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What COULD the Giants have done to improve the OL....

lawguy9801 : 9/11/2017 10:45 pm
....in the offseason?

I was extremely busy at work basically from January to June and did not have the time to closely follow free agency and the draft.

Who were the good OL available high in the draft that we passed up?

Who were the available FA lineman that we didn't sign and fit under the salary cap?

In order to determine whether Reese should be blamed for not upgrading the line (as many are doing on BBI), there should be a comprehensive review of what could have been done, who he drafted or signed instead, and whether the team as a whole would have been better off.
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RE: Go back two years  
NoGainDayne : 9/11/2017 11:40 pm : link
In comment 13595159 FranknWeezer said:
Quote:
Tunsil in lieu of Apple. That would have been a game changer for this OL.


I'm still on Glenn over Wilson. This has been a problem for a while and we just have done nothing about it.
Not resign John Jerry  
blueblood : 9/11/2017 11:42 pm : link
move Flowers to Right Tackle.. Put Fluker at RG. Spend money on a veteran Left Tackle.

You would have had massive beef on the right side of the line and a veteran LT to protect Eli's blind side.

Lamp tore his ACL  
ZGiants98 : 9/11/2017 11:43 pm : link
On a pull play where "he went down in a lot of traffic". How in the world do we know that happens with us? Anyone can tear an ACL and it's almost completely up to the randomness of the play/situation.

I'm going to get off my Lamp soap box but when our resident draft guru is flat out drooling over the guy... calling him the best in the draft.... and he's there for the taking... that's a little annoying.

Again... oh well.
I choked on the Apple pick  
Paulie Walnuts : 9/11/2017 11:45 pm : link
should have been an OL there
Also Ron Leary at RG  
Giantfan in skinland : 9/11/2017 11:48 pm : link
Seems to be paying dividends for the Broncos O-Line so far.
Ramcyk(?) looked pretty good this evening  
NYRiese : 9/11/2017 11:51 pm : link
...
People forget we are 10 million under the cap right now  
ZGiants98 : 9/11/2017 11:51 pm : link
Whitworth got 3/36 (15 guaranteed)

We essentially could have still had our entire offseason minus Jerry and signed him under the cap.
Wanted Cam Robinson  
WillVAB : 9/11/2017 11:53 pm : link
Thought he was the best run blocking tackle in the draft and def would've been an upgrade over Hart. Looks like the real deal in JAX.

Engram seems like a nice player but he loses value if the offense can't or won't use him to threaten defenses down the middle of the field.

Whitworth/Reiff/Leary would've been nice options in FA but they were expensive. Definitely don't get Marshall and maybe lose some core guys in the future due to the cap.

Unfortunately OL seems to be a blind spot for Reese. The dominant OL from 07 was essentially built by Accorsi. That unit got old a little too fast and Reese didn't have anything in the pipeline. Beatty was a developmental guy who got hurt when he seemed to be coming into his own. Baas didn't live up to expectations. All the mid to late round picks were busts. Schwartz was a failed FA. Sintim over Unger. Wilson over Glenn. Here we are.
Not buying the salary part.  
ZGiants98 : 9/12/2017 12:00 am : link
Somebody like Whitworth is only getting 15 million guaranteed. You pay him 12 this year and your pretty much done. You can restructure him down in year 3. That's not going to hurt you in in negotiations with Odell and the rest next year at all IMO.
Giants didn't become competitive again in the 1980's until George  
plato : 9/12/2017 12:08 am : link
Young arrived in ? 1979 and after drafting Phil Simms (who?) and LT, he began the era of drafting big offensive lineman, (dancing elephants). He believed greatly in big strong o lineman. And we went on to greatness.

Maybe Reese et al need a lesson in Giant history to improve Giant drafting and performance. Reese certainly needs something.
Tunsil  
Peppers : 9/12/2017 12:10 am : link
One of the biggest mistakes we made was passing on him for Eli Apple.
RE: Not buying the salary part.  
WillVAB : 9/12/2017 12:11 am : link
In comment 13595180 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
Somebody like Whitworth is only getting 15 million guaranteed. You pay him 12 this year and your pretty much done. You can restructure him down in year 3. That's not going to hurt you in in negotiations with Odell and the rest next year at all IMO.


It would be tough to make it work. Not just Odell -- Collins, Pugh, Richberg...maybe DRC. Most likely you're probably put to a decision between keeping a good aging vet you just signed (Whitworth) or overpaying for Richberg or Pugh. Awkward spot.

It would be nice to have Whitworth and Cam Robinson right now though. I think we'd feel a hell of a lot better about the offense.
RE: RE: Not buying the salary part.  
ZGiants98 : 9/12/2017 12:17 am : link
In comment 13595190 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 13595180 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


Somebody like Whitworth is only getting 15 million guaranteed. You pay him 12 this year and your pretty much done. You can restructure him down in year 3. That's not going to hurt you in in negotiations with Odell and the rest next year at all IMO.



It would be tough to make it work. Not just Odell -- Collins, Pugh, Richberg...maybe DRC. Most likely you're probably put to a decision between keeping a good aging vet you just signed (Whitworth) or overpaying for Richberg or Pugh. Awkward spot.

It would be nice to have Whitworth and Cam Robinson right now though. I think we'd feel a hell of a lot better about the offense.


I agree with what your saying but it's going to be tough either way signing all the players you mentioned. We are currently 10 million under the cap. Forget Jerry and we could have pretty much spent the guaranteed portion of Whitworth's contract this year alone. If it was an issue later we could have asked for a restructure or simply cut him. Changes nothing.
RE: RE: RE: Not buying the salary part.  
WillVAB : 9/12/2017 12:37 am : link
In comment 13595191 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13595190 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 13595180 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


Somebody like Whitworth is only getting 15 million guaranteed. You pay him 12 this year and your pretty much done. You can restructure him down in year 3. That's not going to hurt you in in negotiations with Odell and the rest next year at all IMO.



It would be tough to make it work. Not just Odell -- Collins, Pugh, Richberg...maybe DRC. Most likely you're probably put to a decision between keeping a good aging vet you just signed (Whitworth) or overpaying for Richberg or Pugh. Awkward spot.

It would be nice to have Whitworth and Cam Robinson right now though. I think we'd feel a hell of a lot better about the offense.



I agree with what your saying but it's going to be tough either way signing all the players you mentioned. We are currently 10 million under the cap. Forget Jerry and we could have pretty much spent the guaranteed portion of Whitworth's contract this year alone. If it was an issue later we could have asked for a restructure or simply cut him. Changes nothing.


Whitworth turns 36 in December and signed a 3 year 36 million dollar contract. You don't want to restructure a guy at that age. Cut him after one year and you're getting the dead money hit plus a hole in the starting lineup.

My issue is there simply hasn't been a commitment to solidifying the OL. It's been a series of half measures. The OL has been an issue for a while now. They addressed it with Flowers, Pugh, and Richberg. That hasn't been good enough obviously. Whitworth and Robinson would've provided the pieces to field a complete, talented, unit in the short term. I think Robinson alone would make the OL better.

I really hope Engram is a stud because right now that pick is somewhat of a head scratcher. Tye was serviceable. They got Lacosse back. Adams flashed. They paid for Ellison.
I agree with you 100% and that's my issue also  
ZGiants98 : 9/12/2017 12:42 am : link
I get tired of hearing we've spent high picks on o lineman and made it a priority. Have we? My issue is this past offseason right now. The line wasn't good last year and we are running out of time. Eli is 36. I certainly would have made fixing the line a massive priority this season.
RE: I agree with you 100% and that's my issue also  
WillVAB : 9/12/2017 12:58 am : link
In comment 13595200 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
I get tired of hearing we've spent high picks on o lineman and made it a priority. Have we? My issue is this past offseason right now. The line wasn't good last year and we are running out of time. Eli is 36. I certainly would have made fixing the line a massive priority this season.


Yep. Everyone knew it was the issue and they addressed everything but. Very frustrating.
The Giants could of still got Evan Ingram  
prdave73 : 9/12/2017 1:06 am : link
and got Cam Robinson in the 2nd rd! think about it. They could of traded to the 2nd spot of the 2nd rd and taken him. The Giants did it with Landon Collins why not for Cam?? This is what confuses me about Reese..
The Vikings have 5 new starters on the line  
SHO'NUFF : 9/12/2017 1:10 am : link
and they looked stout.

A new OL coach, for starters.
RE: The Giants could of still got Evan Ingram  
Milton : 9/12/2017 3:13 am : link
In comment 13595213 prdave73 said:
Quote:
and got Cam Robinson in the 2nd rd! think about it. They could of traded to the 2nd spot of the 2nd rd and taken him. The Giants did it with Landon Collins why not for Cam?? This is what confuses me about Reese..
The Giants were much closer to the top of round 2 when they traded the 40th pick (plus 4th and 7th rounders) to move up to the 33rd pick and select Collins. To move up to the 34th spot (where Robinson was selected) from the 55th spot (their 2nd round pick) would've cost them their 3rd round pick as well plus a day two pick in 2018 (going by the trade value chart). So that wasn't gonna happen.

But what they could've done is trade down with the Niners, who began the day with the 34th pick and offered it along with the 111th and 143rd picks for the Giants 1st round pick. They then could've selected Robinson with the 34th pick and either Dion Dawkins or Taylor Moton with the 55th pick. After that the Giants could've packaged some combination of their 87th, 111th, 140th, and 143rd picks to add more speed to the offense (either at WR, TE, or RB) and/or a DT.

But hindsight is 20/20. And by the end of the year we could be talking about what a steal it was to get Engram with the 23rd pick and Tomlinson with the 55th.
bottom line  
gmenatlarge : 9/12/2017 6:43 am : link
who the fuck cares???? what are they going to do now is all that matters!!!
i would have drafted Tunsil.....instead of Eli Apple  
George from PA : 9/12/2017 7:15 am : link
when he dropped even with that stupid mask....
he was not a bad kid.....and off the chart LT talent.

mive flowers to Right

OL fixed imo


i also do not believe we lost to Dallas due to OL
Andrew Whitworth is getting rave reviews  
barens : 9/12/2017 7:33 am : link
In LA after his first game..
Excellent thread  
Rjanyg : 9/12/2017 7:38 am : link
I hate to say it but Bolles looked pretty good last night. He wasn't perfect but he is gonna be a good one. Ramchyk looked pretty good as well.

But let's understand that all the OT in the draft had question marks. The big question for me is the RG spot. Fluker can't be worse than Jerry. I am pretty sure Jones is better. We need to be able to run the ball and it starts at RG. Feeney or Lamp would have been nice additions even Ron Leary. Zeitler got a huge contact but look how bad Cincy was without him last week.

Unfortunately we have a FO that seems to think  
widmerseyebrow : 9/12/2017 8:05 am : link
That hedging your bets is an admission of failure. It seems to me there is an agenda to not create competition at OL spots occupied by draft picks.
What kills me is that bringing in an OT  
widmerseyebrow : 9/12/2017 8:11 am : link
Could have been done with very little downside. At worst we're paying three starting caliber tackles, but one of those tackles is on a 7th round contract-back up money. And let's not pretend Hart would have beaten out any of the aforementioned possibilities.
Lions got Greg Robinson  
CromartiesKid21 : 9/12/2017 8:16 am : link
for peanuts and he is now their starting OF. Granted he has been an epic bust but that toxic Jeff Fisher environment I'm sure had to do a lot with it.
RE: Lions got Greg Robinson  
CromartiesKid21 : 9/12/2017 8:20 am : link
In comment 13595295 CromartiesKid21 said:
Quote:
for peanuts and he is now their starting OF. Granted he has been an epic bust but that toxic Jeff Fisher environment I'm sure had to do a lot with it.

starting LT*
RE: The Vikings have 5 new starters on the line  
bigbluehoya : 9/12/2017 8:20 am : link
In comment 13595214 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
and they looked stout.

A new OL coach, for starters.


This. Somebody forgot to tell the Vikes that there were such a dearth of options available to re-tool an OL.

There is a LOT of middle ground between spending $15m/year on OL free agents and trotting out Bobby Hart and John Jerry as starters.
RE: The Vikings have 5 new starters on the line  
TyreeHelmet : 9/12/2017 8:22 am : link
In comment 13595214 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
and they looked stout.

A new OL coach, for starters.


It's funny how the Vikings and Broncos recognized an enrromous problem and addressed it. Giants have the same problem and didn't absolutely nothing to fix it. Why expect it to get better?

I'm a big Jerry Reese fan but this was a colossal mistake. Sign Whitworth and figure out the money- only 15 mill guaranteed. I'm not really worried about not being able to overpay Pugh or Richburg. Whitworth is a top level Left Tackle. Pugh and Richburg are average players at best.
RE: Excellent thread  
WillVAB : 9/12/2017 8:22 am : link
In comment 13595268 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
I hate to say it but Bolles looked pretty good last night. He wasn't perfect but he is gonna be a good one. Ramchyk looked pretty good as well.

But let's understand that all the OT in the draft had question marks. The big question for me is the RG spot. Fluker can't be worse than Jerry. I am pretty sure Jones is better. We need to be able to run the ball and it starts at RG. Feeney or Lamp would have been nice additions even Ron Leary. Zeitler got a huge contact but look how bad Cincy was without him last week.


Well all of the draftniks said it was a weak OL class but early returns are showing they were epically wrong. Right now it has to be one of the best value classes considering where these guys were picked.
RE: bottom line  
WillVAB : 9/12/2017 8:25 am : link
In comment 13595246 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
who the fuck cares???? what are they going to do now is all that matters!!!


There's nothing they can do besides get fleeced in a trade and probably hurt their cap situation. It's that or give the backups a shot.
Lots  
AcidTest : 9/12/2017 8:29 am : link
of options:

As someone said, they could have done the trade with the 49ers, and gotten 34, 111, and 143. But most people here thought Reese made the right call in not doing so. There was apparently a lot of interest to trade up to get Engram. Atlanta supposedly wanted him very badly.

Drafting Lamp or C. Robinson was more realistic, and then relying on Adams, Ellison, and LaCosse.

Might have also tried G. Robinson, although we did sign Fluker.

Whitworth is another possibility. But we had just spent $200M in FA the year before, so I'm not sure how realistic that would have been.

We accept what we have right now. Bench Jerry for Jones. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Wheeler at some point this season. He lacks mass, but has the feet to play tackle.
what could have they done?  
I Love Clams Casino : 9/12/2017 8:31 am : link
the opposite
Tunsil is the one  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 9/12/2017 8:32 am : link
He fell right into his lap.
I  
AcidTest : 9/12/2017 8:33 am : link
will also never criticize Reese for not taking Tunsil. Not after Will Hill. He needed a clean pick that high in the draft. I admit I didn't want Apple, that I wanted Reese trade down. But there were probably few partners that year willing to trade up into our spot, at least for a decent return. Reese also clearly wanted Conklin.
They could have generated competition with the guys they have  
UberAlias : 9/12/2017 8:47 am : link
Instead of handing the starting positions to a group that clearly did not get it done a year ago. They could also stop making excuses for the group and pointing the finger everywhere else every time McAdoo gets asked about the issues.

You preach "heavy-handedness" then stop babying them.

If the only redeeming quality you have is that you are supposedly good at pass blocking and have "continuity" with your starting linemates, but you continue to fall for the same damn basic stunt in the exact same situation, and you routinely get pushed backwards suffocating the pocket,, you don't deserve to be handed the starting job without second thought if someone could do the job better.

At least other guys don't get pushed back and can get some push in the running game. You think we could use a little of that?

How about we start there???
Also this is a 5 year problem  
chuckydee9 : 9/12/2017 8:48 am : link
We had infinite amount of possible solutions.. Alex Mack was available, Richie Incognito was available, Tunsil was a good kid who smoked pot but wasn't a damaged good like Gregory.. Those guys were just off the top of my head.. all three were highly regarded or highly rated.. Tunsil was rated leaps and bounds higher than Flowers.. Flowers was supposed to be a mid to late 1st round pick.. Tunsil was supposed to be pick #1.. JR has made a huge mess with this OL and there were tons of solutions over the past 5 years.. Even this year we could've moved down and gotten Lamb or Cam Robinson..
They could have taken a late flier on L Collins  
UberAlias : 9/12/2017 8:52 am : link
Instead of Hart. How did that tradeoff look on Sunday?
This offseason's resources were spent well  
annexOPR : 9/12/2017 8:54 am : link
Poor draft class and overpaid mediocre free agents wouldn't have been wise

This problem extends way beyond this offseason - it's been an issue for years, and is likely to derail what is otherwise a SB caliber roster

We need Odell back asap so he can turn slants into 80 yard TDs because this line is a joke
hire a new GM?  
Enzo : 9/12/2017 8:58 am : link
.
RE: This offseason's resources were spent well  
UberAlias : 9/12/2017 9:00 am : link
In comment 13595363 annexOPR said:
Quote:
Poor draft class and overpaid mediocre free agents wouldn't have been wise

Maybe spent well, but not used well. They neglected to generate any competition for the group that failed us a year ago. And the HC continues to deflect any suggestion that there's a problem.

Trades may be an option as well. Plenty of deals made this year but that's not the way this team operates. Seattle Atlanta NE and Philly are all open to improving their rosters this way and teams like the Jets Buffalo and Cleveland are open to moving resources.
3rd Year  
TyreeHelmet : 9/12/2017 9:07 am : link
This will be the third year of essentially the same personnel on the O line performing poorly. How do they not make any changes?

Do you think their reluctance to go after Whitworth was because they wanted Flowers to work at LT? Or did they not want to pay for a 36 year old? As Krath pointed out, his deal is structured for really only 1 year. How did they not pursue him?

I would have signed Whitworth, signed another lower priced FA, drafted an OL in the first 2 rounds, and moved flowers to RG. This could have drastically improved the line. Now I just don't see how this unit can improve... Talent isnt there and the depth is scary bad.
several things  
hitdog42 : 9/12/2017 9:11 am : link
1) chip with RB and TEs
2) run more 2 TE sets and use the middle of the field
3) be less generic and formation better
4) use Marshall's size
5) not have david carr syndrome in the pocket
6) try someone different at RG to at least have an OK run game... since pass blocking is less then ideal as well
By the way  
UberAlias : 9/12/2017 9:12 am : link
Here are all the teams who trades for Oline the past two months.

Atlanta - Sambrailo, Ty T
Ravens - Bergstrom, Tony C
Seahawks - Battle, Isaiah T
Ravens - Bowanko, Luke C
49ers - Tomlinson, Laken G
Chiefs - Erving, Cameron G
Jets - Hennessy, Thomas C
Redskins - Crowley, Lucas C
Seahawks - Tobin, Matt T
Broncos - Barbre, Allen G
Saints- Dorenbos, Jon C

And again, my biggest issues is their failing to generate competition. But beyond that, if I were the GM I would leave no stone unturned in effort to fix this.
RE: By the way  
TyreeHelmet : 9/12/2017 9:24 am : link
In comment 13595402 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Here are all the teams who trades for Oline the past two months.

Atlanta - Sambrailo, Ty T
Ravens - Bergstrom, Tony C
Seahawks - Battle, Isaiah T
Ravens - Bowanko, Luke C
49ers - Tomlinson, Laken G
Chiefs - Erving, Cameron G
Jets - Hennessy, Thomas C
Redskins - Crowley, Lucas C
Seahawks - Tobin, Matt T
Broncos - Barbre, Allen G
Saints- Dorenbos, Jon C

And again, my biggest issues is their failing to generate competition. But beyond that, if I were the GM I would leave no stone unturned in effort to fix this.


Why not trade for Greg Robinson who is now the starting left tackle for the Lions? Only cost them a 6th round pick and 1 year left on his deal at 3 mill. Could have let him compete with Flowers for the LT spot.

My biggest issue with Reese was not bringing in any competition for this putrid unit. Make them earn their jobs. Who really competed with Flowers for that position???
He brings in competition for Jerry  
Rflairr : 9/12/2017 9:39 am : link
and this clown of a Head Coach still starts Jerry
If this season happens  
Carson53 : 9/12/2017 9:51 am : link
to go down the tubes as a result of not improving the O Line,
only one man is to blame. Players like Tomlinson and Cameron Erving were acquired right before the start of the season!
I think a 5th rounder was used for Erving, not sure on Tomlinson. Some of the other free agents in the offseason
were getting about 12 mill. AAV, like a Riley Rieff.
Whitworth got that much, and if they signed him,
well than Reese would be admitting that Flowers was a bust.
Jerry's ego won't allow that...I am not going to blame him
for not drafting someone who had a bong in his face, other teams passed on Tunsil as well.
RE: He brings in competition for Jerry  
Carson53 : 9/12/2017 9:56 am : link
In comment 13595462 Rflairr said:
Quote:
and this clown of a Head Coach still starts Jerry
.

I would hope Jones or Fluker is starting soon. Hart has
'an ankle', might be out on Monday. Maybe Chad Wheeler
gets a start?
Vikings  
Giants : 9/12/2017 11:18 am : link
the Vikings have 5 new starting OL this season. They did it in one off season. Meanwhile Reese resigned Jerry and signed D.J. Fluker.
Does anyone  
area junc : 9/12/2017 11:33 am : link
in MIA really care that Tunsil smoked pot in college? Look at Zeke, a vial human being. These guys are walking all over the NFL.

Now Tunsil is an excellent LT playing in an excellent scheme for Adam Gase!
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