
Jimmy Googs : 9/11/2017 7:52 am : link
Everybody should be running laps this morning including the coaches...
Dink and dunk  
blueblood'11 : 9/11/2017 8:33 am : link
In this offense it takes a fucking multiple of plays to move it down the field which leaves the opportunity for disaster to happen at a very high rate. And in this offense it almost always plays out that way.
...  
annexOPR : 9/11/2017 8:37 am : link
It's the OL.

They are a train wreck - especially the right side. This team is going nowhere with Jerry - Hart protecting Eli.

I lost count of how many times Jerry got beat / blew an assignment in the first half.
in addition  
idiotsavant : 9/11/2017 8:47 am : link
the same weird disconnect appears to exist (such as that we saw last year), in play design and calling, in that they don't seem to be taking into account what they have on the line nor trends in the league with regards to line play.

so, many asked for major line investments, didn't get that;

then, I for one, expected a major change in offense style or emphasis: quicker to develop plays, taking it to them more often with instant to go type zone runs (leaving a D no time for stunts for example) and taking more advantage of the blocking TEs.

It seems that they do have a panopoly of plays that they can execute, and can call almost anything, but still revert to a list of plays that completely ignore the particular personel limitations.
in addition, the particulars of failing to pick up stunts  
idiotsavant : 9/11/2017 8:54 am : link
seem to be repeating. an OL who finds himself without someone to block seems to have been instructed to double team / follow the next players d-man.

leaving a gaping hole for stunter or blitzer

or, a RB runs free through the gap without the ball, to run a route, and the D just ignores him, knowing that they can just get through that same gap to Eli before the RB comes clear.

that's just poor design and execution, random teams easily have our number with regards to this part of the game.

in other words  
idiotsavant : 9/11/2017 9:04 am : link
there is a big difference between 'get the pass out quickly' (with a passive or reactive OL, which I associate with mac/sully) and 'get the O linesmen out, moving forward or sideways, and hitting people instantly' (moving QB which I associate with falcons/Denver of old)

and, whereas some might think that style B is harder I beg to differ, it may be easier for OLs to grasp as opposed to asking the OL to read and react.
The formation that was successful  
WideRight : 9/11/2017 9:32 am : link
Was the jet action, or what ever you want to call it.

Bringing a receiving around for a sweep or fake. That created enough hesitation in the DL to get a play off. But then Eli would just dunk it to a short guy. Never tried to get more.
using trickery to create hesitation is not going  
idiotsavant : 9/11/2017 9:43 am : link
give one enough variations, or enough sustainability for a season.

one needs to practice and practice again, types of run blockings that require our OL to fire out quickly and cohesively and effectively and RBs to hit it hard, and after that is achieved, and only after, establish play action off those.

todays game is predicated on quickness and aggressiveness in this regard, just saying 'throw it sooner' does not get to the heart of the matter.

I'm getting that sinking feeling about McAdoo  
PatersonPlank : 9/11/2017 9:45 am : link
He's starting to look and sound like H****ey more and more.
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