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Giants' offensive line crisis | How did they get here?

Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/12/2017 8:14 am
James Kratch article...
8 thoughts on Giants' offensive line crisis | How did they get here? - ( New Window )
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RE: What is really disconcerting is that players like...  
BillKo : 9/12/2017 9:36 am : link
In comment 13595452 M.S. said:
Quote:

...Ereck Flowers and John Jerry make the same mistakes over and over again.

And we saw more of the same on Sunday Night.

In the case of Ereck Flowers, it's all about defensive ends getting him to put too much weight on his outside leg, and then he is ultra vulnerable to an inside rip job straight to the QB.

As for John Jerry, the guy just can't figure out that
when the defensive tackle rubs into him and then into Hart, he's got to be mindful of a LB or DE looping into his vacated hole.

Same thing all the time.

Big trouble for Big Blue.


MS - I agree...I wonder about Jerry's football acumen. That seems to be a simple correction, but he has struggled with it since he's been a Giant.
My problem with the article...  
Dan in the Springs : 9/12/2017 9:37 am : link
is that it completely skims over the free agency period last year. So they didn't count on Flowers to play his rookie season at LT, he had to, and they got by. His play was the low point on that line, but he was a rookie and had an ankle injury to boot.

But there were a few LT available in FA after that season that were had for reasonable dollars. While a few were linked to the Giants, reports indicated that the Giants were making it clear to them that they were looking for a RT, that LT was covered (by Flowers).

They should have been bringing in competition for Flowers that year. If he won the job, great. If not, he could continue to develop behind a pro, or compete for a RT spot.

I also think the idea of drafting guys (Pugh, Biz) who have played only on the left side their entire college career, then forcing them to practice/play exclusively on the right side, and finally evaluating their tackle play at that unnatural position is a mistake.

Most importantly though, I think they need to spend all of their practice time of group drills - no individual work. Have all their individual work done outside of the CBA-limited practice time. Cohesion requires repetition, and they obviously aren't getting enough of it. Let them work on their individual stuff outside of practice.
The staff & front office is quickly losing  
area junc : 9/12/2017 9:37 am : link
the benefit of the doubt on players.

Jerry should've been let go. Jones has demonstrated he deserves to play. Flowers should've been moved inside to G, like other teams do when they are over their head at T. And he just might be a dominant G. Pugh is the best LT on the team.

The line should've been:

Pugh - Jones - Richburg - Flowers - new RT. Yes, Riley Reiff, draft pick - but prioritized in UFA/draft.

------------

Instead, we stick with status quo as we've largely done for years. Please don't give me the "what could we have done?" crap.
RE: My problem with the article...  
jcn56 : 9/12/2017 9:41 am : link
In comment 13595458 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
is that it completely skims over the free agency period last year. So they didn't count on Flowers to play his rookie season at LT, he had to, and they got by. His play was the low point on that line, but he was a rookie and had an ankle injury to boot.

But there were a few LT available in FA after that season that were had for reasonable dollars. While a few were linked to the Giants, reports indicated that the Giants were making it clear to them that they were looking for a RT, that LT was covered (by Flowers).

They should have been bringing in competition for Flowers that year. If he won the job, great. If not, he could continue to develop behind a pro, or compete for a RT spot.

I also think the idea of drafting guys (Pugh, Biz) who have played only on the left side their entire college career, then forcing them to practice/play exclusively on the right side, and finally evaluating their tackle play at that unnatural position is a mistake.

Most importantly though, I think they need to spend all of their practice time of group drills - no individual work. Have all their individual work done outside of the CBA-limited practice time. Cohesion requires repetition, and they obviously aren't getting enough of it. Let them work on their individual stuff outside of practice.


Beyond Whitworth, who was available at LT that was worthy of a starting spot? I don't think he skimmed over it too badly - what he mentioned was there were a lot of retreads (Khalil, doesn't mention Clady but that was implied).

OL play being what it is around the league means very few good LTs hit the market. The ones that do have question marks - in Whitworth's case, his age.

That's one of the reasons you don't see Staley or Thomas going anywhere. Everyone keeps insisting they could be had for a 2nd rounder - but if that's the case, given the dearth of good LT play, why hasn't someone (if not the Giants) made that trade yet? Answer - because neither the Niners nor Browns want to do it. Contenders or not, they still need a LT to protect their QBs, and trading a good one for a 2nd rounder is lunacy.
We see teams all the time scheme around their weaknesses  
Rflairr : 9/12/2017 9:42 am : link
I think we all took for granted Coughlin's role in game planning.
RE: My problem with the article...  
micky : 9/12/2017 9:44 am : link
In comment 13595458 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
is that it completely skims over the free agency period last year. So they didn't count on Flowers to play his rookie season at LT, he had to, and they got by. His play was the low point on that line, but he was a rookie and had an ankle injury to boot.

But there were a few LT available in FA after that season that were had for reasonable dollars. While a few were linked to the Giants, reports indicated that the Giants were making it clear to them that they were looking for a RT, that LT was covered (by Flowers).

They should have been bringing in competition for Flowers that year. If he won the job, great. If not, he could continue to develop behind a pro, or compete for a RT spot.

I also think the idea of drafting guys (Pugh, Biz) who have played only on the left side their entire college career, then forcing them to practice/play exclusively on the right side, and finally evaluating their tackle play at that unnatural position is a mistake.

Most importantly though, I think they need to spend all of their practice time of group drills - no individual work. Have all their individual work done outside of the CBA-limited practice time. Cohesion requires repetition, and they obviously aren't getting enough of it. Let them work on their individual stuff outside of practice.


Quote:
But there were a few LT available in FA after that season that were had for reasonable dollars. While a few were linked to the Giants, reports indicated that the Giants were making it clear to them that they were looking for a RT, that LT was covered (by Flowers).


that in itself was a mistake by the giants, putting it out there to potential free agents, that Flowers wasn't moving from lt.

it's always said, it's best to have competition at or for a position. it might've pushed Flowers, and been better for, to have someone come in and push, whether flowers or whomever on this ol, for their position. bad decision imo
You guys are also mixing up your seasons - Reese was amenable  
jcn56 : 9/12/2017 9:48 am : link
to moving Flowers from LT after '16 - as Kratch points out in the article.

A big part of the problem has been poor FA classes for two years running. Mediocre guys getting top dollar in FA. Even though I'm not crazy about our current situation, if you can't find at least a good player (only 2 of our guys are worse than mediocre, believe it or not), what's the point in paying them?
http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2017/01/options_giants_could_pursue_to_replace_ereck_flo.html - ( New Window )
mediocre free agents if you presume only the tackle position  
idiotsavant : 9/12/2017 9:51 am : link
whereas if I remember that there have been some good guards and centers.
RE: mediocre free agents if you presume only the tackle position  
jcn56 : 9/12/2017 9:54 am : link
In comment 13595477 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
whereas if I remember that there have been some good guards and centers.


There were a handful in '15 and '16 - and the competition for them was intense.

Osemele - got LT money to play guard.

A lot of guys with question marks - Sitton, cut by the Packers with an injury history. Boone - signed by the Vikings and released. Older guys like Evan Mathis.

It's not to say that there weren't options - but in some cases, options that weren't much better than what we had, at a steep increase in price.
RE: RE: My problem with the article...  
Dan in the Springs : 9/12/2017 9:55 am : link
In comment 13595463 jcn56 said:
Quote:

Beyond Whitworth, who was available at LT that was worthy of a starting spot? I don't think he skimmed over it too badly - what he mentioned was there were a lot of retreads (Khalil, doesn't mention Clady but that was implied).


I'm talking about the year before - during the winter/spring of 2016, not this year.

There were a few LT that were had. The biggest catch ended up being Donald Penn. Here's an article on the interest they had in him:
[quote]Penn is as durable as they come. He has started all 16 games in each of the last eight seasons, dating back to 2008 with the Buccaneers. Despite his age, Penn would be a good fit for the Giants, who still have potentially two open spots to fill on their offensive line. However, like with Russell Okung, who recently visited, Penn would be asked to move to the right side as long as the Giants are as committed to Ereck Flowers as their left tackle as general manager Jerry Reese suggested they were.

So they let him go back to Oakland, who signed him for an unbelievably low amount (2 yrs, $11.9MM). Cap hit was just $6MM last year and would have been $7MM this year because he hit some incentives - like making the pro-bowl last year

This, to me, was clearly the biggest miss the Giants made. They let it be known that LT was not available. They could have signed a pro-bowler for the position last year for under $15MM on a two-year deal, which would have given Flowers competition, and given the length of the deal wouldn't have impeded the Giants from promoting or moving on from Penn had Flowers growth indicated he deserved it.

This oversight is never, ever mentioned by the press, but is clearly (to me) the biggest error made in trying to rebuild the line.
getting back to bias in a free society  
idiotsavant : 9/12/2017 9:58 am : link
often its not about what you hate or seek to exclude, its in truth really more from the pull side, what garners your attention.

then, of course, given limited time, that which garners less of your attention, gets excluded to a % de facto.

Joe considered hiring his brother in law Fred for his lawn mowing company, decent enough guy, no problems, but his friend Al also likes fishing, as Joe does, so that was more convenient.

Now, I love fishing, so that's cool, but you cannot claim that Joe used objective criteria regarding mowers.
alex mac 2014  
idiotsavant : 9/12/2017 9:59 am : link
.
RE: RE: RE: My problem with the article...  
jcn56 : 9/12/2017 10:01 am : link
In comment 13595482 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
In comment 13595463 jcn56 said:


Quote:



Beyond Whitworth, who was available at LT that was worthy of a starting spot? I don't think he skimmed over it too badly - what he mentioned was there were a lot of retreads (Khalil, doesn't mention Clady but that was implied).




I'm talking about the year before - during the winter/spring of 2016, not this year.

There were a few LT that were had. The biggest catch ended up being Donald Penn. Here's an article on the interest they had in him:
[quote]Penn is as durable as they come. He has started all 16 games in each of the last eight seasons, dating back to 2008 with the Buccaneers. Despite his age, Penn would be a good fit for the Giants, who still have potentially two open spots to fill on their offensive line. However, like with Russell Okung, who recently visited, Penn would be asked to move to the right side as long as the Giants are as committed to Ereck Flowers as their left tackle as general manager Jerry Reese suggested they were.

So they let him go back to Oakland, who signed him for an unbelievably low amount (2 yrs, $11.9MM). Cap hit was just $6MM last year and would have been $7MM this year because he hit some incentives - like making the pro-bowl last year

This, to me, was clearly the biggest miss the Giants made. They let it be known that LT was not available. They could have signed a pro-bowler for the position last year for under $15MM on a two-year deal, which would have given Flowers competition, and given the length of the deal wouldn't have impeded the Giants from promoting or moving on from Penn had Flowers growth indicated he deserved it.

This oversight is never, ever mentioned by the press, but is clearly (to me) the biggest error made in trying to rebuild the line.


Penn wasn't ever going anywhere - he saw other teams, got better offers, went back to Oakland for peanuts (and summarily, decided to hold out because he felt he was underpaid. Go figure).

Beating up the Giants for thinking that their freshman LT would take a step forward after a rocky rookie season, one where players typically struggle in their first campaign - isn't exactly fair.

When he stepped backwards in '16 - the Giants made it clear that they were open to moving him if an upgrade was available.

People don't like player development - and in this case, it certainly hasn't helped the Giants - but you have to give players more than one year to sink or swim if you're going to field a team that is under the cap. You can't go around replacing rookies after an inconsistent season.
Pugh at RT and Jones at LG  
ij_reilly : 9/12/2017 10:02 am : link
This is the only hope for immediate improvement that I can see.

And it could fail.

I never liked Hart at RT. His upside potential there was "average".
kevin zeitler larry warford  
idiotsavant : 9/12/2017 10:04 am : link
.
They needed to finish the job this off season  
WillVAB : 9/12/2017 10:05 am : link
Everyone and their brother knew the OL was the primary issue with the team. The questions with Jerry/Hart were obvious and Flowers was under fire.

The smart play would've been to sign Whitworth and draft Robinson or Ramcyk or one of the other 1-2 round guys that are playing good football. The scouts and draftniks were wrong about this OL class, at least so far.

Like I said in the other thread, Engram better be a star. If not, the pick doesn't really make sense. Tye was serviceable. They like Lacosse and we're getting him back from injury. Adams flashed. Then they paid for Ellison.

On it's face it appears Reese took the low budget, half-assed approach of trying to improve the blocking around the OL (Ellison, the FB, and Marshall) instead of infusing talent at the root problem.
It's ugly  
Bluesbreaker : 9/12/2017 10:06 am : link
Maybe we should have traded down in 2013 and taken the all pro center Travis Frederick instead of Pugh .
A guard at #19 Pugh is good but hindsight is blind .
With the edition of Ellison as nice a player that Engram is
we should never had gone with this same O-line Jerry was a
castoff decent backup . Bobby Hart young but he isn't there
yet I don't think anyone projected him as a starter .
Flowers has done better so far Richberg has not Pugh is the
best we have not sure if he will ever be all pro .
If they miss the playoffs because of an inept O-line someone
should be held accountable .
tj lang  
idiotsavant : 9/12/2017 10:06 am : link
.
RE: kevin zeitler larry warford  
jcn56 : 9/12/2017 10:10 am : link
In comment 13595499 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
.


Did you see Warford's game last night?

Good player - not great - got $34M/17M guaranteed over 4. And IIRC, he was the lowest paid out of that bunch of guards.
RE: We see teams all the time scheme around their weaknesses  
WillVAB : 9/12/2017 10:10 am : link
In comment 13595466 Rflairr said:
Quote:
I think we all took for granted Coughlin's role in game planning.


More and more of these Coughlin nostalgia posts are popping up. While I'm thankful for the trophies, he blew more than his fair share of games and had more than his fair share of second half of season collapses.
Very good article and take on the current predicament.....  
Simms11 : 9/12/2017 10:13 am : link
don't forget Reese also brought in guys like Baas and Schwartz to help the line. They were both considered some of the more competent linemen at the time, but both got injured and derailed their career here. Schwartz I'm really disappointed in the most, as he would have been a nice upgrade at RG. At least Baas helped the Giants win a Super Bowl.

I just do not see the aggressiveness or physicality with this line. Flowers is Tarzan, but plays like Jane and the remainder seemed to get pushed around too easily. there's just too much garbage in the pocket for Eli to do much of anything.

Only a few things that can be done this year, on the line, but I think they need to consider adjusting the scheme to help out the line.

Next year is a different story and I suspect there will be wholesale changes. I would pick up a top FA LT and let Wheeler compete there. I'd re-sign Pugh, possibly look to replace Richburg, move Hart inside to RG and let him compete with Fluker or another FA, lastly move Flowers to RT.
Enjoy the discussion...  
Dan in the Springs : 9/12/2017 10:15 am : link
In comment 13595489 jcn56 said:
Quote:

Penn wasn't ever going anywhere - he saw other teams, got better offers, went back to Oakland for peanuts (and summarily, decided to hold out because he felt he was underpaid. Go figure).


He was absolutely interested in looking elsewhere. The Giants offer wasn't good enough, because they over-estimated the talent at LT and were looking for a cheap vet to play RT. Big mistake.

Quote:
Beating up the Giants for thinking that their freshman LT would take a step forward after a rocky rookie season, one where players typically struggle in their first campaign - isn't exactly fair./quote]
Who's talking about beating up on the Giants for their mistakes? The article is what I'm commenting on. How can anyone write an article about how the Giants are in the position they're in at OL without mentioning how they could have signed a pro-bowl left tackle for under $10MM/yr just a year before? How they made the mistake of basically giving Flowers the LT role without competition following a shaky rookie campaign?

This isn't me making constant threads complaining about it, it's about setting the record straight when others bring it up. They want to say - there wasn't anything the Giants could do - but that's patently false. They could have done more but made an error in evaluating Flowers - not just once (draft) but twice (FA '16).

[quote]When he stepped backwards in '16 - the Giants made it clear that they were open to moving him if an upgrade was available.

True - this has been well documented.

Quote:
People don't like player development - and in this case, it certainly hasn't helped the Giants - but you have to give players more than one year to sink or swim if you're going to field a team that is under the cap. You can't go around replacing rookies after an inconsistent season.

You don't have to replace them entirely, but when you draft a guy with a plan to NOT put him immediately at LT, then play him there when it's clear he's not ready, and a possibility exists to sign a pro-bowl caliber offensive tackle at a discount, you sign the guy, if for no other reason than as competition or to be a backup/play RT. Didn't happen, but should have.
RE: Disagree - I think it's a great article  
WillVAB : 9/12/2017 10:21 am : link
In comment 13595332 jcn56 said:
Quote:
I think it sums up perfectly exactly what's happened the past 2-3 seasons to put us where we are.

If you want to go back to what is now ancient history by NFL roster transition standards, you can look at Snee's premature retirement, a healthy player in Baas being acquired in FA and becoming injury prone, failure to invest higher picks in the draft - but now you're going past what the root cause of today's situation is.

I agree with him that Whitworth was probably the best FA option for the Giants. Beyond that, a lot of washed up and injured players and a bunch of unknowns cashing in for big money. When it was initially announced I thought they made a good move not compromising future cap flexibility with that much guaranteed money going to a player over 35, but if what Kratch says is true and there's an out, then it seems like a mistake that the Giants didn't pursue him and try to push Flowers elsewhere.


When the title of the article includes, "how did they get here?" I think you need to look a little deeper than the last off-season or two. The Giants didn't go from the best OL to the worst over night. It required a confluence of events -- some bad luck (guys aging fast/injuries), bad FA picks (Baas, Schwartz, etc), bad draft picks early (Sintim over Unger, Wilson over Glenn, etc), bad draft picks mid/late, having to replace other players prematurely (Nicks/Plax/Smith), valuing play makers over trench guys, etc.

Personally I think Reese has a blind spot when it comes to OL. The great OL of Eli's early years was built by Accorsi and Reese simply hasn't been able to replicate that.
Won't stop  
Mr. Nickels : 9/12/2017 10:43 am : link
BBI from chirping that "In today's NFL 5th Cornerback and 6th Wide receiver is a huge need" just like the past few seasons.

It's like Jerry Reese has got you all brainwashed.
Yeah, good article  
BillT : 9/12/2017 10:44 am : link
The Whitworth for DRC thing isn't realistic or any real solution. Looking back 2/3 years is fair. It's a reasonable time frame for the NFL and how rosters are built.

Disagree that expecting players to get better is a bad plan though. Isn't that how we got good players like OBJ and Collins and Goodson and JPP and Shepard. It isn't some great stretch to think a guy like Flowers could get up to speed. Happens all the time all over the league.
And haven't Pugh and Richberg and even Jerry already shown they can play at least pretty well. Why should expecting them to do that again be a bad plan.
Dan - maybe another player, but Penn was pretty vocal  
jcn56 : 9/12/2017 10:48 am : link
about not leaving Oakland. He says as much in this article - and he received better offers (can't remember from whom, but Pittsburgh rings a bell for some reason).

Penn supposedly had a wife or girlfriend involved in reality TV in LA and was a reason why he wanted to stay put.
http://www.ibabuzz.com/oaklandraiders/2016/03/08/raiders-penn-plan-raider-trying-see-feeling-mutual/ - ( New Window )
I don't think any of us are going to change each others minds  
Reb8thVA : 9/12/2017 11:12 am : link
on this topic. The battle lines have certainly been drawn for the last couple of years. I don't think you can accurately say Reese has ignored the OL because the evidence suggests otherwise. However, I think it is fair to question the organization's current ability to evaluate OL talent and to question where the OL ranks in terms of his priorities.

Under George Young, the Giants were not afraid to cluster draft OL with top picks yet Reese is reluctant to do that but not for other positions.

In 2008, Reese uses a first and a second round pick on DBs (kenny Phillips and Terrell Thomas).
In 2009, he uses a first and a third on WRs (nicks and Barden)
In 2010 he uses a first and second on the DL (JPP and Linval)He also uses a sixth on another DE Adrian Tracy

In comparisson:

In 2012, Reese uses a fourth and a sixth on OTs (McCants and Mosely) Neither of who ever did anything for the team.
In 2013, he uses a first and a seventh on the OL (Pugh and Herman) Herman never materializes.
In 2014, he uses a second on Richburg. No other OL are selected
In 2015, he uses a first and a seventh on OL (Flowers and Hart)
In 2016 and 2017 no OL are selected.

On top of this we have a rotating carousel at the DT position. We go from Linval to Hankins to Tomlinson. Three high picks that offered opportunities to improve the OL.

The one thing I never could fully grasp is that we will invest 10s of millions in the DL because of the importance of a pass rush and sacking the QB. Wouldn't it stand to reason, that it is equally important to protect your own QB?
RE: RE: RE: My problem with the article...  
James Kratch : 9/12/2017 11:16 am : link
In comment 13595482 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
In comment 13595463 jcn56 said:


Quote:



Beyond Whitworth, who was available at LT that was worthy of a starting spot? I don't think he skimmed over it too badly - what he mentioned was there were a lot of retreads (Khalil, doesn't mention Clady but that was implied).




I'm talking about the year before - during the winter/spring of 2016, not this year.

There were a few LT that were had. The biggest catch ended up being Donald Penn. Here's an article on the interest they had in him:
[quote]Penn is as durable as they come. He has started all 16 games in each of the last eight seasons, dating back to 2008 with the Buccaneers. Despite his age, Penn would be a good fit for the Giants, who still have potentially two open spots to fill on their offensive line. However, like with Russell Okung, who recently visited, Penn would be asked to move to the right side as long as the Giants are as committed to Ereck Flowers as their left tackle as general manager Jerry Reese suggested they were.

So they let him go back to Oakland, who signed him for an unbelievably low amount (2 yrs, $11.9MM). Cap hit was just $6MM last year and would have been $7MM this year because he hit some incentives - like making the pro-bowl last year

This, to me, was clearly the biggest miss the Giants made. They let it be known that LT was not available. They could have signed a pro-bowler for the position last year for under $15MM on a two-year deal, which would have given Flowers competition, and given the length of the deal wouldn't have impeded the Giants from promoting or moving on from Penn had Flowers growth indicated he deserved it.

This oversight is never, ever mentioned by the press, but is clearly (to me) the biggest error made in trying to rebuild the line.


I don't think Penn was ever a real option. If I recall correctly, he re-signed with the Raiders before he even took a visit with the Giants. He was jerking Oakland's chain to get the deal he wanted.

My point about the 2016 offseason after Flowers' rookie season is that it's hard to kill Reese for not giving up on his No. 9 overall pick being a LT after 14 games. I think it's reasonable to say they should have brought someone in to compete with him as insurance, but they seem opposed to the idea of having a player in camp who presents a serious option to take the job. That's my personal opinion, not reporting, but think about it: When have they ever had much, if any, connection to any of the veterans who have hit the market over the last few years?
The fork in the road was spring 2016  
Go Terps : 9/12/2017 11:19 am : link
$200M in cap space represented a rare opportunity to dictate how the top end of the roster would be constructed. Reese opted to go all out on the defense. I have to be fair...the defense has been very good since those decisions were made.

But here we are.

And I know no one wants to hear this from me, but the Giants are approaching another fork in the road. Is it better to pay Beckham $18M/year or to invest that money in a free agent or two on the offensive line? Remember - this team does very well drafting wide receivers...it does not do well drafting OL.
RE: alex mac 2014  
Rflairr : 9/12/2017 11:19 am : link
In comment 13595488 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
.


So the OL was the problem in 14? When Eli had his best season?
RE: The fork in the road was spring 2016  
Reb8thVA : 9/12/2017 11:24 am : link
In comment 13595710 Go Terps said:
Quote:
$200M in cap space represented a rare opportunity to dictate how the top end of the roster would be constructed. Reese opted to go all out on the defense. I have to be fair...the defense has been very good since those decisions were made.

But here we are.

And I know no one wants to hear this from me, but the Giants are approaching another fork in the road. Is it better to pay Beckham $18M/year or to invest that money in a free agent or two on the offensive line? Remember - this team does very well drafting wide receivers...it does not do well drafting OL.


Exactly. With the cap there are finite resources. If you are going to spend all that money on a defense that means one thing, you better be damn good at drafting OL, something that is painfully clear that we are not good at.
RE: The fork in the road was spring 2016  
BrettNYG10 : 9/12/2017 11:33 am : link
In comment 13595710 Go Terps said:
Quote:
$200M in cap space represented a rare opportunity to dictate how the top end of the roster would be constructed. Reese opted to go all out on the defense. I have to be fair...the defense has been very good since those decisions were made.

But here we are.

And I know no one wants to hear this from me, but the Giants are approaching another fork in the road. Is it better to pay Beckham $18M/year or to invest that money in a free agent or two on the offensive line? Remember - this team does very well drafting wide receivers...it does not do well drafting OL.


How would an analysis of Eli's potential decline factor into your decision to pay or not pay Beckham? Or is that not related to your decision to pay Beckham?
RE: The fork in the road was spring 2016  
Dinger : 9/12/2017 11:40 am : link
In comment 13595710 Go Terps said:
Quote:
$200M in cap space represented a rare opportunity to dictate how the top end of the roster would be constructed. Reese opted to go all out on the defense. I have to be fair...the defense has been very good since those decisions were made.

But here we are.

And I know no one wants to hear this from me, but the Giants are approaching another fork in the road. Is it better to pay Beckham $18M/year or to invest that money in a free agent or two on the offensive line? Remember - this team does very well drafting wide receivers...it does not do well drafting OL.


Great point. This FO is very adept at evaluating certain positions(WR, DB, DL and you could argue RB and TE) and horrible at others(OL, LB and you could argue QBs). I think IF Reese and the front office stay in tact they will sign Odell as he is too high profile to let walk. I think they will draft OL high in '18 and continue to tinker.
RE: RE: alex mac 2014  
Devon : 9/12/2017 11:40 am : link
In comment 13595711 Rflairr said:
Quote:
In comment 13595488 idiotsavant said:


Quote:


.



So the OL was the problem in 14? When Eli had his best season?


If you took Eli's top four statistical seasons (2009, 2011, 2014, 2015), the only year the OL wasn't a problem or below average was 2009 -- and that was clearly the time the team itself was trying to be proactive and rebuild it (bringing in Andrews, drafting Beatty, etc), however unsuccessful they ended up being. He covered for them then, those seasons; he can't, probably due to too much of it at this point, now.

I wouldn't have signed Mack to fix anything though.
RE: The fork in the road was spring 2016  
Dinger : 9/12/2017 11:40 am : link
In comment 13595710 Go Terps said:
Quote:
$200M in cap space represented a rare opportunity to dictate how the top end of the roster would be constructed. Reese opted to go all out on the defense. I have to be fair...the defense has been very good since those decisions were made.

But here we are.

And I know no one wants to hear this from me, but the Giants are approaching another fork in the road. Is it better to pay Beckham $18M/year or to invest that money in a free agent or two on the offensive line? Remember - this team does very well drafting wide receivers...it does not do well drafting OL.


Great point. This FO is very adept at evaluating certain positions(WR, DB, DL and you could argue RB and TE) and horrible at others(OL, LB and you could argue QBs). I think IF Reese and the front office stay in tact they will sign Odell as he is too high profile to let walk. I think they will draft OL high in '18 and continue to tinker.
RE: The fork in the road was spring 2016  
widmerseyebrow : 9/12/2017 11:48 am : link
In comment 13595710 Go Terps said:
Quote:
$200M in cap space represented a rare opportunity to dictate how the top end of the roster would be constructed. Reese opted to go all out on the defense. I have to be fair...the defense has been very good since those decisions were made.

But here we are.

And I know no one wants to hear this from me, but the Giants are approaching another fork in the road. Is it better to pay Beckham $18M/year or to invest that money in a free agent or two on the offensive line? Remember - this team does very well drafting wide receivers...it does not do well drafting OL.


The problem is the Giants have been equally bad or worse at signing free agent offensive linemen.

The cap was not a major hindrance in choosing not to sign Whitworth as noted by the article. Hurting Ereck Flowers' feelings and admitting an error seem to have been bigger factors for the FO.
The writer described Jerry as being solid in 2016  
SHO'NUFF : 9/12/2017 12:28 pm : link
and suggests we should've re-signed New house... Lost all credibility with me.
RE: RE: would you forsake Odell  
Sonic Youth : 9/12/2017 12:36 pm : link
In comment 13595356 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
In comment 13595317 I Love Clams Casino said:


Quote:


for Zack Martin?



One lineman doesn't fix the OL while OBJ is a transcendant player that effects the entire Offense... But would I trade Eli Apple or Engram for Tunsil and Cam Robinson or Lamp? hell yes..
Apple for Tunsil is the one that sticks out most.

Yes, our D might not be top flight anymore without Apple as the 2nd/3rd CB.

But that would be offset with Tunsil anchoring down an important position on the line.
Jerry's kids  
HomerJones45 : 9/12/2017 1:06 pm : link
too many experiments (Jones) and bargain basement "finds" (Fluker and Jerry), poor draft prospect evaluation (Pugh is not exactly an All-Pro and poor free agent evaluation (to this that there were not free agents out there better than the "talent" on the roster). Pugh is serviceable. The ever-young Flowers has been almost to that level. You expect more out of #1 picks.

Too much time spent on the experiments and the bargain basement acquisitions. If the experiments are not starters or pushing starters by year 2, what the hell are you wasting more time with them? If the bargain basement types aren't pushing starters immediately, then they are what their original teams thought they were, bums.
RE: RE: What is really disconcerting is that players like...  
M.S. : 9/12/2017 1:16 pm : link
In comment 13595457 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 13595452 M.S. said:


Quote:



...Ereck Flowers and John Jerry make the same mistakes over and over again.

And we saw more of the same on Sunday Night.

In the case of Ereck Flowers, it's all about defensive ends getting him to put too much weight on his outside leg, and then he is ultra vulnerable to an inside rip job straight to the QB.

As for John Jerry, the guy just can't figure out that
when the defensive tackle rubs into him and then into Hart, he's got to be mindful of a LB or DE looping into his vacated hole.

Same thing all the time.

Big trouble for Big Blue.




MS - I agree...I wonder about Jerry's football acumen. That seems to be a simple correction, but he has struggled with it since he's been a Giant.

Yea... it's a mystery to me why this happens! JJ may understand what's happening, but the thought doesn't translate quickly enough to his body to do much about it. I'm throwing my hands up in the air and just hoping things get better.
RE: RE: RE: RE: My problem with the article...  
Dan in the Springs : 9/12/2017 1:28 pm : link
In comment 13595702 James Kratch said:
Quote:

I don't think Penn was ever a real option. If I recall correctly, he re-signed with the Raiders before he even took a visit with the Giants. He was jerking Oakland's chain to get the deal he wanted.

You are correct - he had an appointment but never got on the plane. See my below comment for the criticism of the strategy, but for now, I'll just say it was surprising that in reviewing the circumstances they find themselves in, no real mention in your article was made about the critical decision they made in spring 2016 other than the acknowledgement that the made some attempts at getting a RT, nothing about the LT position. You focused on the decision in 2017 as the error instead.

Quote:
My point about the 2016 offseason after Flowers' rookie season is that it's hard to kill Reese for not giving up on his No. 9 overall pick being a LT after 14 games. I think it's reasonable to say they should have brought someone in to compete with him as insurance, but they seem opposed to the idea of having a player in camp who presents a serious option to take the job. That's my personal opinion, not reporting, but think about it: When have they ever had much, if any, connection to any of the veterans who have hit the market over the last few years?


I agree completely with you on the point in bold. It was reported that the Giants were committed to Flowers at LT in the spring and that they telegraphed that to potential FA.

Here are their options at OT.
Flowers and Hart (current starters)
Fluker - they don't see him as a starter.
UDFA Wheeler
Move Pugh to LT.

I cannot think of a bigger reason they are in the mess they are in than the decision they made that spring, but in your article you made no real mention of that critical decision. I thought it was an oversight.

Having said that - the rest of your article is spot on. I agree especially with the criticism of not going after Whitworth this spring. This would have remedied many problems, and in the end, the cap space was available. I don't think it was a Whitworth vs. DRC decision either, although the example is a good thought exercise. A better one would be Whitworth vs. Pugh who have nearly identical cap hits this year and possibly next.

The bottom line is that they have evaluated Flowers poorly for several years in a row now.

What's going on with OL development is another issue - and I'm not sure I agree totally with your assessment of Solari as a good OL coach and the problem is simply on the player acquisition side. There needs to be better player development than we've gotten on the OL.

Since you're reading this thread - how about looking into the development emphasis for a very interesting article. What I mean by that is that there are a lot of teams who are struggling to develop OL. A lot has been written about how OL are not getting reps in college in pro-offense and so they aren't ready. What I'd like to know is how much time is spent in camp/practices working on execution of plays - group work vs. individual work. I think with the limited amount of time it might be best to put individual player development in the player's hands, spending all of the instruction time on executing plays.

Since practice time has been limited teams no longer view camp as a time for players to get their conditioning right. This has to be done on the players' own time. Can't teams take the next move and say that footwork and hand-placement drills are done on your own time so that camp/practice time can be spent on group work, like spacing, etc. that the team seems to have a lot of trouble with?

I honestly think the solution has to be to get better at player development in the offseason (individual work at player's own time and expense) and get better at execution during camp/practice.
Another couple of performances like Dallas...  
M.S. : 9/12/2017 1:47 pm : link

...and I'd simply flip Flowers and Pugh.

And if either one balks, the exit sign is straight ahead.
RE: RE: alex mac 2014  
Sonic Youth : 9/12/2017 1:51 pm : link
In comment 13595711 Rflairr said:
Quote:
In comment 13595488 idiotsavant said:


Quote:


.



So the OL was the problem in 14? When Eli had his best season?
The OL was not very good AT ALL in '14.
RE: RE: The fork in the road was spring 2016  
Go Terps : 9/12/2017 2:11 pm : link
In comment 13595731 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 13595710 Go Terps said:


Quote:


$200M in cap space represented a rare opportunity to dictate how the top end of the roster would be constructed. Reese opted to go all out on the defense. I have to be fair...the defense has been very good since those decisions were made.

But here we are.

And I know no one wants to hear this from me, but the Giants are approaching another fork in the road. Is it better to pay Beckham $18M/year or to invest that money in a free agent or two on the offensive line? Remember - this team does very well drafting wide receivers...it does not do well drafting OL.



How would an analysis of Eli's potential decline factor into your decision to pay or not pay Beckham? Or is that not related to your decision to pay Beckham?


I don't pay Beckham regardless.
Terps, your plan might have some merit IF  
jcn56 : 9/12/2017 2:14 pm : link
they were able to replace Beckham was a true #1 WR and get a LT with the money they'd spend on Beckham.

I highly doubt that would be the case, though. Just getting an LT for Beckham doesn't do you much - you've removed the only real deep threat from the team.

Right now, I'm less concerned with paying Beckham and how that cost might be too high, and more concerned with the fact that Eli is occupying close to $20M and not delivering anywhere close to it in performance, OL issues or not.
jcn  
Go Terps : 9/12/2017 3:21 pm : link
We'll have plenty of opportunities to address WR through the draft, an area where I have complete confidence in our front office. I wouldn't expect them to draft another player of Beckham's quality, but they wouldn't have to.

I wouldn't focus the OL search on solely the left tackle. I think we could use improvement everywhere. I also think that the days of the left tackle being the most important OL are over...last night I saw Von Miller lining up everywhere on the defensive line, attacking different linemen.

I completely agree on Eli...we aren't getting $20M of quality play from him. A big reason for that is that the line blows...from an organizational standpoint we picked a bad time in our QB timeline to roll dice on the offensive line.
RE: jcn  
jcn56 : 9/12/2017 3:27 pm : link
In comment 13596206 Go Terps said:
Quote:
We'll have plenty of opportunities to address WR through the draft, an area where I have complete confidence in our front office. I wouldn't expect them to draft another player of Beckham's quality, but they wouldn't have to.

I wouldn't focus the OL search on solely the left tackle. I think we could use improvement everywhere. I also think that the days of the left tackle being the most important OL are over...last night I saw Von Miller lining up everywhere on the defensive line, attacking different linemen.

I completely agree on Eli...we aren't getting $20M of quality play from him. A big reason for that is that the line blows...from an organizational standpoint we picked a bad time in our QB timeline to roll dice on the offensive line.


Addressing WR in the draft is all well and good provided you can draft high - after the middle of the first round, the success rate starts to drop pretty quickly.

As for OL - even if you don't replace the OT, you're spending big bucks and likely don't get two players with what Beckham would cost. (IMO your only move here is to spend the majority of your $$$ getting a LT, moving Flowers to RT, and spending whatever's left on a guard or center).
jcn  
Go Terps : 9/12/2017 3:35 pm : link
We have a good history of getting college WRs in here at varying levels of the draft:

Smith (2)
Manningham (3)
Nicks (1 - 29th overall)
Cruz (UDFA)
Randle (2) - not a great player but productive while he was here
Beckham (1)
Shepard (2)

And we've done well in the recent past with practice squad types like King and possibly now Rudolph. I would trust the front office to be able to maintain a pipeline at the position.

We obviously can't say the same for the offensive line. Yeah you can't build an entire offensive line with Beckham's money, but it helps. And consider also that we're not too far from Eli's money coming off the books.

Basically, if I'm Reese my top priority these next 2 or 3 years is building a top offensive line to complement our defensive line. Enough is enough.
I don't think this defensive line has 3 years in it.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/13/2017 1:12 am : link
It's really hard to try to formulate a roster-building strategy for the distant future. Damon Harrison is the key to that plan, and god forbid, but he could have a career-altering injury next week.
I just read an article by Bart Scott who says  
Jersey55 : 9/13/2017 4:38 pm : link
the Giants need to seriously consider putting together a trade offer to a team for a starting quality LT, he thinks Joe Thomas and Joe Staley could be made available for the right deal, drastic times call for drastic measures. Scott says the price might be high but that depends on how much a team wants to win this year, the guys we have right now can't get the job done, but the real question is, does Reese have the balls to make a deal like this....
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