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Pat Traina - Offensive Line article

ChathamMark : 9/12/2017 8:42 pm
Good read.
Link - ( New Window )
Not a bad read  
jcn56 : 9/12/2017 9:05 pm : link
A bit of hyperbole here:

Quote:
Then you have instances where some of the draft picks never made it out of training camp—see Eric Herman, Matt McCants and, more recently, Adam Bisnowaty. When you trade resources to get one of those guys who doesn’t make it out of training camp (Bisnowaty), then the whiff of that swing-and-miss can be felt five states over.


Five states over? A 6th and a 7th? A bit much, IMO.

Good to see that Pat has worked through IF's webhost issues.
That was a gruesome read  
dpinzow : 9/12/2017 9:11 pm : link
and hit straight to the heart of the matter
The truth hurts....  
greek13 : 9/12/2017 9:29 pm : link
This is an honest and accurate accounting. I truly am speechless
About the Hart Jerry combo - this offseason - not a real free agent added - only a charger cut -fluker
No pick till late in draft - hope and prayer are not strategies- especially for the trenches --- ugh
I  
AcidTest : 9/12/2017 9:31 pm : link
agree that Pat is a little hyperbolic about Bisnowaty, but other than that, her article is excellent. And depressing. Bench Jerry for Jones, and use Wheeler if Hart can't go on Monday night.
Same issue for several years.  
Giant John : 9/12/2017 9:44 pm : link
Some good Oline players have come out in the draft last several years but Giants have been outmaneuved at draft time. They here to understand this is a problem that has to be corrected. Bandaids are not a fix. Wake up Jerry! Your getting paid millions. Earn it!
This says it all:  
Doomster : 9/12/2017 10:28 pm : link
"Kareem McKenzie started to show signs of slowing down in the 2011 Super Bowl championship run. Rich Seubert and David Diehl, the latter whom many Giants fans wanted to run out of town on a rail, also saw their respective skills deteriorate.

Instead of preparing for the inevitable and ensuring they had replacements ready to step in to make the transition seamless, the Giants buried their heads in the sand"
Reese  
Marty866b : 9/12/2017 10:32 pm : link
Obviously has a hard time judging offensive line talent. How can you possibly head into the season after last year counting on Flowers and Hart?
I think the Giants need help evaluating  
Simms11 : 9/12/2017 10:46 pm : link
Oline talent. They have an extremely poor track record since Reese took over as GM. It's really amazing at how poorly they've drafted for the Oline!
RE: Reese  
Eric on Li : 9/12/2017 10:49 pm : link
In comment 13596671 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Obviously has a hard time judging offensive line talent. How can you possibly head into the season after last year counting on Flowers and Hart?


And Jerry. And Richburg bouncing back. And Pugh staying healthy.

I think a lot of the hate directed at Flowers gets overstated in the sense that in a bizarre way he has probably been their most reliable OL over the past 2 seasons - make no mistake he's part of the issue, but the larger part is the 4 players next to him who are just as big of an issue (without the talent/upside/toughness). It's unfathomable Reese didn't bring in 1 reliable starter over the past 2 seasons.
RE: This says it all:  
eclipz928 : 9/12/2017 11:42 pm : link
In comment 13596669 Doomster said:
Quote:
"Kareem McKenzie started to show signs of slowing down in the 2011 Super Bowl championship run. Rich Seubert and David Diehl, the latter whom many Giants fans wanted to run out of town on a rail, also saw their respective skills deteriorate.

Instead of preparing for the inevitable and ensuring they had replacements ready to step in to make the transition seamless, the Giants buried their heads in the sand"

Except that Traina doesn't really tell the whole story here.

Seubert was actually still playing pretty well before he destroyed his knee at the end of 2010 - it was 2nd major injury after breaking his leg a few years earlier. Giants had no choice but to cut him.

McKenzie's slumping production was seemingly diagnosed on time, which lead to the Giants drafting Beatty high in 2009. He went to LT and Diehl was moved to RT in 2012.

It's fair to say that Diehl played poorly and overstayed his welcome, but the Giants also picked up Sean Locklear in 2012 (not even mentioned in the article) who actually was an improvement over Diehl at RT when he replaced him briefly on the line. Unfortunately, Locklear broke his leg that year which effectively ended his career.

And Traina in this write-up completely disregards the fact that Chris Snee had a Pro Bowl season in 2012, and then completely fell off a cliff in his performance in 2013 due to injuries. Again, there was no "decline" here, it was another career that was cut abruptly short - he had to retire after that season.

Long story short, when you throw in how Shaun OHara left the league after his health issues, the Giants were left with an unusually difficult circumstance with the amount of turnover on their line due to so many injuries/retirements in such a short period between 2011 and 2013.

Reading this article and seeing so much focus on the Giants not retaining 6th and 7th round draft picks, and giving minimal acknowledgment to how injuries have hampered this unit, makes it hard to consider it an objective analysis.
Thanks Pat ... !  
short lease : 9/13/2017 12:04 am : link
(I posted this on another thread - it should have been here).

Does any player on OL really have anybody competing for their job? I would draft 5 OL in next years draft with our first 5 picks.

Forget about Flowers. I am not saying he can't develop into a good player somewhere on that line but, left tackle is to valuable a position to show this little improvement going into his 3rd season?

I am interested what his agent(s) are going to be looking for when it comes time to re-up. They have to know just because he is playing LT .... (will he be playing LT in 2 years - next year? Who knows?).

Thanks again Pat!
RE: I think the Giants need help evaluating  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/13/2017 12:47 am : link
In comment 13596676 Simms11 said:
Quote:
Oline talent. They have an extremely poor track record since Reese took over as GM. It's really amazing at how poorly they've drafted for the Oline!


They really didn't have a great record before that either, if we're being honest. It's chris snee and a lot of not so good.
RE: Reese  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/13/2017 12:50 am : link
In comment 13596671 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Obviously has a hard time judging offensive line talent. How can you possibly head into the season after last year counting on Flowers and Hart?


He can't win either way. They've done a lot to address it. They've spent significant money on priority free agents, and they get hurt and wash out. They spend high draft picks, they get hurt and/or don't pan out.
yikes -  
short lease : 9/13/2017 1:02 am : link
"To date, Beatty is also the only drafted offensive lineman out of those drafted since Reese became the general manager in 2007 to get a second contract."
watching other games across the league on Sunday  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 9/13/2017 6:53 am : link
this is a league wide problem. The college game is differing enough from the pro game that it is really hard to plug and play. So you are making a bigger projection on what a guy might become.

And it has seemed like the guy they really wanted over the lkast couple of years has been two or three draft picks out of reach.

The current offensive system is supposed to reduce the need for linemen to hold their blocks for long. But Sunday night there were guys just flat whiffing. Its really hard to watch.
RE: watching other games across the league on Sunday  
gmenatlarge : 9/13/2017 7:19 am : link
In comment 13596770 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
this is a league wide problem. The college game is differing enough from the pro game that it is really hard to plug and play. So you are making a bigger projection on what a guy might become.

And it has seemed like the guy they really wanted over the lkast couple of years has been two or three draft picks out of reach.

The current offensive system is supposed to reduce the need for linemen to hold their blocks for long. But Sunday night there were guys just flat whiffing. Its really hard to watch.


Well Tunsil could have been picked last year instead of Eli Apple, who has not impressed.
I am no expert  
DavidinBMNY : 9/13/2017 7:54 am : link
But I would sign the best veteran OL available righr now. You can not convince me there isn't am immediate upgrade availae for at least 1 player.
RE: That was a gruesome read  
The_Boss : 9/13/2017 8:00 am : link
In comment 13596584 dpinzow said:
Quote:
and hit straight to the heart of the matter


No kidding.
Holy hell.
Need better coaches  
5BowlsSoon : 9/13/2017 8:38 am : link
And guys who evaluate players. Clearly our drafts are mediocre or less.
"Eli Apple has not impressed"  
Bob in Newburgh : 9/13/2017 9:12 am : link
There is a place in this world for revisionist history.

That statement about Apple however, is a stupid lie asserted to support a preconceived notion.
I have to agree with Pat  
Triple "G" : 9/13/2017 9:21 am : link
I told my brother immediately afte the 2011 super bowl win that if Reese doesn't start to draft O-linemen in the 1st or more realistically 2nd and 3rd rounds of the upcoming DRAFTS (Multiple)that this team will not see another Super Bowl win for at least 10 years if not more.

Reese mad as statement around 5 years ago that never sat right with me he basically said that if there is a Superstar WR DB Or DE and I know we need O-lineman I will forgo the Lineman for the Superstar. That statement says it all. My counter to Reese is you can have all the Offensive Weapons in the league on your team and All thos Superstar Playmakers become Avg or below Avg players if you cant get the ball into their hands. Well we are seeing this play out in real time.

This game isn't won by the ODB's of the world, it is won in the trenches by the guys that bring the lunch pail to work with them everyday. It won by the unsung un noticed lolely ole Offensive Lineman who never hears his name on the Intercom unless he gets a penalty called on him or he is injured.

REESE it is too late to fix this mess you have made, so do us all a favor and go to management and resign, take the responsibility for your actions nstead of throwing another HC under the bus like you did to Coughlin. BTW your running out of Coaches to blame for your stupidity in the draft
I agree With Pat -- Heres Why  
Triple "G" : 9/13/2017 9:23 am : link
I told my brother immediately afte the 2011 super bowl win that if Reese doesn't start to draft O-linemen in the 1st or more realistically 2nd and 3rd rounds of the upcoming DRAFTS (Multiple)that this team will not see another Super Bowl win for at least 10 years if not more.

Reese mad as statement around 5 years ago that never sat right with me he basically said that if there is a Superstar WR DB Or DE and I know we need O-lineman I will forgo the Lineman for the Superstar. That statement says it all. My counter to Reese is you can have all the Offensive Weapons in the league on your team and All thos Superstar Playmakers become Avg or below Avg players if you cant get the ball into their hands. Well we are seeing this play out in real time.

This game isn't won by the ODB's of the world, it is won in the trenches by the guys that bring the lunch pail to work with them everyday. It won by the unsung un noticed lolely ole Offensive Lineman who never hears his name on the Intercom unless he gets a penalty called on him or he is injured.

REESE it is too late to fix this mess you have made, so do us all a favor and go to management and resign, take the responsibility for your actions nstead of throwing another HC under the bus like you did to Coughlin. BTW your running out of Coaches to blame for your stupidity in the draft
The Giants under Accorsi and Reese  
David B. : 9/13/2017 9:59 am : link
Have preferred to build the OL through FA. They had been loathe to spend high picks on OLs, but eventually took chances with Pugh, Richburg, and Flowers -- largely because they kept striking out in FA. And as we know, they didn't move up in the draft to get any of those three.

They've wasted a lot of mid and low round picks on OL hoping to find the next David Diehl -- a 5th round OG who became a good OLT. But that's kind of the "Tom Brady of OL draft picks," it doesn't happen often.

I personally never thought Pugh got enough of a look at OLT before they moved him to OG. As for Flowers, he's still really young, but may be destined to move to ORT or OG. I DON'T believe the Giants can feel good about ponying up top-10 OLT money for him next season even if they had the cap space to do it.

I don't have a problem in theory with building the OL through FA -- I get why they do that. It saves the growing pains you get with you OLs. The problem has been they are just not signing good FA OLs lately. Some of that is flat out misses, like Schwartz -- who sucked ass worse than Jerry, the scant few times he was healthy enough to get on the field. Baas was actually OK when he played healthy, but he too was injured a lot. Jerry is awful, but keeps playing. Fluker is SD's version of Flowers. How big is Hart's upside at OT? They day they took him, they said they envisioned him as a OG. Now they expect him to be a starting ORT?

Regardless, they are not getting McKenzie, O'Hara quality FAs of late. And this offseason, there just weren't any worth a damn to be had.

As I said, I don't mind the philosophy of building the OL through FA. But when that's not working out -- for whatever reason, I think the Giants can be faulted for:

Not considering trading for a decent OL. And it would cost a good, starting player and or picks. And you still have to find a team that has one they're willing to deal.

Not trading UP in the draft for OL prospects that were not considered "projects." Nothing against Eli Apple or Evan Engram -- they both look to be great picks, but there were a bunch of OTs that would be starting now if the Giants hadn't stubbornly stood pat. Guys like Boles and Ramczyk are starting already. They might have had Conklin if they'd traded up.










RE: Not a bad read  
Dinger : 9/13/2017 1:29 pm : link
In comment 13596579 jcn56 said:
Quote:
A bit of hyperbole here:



Quote:


Then you have instances where some of the draft picks never made it out of training camp—see Eric Herman, Matt McCants and, more recently, Adam Bisnowaty. When you trade resources to get one of those guys who doesn’t make it out of training camp (Bisnowaty), then the whiff of that swing-and-miss can be felt five states over.



Five states over? A 6th and a 7th? A bit much, IMO.

Good to see that Pat has worked through IF's webhost issues.


Yes it is a bit of hyperbole, but its true. While yes, 6th and 7th round picks mostly don't work out, you do need them as back ups or players you develop. When you take a flyer on a 6th round pick for a position which you are in desparate need of bodies and then release that player before the season starts it leads people to think you may not know what you are doing....
RE:  
gmenatlarge : 9/15/2017 9:21 am : link
In comment 13596897 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
There is a place in this world for revisionist history.

That statement about Apple however, is a stupid lie asserted to support a preconceived notion.


Name one analyst or sportswriter who has been impressed by this guy, he is the weak link in our secondary and could have been replaced by a lot of players. I was simply stating that we could have gotten a lot more mileage out of a good O-lineman in lieu of an average cornerback. And calling something a stupid lie because you don't agree is just childish and leads to these inane on-line battles.
When your argument is that you want someone to cite tv people  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/15/2017 2:25 pm : link
Who are impressed with him, it's a bad argument. CBs are not always year one stars. Janoris Jenkins and DRC are right there on your TV as proof of this.

And the legion of failed and slow-starting high drafted offensive linemen in the NFL is right there for you to counter your "OL would have been a better choice". And I don't even necessarily disagree with that, but it's highly debatable.

Apple can be the the weak link in a secondary with three all pros in it. That is not at all some kind of failure. And he plays an important role when your second best cornerback is past 30 and misses games every year.
RE: When your argument is that you want someone to cite tv people  
gmenatlarge : 9/15/2017 4:31 pm : link
In comment 13599762 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Who are impressed with him, it's a bad argument. CBs are not always year one stars. Janoris Jenkins and DRC are right there on your TV as proof of this.

And the legion of failed and slow-starting high drafted offensive linemen in the NFL is right there for you to counter your "OL would have been a better choice". And I don't even necessarily disagree with that, but it's highly debatable.

Apple can be the the weak link in a secondary with three all pros in it. That is not at all some kind of failure. And he plays an important role when your second best cornerback is past 30 and misses games every year.


First of all I was responding to the "person" who called my statement a "stupid lie" which is the kind of nonsense that makes this place annoying.

Second of all I never called Apple a "failure" that was your term I just am not impressed with him as a first round draft pick at this point, he has been OK with occasional flashes of above-average play. However on a team desperate for O-line help I just felt that Tunsil could have helped immensely and said so at the time, I don't think I was alone in this. It comes down to who would you rather have Tunsil or Apple, I'd take the lineman.
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