for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

What COULD the Giants have done to improve the OL....

lawguy9801 : 9/11/2017 10:45 pm
....in the offseason?

I was extremely busy at work basically from January to June and did not have the time to closely follow free agency and the draft.

Who were the good OL available high in the draft that we passed up?

Who were the available FA lineman that we didn't sign and fit under the salary cap?

In order to determine whether Reese should be blamed for not upgrading the line (as many are doing on BBI), there should be a comprehensive review of what could have been done, who he drafted or signed instead, and whether the team as a whole would have been better off.
Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
.  
Danny Kanell : 9/11/2017 10:47 pm : link
There wasn't much they could have done. The value wasn't there early in the draft and the available free agents all had warts and got massively overpaid.
.  
ZGiants98 : 9/11/2017 10:49 pm : link
We could have drafted Forest Lamp and plugged him in at RG (spare me that he tore an ACL with another team/no guarantees that happens with us) and signed Whitworth to play LT (pushing Flowers to RT.)
Hire a new OC  
Rflairr : 9/11/2017 10:51 pm : link
.
drafted Cam Robinson?  
prdave73 : 9/11/2017 10:54 pm : link
Looked very good.
RE: drafted Cam Robinson?  
ZGiants98 : 9/11/2017 11:03 pm : link
In comment 13595110 prdave73 said:
Quote:
Looked very good.


There was a lot of ways we could of gone. Robinson... Ramcyk... both could have probably at least been an upgrade at guard. Dave TE had Lamp as the best lineman in the draft (a Zack Martin clone) and said we should RUN to the podium if he was there. I'm still pissed we didn't. I like Engram but Adams and LaCosse have looked great and maybe you take somebody like Jake Butt in the 4th to groom. Upgrading the line should have been priority one IMO.
RE: RE: drafted Cam Robinson?  
lawguy9801 : 9/11/2017 11:06 pm : link
In comment 13595121 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13595110 prdave73 said:


Quote:


Looked very good.



There was a lot of ways we could of gone. Robinson... Ramcyk... both could have probably at least been an upgrade at guard. Dave TE had Lamp as the best lineman in the draft (a Zack Martin clone) and said we should RUN to the podium if he was there. I'm still pissed we didn't. I like Engram but Adams and LaCosse have looked great and maybe you take somebody like Jake Butt in the 4th to groom. Upgrading the line should have been priority one IMO.


When were all these guys taken? Would they have been reaches for our Engram pick?
Could have signed whitworth or Riley Rieff  
djm : 9/11/2017 11:07 pm : link
Instead of Marshall. Rieff got a big long deal while whitworth got a big short deal.

A draft pick is a tougher sell as the Giants first two picks from this class not only filled needs they look good as well. Plus the rookie OL around the NFL this year don't look that great, at least without looking too deeply into it. I know ramzyk had his problems tonight.

I was advocating for Riley all off season. Played a good RT for the lions and wasn't god awful at LT for them when he played. Tonight he looked ok at LT for the Vikings. His versatility would have helped here. But again, he was signed for a pretty penny.





RE: Could have signed whitworth or Riley Rieff  
NoGainDayne : 9/11/2017 11:14 pm : link
In comment 13595126 djm said:
Quote:
Instead of Marshall. Rieff got a big long deal while whitworth got a big short deal.

A draft pick is a tougher sell as the Giants first two picks from this class not only filled needs they look good as well. Plus the rookie OL around the NFL this year don't look that great, at least without looking too deeply into it. I know ramzyk had his problems tonight.

I was advocating for Riley all off season. Played a good RT for the lions and wasn't god awful at LT for them when he played. Tonight he looked ok at LT for the Vikings. His versatility would have helped here. But again, he was signed for a pretty penny.






This. Marshall doesn't help us with no protection. Lewis and King both showed promise. Eli has shown he can throw to lesser receivers with time as well. They made the "sexy" move. It seemed like Whitworth was interested too they just didn't seem to want to pay the price and have this stubborn Flowers at LT thing. I'd much rather see Flowers and Hart compete for RT, I think a lot of people would.
RE: RE: RE: drafted Cam Robinson?  
ZGiants98 : 9/11/2017 11:14 pm : link
In comment 13595124 lawguy9801 said:
Quote:
In comment 13595121 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


In comment 13595110 prdave73 said:


Quote:


Looked very good.



There was a lot of ways we could of gone. Robinson... Ramcyk... both could have probably at least been an upgrade at guard. Dave TE had Lamp as the best lineman in the draft (a Zack Martin clone) and said we should RUN to the podium if he was there. I'm still pissed we didn't. I like Engram but Adams and LaCosse have looked great and maybe you take somebody like Jake Butt in the 4th to groom. Upgrading the line should have been priority one IMO.



When were all these guys taken? Would they have been reaches for our Engram pick?


No. All were supposed to go around where we picked. My biggest beef is Lamp. Guy played LT all throughout college but "fell" because he might have to settle at guard. Almost everyone agreed taking that out of it he was the best lineman in the draft pound for pound. Well guess what? I would loved a Zack Martin clone at RG right about now. He did tear his ACL in a preseason game but there is no chance we know if that happens with us. Actually, I'd say chances are greater it doesn't.
There Were No No Brainers  
Samiam : 9/11/2017 11:20 pm : link
I think everyone of the available high picks had question marks including serious ones. Someone wrote we should have taken Lamp because he's like Zack Martin. Didn't Lamp get hurt in camp and out for the season.
The
In terms of free agents, Riley's contract was comparable to the 3 big contracts we gave last year and isn't close to our signings. He's better than what we have but not a difference maker. Whitsworth would have been a major upgrade but he's 35 & signed a 3 year deal. Thats tough to match & word was he was staying in Cinc but for the 3rd year.

I was expecting more from Fluker. Still, as disappointed as I am, it's still all about the options that were available & it's not like there were obvious missed opportunities
Look for some trades  
Since1965 : 9/11/2017 11:25 pm : link
With SF and Cleveland going nowhere, Reese needs to see if they can pry Staley and/or Thomas for something reasonable. The OL sucks just as it did last year. Manning rarely had time to throw downfield (what is the use of having receivers running mid to deep routes - he doesn't have the time to throw to them). The line gets pushed all over the place on runs, and the few holes that develop are small and they close quickly. Jerry is a sub. Flowers is a guard. Hart probably is a guard two. It's just sickening to watch.
With the edition of  
Bluesbreaker : 9/11/2017 11:30 pm : link
drafted Cam Robinson?
prdave73 : 10:54 pm : link : reply
Looked very good.

Cam Robinson would have been an instant improvement no knock
on Engram but with the addition of Rhett Ellison we could have gone with Adams and Lacosse we have enough WR's
and someone mentioned Whitworth . I would bet dollrs to donuts Eli would have lit up Dallas at the least hand 30
points on them with the way our defense is .
Now were gonna run the Defense into the ground the sledding is much tougher this year .
Go back two years  
FranknWeezer : 9/11/2017 11:37 pm : link
Tunsil in lieu of Apple. That would have been a game changer for this OL.
Bigs vs. littles  
BigBlueWhale : 9/11/2017 11:38 pm : link
The shrugging "nothing we could do" crowd:

We could've done exactly what the Chargers did - drafted Forrest Lamp and Dan Feeney. We passed on Ramczyk and Cam Robinson (starting at LT for the Jags and looking good.)

Instead of Dalvin we could've taken Taylor Moton, Dion Dawkins, Ethan Pocic, Pat Elflein or Feeney.

How about Eli Apple over Tunsil?

Our OLine could be:

Tunsil - Pugh - Richburg - Lamp - Flowers

Subtract Engram and Apple.

I'm OK with that. Bigs over littles. Would also give us leverage with Pugh and Richburg.

-------------------

And that's just the recent drafts. They've had their chances in free agency too. And trades. Lots of team building options and ways to allocate $$$.
Yeah. Robinson and Whitworth at the tackles  
ZGiants98 : 9/11/2017 11:38 pm : link
And maybe Flowers to RG would have seemed to have improved our line by a million. Oh well. Nothing we can do about it now.

I do want to see a larger body of work. Between the Giants having a few quick 3 and outs early and Dak having his way with us and the D never being able to get off the field on third down... the offense really didn't get a lot of snaps last night.
RE: Go back two years  
NoGainDayne : 9/11/2017 11:40 pm : link
In comment 13595159 FranknWeezer said:
Quote:
Tunsil in lieu of Apple. That would have been a game changer for this OL.


I'm still on Glenn over Wilson. This has been a problem for a while and we just have done nothing about it.
Not resign John Jerry  
blueblood : 9/11/2017 11:42 pm : link
move Flowers to Right Tackle.. Put Fluker at RG. Spend money on a veteran Left Tackle.

You would have had massive beef on the right side of the line and a veteran LT to protect Eli's blind side.

Lamp tore his ACL  
ZGiants98 : 9/11/2017 11:43 pm : link
On a pull play where "he went down in a lot of traffic". How in the world do we know that happens with us? Anyone can tear an ACL and it's almost completely up to the randomness of the play/situation.

I'm going to get off my Lamp soap box but when our resident draft guru is flat out drooling over the guy... calling him the best in the draft.... and he's there for the taking... that's a little annoying.

Again... oh well.
I choked on the Apple pick  
Paulie Walnuts : 9/11/2017 11:45 pm : link
should have been an OL there
Also Ron Leary at RG  
Giantfan in skinland : 9/11/2017 11:48 pm : link
Seems to be paying dividends for the Broncos O-Line so far.
Ramcyk(?) looked pretty good this evening  
NYRiese : 9/11/2017 11:51 pm : link
...
People forget we are 10 million under the cap right now  
ZGiants98 : 9/11/2017 11:51 pm : link
Whitworth got 3/36 (15 guaranteed)

We essentially could have still had our entire offseason minus Jerry and signed him under the cap.
Wanted Cam Robinson  
WillVAB : 9/11/2017 11:53 pm : link
Thought he was the best run blocking tackle in the draft and def would've been an upgrade over Hart. Looks like the real deal in JAX.

Engram seems like a nice player but he loses value if the offense can't or won't use him to threaten defenses down the middle of the field.

Whitworth/Reiff/Leary would've been nice options in FA but they were expensive. Definitely don't get Marshall and maybe lose some core guys in the future due to the cap.

Unfortunately OL seems to be a blind spot for Reese. The dominant OL from 07 was essentially built by Accorsi. That unit got old a little too fast and Reese didn't have anything in the pipeline. Beatty was a developmental guy who got hurt when he seemed to be coming into his own. Baas didn't live up to expectations. All the mid to late round picks were busts. Schwartz was a failed FA. Sintim over Unger. Wilson over Glenn. Here we are.
Not buying the salary part.  
ZGiants98 : 9/12/2017 12:00 am : link
Somebody like Whitworth is only getting 15 million guaranteed. You pay him 12 this year and your pretty much done. You can restructure him down in year 3. That's not going to hurt you in in negotiations with Odell and the rest next year at all IMO.
Giants didn't become competitive again in the 1980's until George  
plato : 9/12/2017 12:08 am : link
Young arrived in ? 1979 and after drafting Phil Simms (who?) and LT, he began the era of drafting big offensive lineman, (dancing elephants). He believed greatly in big strong o lineman. And we went on to greatness.

Maybe Reese et al need a lesson in Giant history to improve Giant drafting and performance. Reese certainly needs something.
Tunsil  
Peppers : 9/12/2017 12:10 am : link
One of the biggest mistakes we made was passing on him for Eli Apple.
RE: Not buying the salary part.  
WillVAB : 9/12/2017 12:11 am : link
In comment 13595180 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
Somebody like Whitworth is only getting 15 million guaranteed. You pay him 12 this year and your pretty much done. You can restructure him down in year 3. That's not going to hurt you in in negotiations with Odell and the rest next year at all IMO.


It would be tough to make it work. Not just Odell -- Collins, Pugh, Richberg...maybe DRC. Most likely you're probably put to a decision between keeping a good aging vet you just signed (Whitworth) or overpaying for Richberg or Pugh. Awkward spot.

It would be nice to have Whitworth and Cam Robinson right now though. I think we'd feel a hell of a lot better about the offense.
RE: RE: Not buying the salary part.  
ZGiants98 : 9/12/2017 12:17 am : link
In comment 13595190 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 13595180 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


Somebody like Whitworth is only getting 15 million guaranteed. You pay him 12 this year and your pretty much done. You can restructure him down in year 3. That's not going to hurt you in in negotiations with Odell and the rest next year at all IMO.



It would be tough to make it work. Not just Odell -- Collins, Pugh, Richberg...maybe DRC. Most likely you're probably put to a decision between keeping a good aging vet you just signed (Whitworth) or overpaying for Richberg or Pugh. Awkward spot.

It would be nice to have Whitworth and Cam Robinson right now though. I think we'd feel a hell of a lot better about the offense.


I agree with what your saying but it's going to be tough either way signing all the players you mentioned. We are currently 10 million under the cap. Forget Jerry and we could have pretty much spent the guaranteed portion of Whitworth's contract this year alone. If it was an issue later we could have asked for a restructure or simply cut him. Changes nothing.
RE: RE: RE: Not buying the salary part.  
WillVAB : 9/12/2017 12:37 am : link
In comment 13595191 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13595190 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 13595180 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


Somebody like Whitworth is only getting 15 million guaranteed. You pay him 12 this year and your pretty much done. You can restructure him down in year 3. That's not going to hurt you in in negotiations with Odell and the rest next year at all IMO.



It would be tough to make it work. Not just Odell -- Collins, Pugh, Richberg...maybe DRC. Most likely you're probably put to a decision between keeping a good aging vet you just signed (Whitworth) or overpaying for Richberg or Pugh. Awkward spot.

It would be nice to have Whitworth and Cam Robinson right now though. I think we'd feel a hell of a lot better about the offense.



I agree with what your saying but it's going to be tough either way signing all the players you mentioned. We are currently 10 million under the cap. Forget Jerry and we could have pretty much spent the guaranteed portion of Whitworth's contract this year alone. If it was an issue later we could have asked for a restructure or simply cut him. Changes nothing.


Whitworth turns 36 in December and signed a 3 year 36 million dollar contract. You don't want to restructure a guy at that age. Cut him after one year and you're getting the dead money hit plus a hole in the starting lineup.

My issue is there simply hasn't been a commitment to solidifying the OL. It's been a series of half measures. The OL has been an issue for a while now. They addressed it with Flowers, Pugh, and Richberg. That hasn't been good enough obviously. Whitworth and Robinson would've provided the pieces to field a complete, talented, unit in the short term. I think Robinson alone would make the OL better.

I really hope Engram is a stud because right now that pick is somewhat of a head scratcher. Tye was serviceable. They got Lacosse back. Adams flashed. They paid for Ellison.
I agree with you 100% and that's my issue also  
ZGiants98 : 9/12/2017 12:42 am : link
I get tired of hearing we've spent high picks on o lineman and made it a priority. Have we? My issue is this past offseason right now. The line wasn't good last year and we are running out of time. Eli is 36. I certainly would have made fixing the line a massive priority this season.
RE: I agree with you 100% and that's my issue also  
WillVAB : 9/12/2017 12:58 am : link
In comment 13595200 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
I get tired of hearing we've spent high picks on o lineman and made it a priority. Have we? My issue is this past offseason right now. The line wasn't good last year and we are running out of time. Eli is 36. I certainly would have made fixing the line a massive priority this season.


Yep. Everyone knew it was the issue and they addressed everything but. Very frustrating.
The Giants could of still got Evan Ingram  
prdave73 : 9/12/2017 1:06 am : link
and got Cam Robinson in the 2nd rd! think about it. They could of traded to the 2nd spot of the 2nd rd and taken him. The Giants did it with Landon Collins why not for Cam?? This is what confuses me about Reese..
The Vikings have 5 new starters on the line  
SHO'NUFF : 9/12/2017 1:10 am : link
and they looked stout.

A new OL coach, for starters.
RE: The Giants could of still got Evan Ingram  
Milton : 9/12/2017 3:13 am : link
In comment 13595213 prdave73 said:
Quote:
and got Cam Robinson in the 2nd rd! think about it. They could of traded to the 2nd spot of the 2nd rd and taken him. The Giants did it with Landon Collins why not for Cam?? This is what confuses me about Reese..
The Giants were much closer to the top of round 2 when they traded the 40th pick (plus 4th and 7th rounders) to move up to the 33rd pick and select Collins. To move up to the 34th spot (where Robinson was selected) from the 55th spot (their 2nd round pick) would've cost them their 3rd round pick as well plus a day two pick in 2018 (going by the trade value chart). So that wasn't gonna happen.

But what they could've done is trade down with the Niners, who began the day with the 34th pick and offered it along with the 111th and 143rd picks for the Giants 1st round pick. They then could've selected Robinson with the 34th pick and either Dion Dawkins or Taylor Moton with the 55th pick. After that the Giants could've packaged some combination of their 87th, 111th, 140th, and 143rd picks to add more speed to the offense (either at WR, TE, or RB) and/or a DT.

But hindsight is 20/20. And by the end of the year we could be talking about what a steal it was to get Engram with the 23rd pick and Tomlinson with the 55th.
bottom line  
gmenatlarge : 9/12/2017 6:43 am : link
who the fuck cares???? what are they going to do now is all that matters!!!
i would have drafted Tunsil.....instead of Eli Apple  
George from PA : 9/12/2017 7:15 am : link
when he dropped even with that stupid mask....
he was not a bad kid.....and off the chart LT talent.

mive flowers to Right

OL fixed imo


i also do not believe we lost to Dallas due to OL
Andrew Whitworth is getting rave reviews  
barens : 9/12/2017 7:33 am : link
In LA after his first game..
Excellent thread  
Rjanyg : 9/12/2017 7:38 am : link
I hate to say it but Bolles looked pretty good last night. He wasn't perfect but he is gonna be a good one. Ramchyk looked pretty good as well.

But let's understand that all the OT in the draft had question marks. The big question for me is the RG spot. Fluker can't be worse than Jerry. I am pretty sure Jones is better. We need to be able to run the ball and it starts at RG. Feeney or Lamp would have been nice additions even Ron Leary. Zeitler got a huge contact but look how bad Cincy was without him last week.

Unfortunately we have a FO that seems to think  
widmerseyebrow : 9/12/2017 8:05 am : link
That hedging your bets is an admission of failure. It seems to me there is an agenda to not create competition at OL spots occupied by draft picks.
What kills me is that bringing in an OT  
widmerseyebrow : 9/12/2017 8:11 am : link
Could have been done with very little downside. At worst we're paying three starting caliber tackles, but one of those tackles is on a 7th round contract-back up money. And let's not pretend Hart would have beaten out any of the aforementioned possibilities.
Lions got Greg Robinson  
CromartiesKid21 : 9/12/2017 8:16 am : link
for peanuts and he is now their starting OF. Granted he has been an epic bust but that toxic Jeff Fisher environment I'm sure had to do a lot with it.
RE: Lions got Greg Robinson  
CromartiesKid21 : 9/12/2017 8:20 am : link
In comment 13595295 CromartiesKid21 said:
Quote:
for peanuts and he is now their starting OF. Granted he has been an epic bust but that toxic Jeff Fisher environment I'm sure had to do a lot with it.

starting LT*
RE: The Vikings have 5 new starters on the line  
bigbluehoya : 9/12/2017 8:20 am : link
In comment 13595214 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
and they looked stout.

A new OL coach, for starters.


This. Somebody forgot to tell the Vikes that there were such a dearth of options available to re-tool an OL.

There is a LOT of middle ground between spending $15m/year on OL free agents and trotting out Bobby Hart and John Jerry as starters.
RE: The Vikings have 5 new starters on the line  
TyreeHelmet : 9/12/2017 8:22 am : link
In comment 13595214 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
and they looked stout.

A new OL coach, for starters.


It's funny how the Vikings and Broncos recognized an enrromous problem and addressed it. Giants have the same problem and didn't absolutely nothing to fix it. Why expect it to get better?

I'm a big Jerry Reese fan but this was a colossal mistake. Sign Whitworth and figure out the money- only 15 mill guaranteed. I'm not really worried about not being able to overpay Pugh or Richburg. Whitworth is a top level Left Tackle. Pugh and Richburg are average players at best.
RE: Excellent thread  
WillVAB : 9/12/2017 8:22 am : link
In comment 13595268 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
I hate to say it but Bolles looked pretty good last night. He wasn't perfect but he is gonna be a good one. Ramchyk looked pretty good as well.

But let's understand that all the OT in the draft had question marks. The big question for me is the RG spot. Fluker can't be worse than Jerry. I am pretty sure Jones is better. We need to be able to run the ball and it starts at RG. Feeney or Lamp would have been nice additions even Ron Leary. Zeitler got a huge contact but look how bad Cincy was without him last week.


Well all of the draftniks said it was a weak OL class but early returns are showing they were epically wrong. Right now it has to be one of the best value classes considering where these guys were picked.
RE: bottom line  
WillVAB : 9/12/2017 8:25 am : link
In comment 13595246 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
who the fuck cares???? what are they going to do now is all that matters!!!


There's nothing they can do besides get fleeced in a trade and probably hurt their cap situation. It's that or give the backups a shot.
Lots  
AcidTest : 9/12/2017 8:29 am : link
of options:

As someone said, they could have done the trade with the 49ers, and gotten 34, 111, and 143. But most people here thought Reese made the right call in not doing so. There was apparently a lot of interest to trade up to get Engram. Atlanta supposedly wanted him very badly.

Drafting Lamp or C. Robinson was more realistic, and then relying on Adams, Ellison, and LaCosse.

Might have also tried G. Robinson, although we did sign Fluker.

Whitworth is another possibility. But we had just spent $200M in FA the year before, so I'm not sure how realistic that would have been.

We accept what we have right now. Bench Jerry for Jones. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Wheeler at some point this season. He lacks mass, but has the feet to play tackle.
what could have they done?  
I Love Clams Casino : 9/12/2017 8:31 am : link
the opposite
Tunsil is the one  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 9/12/2017 8:32 am : link
He fell right into his lap.
I  
AcidTest : 9/12/2017 8:33 am : link
will also never criticize Reese for not taking Tunsil. Not after Will Hill. He needed a clean pick that high in the draft. I admit I didn't want Apple, that I wanted Reese trade down. But there were probably few partners that year willing to trade up into our spot, at least for a decent return. Reese also clearly wanted Conklin.
Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
Back to the Corner