....in the offseason?
I was extremely busy at work basically from January to June and did not have the time to closely follow free agency and the draft.
Who were the good OL available high in the draft that we passed up?
Who were the available FA lineman that we didn't sign and fit under the salary cap?
In order to determine whether Reese should be blamed for not upgrading the line (as many are doing on BBI), there should be a comprehensive review of what could have been done, who he drafted or signed instead, and whether the team as a whole would have been better off.
There was a lot of ways we could of gone. Robinson... Ramcyk... both could have probably at least been an upgrade at guard. Dave TE had Lamp as the best lineman in the draft (a Zack Martin clone) and said we should RUN to the podium if he was there. I'm still pissed we didn't. I like Engram but Adams and LaCosse have looked great and maybe you take somebody like Jake Butt in the 4th to groom. Upgrading the line should have been priority one IMO.
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Looked very good.
There was a lot of ways we could of gone. Robinson... Ramcyk... both could have probably at least been an upgrade at guard. Dave TE had Lamp as the best lineman in the draft (a Zack Martin clone) and said we should RUN to the podium if he was there. I'm still pissed we didn't. I like Engram but Adams and LaCosse have looked great and maybe you take somebody like Jake Butt in the 4th to groom. Upgrading the line should have been priority one IMO.
When were all these guys taken? Would they have been reaches for our Engram pick?
A draft pick is a tougher sell as the Giants first two picks from this class not only filled needs they look good as well. Plus the rookie OL around the NFL this year don't look that great, at least without looking too deeply into it. I know ramzyk had his problems tonight.
I was advocating for Riley all off season. Played a good RT for the lions and wasn't god awful at LT for them when he played. Tonight he looked ok at LT for the Vikings. His versatility would have helped here. But again, he was signed for a pretty penny.
A draft pick is a tougher sell as the Giants first two picks from this class not only filled needs they look good as well. Plus the rookie OL around the NFL this year don't look that great, at least without looking too deeply into it. I know ramzyk had his problems tonight.
I was advocating for Riley all off season. Played a good RT for the lions and wasn't god awful at LT for them when he played. Tonight he looked ok at LT for the Vikings. His versatility would have helped here. But again, he was signed for a pretty penny.
This. Marshall doesn't help us with no protection. Lewis and King both showed promise. Eli has shown he can throw to lesser receivers with time as well. They made the "sexy" move. It seemed like Whitworth was interested too they just didn't seem to want to pay the price and have this stubborn Flowers at LT thing. I'd much rather see Flowers and Hart compete for RT, I think a lot of people would.
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In comment 13595110 prdave73 said:
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Looked very good.
There was a lot of ways we could of gone. Robinson... Ramcyk... both could have probably at least been an upgrade at guard. Dave TE had Lamp as the best lineman in the draft (a Zack Martin clone) and said we should RUN to the podium if he was there. I'm still pissed we didn't. I like Engram but Adams and LaCosse have looked great and maybe you take somebody like Jake Butt in the 4th to groom. Upgrading the line should have been priority one IMO.
When were all these guys taken? Would they have been reaches for our Engram pick?
No. All were supposed to go around where we picked. My biggest beef is Lamp. Guy played LT all throughout college but "fell" because he might have to settle at guard. Almost everyone agreed taking that out of it he was the best lineman in the draft pound for pound. Well guess what? I would loved a Zack Martin clone at RG right about now. He did tear his ACL in a preseason game but there is no chance we know if that happens with us. Actually, I'd say chances are greater it doesn't.
The
In terms of free agents, Riley's contract was comparable to the 3 big contracts we gave last year and isn't close to our signings. He's better than what we have but not a difference maker. Whitsworth would have been a major upgrade but he's 35 & signed a 3 year deal. Thats tough to match & word was he was staying in Cinc but for the 3rd year.
I was expecting more from Fluker. Still, as disappointed as I am, it's still all about the options that were available & it's not like there were obvious missed opportunities
prdave73 : 10:54 pm : link : reply
Looked very good.
Cam Robinson would have been an instant improvement no knock
on Engram but with the addition of Rhett Ellison we could have gone with Adams and Lacosse we have enough WR's
and someone mentioned Whitworth . I would bet dollrs to donuts Eli would have lit up Dallas at the least hand 30
points on them with the way our defense is .
Now were gonna run the Defense into the ground the sledding is much tougher this year .
We could've done exactly what the Chargers did - drafted Forrest Lamp and Dan Feeney. We passed on Ramczyk and Cam Robinson (starting at LT for the Jags and looking good.)
Instead of Dalvin we could've taken Taylor Moton, Dion Dawkins, Ethan Pocic, Pat Elflein or Feeney.
How about Eli Apple over Tunsil?
Our OLine could be:
Tunsil - Pugh - Richburg - Lamp - Flowers
Subtract Engram and Apple.
I'm OK with that. Bigs over littles. Would also give us leverage with Pugh and Richburg.
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And that's just the recent drafts. They've had their chances in free agency too. And trades. Lots of team building options and ways to allocate $$$.
I do want to see a larger body of work. Between the Giants having a few quick 3 and outs early and Dak having his way with us and the D never being able to get off the field on third down... the offense really didn't get a lot of snaps last night.
I'm still on Glenn over Wilson. This has been a problem for a while and we just have done nothing about it.
You would have had massive beef on the right side of the line and a veteran LT to protect Eli's blind side.
I'm going to get off my Lamp soap box but when our resident draft guru is flat out drooling over the guy... calling him the best in the draft.... and he's there for the taking... that's a little annoying.
Again... oh well.
We essentially could have still had our entire offseason minus Jerry and signed him under the cap.
Engram seems like a nice player but he loses value if the offense can't or won't use him to threaten defenses down the middle of the field.
Whitworth/Reiff/Leary would've been nice options in FA but they were expensive. Definitely don't get Marshall and maybe lose some core guys in the future due to the cap.
Unfortunately OL seems to be a blind spot for Reese. The dominant OL from 07 was essentially built by Accorsi. That unit got old a little too fast and Reese didn't have anything in the pipeline. Beatty was a developmental guy who got hurt when he seemed to be coming into his own. Baas didn't live up to expectations. All the mid to late round picks were busts. Schwartz was a failed FA. Sintim over Unger. Wilson over Glenn. Here we are.
Maybe Reese et al need a lesson in Giant history to improve Giant drafting and performance. Reese certainly needs something.
It would be tough to make it work. Not just Odell -- Collins, Pugh, Richberg...maybe DRC. Most likely you're probably put to a decision between keeping a good aging vet you just signed (Whitworth) or overpaying for Richberg or Pugh. Awkward spot.
It would be nice to have Whitworth and Cam Robinson right now though. I think we'd feel a hell of a lot better about the offense.
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Somebody like Whitworth is only getting 15 million guaranteed. You pay him 12 this year and your pretty much done. You can restructure him down in year 3. That's not going to hurt you in in negotiations with Odell and the rest next year at all IMO.
It would be tough to make it work. Not just Odell -- Collins, Pugh, Richberg...maybe DRC. Most likely you're probably put to a decision between keeping a good aging vet you just signed (Whitworth) or overpaying for Richberg or Pugh. Awkward spot.
It would be nice to have Whitworth and Cam Robinson right now though. I think we'd feel a hell of a lot better about the offense.
I agree with what your saying but it's going to be tough either way signing all the players you mentioned. We are currently 10 million under the cap. Forget Jerry and we could have pretty much spent the guaranteed portion of Whitworth's contract this year alone. If it was an issue later we could have asked for a restructure or simply cut him. Changes nothing.
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In comment 13595180 ZGiants98 said:
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Somebody like Whitworth is only getting 15 million guaranteed. You pay him 12 this year and your pretty much done. You can restructure him down in year 3. That's not going to hurt you in in negotiations with Odell and the rest next year at all IMO.
It would be tough to make it work. Not just Odell -- Collins, Pugh, Richberg...maybe DRC. Most likely you're probably put to a decision between keeping a good aging vet you just signed (Whitworth) or overpaying for Richberg or Pugh. Awkward spot.
It would be nice to have Whitworth and Cam Robinson right now though. I think we'd feel a hell of a lot better about the offense.
I agree with what your saying but it's going to be tough either way signing all the players you mentioned. We are currently 10 million under the cap. Forget Jerry and we could have pretty much spent the guaranteed portion of Whitworth's contract this year alone. If it was an issue later we could have asked for a restructure or simply cut him. Changes nothing.
Whitworth turns 36 in December and signed a 3 year 36 million dollar contract. You don't want to restructure a guy at that age. Cut him after one year and you're getting the dead money hit plus a hole in the starting lineup.
My issue is there simply hasn't been a commitment to solidifying the OL. It's been a series of half measures. The OL has been an issue for a while now. They addressed it with Flowers, Pugh, and Richberg. That hasn't been good enough obviously. Whitworth and Robinson would've provided the pieces to field a complete, talented, unit in the short term. I think Robinson alone would make the OL better.
I really hope Engram is a stud because right now that pick is somewhat of a head scratcher. Tye was serviceable. They got Lacosse back. Adams flashed. They paid for Ellison.
Yep. Everyone knew it was the issue and they addressed everything but. Very frustrating.
A new OL coach, for starters.
But what they could've done is trade down with the Niners, who began the day with the 34th pick and offered it along with the 111th and 143rd picks for the Giants 1st round pick. They then could've selected Robinson with the 34th pick and either Dion Dawkins or Taylor Moton with the 55th pick. After that the Giants could've packaged some combination of their 87th, 111th, 140th, and 143rd picks to add more speed to the offense (either at WR, TE, or RB) and/or a DT.
But hindsight is 20/20. And by the end of the year we could be talking about what a steal it was to get Engram with the 23rd pick and Tomlinson with the 55th.
he was not a bad kid.....and off the chart LT talent.
mive flowers to Right
OL fixed imo
i also do not believe we lost to Dallas due to OL
But let's understand that all the OT in the draft had question marks. The big question for me is the RG spot. Fluker can't be worse than Jerry. I am pretty sure Jones is better. We need to be able to run the ball and it starts at RG. Feeney or Lamp would have been nice additions even Ron Leary. Zeitler got a huge contact but look how bad Cincy was without him last week.
starting LT*
A new OL coach, for starters.
This. Somebody forgot to tell the Vikes that there were such a dearth of options available to re-tool an OL.
There is a LOT of middle ground between spending $15m/year on OL free agents and trotting out Bobby Hart and John Jerry as starters.
A new OL coach, for starters.
It's funny how the Vikings and Broncos recognized an enrromous problem and addressed it. Giants have the same problem and didn't absolutely nothing to fix it. Why expect it to get better?
I'm a big Jerry Reese fan but this was a colossal mistake. Sign Whitworth and figure out the money- only 15 mill guaranteed. I'm not really worried about not being able to overpay Pugh or Richburg. Whitworth is a top level Left Tackle. Pugh and Richburg are average players at best.
But let's understand that all the OT in the draft had question marks. The big question for me is the RG spot. Fluker can't be worse than Jerry. I am pretty sure Jones is better. We need to be able to run the ball and it starts at RG. Feeney or Lamp would have been nice additions even Ron Leary. Zeitler got a huge contact but look how bad Cincy was without him last week.
Well all of the draftniks said it was a weak OL class but early returns are showing they were epically wrong. Right now it has to be one of the best value classes considering where these guys were picked.
There's nothing they can do besides get fleeced in a trade and probably hurt their cap situation. It's that or give the backups a shot.
As someone said, they could have done the trade with the 49ers, and gotten 34, 111, and 143. But most people here thought Reese made the right call in not doing so. There was apparently a lot of interest to trade up to get Engram. Atlanta supposedly wanted him very badly.
Drafting Lamp or C. Robinson was more realistic, and then relying on Adams, Ellison, and LaCosse.
Might have also tried G. Robinson, although we did sign Fluker.
Whitworth is another possibility. But we had just spent $200M in FA the year before, so I'm not sure how realistic that would have been.
We accept what we have right now. Bench Jerry for Jones. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Wheeler at some point this season. He lacks mass, but has the feet to play tackle.