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Realistic changes to the OL

The_Taxman : 9/11/2017 12:37 pm
We can't expect to do anything this year with last night's dismal play from the OL. Yes, Eli was bad but he's shell shocked. The right side of the pocket collapsed within 3 seconds all night long. That wears on a QB physically and mentally. Changes need to be made before Monday night. It's beyond ridiculous to wait any longer. Jerry is horrible and not getting any better. Hart was a 7th round pick for a reason. I don't see the potential in him that others do. Now what can we realistically do to better this mess of an o-line?

We worked out John Greco last week. If he's healthy, I would sign him and plug him in at RG. I'd also bench Hart and give Wheeler a shot at RT.

Another possibility, if Greco isn't fully healthy or didn't have a great work out with us, is to make changes internally. I'm still not sold on Flowers as a LT. I think he could be an effective mauling run blocking RG since he wouldn't have to always concentrate on his footwork. So move Flowers to RG, kick Pugh outside to LT, put Jones at LG, and give Wheeler a shot at RT.

Something has to be done with this OL. Sitting around waiting for this unit to get better as constituted is going to ruin this season.
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RE: RE: I'd call Cleveland  
Milton : 9/11/2017 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13594205 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Find a left tackle, move Flowers to RG, and go from there.
They can't simply move Flowers to RG unless you are talking about next year. He hasn't practiced there, the footwork is different on the other side of center, techniques are different, assignments are different, etc. And Flowers appears to be a guy who spends a long time on a learning curve.
RE: RE: I'd call Cleveland  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 9/11/2017 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13594226 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13594201 Tim in Eternal Blue said:


Quote:


And see what they want for Joe Thomas. A 2nd round pick seems to be the going rate these days. Hell they paid 18 million for one to get Osweiler.



Cleveland isn't trading Joe Thomas, and sure as hell not for a 2nd rounder. Even if they did, could we fit him under our cap? The answers to our OL woes are going to have to be found in-house.


I totally agree. I know we won't trade. But damn. Honestly... Watching Jerry last night made me think of 5 year olds playing football for the first time. Like they just took the little chubby fat kid and told him to stand there. I'm not trying to exaggerate. Jerry is the worst lineman I've ever seen play the game of football.
The change to Jones and Fluker can hurt  
Rjanyg : 9/11/2017 1:08 pm : link
I think we could at least run the ball which would help the passing game.
RE: I'd call Cleveland  
djstat : 9/11/2017 1:11 pm : link
In comment 13594201 Tim in Eternal Blue said:
Quote:
And see what they want for Joe Thomas. A 2nd round pick seems to be the going rate these days. Hell they paid 18 million for one to get Osweiler.
I'd give up a #1
I think they are committed to Jerry right now....  
Simms11 : 9/11/2017 1:13 pm : link
I really hate to say it, but Fluker didn't even get a game jersey last night! Jones might be an option, but that's probably about it this year, unless Fluker starts to pick it up in practice?! Wheeler is just too weak at for NFL defenses. He's got decent technique, but needs to build strength. I would think, with a good off-season conditioning program, that he could compete with Flowers at LT next year and then possibly look to move Flowers to the right side, probably at RT, pushing hart to the bench or inside to Guard. I thought Hart played fairly well at RG in his rookie season, albeit in a limited role.
Start with Jerry out and Jones or Fluker in  
PatersonPlank : 9/11/2017 1:15 pm : link
If that improves the right side good, if not then Wheeler in for Hart. I thought Pugh and Flowers were fine
at this point you have to scheme it towards  
idiotsavant : 9/11/2017 1:16 pm : link
things the OL kids can do, can achieve, will do well at and ultimately enjoy.

To me, [whomever makes these calls] has been tone deaf, a mismatched system / people combo.

Either start 'hands outside' or whatever the fuck green bay does, or start with heavy doses even base of quick hitting Denver/Atlanta outside zone runs, or something, anything these kids can do and do well, and build the system around that.

Its not like they haven't had 3 years to see this.
you guys always get hung up on 1st round tackles  
idiotsavant : 9/11/2017 1:21 pm : link
and threw no end of shit my way when I suggested here that we go G,C,G 1,2,3 in the early draft rounds. "or G,DT,G,C" or what have you.

lacking that, next day after draft or so, I suggested we go for a shanahan type thing, quick hitting outside zone runs and play action, 12 and 13 personel with our new tight ends.

doing neither any part of 1, the draft, or 2, the schematic changes, shows me that they are not dealing with reality right at the moment.
RE: But does Hart look bad because of Jerry?  
wonderback : 9/11/2017 1:34 pm : link
In comment 13594230 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
Hart got beat a bunch, but recovered enough to give room for Eli to step up.


Agree.
Im for  
Dankbeerman : 9/11/2017 1:35 pm : link
Pugh,jones,richburg,fluker,flowers.

we cant run or pass block now, lets try to go for the best run blocking we can get.
C'mon guys  
wonderback : 9/11/2017 1:36 pm : link
The only realistic short term fix is moving Jones in for Jerry. Some of the other stuff on this thread is not very realistic. Let's start with this and see if some progress can be made.
If we get beat by 4 DL every week its going to be a long season  
PatersonPlank : 9/11/2017 1:45 pm : link
That leaves 7 defenders to cover our receivers. If they rush 4 we should be able to run and pass protect.
wonderback  
idiotsavant : 9/11/2017 1:48 pm : link
it was possibly more realistic in march as opposed to september
This OL play is so awful  
gmenatlarge : 9/11/2017 1:55 pm : link
it begs the question-what exactly do you have to do to lose your job on this shitshow? Get the QB killed...
The biggest problem is the scheme  
Dave on the UWS : 9/11/2017 1:55 pm : link
and the philosophy. Offensive lines stink around the league. Bench Jerry and stop running GB crappy offense (we don't have AR). The route trees in this offense is laughable.
move Pugh to tackle  
Vanzetti : 9/11/2017 1:56 pm : link
Put Hart at G or maybe give Fluker a shot. I would also have Richburg on a short leash. Give Jones and Halapio a shot.

RE: The biggest problem is the scheme  
Vanzetti : 9/11/2017 1:57 pm : link
In comment 13594373 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
and the philosophy. Offensive lines stink around the league. Bench Jerry and stop running GB crappy offense (we don't have AR). The route trees in this offense is laughable.


Given that the Giants generally throw passes under five yards, I think route "trees" is a bit of a misnomer. How about route shrubs?
Better play calling  
Fish : 9/11/2017 2:00 pm : link
Could help as well. Establish a run game with power package.
Yea but  
nicky43 : 9/11/2017 2:10 pm : link
the left side and Center weren't any good either. The only one playing worth a shit on the o-line is Pughe.
Unfortunately  
nicky43 : 9/11/2017 2:11 pm : link
The fix to the o-line that we need is NOT on the team now.
If trading isn't an option,  
Go Terps : 9/11/2017 2:13 pm : link
then I'm starting the Detroit game with Wheeler at left tackle, Jones at right guard, and Fluker at right tackle.

There isn't a guy on this offensive line that should feel like he deserves his job.
Giants are stubborn  
Harvest Blend : 9/11/2017 2:16 pm : link
to a fault. They won't do anything.

That said, I agree with Go Terps just above.
I would go with  
Giants86 : 9/11/2017 2:23 pm : link
Pugh/Hart/Richburg/Fluker/Flowrs

I would put Flowers at Right tackle or right guard.

Shift Hart to left guard.

Insert Fluker or Jones.

We are screwed. be great to find someone out there?
RE: If trading isn't an option,  
The_Taxman : 9/11/2017 2:25 pm : link
In comment 13594416 Go Terps said:
Quote:
then I'm starting the Detroit game with Wheeler at left tackle, Jones at right guard, and Fluker at right tackle.

There isn't a guy on this offensive line that should feel like he deserves his job.



Agree 100%. My whole point in starting this thread was to convey that change is needed to this o-line. And I know we aren't making a deal for a Thomas or Staley. We can make a much needed dramatic change internally and/or also bring in a vet like Greco. But I'm all for what you said too. Other than Pugh, not 1 guy on this line should feel safe.
RE: Giants are stubborn  
SHO'NUFF : 9/11/2017 2:44 pm : link
In comment 13594424 Harvest Blend said:
Quote:
to a fault. They won't do anything.

That said, I agree with Go Terps just above.


I thought the stubborn part was only a TC thing, but Benny Mac is giving him a run for his money.
RE: Im for  
Rjanyg : 9/11/2017 2:48 pm : link
In comment 13594308 Dankbeerman said:
Quote:
Pugh,jones,richburg,fluker,flowers.

we cant run or pass block now, lets try to go for the best run blocking we can get.


This might be serviceable.
RE: RE: I'd call Cleveland  
Boy Cord : 9/11/2017 3:02 pm : link
In comment 13594205 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13594201 Tim in Eternal Blue said:


Quote:


And see what they want for Joe Thomas. A 2nd round pick seems to be the going rate these days. Hell they paid 18 million for one to get Osweiler.



I agree with this. Find a left tackle, move Flowers to RG, and go from there.


Duane Brown is sitting at home. Call the Texans. We need something dramatic to happen or this team won't sniff the playoffs. Not with this schedule.
Pugh and Richburg are OK  
jcn56 : 9/11/2017 3:02 pm : link
I get that Richburg isn't as good as we thought he might be, but he's no worse than an average NFL center. Pugh's above average, if not by much.

Flowers had his moments last night, but wasn't as bad as he seemed for large swaths of last year.

Jerry and Hart were the worst by far, with Jerry looking completely lost at times. I wonder (guessing, nothing to back it up with) if the fact that he wasn't able to cash in on his contract year has affected his effort at all.

Put Jerry on the bench, throw Jones in at RG, and let Hart know he's next man up for the pine if he doesn't improve.

There was mention that he suffered an ankle injury last night, so maybe Hart gets a pass (*maybe*).
With all of Flowers' struggle with technique  
jcn56 : 9/11/2017 3:03 pm : link
Why do people think he's going to magically jump to the right side of the line and not skip a beat?
RE: Did Wheeler  
Beer Man : 9/11/2017 3:23 pm : link
In comment 13594189 phil in arizona said:
Quote:
play RT at all during the preseason?

I posted on another thread that it would have been nice to see Flowers get some work at RT in the preseason, but considering that he hasn't spent any time over there I think the only options are Jones at RG and Fluker at RT.
Wheeler is not currently strong enough to play RT. This was supposed to be a PS year to give him the opportunity to bulk up and improve his strength. He exceed expectations during the pre-season and is now on the 53-man; but he still needs to add strength and bulk (IMHO)
Why would Cleveland give Joe Thomas away?  
UConn4523 : 9/11/2017 3:28 pm : link
they just hung in there against Pitt and Kizer was already getting hit but took his shots like a man. If they like him long term why would they weaken his protection?

We'd have to blow the Browns away with an offer which would be a huge mistake.
The time for multiple changes/experimentation was during preseason  
Watson : 9/11/2017 3:53 pm : link
that time is over. Other than Hart getting some 1st team snaps, there was none of it. There was no experimentation of what 5 guys made the best combination. It seem to me the coaching staff bought into the conventional wisdom that last year's line just needed more time together. If that was the plan, they should have had more snaps in preseason games. Did anyone really think they were ready?

I'm certainly no expert and will concede to those who know better, that Hart didn't grade out better than Jerry. However, to my eye the unit as whole played better with Hart. He maybe lacking in strength but he plays smart and hangs in there more than one can say about Jerry. He's clearly the weakest link.

At this point other than signing another vet., replacing Jerry with Hart is the only viable option. If Hart isn't given 1st team snaps in this week's practices, McAdoo brings a whole new meaning to the word stubborn.
RE: RE: RE: I'd call Cleveland  
TyreeHelmet : 9/11/2017 4:03 pm : link
In comment 13594491 Boy Cord said:
Quote:
In comment 13594205 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 13594201 Tim in Eternal Blue said:


Quote:


And see what they want for Joe Thomas. A 2nd round pick seems to be the going rate these days. Hell they paid 18 million for one to get Osweiler.



I agree with this. Find a left tackle, move Flowers to RG, and go from there.



Duane Brown is sitting at home. Call the Texans. We need something dramatic to happen or this team won't sniff the playoffs. Not with this schedule.


What would you feel comfortable giving up for Brown? I still think they should have signed Whitworth....Only got 15 mill guaranteed.
It starts with John Jerry to the bench....  
Torrag : 9/11/2017 4:10 pm : link
...or better yet on the street. Maybe Hart improves if he isn't playing next to a total bum. So try that first then see how it goes for a couple of games. If that doesn't do it then Hart is next to the chopping block.
I don t think they make any changes  
joeinpa : 9/11/2017 4:16 pm : link
MacAdoo s answer about the O line problems last night, "It s technique " leads me to believe they still look at it as a work in progress.

My question is at what point is he guilty of:

If you keep doing what you re doing, you ll keep getting what you re getting.

That performance last night, combined with the ineptitude of the last two years for this unit, makes it difficult to think of this team as a serious contender.

Pretty big game Monday. Don t want to go into Phily 0-2

Giants miss play offs this year because of that line, can t be good for Reese.
I would say that Flowers and Pugh are alright for now  
GeorgeAdams33 : 9/11/2017 4:21 pm : link
Weston Ragdoll, John Geritol and Bobby all Hart no talent need to sit down.


I would insert Jones at Center, Fluker at RG, and then I would throw the 49ers a conditional 7th round pick for the rights to RT-Anthony Davis. If Solari can talk the 27 year old former Rutgers star out of retirement we might have a chance to save our season.
Yeah, it's this shit again.....  
GeorgeAdams33 : 9/11/2017 4:23 pm : link
We are THAT desperate.
.  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 9/11/2017 4:23 pm : link
.  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 9/11/2017 4:24 pm : link
That was legit JJ, all night last night.
RE: If trading isn't an option,  
GiantTuff1 : 9/11/2017 4:29 pm : link
In comment 13594416 Go Terps said:
Quote:
then I'm starting the Detroit game with Wheeler at left tackle, Jones at right guard, and Fluker at right tackle.

There isn't a guy on this offensive line that should feel like he deserves his job.


I agree, SOMETHING has to be done this is ridiculous.

Jerry needs to ride the pine that much is absolutely necessary...

Even
Pugh Jones Richburg Fluker Flowers

With Jones or Fluker flippable between LG and RG... whoever is most comfortable... Hart can renter the Guard discussion if one of Jones or Fluker stars failing...

Nobody should be safe with their job, and fear should motivate.

Not sure if I'd throw Wheeler out there just yet... that might be even more of a train wreck, but I guess if the O-line is going to go down in a flaming heap might as well work the experience angle and if he starts doing well that would be heartwarming.
RE: The time for multiple changes/experimentation was during preseason  
Watson : 9/11/2017 4:31 pm : link
In comment 13594578 Watson said:
Quote:
that time is over. Other than Hart getting some 1st team snaps, there was none of it. There was no experimentation of what 5 guys made the best combination. It seem to me the coaching staff bought into the conventional wisdom that last year's line just needed more time together. If that was the plan, they should have had more snaps in preseason games. Did anyone really think they were ready?

I'm certainly no expert and will concede to those who know better, that Hart didn't grade out better than Jerry. However, to my eye the unit as whole played better with Hart. He maybe lacking in strength but he plays smart and hangs in there more than one can say about Jerry. He's clearly the weakest link.

At this point other than signing another vet., replacing Jerry with Hart is the only viable option. If Hart isn't given 1st team snaps in this week's practices, McAdoo brings a whole new meaning to the word stubborn.


Oops meant Jones in my comments not Hart.
RE: .  
Beer Man : 9/11/2017 5:03 pm : link
In comment 13594630 Tim in Eternal Blue said:
Quote:
That was legit JJ, all night last night.
What's just as bad in that clip is that Newhouse, Jerry , and Rich are all standing their and watching their RB get slammed to the ground
Jerry is a problem, but he isn't the only one  
Go Terps : 9/11/2017 5:07 pm : link
I wouldn't point to any of the starting five as a plus player that, as a GM, I wouldn't be actively looking to replace.

It's impossible to say for sure but the circumstantial evidence points to an organizational problem with regards to scouting and/or coaching OL talent.
Jerry should be cut  
JohnF : 9/11/2017 5:39 pm : link
as soon as the coaching staff looks at the game tapes. Just replacing him is a huge improvement. He can't run block, he's awful at picking up line games, and you're putting your 20 million dollar QB at risk.

I'd start Jones next game...if Hart does not improve, then I'd put Pugh at RT, and have this:

Flowers/Jones/Richburg/Fluker/Pugh

At the very least, Jerry needs to clean out his locker tomorrow. He just can't play.
RE: I think they are committed to Jerry right now....  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/11/2017 6:25 pm : link
In comment 13594271 Simms11 said:
Quote:
I really hate to say it, but Fluker didn't even get a game jersey last night! Jones might be an option, but that's probably about it this year, unless Fluker starts to pick it up in practice?! Wheeler is just too weak at for NFL defenses. He's got decent technique, but needs to build strength. I would think, with a good off-season conditioning program, that he could compete with Flowers at LT next year and then possibly look to move Flowers to the right side, probably at RT, pushing hart to the bench or inside to Guard. I thought Hart played fairly well at RG in his rookie season, albeit in a limited role.

The reason why Fluker didn't get a shirt isn't necessarily an indictment of his standing within the team. They have been consistently dressing seven OL for the past few years, so that only leaves two backup shirts. Fluker doesn't play C or LT, which puts him at an immediate disadvantage - they dressed a backup C/G, and a backup T who can at least nominally play LT. It's really not that complicated.
Trade  
Mkdaman1818 : 9/11/2017 7:36 pm : link
See if joe Thomas is available, if he's not then try a Duane Brown trade with Houston. We cannot do this to Eli.
RE: Trade  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/11/2017 7:46 pm : link
In comment 13594874 Mkdaman1818 said:
Quote:
See if joe Thomas is available, if he's not then try a Duane Brown trade with Houston. We cannot do this to Eli.

I don't disagree with this idea (and would throw Staley in as well). And if we need cap room, ask Eli to restructure. I mean, if we can't do this to Eli, surely he doesn't want to do it to himself, either.
We are better off finding 4 sumo wrestlers  
EricJ : 9/11/2017 8:38 pm : link
to flank Richberg. They have much better footwork, know about leverage and have power.

Sounds ridiculous but I bet they would get a better push and would protect Eli
Realistic changes?  
santacruzom : 9/11/2017 9:07 pm : link
I wouldn't be surprised if every offensive lineman we have changed back to their original form of a heart-shaped, half-inflated helium balloon. That seems realistic to me.
Lines they are a changin  
Maineline : 9/12/2017 7:51 am : link
Move our best offensive lineman Pugh to left tackle. Put Jones in Pugh's left guard position to help Richburg at center. Move Flowers to RT and put Fluker next to him at RT. Try to establish a power running game on the right side with a pissed of Flowers and mammoth Fluke. Start Darkwa at RB.
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