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How do you judge when a quarterback is done?

CMicks3110 : 9/12/2017 9:33 am
Watching Eli, I haven't seen a decline in arm strength, his deep ball to Marshall was well OVerthrown and went a good 50-55 yards which has been par the course for Eli for a number of years. The biggest difference for me has been his skittishness in the pocket, he looks like he's playing scared. I heard a radio host last night who was dead on, this offense is better built for a running quarterback, someone who can allow the receivers to get deeper into their roots, all the defenses know that Eli is going to throw in 2-3 seconds so they are sitting on routes watching Eli and jumping because he is not going through his profession. This will be a huge problem if we can't fix out running game. If we can get some play action I think defenses will be in trouble because we do have serious playmakers
Deep balls aren't the best indicator of arm strength.  
Section331 : 9/12/2017 9:42 am : link
Any NFL QB can throw it 60 yards. The key indicator is if they can make the 10-15 yard out pattern, where they have to make what amounts to a 30 yard throw on a rope.

Eli never had a big arm, but could make all of the throws necessary. What sets great QB's apart is if they can identify what the defense is trying to do, and counter that. I think Eli's problems are rooted less in decline in arm strength and more in hearing footsteps. The OL has been piss poor for 4 years now, and I think once a QB starts to hear those footsteps, and anticipate pressure before it is there, that is the hardest hurdle to get over.
Tom Brady doesn't have big arm either  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 9/12/2017 10:01 am : link
I think when a QB can't make the throws he used to...when it's obvious the throws he used to make are just off is a real example of decline.
A qb that can no longer make the  
32_Razor : 9/12/2017 10:05 am : link
Sideline 20 yard sideline throw with accurlracy
Tom Brady bombed a 75 yarder  
Eli2020 : 9/12/2017 10:06 am : link
Across the damn field to Randy Moss in the final minutes of the Super Bowl. He's had (and still has) a cannon.
When they switched to a WCO  
RetroJint : 9/12/2017 10:09 am : link
Baltimore did at the same time. I thought it was a mistake by both teams , as neither quarterback seemed suited for that passing offense. Quarterback Rating aside, which is always inflationary in a WCO, I think my viewpoint was validated. Flacco can run straight line , but neither guy throws well on the run.

EAll NFL passing offenses have similar components. The Cowboys used the Coryell Vertical for over a generation, but they now most resemble a WCO because Prescott's skill set fits.

What would work most right now for Eli is the modified WCO that Fassel had in place for Kerry Collins, who was another statue back there. In fact in the off-season I remarked that it would be a plus to bring JF back as the coordinator , and get McAdoo out of the play-calling business. Would never happen, I know. Fassel has been essentially banned by the league (it doesn't happen to just Anthem kneelers) , and then there is the pride issue.

But I think Coughlin made a big mistake when he made the change. And, Eli, sans Beckham, looks like the McCown brothers.

OK the Oline. Solari should have been let go. He isn't the first unit coach to garner an undeserved reputation by having excellent talent . But Goo , Rosenthal, Parker and those guys weren't exactly the Five Blocks of Granite, either.

Terrible coaching. Diminished skill set. Poorly suited system. All on parade for everybody to enjoy. It will get better with the great player's return. The line will start run blocking in Week 13, as per usual.
Done or done with the team he is on?  
AnnapolisMike : 9/12/2017 10:09 am : link
When he can no longer execute the offense. In some ways it looks like Eli just does not do well in the offense that the Giants are running right now. He seems to get rattled early and it becomes dump off city all game. I know it is a different offense...but the deep game the Giants used to have is gone.
I agree I don't think arm strength is a problem  
chuckydee9 : 9/12/2017 10:14 am : link
The problem is he is shell shocked and even the few times when the OL protects him he has a clock in his head and doesn't set properly.. after 5 years of being behind bad OL I am afraid for the first time that he may be done.. Even if you fix the OL next season he would need a lot of time to get the comfort level back to be an Elite QB..

JR has fucked this up real bad..
Hopefully..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2017 10:18 am : link
not when the internet mob gets pitchforks out after a loss.
many factors  
GiantNatty : 9/12/2017 10:18 am : link
lack of arm strength (which I definitely do see with Eli - yes he can heave it 50 yards down the field but at punt-height) is relatively unimportant. quick decisions, an ability to lead, ability to take hits, ability to raise his teammates game and instill confidence are much more important.

I am wondering what the guys on the team - the vast majority of which were not here in 2011 - think of Eli. He has been underperforming for years now. I wonder if some of them think to themselves "I know he's won championships, but from what I'm seeing, he's just not that good." Frankly, some of them have to be thinking that given that they regularly face quarterbacks who play better than he does. I'm worried it could get ugly, and reasonably so.
I don't get these statute comments - IMO Eli moved around the pocket  
PatersonPlank : 9/12/2017 10:19 am : link
pretty well. He bought a lot of time. Look at the play where Jerry gets pushed right back into him (yes I know there are more than just one), he practically hopped over him and scrambled out. He was moving left and right pretty well feeling the pressure. He's not a Cam like runner, but then again Cam and Wilson don't run anymore either because its dumb.

In my opinion Eli is having issues because he has no time and we can't run, which is part of the defenses game plan and can only be fixed by better OL play. I also think his accuracy is off a little because he's always being rushed (however he did hit 73% of his passes so I don't know how accurate that is).

Fix the OL and you'll fix Eli.
I read things..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2017 10:21 am : link
like this and I just wonder what people see:

Quote:
He has been underperforming for years now.


You'd swear 2014 and 2105 were decades ago!
RE: I don't get these statute comments - IMO Eli moved around the pocket  
rocco8112 : 9/12/2017 10:34 am : link
In comment 13595540 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
pretty well. He bought a lot of time. Look at the play where Jerry gets pushed right back into him (yes I know there are more than just one), he practically hopped over him and scrambled out. He was moving left and right pretty well feeling the pressure. He's not a Cam like runner, but then again Cam and Wilson don't run anymore either because its dumb.

In my opinion Eli is having issues because he has no time and we can't run, which is part of the defenses game plan and can only be fixed by better OL play. I also think his accuracy is off a little because he's always being rushed (however he did hit 73% of his passes so I don't know how accurate that is).

Fix the OL and you'll fix Eli.


I see it this way as well. Sunday was a joke on offense, but I thought Eli actually showed pocket presence and mobility in the pocket.

Since McAdoo was named head coach this team has had the worst offense of the Eli era with the possible exception of 2013.

Why? The biggest change was the coaching change. Also, the Giants simply have no physicality on O. This team simply can not run the ball. The O does not wear down the opposition front with a run game. There is ZERO respect for play action. The one drive to start the second half was Eli firing it in tight to Shepard and I think Ellison had a nice physical run and catch for a near first down. Once things got tight inside the red zone there was no fear of running the ball and the online was destroyed on a play resulting in a sack.

The only thing this offense is good for is a big play to Beckham or short pin prick passes in tight windows that do nothing.

I know the Giants were 11 5 last year, but it is time to be very concerned about this coach. This season started in almost the worst way possible
Eli  
TyreeHelmet : 9/12/2017 10:36 am : link
Let me preface this by saying how much I love Eli and don't view him as the problem. But if Eli was available as a free agent this past offseason, how many teams would have pursued him as a starter? My best guess?

Houston
Arizona
Jaguars
Denver

He could obviously start the Jets, Bills, Rams, Browns etc but would those teams are trying to rebuild.

I'm not saying this proves anything. Just something to think about it.
i stand by that comment  
GiantNatty : 9/12/2017 10:42 am : link
yes, statistically 2014 and 15 were "good" years, but in terms of coming up short in big spots, we haven't seen the magic with eli since 2011. his stats have also benefited greatly from having beckham.

6-10 in 2014 and 2015 with eli at the helm should hardly be considered good. not when, in many games, there were critical moments where just marginally better play by him could have made all the difference. instead, he came up short, or made a lazy throw, or lost a fumble, or made an awful clock management decision, or overthrew a receiver, etc. too many times.

he hasn't asserted himself, or looked like the best quarterback even in the division, for YEARS now. last year the offense was downright terrible- they were 11-5 because of the defense and beckham. I love eli, but if you don't see the obvious decline, i'm not sure what I can say to convince you.

also, 'ray bucknell.
RE: I read things..  
x meadowlander : 9/12/2017 10:44 am : link
In comment 13595546 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
like this and I just wonder what people see:



Quote:


He has been underperforming for years now.



You'd swear 2014 and 2105 were decades ago!
This site hurts my head.

My favorite posts are the ones calling for replacing McAdoo with Spags - Spags defense in 2007 of course epically gave up 80+ points in the first 2 games, so he wouldn't have made it to game 3 under the management of these posters.
RE: I read things..  
JCin332 : 9/12/2017 10:46 am : link
In comment 13595546 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
like this and I just wonder what people see:



Quote:


He has been underperforming for years now.



You'd swear 2014 and 2105 were decades ago!


FMIC it's Giant Natty at his finest...
RE: RE: I don't get these statute comments - IMO Eli moved around the pocket  
montanagiant : 9/12/2017 10:50 am : link
In comment 13595596 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
In comment 13595540 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


pretty well. He bought a lot of time. Look at the play where Jerry gets pushed right back into him (yes I know there are more than just one), he practically hopped over him and scrambled out. He was moving left and right pretty well feeling the pressure. He's not a Cam like runner, but then again Cam and Wilson don't run anymore either because its dumb.

In my opinion Eli is having issues because he has no time and we can't run, which is part of the defenses game plan and can only be fixed by better OL play. I also think his accuracy is off a little because he's always being rushed (however he did hit 73% of his passes so I don't know how accurate that is).

Fix the OL and you'll fix Eli.



I see it this way as well. Sunday was a joke on offense, but I thought Eli actually showed pocket presence and mobility in the pocket.

Since McAdoo was named head coach this team has had the worst offense of the Eli era with the possible exception of 2013.

Why? The biggest change was the coaching change. Also, the Giants simply have no physicality on O. This team simply can not run the ball. The O does not wear down the opposition front with a run game. There is ZERO respect for play action. The one drive to start the second half was Eli firing it in tight to Shepard and I think Ellison had a nice physical run and catch for a near first down. Once things got tight inside the red zone there was no fear of running the ball and the online was destroyed on a play resulting in a sack.

The only thing this offense is good for is a big play to Beckham or short pin prick passes in tight windows that do nothing.

I know the Giants were 11 5 last year, but it is time to be very concerned about this coach. This season started in almost the worst way possible

I think this is one of the best breakdowns about our situation so far. It's not Eli, it's the Offensive scheming and playcalling
RE: RE: I read things..  
PatersonPlank : 9/12/2017 10:50 am : link
In comment 13595638 JCin332 said:
Quote:
In comment 13595546 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


like this and I just wonder what people see:



Quote:


He has been underperforming for years now.



You'd swear 2014 and 2105 were decades ago!



FMIC it's Giant Natty at his finest...


Eli has been under performing since we traded away our teams future for him in 2004!
RE: Eli  
Section331 : 9/12/2017 10:55 am : link
In comment 13595607 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
Let me preface this by saying how much I love Eli and don't view him as the problem. But if Eli was available as a free agent this past offseason, how many teams would have pursued him as a starter? My best guess?

Houston
Arizona
Jaguars
Denver

He could obviously start the Jets, Bills, Rams, Browns etc but would those teams are trying to rebuild.

I'm not saying this proves anything. Just something to think about it.


He's a 36 year old QB, of course the only teams that would consider signing him would be good teams in need of a QB. I think if those teams really were interested in Eli, that would be a good indicator that they thought he can still play.
This..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2017 10:56 am : link
is pretty much a useless exercise:
Quote:
Eli
TyreeHelmet : 10:36 am : link : reply
Let me preface this by saying how much I love Eli and don't view him as the problem. But if Eli was available as a free agent this past offseason, how many teams would have pursued him as a starter? My best guess?

Houston
Arizona
Jaguars
Denver

He could obviously start the Jets, Bills, Rams, Browns etc but would those teams are trying to rebuild.

I'm not saying this proves anything. Just something to think about it.


Not many teams need a QB. Think about it - if Tom Brady were available this year, you know who would have pursued him? Those same teams.

That's not an indication of a player's talent or current status - it is that very few are going to dump the guy they have, sign a high $$ contract to a new guy when they don't need to.
.  
Go Terps : 9/12/2017 11:03 am : link
I'd wager that Eli can throw the ball as far now as he ever has.

I think I remember Troy Aikman telling Francesa that, unless the QB completely lets himself go, arm strength is the last thing to go.
Re: Skittishness...  
FranknWeezer : 9/12/2017 11:48 am : link
...did any of you watch Phillip Rivers last night? He threw almost every pass drifting to his right, back on his heels and moving away from the OL and oncoming pass rush. It's not just Eli.
...  
christian : 9/12/2017 11:57 am : link
The Giants were never parting ways with Manning this year - but I do think it would benifit the staff to see the player against live action more to assess where he's at physically.

The pre-season is treated as a nuisance by this staff.

Against live bullets, with this line, with these targets, Manning had little action.

Evidenced by Sunday night, the staff didn't plan well for those variables working in concert.
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