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Most treated Kevin Gilbride unfairly here-

Sean : 9/12/2017 8:21 pm
I don't mean this as a pile on Ben McAdoo post. I thought he did a very good job last year & think he is the right man for the job going forward.

With that said, most here were very hard on Gilbride, a man who led 2 Giant Super Bowl champion offenses. A lot of us, myself included, got so wrapped up in Eli's numbers and whether he could put up big numbers in a more QB friendly system. The bottom line, Gilbride's system worked just fine **when things were going well.** Eli's numbers have been better, but most of that can be attributed to Odell Beckham and his tremendous YAC results. Eli is Eli whether Gilbride is running the show or McAdoo. He throws a lot of picks and is not going to put up massive numbers, and that's okay.

Gilbride's system was volatile & with a bad offensive line it does not work (see 18 TD - 27 INT in 2013). The idea that Gilbride was causing Eli bad numbers is so absurd, it is about winning titles & they did that twice. Eli had a fantastic completion rating this past week and it was arguably one of his worst regular season games.
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I always thought that Gilbride was underrated  
armstead98 : 9/12/2017 8:27 pm : link
With him the Giants could run the ball and pass all over the field.

Grass wasn't actually greener.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 9/12/2017 8:31 pm : link
I was a big fan of Gilbride. He helped Eli immensely.
.  
Danny Kanell : 9/12/2017 8:32 pm : link
That offense was a disaster at the end, especially with the new CBA. Way too complicated for the amount of time teams are allowed to practice nowadays. It ran its course. It was great when everything was in sync but it's a different NFL now.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2017 8:33 pm : link
The problem with Gilbride's offense was that it didn't seem like we could adapt and play in a way that minimized our personnel weaknesses. It was a tough offense to have Eli run given the issues on the offensive line and things were getting ugly quickly.

It seemed like the philosophy change was good for him but now we seem to be at another impasse where the offense looks "broken" again.

I think it was smart to adopt more short passing concepts, and it seemed to be paying dividends the first couple of years - but now the offense looks "broken" again, which is highly concerning. Most of it is the crappy offensive line play - but you also have to wonder how much Eli is contributing to it. It might not be crazy to say that he's part of the problem at this point (as much as it pains me to say)

That said, I think a lack of a run game, the inability to consistently block up front and some pretty questionable playcalling are all bigger culprits right now.

However, where I was positive Eli was not an issue at all before.. I don't know now. We're basically at the point where if he doesn't have a clean pocket, the play goes to complete shit. He looks like he has the yips - his internal clock still seems to be suffering.

The arm strength looks to still be there - but he's missing some throws that he really needs to make. The play where Marshall leaked out to the left and Eli missed him was a really big blown opportunity - that could have been a pretty big play. We can't leave those on the field.
Not me  
joeinpa : 9/12/2017 8:33 pm : link
I was a fan
"Complicated" to me is code for "bad offensive line"  
widmerseyebrow : 9/12/2017 8:38 pm : link
1. Mario Manningham was hardly the brightest and did well in Gilbride's offense. The "Complicated" stuff turned out to be excuse making for Jerrell Jernigan and Reuben Randall, both of which are confirmed turds now.

2. We're in a so called simplified offense now and we're seeing similar results. The common denominator? Horrible offensive line play. Criticism of McAdoo's system is starting to sound awfully similar to Gilbride's final year.
RE: .  
Joey in VA : 9/12/2017 8:39 pm : link
In comment 13596542 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
That offense was a disaster at the end, especially with the new CBA. Way too complicated for the amount of time teams are allowed to practice nowadays. It ran its course. It was great when everything was in sync but it's a different NFL now.
100% accurate.
His offense WAS complicated.  
Mike from SI : 9/12/2017 8:43 pm : link
It was premised upon Eli and the receivers all making the same sight reads with little communication. That's not easy.
No, Gilbride's offense did not work  
eclipz928 : 9/12/2017 8:44 pm : link
"just fine", and that's why he was shown the door. It's easy to be nostalgic now with this team being completely infuriating with what they've been doing offensively, but the reality is that the Giants were also not in a good situation prior to McAdoo coming on board.
I don't think anyone can deny that the McAdoo offense  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/12/2017 8:46 pm : link
has resulted in fewer interceptions despite the fact Eli is attempting more passes. The difference in interception percentage is obvious.
Gilbride  
Mr. Nickels : 9/12/2017 8:47 pm : link
Chuck and duck
some of gilbride's playcalling was ridiculous  
Les in TO : 9/12/2017 8:49 pm : link
3rd and 1 and the giants attempt 30 yard heaves down the field or low percentage timing routes.
Gilbride's offense reminded me of a high pressure direct injection  
jcn56 : 9/12/2017 8:54 pm : link
engine. When everything is working right, it's perfection. One small problem somewhere - and the engine could blow itself to bits.

Executed properly, it was unstoppable at times - and others, it couldn't get out of it's own fucking way. Despite the fact that we had more cap and draft picks allocated to the offense, it took two big time defensive performances to turn out those championship seasons.
I am nostalgic for the Gilbride golden years  
Jim in Fairfax : 9/12/2017 8:56 pm : link
But not for the system. For the offensive linemen: Snee, Diehl, McKenzie, et al.
I like KG  
SHO'NUFF : 9/12/2017 9:15 pm : link
but he didn't change with the times.
RE: Gilbride's offense reminded me of a high pressure direct injection  
Devon : 9/12/2017 9:16 pm : link
In comment 13596564 jcn56 said:
Quote:
engine. When everything is working right, it's perfection. One small problem somewhere - and the engine could blow itself to bits.

Executed properly, it was unstoppable at times - and others, it couldn't get out of it's own fucking way. Despite the fact that we had more cap and draft picks allocated to the offense, it took two big time defensive performances to turn out those championship seasons.


The Giants had more % of cap space dedicated to the defense in both 2011 and 2007.

2012 was the year it swung the other way, thanks to several guys on the OL's cap hits kicking in.
Ha ha  
Mark from Jersey : 9/12/2017 9:18 pm : link
people longing for the days of Killdrive
RE: RE: Gilbride's offense reminded me of a high pressure direct injection  
Devon : 9/12/2017 9:18 pm : link
In comment 13596589 Devon said:
Quote:
In comment 13596564 jcn56 said:


Quote:


engine. When everything is working right, it's perfection. One small problem somewhere - and the engine could blow itself to bits.

Executed properly, it was unstoppable at times - and others, it couldn't get out of it's own fucking way. Despite the fact that we had more cap and draft picks allocated to the offense, it took two big time defensive performances to turn out those championship seasons.



The Giants had more % of cap space dedicated to the defense in both 2011 and 2007.

2012 was the year it swung the other way, thanks to several guys on the OL's cap hits kicking in.


2011, for example, was 43.02% offense, 55.06% defense... and remember the defense was only 27th ranked that regular season, even if they thankfully stepped up late.

I'm pretty sure the draft picks aren't as heavily sided towards the offense either, through those points, but I haven't checked that to 100% sure.
I think Gilbride was properly  
Enzo : 9/12/2017 9:20 pm : link
rated by most Giant fans. Seems like our view of him was similar to how he was viewed around the league. After all, how many interviews did he get for head coaching positions while he was the Giants' offensive coordinator? And he was lobbying for a head coaching gig at times. Hell, even TC didn't bring him in as a offensive coordinator to start.
Gilbride's offense was far more exciting  
dpinzow : 9/12/2017 9:22 pm : link
and still would have worked with a good OL. The collapse of our old OL (Diehl, Seubert, O'Hara, Snee, McKenzie) caused the 2013 debacle with Gilbride
...  
christian : 9/12/2017 9:25 pm : link
It's easy to critique a system in hindsight. Reality is good offense in the modern NFL requires 1) quality QB play 2) quality lineman 3) quality weapons.

You subtract any of the 3 and good luck.

The Giants have invested draft picks in the offense and cap space in the defense. If Pugh, Rich, and Flowers were plus players, we'd be a contender. Because they are not, we are not.

It's simple economics, the investments have not paid off.
RE: RE: RE: Gilbride's offense reminded me of a high pressure direct injection  
jcn56 : 9/12/2017 9:29 pm : link
In comment 13596596 Devon said:
Quote:
In comment 13596589 Devon said:


Quote:


In comment 13596564 jcn56 said:


Quote:


engine. When everything is working right, it's perfection. One small problem somewhere - and the engine could blow itself to bits.

Executed properly, it was unstoppable at times - and others, it couldn't get out of it's own fucking way. Despite the fact that we had more cap and draft picks allocated to the offense, it took two big time defensive performances to turn out those championship seasons.



The Giants had more % of cap space dedicated to the defense in both 2011 and 2007.

2012 was the year it swung the other way, thanks to several guys on the OL's cap hits kicking in.



2011, for example, was 43.02% offense, 55.06% defense... and remember the defense was only 27th ranked that regular season, even if they thankfully stepped up late.

I'm pretty sure the draft picks aren't as heavily sided towards the offense either, through those points, but I haven't checked that to 100% sure.


I don't think your numbers are accurate - what's your source? Spotrac only goes back to 13, but starting in 13 and going forward, it historically offensively biased. I seem to recall (and can't find a source for now) that the 07 team was particularly biased towards the offense.
BBI like so many anonymous internet sites encourages and plays to  
plato : 9/12/2017 9:35 pm : link
Bullying and attacks. Site was amazingly mean to Gilbride, allowing so many to vent ignorance in anger. Oh well, it's our current world.
He got  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/12/2017 9:37 pm : link
way too much shit on this website.
Missing Gilbride?  
DonQuixote : 9/12/2017 9:37 pm : link
Oh Please. If you are going to compare the Giants offense with past Giant offenses, fine, but I am more concerned with how they stack up with the rest of the league ... not good.
unfairly?  
RasputinPrime : 9/12/2017 9:37 pm : link
I didn't like his system. I still don't. You can win with any number of systems and I was hoping the post-Gilbride world would be more interesting and consistent. It hasn't happened yet.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Gilbride's offense reminded me of a high pressure direct injection  
Devon : 9/12/2017 9:39 pm : link
In comment 13596608 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13596596 Devon said:


Quote:


In comment 13596589 Devon said:


Quote:


In comment 13596564 jcn56 said:


Quote:


engine. When everything is working right, it's perfection. One small problem somewhere - and the engine could blow itself to bits.

Executed properly, it was unstoppable at times - and others, it couldn't get out of it's own fucking way. Despite the fact that we had more cap and draft picks allocated to the offense, it took two big time defensive performances to turn out those championship seasons.



The Giants had more % of cap space dedicated to the defense in both 2011 and 2007.

2012 was the year it swung the other way, thanks to several guys on the OL's cap hits kicking in.



2011, for example, was 43.02% offense, 55.06% defense... and remember the defense was only 27th ranked that regular season, even if they thankfully stepped up late.

I'm pretty sure the draft picks aren't as heavily sided towards the offense either, through those points, but I haven't checked that to 100% sure.



I don't think your numbers are accurate - what's your source? Spotrac only goes back to 13, but starting in 13 and going forward, it historically offensively biased. I seem to recall (and can't find a source for now) that the 07 team was particularly biased towards the offense.


And old FO almanac -- though I did read it wrong, as I was looking at payouts.

The share numbers were 45.08% to 52.41%, offense to defense. I remembered it being this way, before looking, because at the time when the defense was playing like trash, it was brought up. A lot. About how they weren't getting value for the money they were spending, but were getting great value out of the WR contracts.

Also, looking the drafts just now, you were definitely wrong on the draft pick distribution.

From 2004 through 2011, there were 23 picks spent on offense (that's including those traded to SD), 34 on defense, and two on specials.

Three firsts (again, including the SD picks) on offense, five on defense. Four seconds on offense, five on defense. Four thirds on offense, four on defense, one on specials.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Gilbride's offense reminded me of a high pressure direct injection  
Devon : 9/12/2017 9:46 pm : link
In comment 13596620 Devon said:
Quote:
In comment 13596608 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13596596 Devon said:


Quote:


In comment 13596589 Devon said:


Quote:


In comment 13596564 jcn56 said:


Quote:


engine. When everything is working right, it's perfection. One small problem somewhere - and the engine could blow itself to bits.

Executed properly, it was unstoppable at times - and others, it couldn't get out of it's own fucking way. Despite the fact that we had more cap and draft picks allocated to the offense, it took two big time defensive performances to turn out those championship seasons.



The Giants had more % of cap space dedicated to the defense in both 2011 and 2007.

2012 was the year it swung the other way, thanks to several guys on the OL's cap hits kicking in.



2011, for example, was 43.02% offense, 55.06% defense... and remember the defense was only 27th ranked that regular season, even if they thankfully stepped up late.

I'm pretty sure the draft picks aren't as heavily sided towards the offense either, through those points, but I haven't checked that to 100% sure.



I don't think your numbers are accurate - what's your source? Spotrac only goes back to 13, but starting in 13 and going forward, it historically offensively biased. I seem to recall (and can't find a source for now) that the 07 team was particularly biased towards the offense.



And old FO almanac -- though I did read it wrong, as I was looking at payouts.

The share numbers were 45.08% to 52.41%, offense to defense. I remembered it being this way, before looking, because at the time when the defense was playing like trash, it was brought up. A lot. About how they weren't getting value for the money they were spending, but were getting great value out of the WR contracts.

Also, looking the drafts just now, you were definitely wrong on the draft pick distribution.

From 2004 through 2011, there were 23 picks spent on offense (that's including those traded to SD), 34 on defense, and two on specials.

Three firsts (again, including the SD picks) on offense, five on defense. Four seconds on offense, five on defense. Four thirds on offense, four on defense, one on specials.


*edit out the one on specials for thirds, that was a fourth
Gilbride implemented ......  
Reb8thVA : 9/12/2017 9:54 pm : link
The most prolific Giants offense that I've seen in my lifetime. Of course the predictable fade pattern near the end zone and the shot gun draw or the 25 yard pass on 3&1 were sometimes maddening, I miss the downfield attack. I'm not a fan of McAdoo's WCO. Even if we were playing better, I just don't find it enjoyable to watch.
Not even close  
HomerJones45 : 9/12/2017 10:47 pm : link

At a time when the NFL has done everything to help the offense and teams score 3 td's in two minutes, Kid Slick's 'uncomplicated' offense cant't score 3 td's a game.

Gilbride was run out of town and isn't coming back so this debate is academic. All we can do is hope Kid Slick can come with a plan to crack that magical 20 point barrier
Gilbride  
PaulBlakeTSU : 9/12/2017 11:23 pm : link
could design an incredibly high-powered offense and at times, the Giants used it to great effect.

But when the O-line went to shit and we couldn't run the ball and didn't have much time to throw, Gilbride's scheme didn't work. His plays took too long to develop and we had too much of a carousel at WR to develop any chemistry or mastery of it. Unfortunately, he didn't seem to want to scrap his plan and develop a new scheme the way a mind like Belichick would.

Given the current state of the offensive line and run game, I wouldn't want Gilbride back because his offense wouldn't work for the same reason he was asked to leave.

But if we had an awesome offensive line? Gilbride and Eli could do some major damage.
Gilbride was a vey good OC and very well thought of  
PatersonPlank : 9/12/2017 11:53 pm : link
He was the mastermind of the Houston Oilers spread with Moon, what an offense that was. Sure it was complicated and had to have the WR's and QB on the same page, plus like any scheme it needed pass blocking. However when they had it going it was almost unstoppable.

Much better than the 3 yard out crap we have now.
Over Gillbride's 7 year stint as OC,  
BH28 : 9/13/2017 1:07 am : link
Giants averaged 24.2 points/game.

McAdoo's two year stint as OC yielded 25.05 points/game.

Last year as HC the average was 19.4.

But comparing their capacities as OCs, Gillbride was not missed in 2014 and 2015. It was the defense that let us down.
Kevin Gilbiride is not THE reason for their offensive success  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/13/2017 1:14 am : link
the years he was here. That offense had all-pros playing on it.

I don't know why we attribute success or failure so heavily toward coaching. He's the same coach who once called 58 passing plays in a windstorm in a miserable losing effort.
How many rushing yards did we  
Hereditaryemperor : 9/13/2017 5:36 am : link
have vs Dallas?

Perkins looks like a joke. Give Darkwa the rock.
this is nostalgic  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/13/2017 7:14 am : link
revisionist history
Scoring offenses under Coughlin/Gilbride NFL overall  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 7:20 am : link
2006: 11th
2007: 14th (Superbowl)
2008: 3rd
2009: 8th
2010: 7th
2011: 9th (Superbowl)
2012: 6th
2013: 28th (Fired)
RE: Gilbride  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 7:24 am : link
In comment 13596703 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
could design an incredibly high-powered offense and at times, the Giants used it to great effect.

But when the O-line went to shit and we couldn't run the ball and didn't have much time to throw, Gilbride's scheme didn't work. His plays took too long to develop and we had too much of a carousel at WR to develop any chemistry or mastery of it. Unfortunately, he didn't seem to want to scrap his plan and develop a new scheme the way a mind like Belichick would.

Given the current state of the offensive line and run game, I wouldn't want Gilbride back because his offense wouldn't work for the same reason he was asked to leave.

But if we had an awesome offensive line? Gilbride and Eli could do some major damage.


Agreed
The O-line went to shit in 2012 and the dominoes fell.  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 8:23 am : link
That's what happened.

You can blame Coughlin, you can blame Gilbride, you can blame Eli (he's going to be the next one run off with pitchforks)...

But that's what happened. And it's still happening.
Its not unreasonable to say that Eli is better suited  
WideRight : 9/13/2017 8:29 am : link
for Gilbride than McAdoo. Eli has the arm and the disposition for a higher risk, higher reward system. His mobility and accuracy are suboptimal for dink and dunk. That doesn't mean Gilbride is better, but coaches should be responsible for gameplanning that optimizes personnel....
RE: Scoring offenses under Coughlin/Gilbride NFL overall  
Sean : 9/13/2017 8:30 am : link
In comment 13596780 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
2006: 11th
2007: 14th (Superbowl)
2008: 3rd
2009: 8th
2010: 7th
2011: 9th (Superbowl)
2012: 6th
2013: 28th (Fired)


Wow. Did not realize this.
RE: The O-line went to shit in 2012 and the dominoes fell.  
nygiants16 : 9/13/2017 8:34 am : link
In comment 13596845 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
That's what happened.

You can blame Coughlin, you can blame Gilbride, you can blame Eli (he's going to be the next one run off with pitchforks)...

But that's what happened. And it's still happening.


coughlin and gillbrides best cosching job was 2011, the oline was dog shit but had vets, the rushing attack was dog shit, the defense was mediocre, yet gillbride and coughlin kept the team going and together...

2012 and 2013 it fell apart
RE: RE: Scoring offenses under Coughlin/Gilbride NFL overall  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 8:36 am : link
In comment 13596850 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 13596780 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


2006: 11th
2007: 14th (Superbowl)
2008: 3rd
2009: 8th
2010: 7th
2011: 9th (Superbowl)
2012: 6th
2013: 28th (Fired)



Wow. Did not realize this.


I posted those numbers on every Gilbride bashing thread for years, but people still wanted him gone.
Sean, what Coughlin and Gilbride put together was an incredible system  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 8:38 am : link
that would still be going if we could have restocked the offensive line.

You want to know what I always defended them both so much? Because I knew the offense we were seeing was so special with Coughlin, Eli, and Gilbride.

They were Golden Years of NYG football, and like most things, nobody truly appreciates them until they're gone, and people realize the grass isn't always greener.
RE: RE: RE: Scoring offenses under Coughlin/Gilbride NFL overall  
Essex : 9/13/2017 8:55 am : link
In comment 13596860 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13596850 Sean said:


Quote:


In comment 13596780 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


2006: 11th
2007: 14th (Superbowl)
2008: 3rd
2009: 8th
2010: 7th
2011: 9th (Superbowl)
2012: 6th
2013: 28th (Fired)



Wow. Did not realize this.



I posted those numbers on every Gilbride bashing thread for years, but people still wanted him gone.

Wait, so a OF who had a good offensive line put up good numbers when he had an OL, and bad numbers when he didn't. That is all those numbers show. Gilbride was fine, but neither he nor coughlin had an answer when the OL stumbled. At least, McAdoo had some answers, the league seems to have figured it out, and we may have to change again, but Gillbride's offense needed an OL, which we didn't have. It was the right choice to find someone who could work with our personnel.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Scoring offenses under Coughlin/Gilbride NFL overall  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 8:58 am : link
In comment 13596870 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 13596860 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13596850 Sean said:


Quote:


In comment 13596780 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


2006: 11th
2007: 14th (Superbowl)
2008: 3rd
2009: 8th
2010: 7th
2011: 9th (Superbowl)
2012: 6th
2013: 28th (Fired)



Wow. Did not realize this.



I posted those numbers on every Gilbride bashing thread for years, but people still wanted him gone.


Wait, so a OF who had a good offensive line put up good numbers when he had an OL, and bad numbers when he didn't. That is all those numbers show. Gilbride was fine, but neither he nor coughlin had an answer when the OL stumbled. At least, McAdoo had some answers, the league seems to have figured it out, and we may have to change again, but Gillbride's offense needed an OL, which we didn't have. It was the right choice to find someone who could work with our personnel.


The O-line started to decline in 2009. By 2011 it sucked. I think we were what? 31st or 32nd in the league in rushing? They did alright that year if I recall correctly.
It wasn't an "incredible" system  
Essex : 9/13/2017 8:59 am : link
It worked well and was in the top third of the league with a good OL and a franchise QB with top notch receivers, right where you would expect it to be.
Coach or talent?  
WideRight : 9/13/2017 9:00 am : link
Major FAs, Burress & McKenzie along with good draft picks, Snee, Barber, Jacobs. WIthout the talent, the O crashed and coaches burned.

You can say the same thing about Spags & the D. Success requires good coaching and talent. Can you evaluate coaching in the absence of good talent?
Here's something a little more relevant to today:  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 9:02 am : link
2006: 11 games over 20 points, 4 over 30
2007: 10 games over 20 points, 6 over 30
2008: 11 games over 20 points, 5 over 30, 2 over 40
2009: 11 games over 20 points, 4 over 30, 2 over 40
2010: 10 games over 20 points, 4 over 30, 2 over 40
2011: 13 games over 20 points, 5 over 30
2012: 10 games over 20 points, 2 over 30, 3 over 40, 1 over 50
2013: 10 games over 20 points, 1 over 30 (Fired)

McAdoo's offense has never broken 30 points, and we all know about the magic number of 20 points.
Also Britt is cherry picking stats,  
Essex : 9/13/2017 9:06 am : link
Our offensive efficiency was 24th in 2012 and 12th in 2011. The offense since after Hurricane Sandy was abymal and change was needed.
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