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This Play.....I don't even know what to say

Giantfan in skinland : 9/11/2017 10:43 am
I'm rewatching the game, deleted a thread I began to start...  
mattlawson : 9/11/2017 10:45 am : link
this OL gave up the worst possible plays at the worst possible times. Unbelievable. Sick all over again
This one isn't about the OL  
Giantfan in skinland : 9/11/2017 10:48 am : link
Eli is in a relatively clean spot there after evading the pressure. Two uncovered receivers to chose from. I don't know if it's on Marshall or Eli, but to get that half assed incomplete on THIS was unforgivable.
RE: This one isn't about the OL  
Go Terps : 9/11/2017 10:49 am : link
In comment 13593821 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
Eli is in a relatively clean spot there after evading the pressure. Two uncovered receivers to chose from. I don't know if it's on Marshall or Eli, but to get that half assed incomplete on THIS was unforgivable.


It's 3rd and 12...why would he want to throw the ball 3 yards beyond the line of scrimmage?
I wish the TV shot was wider  
Giantfan in skinland : 9/11/2017 10:52 am : link
There isn't a defender within 10 yards of Brandon Marshall. Collins noted it on the broadcast. That was a huge play that they just flat out missed with an unforced error on a 5 yard pitch and catch.
RE: I wish the TV shot was wider  
jcn56 : 9/11/2017 10:55 am : link
In comment 13593838 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
There isn't a defender within 10 yards of Brandon Marshall. Collins noted it on the broadcast. That was a huge play that they just flat out missed with an unforced error on a 5 yard pitch and catch.


This play is the one I keep referring to - and while it's impossible for us to know who it was on, the look on Eli's face sure didn't make it seem like Marshall was in the wrong spot.
A pitucre is  
bluesince56 : 9/11/2017 10:57 am : link
worth a thousand words. Thanks Jerry! Let's get receivers. Of course Eli has no time to throw.
RE: A pitucre is  
jcn56 : 9/11/2017 10:58 am : link
In comment 13593860 bluesince56 said:
Quote:
worth a thousand words. Thanks Jerry! Let's get receivers. Of course Eli has no time to throw.


He had more than enough time to throw.
Eli....  
clydeman1 : 9/11/2017 11:01 am : link
I really wonder how well Eli is seeing the field....
Eli is expecting him to stop, Marshall is expecting to be led  
PetesHereNow : 9/11/2017 11:04 am : link
First live game together. It happens.
I'm not absolving Eli  
Go Terps : 9/11/2017 11:04 am : link
I thought he was brutal last night. One of the worst games I can remember him playing in a while.

I think this franchise has picked a bad time (36 year old QB) to take chances on the offensive line.
RE: RE: This one isn't about the OL  
Bernie : 9/11/2017 11:06 am : link
In comment 13593824 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13593821 Giantfan in skinland said:


Quote:


Eli is in a relatively clean spot there after evading the pressure. Two uncovered receivers to chose from. I don't know if it's on Marshall or Eli, but to get that half assed incomplete on THIS was unforgivable.



It's 3rd and 12...why would he want to throw the ball 3 yards beyond the line of scrimmage?


This. By my count, there are 3 cowboys in the picture. Simple math says 8 were defending the first down marker. No way was a first down being made.

Furthermore, it's comical that 2 first round picks and a 2nd round pick can't block 3 rushing lineman.
RE: Eli is expecting him to stop, Marshall is expecting to be led  
Rjanyg : 9/11/2017 11:13 am : link
In comment 13593881 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
First live game together. It happens.


If it is zone, the receiver stops, Man coverage he keeps running. Not rocket science. Ironically it seems to be at least 5 defenders rushing so it might have been cover 1 man under. Either way, they need to complete that pass.
I think Marshall read man, and Eli read zone.  
PetesHereNow : 9/11/2017 11:20 am : link
I think it's zone because if it's man, there's not a Dallas defender in 10 yards and that doesn't happen in man in the NFL unless someone falls down or got injured.
I'm not sure I get all the hate  
lugnut : 9/11/2017 11:25 am : link
for Eli. He was 29 of 38 last night. Behind a crap OL and no run game.
RE: RE: This one isn't about the OL  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/11/2017 11:34 am : link
In comment 13593824 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13593821 Giantfan in skinland said:


Quote:


Eli is in a relatively clean spot there after evading the pressure. Two uncovered receivers to chose from. I don't know if it's on Marshall or Eli, but to get that half assed incomplete on THIS was unforgivable.



It's 3rd and 12...why would he want to throw the ball 3 yards beyond the line of scrimmage?

You say that like it was an isolated occurrence that they would throw short of the sticks on 3rd down.
RE: I'm not sure I get all the hate  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/11/2017 11:37 am : link
In comment 13593953 lugnut said:
Quote:
for Eli. He was 29 of 38 last night. Behind a crap OL and no run game.

8 of 9 on the final drive, down 2+ scores with two minutes to go. He then proceeded to pad his stats on what became a meaningless drive because he showed no urgency to score. 19 of his 29 completions went to Vereen, Shepard, Perkins or Darkwa for a combination yards per reception of 5.4.

Eli was not good last night.
RE: RE: This one isn't about the OL  
Sec 103 : 9/11/2017 11:54 am : link
In comment 13593824 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13593821 Giantfan in skinland said:


Quote:


Eli is in a relatively clean spot there after evading the pressure. Two uncovered receivers to chose from. I don't know if it's on Marshall or Eli, but to get that half assed incomplete on THIS was unforgivable.



It's 3rd and 12...why would he want to throw the ball 3 yards beyond the line of scrimmage?

WOW reason on this site? LOL
pretty sure it was zone  
GiantsLaw : 9/11/2017 11:59 am : link
and the defender for that area had slipped and fallen down IIRC
Jerry...  
JayinVT : 9/11/2017 12:07 pm : link
Hart wasn't great, by any stretch, but Jerry was abysmal.. there were a few plays where he failed to identify the stunt, which the cowboys run frequently so he should have been ready, and just kept going right and wiped hart out, becoming a psuedo pass russher and leaving a giant hole for the stunting DE to go right up the middle. Even on the plays with a 'clean' pocket, the midlle of the line was still getting pushed back, it's like we have a zone blocking OL trying to play a power game... I don't know if that's true, just what it looks like
RE: I'm not sure I get all the hate  
JayinVT : 9/11/2017 12:09 pm : link
In comment 13593953 lugnut said:
Quote:
for Eli. He was 29 of 38 last night. Behind a crap OL and no run game.


He was abysmal last night
I warned all of you about the offense  
djm : 9/11/2017 12:21 pm : link
and I also defend the OL. Way too much optimism heading into this season especially on O. And forget how overrated or underrated Dallas might be. This was a divisional road game against a hungry team that had lost 3 straight to the Giants. Giants started off sluggish and Dallas took advantage. Giants adjusted some at half time and seemed to at least resemble a pro offensive for stretches during the second half but they just had a bad night against a game opponent. Shit happens. Maybe they underachieve or suck this year but I still think this team has a lot of wins in them this season. One game? People do this shit every year. We all do it sometimes. Then shit starts to regulate and the season takes shape.

I guarantee you this season hasn't taken shape yet. That's just a fact. Whether or not the Giants are the goods remains to be seen, but last night likely won't go a very long in determining things, unless the NYG offense is truly terrible. I'm sorry but I don't think it is and one game won't change my mind. They've had terrible games before only to bounce back. Bad game...it happens. Get the fuck off the mat and play NFL football next Monday.
and when I say too much optimism  
djm : 9/11/2017 12:23 pm : link
I don't think it's crazy to expect good to great things offensively but you can't sit here and be SHOCKED or even terrified that the Giants laid an egg last night. They laid many eggs just last season and our best player was out.

Get off the mat. Simple as that.
this shit with Eli is just weird  
djm : 9/11/2017 12:27 pm : link
he clearly has games where he's not very good or sharp. Clearly. We've seen this guy play for over a decade now. He is what he is. He's capable of true greatness and at times he can struggle. He's also not very good when the play breaks down although he can still pull a rabbit out here and there and is as tough as any QB playing.

Eli and the OL played like shit for most of the night. Both things can happen at the same time. When both things occur the Giants can't afford to miss a few plays that open up like last night. A few times, Eli had a man and missed him. Maybe against a lesser team on a different night the Giants will have more margin for error but not last night.

Two things  
PetesHereNow : 9/11/2017 1:29 pm : link
Eli should have thrown it earlier. Absolutely. Like when BM crosses through the zone.

As Marshall is approaching the sidelines, stop, show Eli your numbers. Don't keep running to the sidelines in a wide open area.

It's not just one person at fault.
I'm not a knee-jerk  
lugnut : 9/11/2017 1:39 pm : link
Eli defender, but...

To say he was "abysmal"? Again, completed 75% of his passes.

And, yeah, in some sense completing so many for just a 5.4-yard avg sucks, but isn't the WCO all about the short passing game? Also, OBJ wasn't even on the field, and for all we know 33-y.o. BM was blanketed the whole time.



that makes it look worse  
Dankbeerman : 9/11/2017 1:44 pm : link
then it was, eli shuffeld in the pocket and was moving forward at the time.

I think he was going somewhere else with the ball and then saw marshal late and changed his target. Marahal needed to get about 10 yards after the catch so there is no shot that he was the desinged target.

Not a good play by Eli at all, but not as bad as it looks here
Alex Smith regularly completes...  
JayinVT : 9/11/2017 1:45 pm : link
a high percentage of passes, because he doesnt throw the ball downfield... Not comparing Eli and smith, but completion percentage aint everything... when he had opportuities to go downfield he was bailing out and missed
The worst play of the night?  
KWALL2 : 9/11/2017 1:48 pm : link
Above Matt said:

Quote:
OL gave up the worst possible plays at the worst possible times.


Here you go Matt. Worst play of the night was delivered by our top 10 draft pick now playing LT.

Flowers letting Tapper blow him up and sack Eli on the 2nd and goal play. It was a TD. Engram was open and Eli was going to him.

Tapper got to Eli before the 2nd foot hit the ground on his drop back from shotgun.

Could have been a one score game there.

You can see the play on this link below. Eli looks off the LB. Opens a huge space in middle of the field. He's going there. And Engram is going to be waiting for his first TD.

Terrible play by Howard. He didn't even slow him down. Another display on what Howard lacks with his lateral movement.

Tapper is an explosive guy but he never had a sack before. Howard made him look like LT.
Tapper blows up Flowers - ( New Window )
Another view of it  
Giantfan in skinland : 9/11/2017 2:00 pm : link
You can see the open field in front of Marshall. Closest Dallas defender tracked another WR and fell.

https://twitter.com/PFF_Smith/status/907297020003672064
Look at the clips posted by GFiS and KWALL  
Go Terps : 9/11/2017 2:08 pm : link
Each is an example of an offensive tackle beaten so badly that Eli doesn't even have time to set his feet.

Eli and McAdoo are running this offense with a hand tied behind their backs.
Marshall probably could've stopped earlier.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/11/2017 2:09 pm : link
Eli definitely had a fraction more of time to throw than he probably anticipated. It looked like Shep was open over the middle too. The o-line definitely could've done a better job, especially Bobby Hart (AKA the best right tackle in football).

The whole thing was a clusterfuck.
RE: Alex Smith regularly completes...  
Vanzetti : 9/11/2017 2:14 pm : link
In comment 13594335 JayinVT said:
Quote:
a high percentage of passes, because he doesnt throw the ball downfield... Not comparing Eli and smith, but completion percentage aint everything... when he had opportuities to go downfield he was bailing out and missed


Agreed. But a guy who completed 77% of his passes behind a swiss cheese line did not have an "awful" game, especially lacking a superstar receiver.

You can say he didn't come up big or whatever. But to say he "awful" isn't right. Mediocre, subpar. Fine with those. But awful is a stretch.

RE: Look at the clips posted by GFiS and KWALL  
Giantfan in skinland : 9/11/2017 2:21 pm : link
In comment 13594405 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Each is an example of an offensive tackle beaten so badly that Eli doesn't even have time to set his feet.

Eli and McAdoo are running this offense with a hand tied behind their backs.


Terps, I don't disagree. But I think you can find some examples of teams around the league who do a little better job manufacturing offense than the Giants do with comparable OL situations. Started another thread on this (Very interested to see Denver tonight). Denver's OL is no better than ours (at best, marginally so), and Simien is for even the staunchest Eli hater, I would think admittedly not the QB Eli is. And yest, I'd be willing to bet against a better San Diego defense, Denver manages to do more than we did vs. Dallas (and will do so throughout the year).

I expected a heavy dose of Evan Engram last night and a gameplan focused on coming up with some creative ways to get the ball into his hands. It never materialized and I'm not sure why.

I think we could do more designed stuff to Perkins in the passing game to try to substitute for the inability to do anything in the running game (as compared to Vereen who basically tips pass of when he's in the backfield). We also seem to make very sparing use of the WR screen.

This is to say nothing of the complete lack of a vertical element to this offense (which can be accomplished at least to some extent even if the OL is failing...by, for example, moving the pocket around). But I get it, that's by design. However, some of the above should be consistent with what Mac tries to do on offense, so I was surprised to see none of it vs. Dallas.
GFiS  
Go Terps : 9/11/2017 2:23 pm : link
Will Denver's defense allow San Diego's offense to march the length of the field for the entire first half? That was a big factor last night.

Tipped plays  
Go Terps : 9/11/2017 2:24 pm : link
I do wonder to what extent Ellison and Engram, and where/when they are aligned, will tip what we are doing.
RE: Tipped plays  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/11/2017 2:29 pm : link
In comment 13594448 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I do wonder to what extent Ellison and Engram, and where/when they are aligned, will tip what we are doing.


Sometimes you have to be able to run out of formations and personnel groupings that scream "RUN". However, even good teams like the Cowboys will use their head and manipulate fronts with their personnel grouping in order to open up running lanes. The Cowboys went to 11 personnel and ran the ball quite often on the Giants as a way to create some space.

We can't run the ball regardless of formation or personnel... that's really an o-line problem. We have guys in position to make blocks and they whiff (Ellison on 4th quarter run, Flowers on Shep reverse).
KWALL2  
Now Mike in MD : 9/11/2017 2:50 pm : link
Not for nothing if Flowers wasn't a turnstile the play is still dead because Hart also was doing his best impression of a very small speed bump. His guy was about a half step behind Tapper.

Absurd!
He only needed another half step  
KWALL2 : 9/11/2017 3:13 pm : link
And we had a TD. The middle is wide open and Engram turns to go there. Eli was going to throw it to him.
Hard to critique Manning without having the coaches film  
JOrthman : 9/11/2017 3:43 pm : link
He completed a high percentage of passes, but without film of what was going on downfield, we don't know what passes he could of made and didn't. There was a pass to I think Marshall that was off, but if he would of thrown it to him it would of been a pick as I think it was Sean Lee jumping in front of the pass. He seemed very hesitant, but not sure if it was because of the line, no one open or too scared to make a mistake.
RE: GFiS  
Giantfan in skinland : 9/11/2017 4:25 pm : link
In comment 13594443 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Will Denver's defense allow San Diego's offense to march the length of the field for the entire first half? That was a big factor last night.

That's a top tier offense with arguably the best run blocking unit in the league. They're going to move the ball and churn clock. We didn't stuff them...but the D stiffened when it needed to. You see that as somehow hurting the O's ability to put together any semblance of a sustained offensive drive. I see the latter as contributing to the D's inability to get off the field (especially as the game went on). Asking for more from the D under those conditions was asking for a perfect game. Asking for more from the O is just asking for basic competence.
RE: RE: GFiS  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/11/2017 6:04 pm : link
In comment 13594636 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
In comment 13594443 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Will Denver's defense allow San Diego's offense to march the length of the field for the entire first half? That was a big factor last night.



That's a top tier offense with arguably the best run blocking unit in the league. They're going to move the ball and churn clock. We didn't stuff them...but the D stiffened when it needed to. You see that as somehow hurting the O's ability to put together any semblance of a sustained offensive drive. I see the latter as contributing to the D's inability to get off the field (especially as the game went on). Asking for more from the D under those conditions was asking for a perfect game. Asking for more from the O is just asking for basic competence.

The D was allowing sustained drives even early in the game. That wasn't on the offense (yet, at that point). Football is a complementary game. The D could have helped give the O better field position; the O could have given the D some rest (and scored some points). It's not as simple as finding one scapegoat unit.
Look...  
Giantfan in skinland : 9/11/2017 6:11 pm : link
I understand the D wasn't helping us win the field position game. But do we really think the offensive results are much different if they're starting at 30-35 instead of the 10-15. Perhaps marginally, but we couldn't get a first down.

I'm not saying the D played a perfect game. They didn't. But against the quality of opponent they were up against....they did more than enough in my book. The same cannot be said for the O. At all.
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