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Kim Jones Tweet on the Giants Scoring Offense - Ouch

Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/13/2017 8:09 am
Kimberly Jones& #8207;Verified account @KimJonesSports 1m1 minute ago

Most Consecutive Games Scoring Fewer Than 20 Points
Active Streaks, Including Playoffs:
#NYG: 7
#CHI: 2
#HOU: 2
#MIA: 2
#WAS: 2
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/13/2017 8:09 am : link
Kimberly Jones‏Verified account @KimJonesSports 49s50 seconds ago

Since 2014, #NYG are 1-11 when allowing 3+ sacks. #NYG are 22-15 when allowing fewer than 3 sacks.
Thank you, @NFLResearch.
.  
Danny Kanell : 9/13/2017 8:09 am : link
Wow
It's not even close  
The_Boss : 9/13/2017 8:12 am : link
Horrible.
all that offense and no line...  
GMAN4LIFE : 9/13/2017 8:13 am : link
like i said... 6-10 record
That's startling.  
Beezer : 9/13/2017 8:14 am : link
.
What  
AcidTest : 9/13/2017 8:17 am : link
Reese is discovering is that adding a seam stretching TE with WR speed won't defeat a cover 2 look if your opponent can get pressure and stuff the run with just four or five players.

The problem is that our QB is heavy footed, and so are most of our OL. We haven't scored 20 points in 7 consecutive games. And our offensive performance on Sunday was painfully inept. We won't move the ball until the OL is changed.
So  
blueblood'11 : 9/13/2017 8:17 am : link
The year prior to Mara declaring the offense needs to be fixed and he went out and hired McAdoo and basically forced Tom to discard Gilbride if this trend keeps up will Mara make the same declaration?

I mean how bad does it have to get before you start to hear the rumblings. This is even worse then before McAdoo was hired. He has weapons on this offense Gilbride's cupboard was thread bare at that point. McAdoo has not shown the ability to get the ball on a consistent basis to his playmakers. And lord knows he has plenty of them.
RE: all that offense and no line...  
The_Boss : 9/13/2017 8:19 am : link
In comment 13596824 GMAN4LIFE said:
Quote:
like i said... 6-10 record


Unless these guys up front miraculously improve or the staff schemes to cover their (many) limitations, I'm thinking that's a safe estimation of their final record. Perhaps 7-9. There are too many talented front 7's on the schedule. I think, at best, we could be 3-4 at the bye. My guess is we will be 2-5, instead.
So is it cool to be concerned yet?  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 8:19 am : link
Or are we still overreacting?
RE: So is it cool to be concerned yet?  
GMAN4LIFE : 9/13/2017 8:22 am : link
In comment 13596838 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Or are we still overreacting?



i dont know man. im always on the side of "relax", but it was horrible to see the line get beat and our defense just working overtime out there. Even with OBJ in the lineup, there is no time for eli to throw.

6-10
RE: So is it cool to be concerned yet?  
AnnapolisMike : 9/13/2017 8:22 am : link
In comment 13596838 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Or are we still overreacting?


Disappointed definitely. Let's see how the Detroit game goes before we get out the lifeboats.
Arguably the worst offense in the NFL.  
Boy Cord : 9/13/2017 8:23 am : link
Points are the most important metric. Can't run. Can't pass protect. So disappointing that week 1 looked like 2016.

11-5 was a nice band aid, and it satisfied a lot of people  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 8:25 am : link
who were playoff starved....

It's not sustainable like this, though.
No problem...  
trueblueinpw : 9/13/2017 8:30 am : link
McAdoo is intentionally holding back the offense so the defense can win us games. If Spags and the D would have shut out the Cowboys we win that game 3-0 and we're all still talking Super Bowl. Just need to play more complimentary football and play with heavier hands.
Not scoring 20 points  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/13/2017 8:32 am : link
in 7 games in today's NFL is embarrassing. Flat out embarrassing.
Is cool to be concerned  
blueblood'11 : 9/13/2017 8:32 am : link
Why not. After last years bedwetting,and then what we saw in preseason that had everyone talking already and fearing is this a continuation of last year, then to see what we saw Sunday night, which I don't think the result would have been much different if OBJ played or not, how can one not be concerned. Oh they say it's only one game fans react to quickly. Well, take a look at their schedule. I realize they have an elite defense but if your offense has trouble getting first downs that elite defense is going to eventually crack in this modern NFL.
RE: 11-5 was a nice band aid, and it satisfied a lot of people  
rebel yell : 9/13/2017 8:32 am : link
In comment 13596846 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
who were playoff starved....

It's not sustainable like this, though.

Yep. It was fool's gold. They blindly pressed forward without any plan for the OL, other than, they're young and they will improve. Sadly, hope isn't a strategy.
Look, the writing was on the wall last year....  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 8:34 am : link
Everybody and their brother knew, or should have known, we had zero shot going into Green Bay if we couldn't break 20 points. And really, that could have gone for any team we drew in the playoffs, so it wasn't like it was a bad draw or something.

We can't win in the playoffs if we can't score 20 points. No matter what path we take to get to the Superbowl, in at least one or two of the games we're going to need to score over 20.

We can't rely on throwing a slant to OBJ and expect him to break one over and over.

The offense as assembled had plenty of guys that should have been enough on Sunday to score more than 3 points. There is no excuse for the stagnant offense we saw on Sunday night after having a whole offseason to self scout and fix it. It looked actually WORSE than the end of last year.

I'm all for the bigger picture and giving McAdoo time in his role to grow. I wouldn't fire him no matter what happens this year.

That said, as a coach that was sold to us as being the savior of the offense and fixing Eli for his last run, well... I'm going to say false advertising.
that's what happens withpourous ol  
micky : 9/13/2017 8:34 am : link
a lot people poo-poo'd it or passed it off as "not as important" and band it wit other personnel skill positions, ie wr, te's, fb, etc.

it all starts up front ol, dl...which have been told on here no it doesn't.

Get ol up to efficient, productive play with a good mixture of run blocking and pass blocking, and you'll see a world of difference to this team..plus, importantly get your qb's confidence back to say the least
Too bad she didn't post last year's record  
JohnB : 9/13/2017 8:37 am : link
11-5

A win is a win is a win. I'll willing to bet that almost every team in the NFL would trade their record for the Giants record.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
This team, right now ...  
Beezer : 9/13/2017 8:51 am : link
... and yes, I realize this is a big of a stretch, but it has a 1970s Giants feel to it.

1979, 0-9 start with an anemic offense and solid defense.

Lost 4 in a row at one point, scoring 10 points total in those games (lost 24-7, 27-0, 10-0 and 9-3).

Yes. That was a 4-game average of 2.5 points a game.


RE: RE: So is it cool to be concerned yet?  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/13/2017 8:53 am : link
In comment 13596841 GMAN4LIFE said:
Quote:
In comment 13596838 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Or are we still overreacting?




i dont know man. im always on the side of "relax", but it was horrible to see the line get beat and our defense just working overtime out there. Even with OBJ in the lineup, there is no time for eli to throw.

6-10

Eli acting like he has no time and Eli actually having no time are two different things. There were multiple occasions where Eli had ample time and still hurried/checked down as though the pass rush was breathing down his neck.
This is what Ive been  
area junc : 9/13/2017 8:55 am : link
talking about with McAdoo. He is incompetent. Im shocked at the pass many are giving him. I dont care if he had some favorable rankings over the years too (when Tom was here). The offense sucked then too.
Geez you wake up and come to this site you'd think we were 0-11  
Stu11 : 9/13/2017 8:56 am : link
not 0-1. Everybody relax and lets evaluate the team after a few games where are friggen franchise player actually gets out on the field.
We all know that  
mattlawson : 9/13/2017 9:00 am : link
How many different ways are there to say the same thing. When you say we haven't scored more than 20 points since before last Thanksgiving it's essentially saying the same thing

Sad any way you put it.
If they score some points and get a win Monday  
Tittle 9 20 64 : 9/13/2017 9:02 am : link
most of this should go away. If not, a locker room divide isn't out of the question!
RE: Too bad she didn't post last year's record  
chuckydee9 : 9/13/2017 9:06 am : link
In comment 13596861 JohnB said:
Quote:
11-5

A win is a win is a win. I'll willing to bet that almost every team in the NFL would trade their record for the Giants record.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."


Only dumb asses who don't know how to analyze statistic would say that.. Its a science and Millions are made daily by insurance companies, casinos and almost every business that relies on future projections.. Only dumbasses who suck at analyzing the statistics would say that..
There are no wrong statistics just that are they relevant and important? In this case.. when you can't score 20 points in todays NFL.. its very relevant.. and like always has been scoring points in itself is very important..
RE: We all know that  
area junc : 9/13/2017 9:14 am : link
In comment 13596876 mattlawson said:
Quote:
How many different ways are there to say the same thing. When you say we haven't scored more than 20 points since before last Thanksgiving it's essentially saying the same thing

Sad any way you put it.


Yes but this puts it into context. We are significantly more inept than any other pro football offense. And this is with one of the best offensive players in the league + a $20m QB. There is no excuse, McAdoo is in over his head and we made a big mistake.
The Giants have  
rocco8112 : 9/13/2017 9:16 am : link
not been able to run the ball for years. That problem pre-dates McAdoo. But, with the exception of 2013 the Giants have been good to great on offense throughout the Eli era.

McAdoo took over as coach last year and the Offense collapsed. Now,there has been only one game so far, but it reaffirmed our biggest fear about the team.

I do believe that it is more the Jimmy and Joe's rather than X's O's, but the biggest change was at HC. With him at the helm the Giants offense is one of the worst in the NFL. It is certainly time to be concerned and it is highly possible this coach does not have what it takes. I am not hoping for this, but it is a worry.

If the O shits the bed Monday night, it is time to hit the panic button.
RE: RE: Too bad she didn't post last year's record  
nygiants16 : 9/13/2017 9:16 am : link
In comment 13596882 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
In comment 13596861 JohnB said:


Quote:


11-5

A win is a win is a win. I'll willing to bet that almost every team in the NFL would trade their record for the Giants record.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."



Only dumb asses who don't know how to analyze statistic would say that.. Its a science and Millions are made daily by insurance companies, casinos and almost every business that relies on future projections.. Only dumbasses who suck at analyzing the statistics would say that..
There are no wrong statistics just that are they relevant and important? In this case.. when you can't score 20 points in todays NFL.. its very relevant.. and like always has been scoring points in itself is very important..




i am sorry i thought the only stat that mattered was wins and losses?

so if the offense was putting up 30 a game but were 5-11 mcadoo would be ok?
Wow  
OBJRoyal : 9/13/2017 9:17 am : link
That is crazy and goes to show how truly bad the offense has been. Those numbers aren't even close...
Again - 2015's offense should have had even better numbers  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 9:18 am : link
Their defense was putrid - instead of hanging them out to dry with the 'well, they only needed to get one stop' - when it was working they should have scored more.

A bad defense gave them ample opportunity. Here - a bad offense is shielded by a strong defense, giving them less opportunity - and hurting their metrics further.

And ironically - resulting in more wins. Go figure.
RE: RE: RE: Too bad she didn't post last year's record  
rocco8112 : 9/13/2017 9:19 am : link
In comment 13596906 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13596882 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


In comment 13596861 JohnB said:


Quote:


11-5

A win is a win is a win. I'll willing to bet that almost every team in the NFL would trade their record for the Giants record.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."



Only dumb asses who don't know how to analyze statistic would say that.. Its a science and Millions are made daily by insurance companies, casinos and almost every business that relies on future projections.. Only dumbasses who suck at analyzing the statistics would say that..
There are no wrong statistics just that are they relevant and important? In this case.. when you can't score 20 points in todays NFL.. its very relevant.. and like always has been scoring points in itself is very important..





i am sorry i thought the only stat that mattered was wins and losses?

so if the offense was putting up 30 a game but were 5-11 mcadoo would be ok?


We all watch the team. I love watching this defense very much, but there is no doubt the D carried the team last year and while McAdoo is HC and the buck stops with him, Spags and the talent infusion is what makes the D great. Since McAdoo became HC and play caller this offense has declined to the point of being perhaps bottom three in the NFL.

Not good.
RE: Again - 2015's offense should have had even better numbers  
rocco8112 : 9/13/2017 9:22 am : link
In comment 13596912 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Their defense was putrid - instead of hanging them out to dry with the 'well, they only needed to get one stop' - when it was working they should have scored more.

A bad defense gave them ample opportunity. Here - a bad offense is shielded by a strong defense, giving them less opportunity - and hurting their metrics further.

And ironically - resulting in more wins. Go figure.


Defense wins, imagine the Giants had a d near this good for most of Eli's career? It is almost a tragic story how the Giants now have an elite Defense and the Offense cant score or even run the ball to keep TOP and give the D a rest.



but again they were 11-5?  
nygiants16 : 9/13/2017 9:23 am : link
so does that mean belichek is not considered a hall of fame coach because he won with brady?

if coughlin was the head coach last year everyone would be praising him...
Offense  
WillVAB : 9/13/2017 9:25 am : link
McAdoo is responsible for the team, not just the offense. They need to get rid of Sullivan and bring in an OC who adds value. Sullivan brings absolutely nothing to the table.

The OL is the problem but there's nothing to do at this point. Next year's FA's look weak. Reese better hit OL hard in the draft.
RE: RE: RE: Too bad she didn't post last year's record  
chuckydee9 : 9/13/2017 9:25 am : link
In comment 13596906 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13596882 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


In comment 13596861 JohnB said:


Quote:


11-5

A win is a win is a win. I'll willing to bet that almost every team in the NFL would trade their record for the Giants record.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."



Only dumb asses who don't know how to analyze statistic would say that.. Its a science and Millions are made daily by insurance companies, casinos and almost every business that relies on future projections.. Only dumbasses who suck at analyzing the statistics would say that..
There are no wrong statistics just that are they relevant and important? In this case.. when you can't score 20 points in todays NFL.. its very relevant.. and like always has been scoring points in itself is very important..





i am sorry i thought the only stat that mattered was wins and losses?

so if the offense was putting up 30 a game but were 5-11 mcadoo would be ok?


If you analyze the data or statistics properly you would know what is wrong if the offense was scoring 30 points per game and we were losing 11 games a season.. As I said analyze the data..

And I am not blaming BM to the point of lets fire him.. but more like things are going well and we shouldn't give him 2 more years unless we see improvement.. There is a lot more blame for JR in here.. His team has missed the playoffs 4 of the last 5, 7 of the last 9.. 5+ years of having a bad OL.. Some of us were able to analyze the stats from last year and predict the OL would be bad.. and that Fluker and Ellison aren't going to solve the problem.. Too bad JR couldn't see it..
RE: RE: Again - 2015's offense should have had even better numbers  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 9:26 am : link
In comment 13596919 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
In comment 13596912 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Their defense was putrid - instead of hanging them out to dry with the 'well, they only needed to get one stop' - when it was working they should have scored more.

A bad defense gave them ample opportunity. Here - a bad offense is shielded by a strong defense, giving them less opportunity - and hurting their metrics further.

And ironically - resulting in more wins. Go figure.



Defense wins, imagine the Giants had a d near this good for most of Eli's career? It is almost a tragic story how the Giants now have an elite Defense and the Offense cant score or even run the ball to keep TOP and give the D a rest.




Who do you think won those two SBs, the offense by itself?

Do you remember what offensive ranking the Patriots had offensively in 2007?

Don't kid yourself - the Giants had an excellent defense in both title runs, this wasn't just the Eli and Coughlin show.
Half the QBs in the league work behind offensive lines that are  
Mark C : 9/13/2017 9:27 am : link
either just as bad, or nearly as bad, as this one.

To continue beating this drum about the OL is getting absurd. Eli, at this point in his career, sucks. Am I saying he should be benched for Geno or Webb in week 2? Hell no. But I am saying that you could make a list of half the QBs in the league who could at least do SOMETHING with this offense. Ben Roethlesberger would've put up twenty points in Dallas last week, and Eli's been better than him for most of his career.

Now, I'm fully aware that the last time I said Eli sucks (10 years ago, right after the Viking game), the team went on to win a Super Bowl. And maybe that's part of the problem: Nobody wants to make the mistake of counting Eli out again. But he's almost forty, and this ineptitude has gone on far too long. If this shit doesn't change, it's time to have an open competition for starting QB in 2018.
I  
afann : 9/13/2017 9:30 am : link
Blame the boat trip
You know what....Dallas didn't score 20 either  
AnnapolisMike : 9/13/2017 9:31 am : link
The Giants Defense is really good. If the offense can get moving this is going to be a good team. If we are sitting here in 2 more weeks and the Giants have 2-3 losses and are averaging 15 points or less.....then they are screwed.
RE: Half the QBs in the league work behind offensive lines that are  
NorwoodWideRight : 9/13/2017 9:33 am : link
In comment 13596937 Mark C said:
Quote:
either just as bad, or nearly as bad, as this one.

To continue beating this drum about the OL is getting absurd. Eli, at this point in his career, sucks. Am I saying he should be benched for Geno or Webb in week 2? Hell no. But I am saying that you could make a list of half the QBs in the league who could at least do SOMETHING with this offense. Ben Roethlesberger would've put up twenty points in Dallas last week, and Eli's been better than him for most of his career.

Now, I'm fully aware that the last time I said Eli sucks (10 years ago, right after the Viking game), the team went on to win a Super Bowl. And maybe that's part of the problem: Nobody wants to make the mistake of counting Eli out again. But he's almost forty, and this ineptitude has gone on far too long. If this shit doesn't change, it's time to have an open competition for starting QB in 2018.


Prepare to get slammed by blind Eli apologists who refuse to see that there is a real problem aside from the OL and RB. These people will say that you know nothing about how football works and spit out statements like 'even Brady couldn't operate behind this line.'
Kim seems all in on McAdoo  
arniefez : 9/13/2017 9:34 am : link
Interesting to see this play out. She's been around the Giants a long time. I don't remember her ever going in a direction like this. She's not working for a shock outlet and she's far from a shock reporter. Kind of seems the wind around the Giants is blowing in this direction. Stapleton had a tweet in a similar direction yesterday. It's not out of character for the Giants to leak to their favorite reporters on organization members they're trying to send a message to. I wonder if McAdoo has some issues with the players he's been given. It's not a fight he's going to win when the owners are picking the players.
How is Roethlisberger  
PaulBlakeTSU : 9/13/2017 9:40 am : link
putting up 20? Who is he throwing to when the defense is getting pressure AND stopping the run with four down linemen and seven players in coverage?

Perhaps you could say that Ben would stand taller in the pocket for longer than Eli and would take the hits giving receivers an extra half second to get open. But if Ben did that behind this line, he'd more likely miss half the season.

I dont think Odell  
area junc : 9/13/2017 9:41 am : link
likes McAdoo either. Always seemed to be tension there.
The only way this offense scores,  
Doomster : 9/13/2017 9:44 am : link
is three ways.....

The defense gives the offense a short field, and chances are it's turned into a fg....

Obj takes a 5 yard catch to the house....

The Giants have a mistake free series....

The last one is the most important, because anyone who is a Giant fan, sees this team continuously shoot themselves in the foot, offensively.....a fumble, an interception, a dropped ball, poor execution of a play, bad play call, an injury(no depth), a penalty(motion, holding, and the proverbial delay of game), etc.

We all know the Giants don't have an adequate OL.....we all know they lack weapons.....we all know the Eli of 2011 is a distant memory.....

But you add lack of execution to the mix, and is there any doubt why this offense can't score 20 points in a game? And it takes it's ugly form in cycles throughout the season....one game it's the receivers.....one game it's the quarterback....one game it's the OL....many games it's a combination of the three.....

Best example, is the Green Bay Playoff game......the line played ok.....Eli looked like he was in a zone.....but the receivers dropped crucial balls, and an injury to DRC led to the Defenses' collapse....that Hail Mary would have had less of a chance with him back there.....

This offense basically has to play mistake free, for it too function....Why? Because our scoring drives take too many plays, because of too many short passes and lack of YAC....and the the more plays it takes to score, it's inevitable that one of the elements of the offense is going to screw up and end the drive...

I harped on all the games this team had played without scoring 20 points, since the end of last season......I thought OBj would play.....I mean, he was running in practice......since the injury happened he wasn't in a boot.....we thought he would play.....and even if he didn't, we had these new weapons.....We had plenty of time to create a game plan if OBj couldn't go.....We had Marshall.....Double E was going to embarrass LBers trying to cover him....we had TE's that could block plus a FB.....Perkins was going to run better with a football than Jennings could do with a Mirror Ball......we had Vereen back....SS was going to take that next step.....

Instead, our running game consisted of one 12 yard run, and nine runs for 18 yards(yes folks, even a second grader can figure that out it's 2 yds per, with the calculators they use)....

Marshall was none existent, in the sense that he should have stepped up his game with OBj out.....

Our TE's did not block well, and for some reason still do not chip block to help the Tackles....

Vereen looked slow, but he was the man in that last drive that took 3 completions to net a first down...

SS? Is it the Patterns he runs, or is it him, that makes 3rd down catches short of first downs, or the way he catches balls where he just does not get yards after the catch?

We fantasized an OBj impact from Double E and it didn't happen....

And Eli.....I have constantly defended the guy....yes, he made some great plays where he should have been sacked, and side stepped to freedom.....he had a high completion percentage......but he missed some big throws on third down, that he should have made.....

This offense goes as far as Eli can take them....I think he is frustrated with this offense.....why dink passes at the end of a game when you need two scores? To pad the stats?

There is no doubt he has lost confidence in his OL....a line that can't pass block without pressure, and a line that can't run block, WHEN IT HAS TO! Oh yes, you will get your occasional 12 yard burst by Darkwa or someone else....but for the most part, Eli will be looking at second and long or third and long after a failed run.....he does not have a Tiki, or Bradshaw, or Jacobs.....instead he has Perkins, Darkwa, Gallman, Vereen......

And what about OBj? He knows his stock has gone up after this game.....those new weapons are only useful, if he is out there and can provide a diversion, to get them into the flow of the offense......

Will that ankle take a little longer to heal, than normal? Will his agent take advantage of this situation and press Reese into a corner? We all know both sides are looking for that edge in contract negotiations, and this is a huge one for OBj and company, if he can't play on Monday, and this offense falls on it's face again....

And how about the defense? Think they won't get pissed, creating dissension between offense and defense, that they have to carry this team again this season? This is a good defense, not a great one, as some seem to think....Dak did not have a good game.....he missed some easy throws....if he was on, the bloodshed could have been worse....

It is up to Mac and Sullivan to come up with a better game plan, especially if OBj can't play or is limited....an 0-2 start going into Philly? It could get even more ugly around here....
RE: How is Roethlisberger  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 9:47 am : link
In comment 13596965 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
putting up 20? Who is he throwing to when the defense is getting pressure AND stopping the run with four down linemen and seven players in coverage?

Perhaps you could say that Ben would stand taller in the pocket for longer than Eli and would take the hits giving receivers an extra half second to get open. But if Ben did that behind this line, he'd more likely miss half the season.


He moves around in the pocket better than Eli, albeit not as well as he did earlier in his career. A lot of times this past weekend he was buying time, but they came very close to losing to Cleveland.
Hart's injury gives them an excuse to make changes. Will they?  
Ivan15 : 9/13/2017 9:48 am : link
Jones may very well be the future starting center. I don't think he is a RG but what the hell.

Jerry may be a better RT than Fluker or Hart.

At his current weight, Wheeler is a LT, not a RT.
Honestly Eli cant carry Big Bens jock  
area junc : 9/13/2017 9:51 am : link
anymore. Rivers is also still good. Eli is the worst of the 3 at this point in time.
Ivan I think Jones to LG  
area junc : 9/13/2017 9:53 am : link
and Pugh to RT makes most sense. Pugh is supposed to be versatile, that was part of the reasoning for picking him. So take advantage of it. Like we used to do with Diehl.
I think OBJ is part of the  
jvm52106 : 9/13/2017 9:53 am : link
problem. Before firing off at me, hear me out. I actually think some of what he has done on the field (one hand catch for a TD, taking a crappy slant and just beating guys to top speed and scoring) has actually given the Giants false hope or belief that they have a top flight offense. In reality, those are 100% individual accomplishments, not something the Offense was designed for or based off a great team scheme. You can't count on that stuff game in and game out. You can't win consistently in the NFL from the outside.

OBJ is basically deodorant over a need for a shower. Sooner or later the deodorant can't mask that smell. The Giants will be a pitiful offense because they believe they have the parts around the superstar engine. Problem is, that is not really true. OBJ makes some great plays, game changing plays. But, he alone can't change the way the offense is and cannot take over a game. This isn't a pitcher in baseball who can overcome poor defense by striking people out. Who can overcome a pathetic scoring offense by shutting out the opponent.

OBJ is never going to be the Force behind the success. He can be exploit it, take it up a notch but without an oline, a QB , running game going too, he will be a guy who makes some plays, looks really good at times but just can't win games by himself.

If we had a RB who could make holes for himself then we have a chance to overcome an oline issue. If we had a QB who can move well, run for first downs and escape pressure then we can overcome a poor line. If we had TE's who could block like tackles (other teams tackles, not like ours block) then we could overcome a poor line. A WR outside cannot overcome a poor line and immobile QB and no running game!
With this OL...Eli is...  
silverfox : 9/13/2017 9:59 am : link
...the one of the last QBs you want to see in the backfield. Its a combination that is not sustainable.
RE: Again - 2015's offense should have had even better numbers  
HomerJones45 : 9/13/2017 10:04 am : link
In comment 13596912 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Their defense was putrid - instead of hanging them out to dry with the 'well, they only needed to get one stop' - when it was working they should have scored more.

A bad defense gave them ample opportunity. Here - a bad offense is shielded by a strong defense, giving them less opportunity - and hurting their metrics further.

And ironically - resulting in more wins. Go figure.
you're really struggling and your reasoning is flat out ridiculous. Face it, the offensive genius and his Chinese buffet menu aren't getting it done.
There's no struggling at all - Coughlin stubbornly lost games  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 10:08 am : link
because he flat out refused to admit his defense wasn't good enough to get stops. He just kept putting them out there at the end of games, with the same results.

That - some bad clock management blunders, and an injury record that had gone on too far and too long - were the reasons he was dismissed.

McAdoo went out and won games last year that would have been lost otherwise because he played to the team's strength, the defense. That conservative approach meant smaller returns for the team's O.

The offense certainly has it's issues - and they're entirely on McAdoo, both as HC and with his responsibility for playcalling/offensive design. But let's not pretend that a part of the meager returns on O aren't due to the fact that the D is stronger now and has more of the burden put onto it to succeed. That's how it should be, given the amount of cap resources plied into the D - and how it should have been when the situation was reversed and the offense was the star of the show.
RE: The only way this offense scores,  
chuckydee9 : 9/13/2017 10:10 am : link
In comment 13596975 Doomster said:
Quote:
is three ways.....

The defense gives the offense a short field, and chances are it's turned into a fg....

Obj takes a 5 yard catch to the house....

The Giants have a mistake free series....

The last one is the most important, because anyone who is a Giant fan, sees this team continuously shoot themselves in the foot, offensively.....a fumble, an interception, a dropped ball, poor execution of a play, bad play call, an injury(no depth), a penalty(motion, holding, and the proverbial delay of game), etc.

We all know the Giants don't have an adequate OL.....we all know they lack weapons.....we all know the Eli of 2011 is a distant memory.....

But you add lack of execution to the mix, and is there any doubt why this offense can't score 20 points in a game? And it takes it's ugly form in cycles throughout the season....one game it's the receivers.....one game it's the quarterback....one game it's the OL....many games it's a combination of the three.....

Best example, is the Green Bay Playoff game......the line played ok.....Eli looked like he was in a zone.....but the receivers dropped crucial balls, and an injury to DRC led to the Defenses' collapse....that Hail Mary would have had less of a chance with him back there.....

This offense basically has to play mistake free, for it too function....Why? Because our scoring drives take too many plays, because of too many short passes and lack of YAC....and the the more plays it takes to score, it's inevitable that one of the elements of the offense is going to screw up and end the drive...

I harped on all the games this team had played without scoring 20 points, since the end of last season......I thought OBj would play.....I mean, he was running in practice......since the injury happened he wasn't in a boot.....we thought he would play.....and even if he didn't, we had these new weapons.....We had plenty of time to create a game plan if OBj couldn't go.....We had Marshall.....Double E was going to embarrass LBers trying to cover him....we had TE's that could block plus a FB.....Perkins was going to run better with a football than Jennings could do with a Mirror Ball......we had Vereen back....SS was going to take that next step.....

Instead, our running game consisted of one 12 yard run, and nine runs for 18 yards(yes folks, even a second grader can figure that out it's 2 yds per, with the calculators they use)....

Marshall was none existent, in the sense that he should have stepped up his game with OBj out.....

Our TE's did not block well, and for some reason still do not chip block to help the Tackles....

Vereen looked slow, but he was the man in that last drive that took 3 completions to net a first down...

SS? Is it the Patterns he runs, or is it him, that makes 3rd down catches short of first downs, or the way he catches balls where he just does not get yards after the catch?

We fantasized an OBj impact from Double E and it didn't happen....

And Eli.....I have constantly defended the guy....yes, he made some great plays where he should have been sacked, and side stepped to freedom.....he had a high completion percentage......but he missed some big throws on third down, that he should have made.....

This offense goes as far as Eli can take them....I think he is frustrated with this offense.....why dink passes at the end of a game when you need two scores? To pad the stats?

There is no doubt he has lost confidence in his OL....a line that can't pass block without pressure, and a line that can't run block, WHEN IT HAS TO! Oh yes, you will get your occasional 12 yard burst by Darkwa or someone else....but for the most part, Eli will be looking at second and long or third and long after a failed run.....he does not have a Tiki, or Bradshaw, or Jacobs.....instead he has Perkins, Darkwa, Gallman, Vereen......

And what about OBj? He knows his stock has gone up after this game.....those new weapons are only useful, if he is out there and can provide a diversion, to get them into the flow of the offense......

Will that ankle take a little longer to heal, than normal? Will his agent take advantage of this situation and press Reese into a corner? We all know both sides are looking for that edge in contract negotiations, and this is a huge one for OBj and company, if he can't play on Monday, and this offense falls on it's face again....

And how about the defense? Think they won't get pissed, creating dissension between offense and defense, that they have to carry this team again this season? This is a good defense, not a great one, as some seem to think....Dak did not have a good game.....he missed some easy throws....if he was on, the bloodshed could have been worse....

It is up to Mac and Sullivan to come up with a better game plan, especially if OBj can't play or is limited....an 0-2 start going into Philly? It could get even more ugly around here....


I agree with almost everything you said.. The only thing I want to add is that every DL on the dallas team is far less talented and capable than the ones in Philly.. God I hope the Eagles don't kill Eli on that day.. I'll be happy if Eli survives that game..
RE: There's no struggling at all - Coughlin stubbornly lost games  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 10:11 am : link
In comment 13597022 jcn56 said:
Quote:
because he flat out refused to admit his defense wasn't good enough to get stops. He just kept putting them out there at the end of games, with the same results.


In 2015 the Giants had the lead or were tied in the final 2 minutes of the game like 6 times!

What was he supposed to do? You say he "stubbornly" trotted them out to lose games.

Are you serious? We needed to score to tie or take the lead on offense, we weren't able to run the clock out, we needed to score! Mainly because the defense had been so sorry all game were were always trying to keep pace.

I don't know what you expected the guy to do.
6 times we tied or took the lead on offense in the final two minutes  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 10:18 am : link
of games we lost, I wanted to clarify.
RE: RE: There's no struggling at all - Coughlin stubbornly lost games  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 10:22 am : link
In comment 13597024 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13597022 jcn56 said:


Quote:


because he flat out refused to admit his defense wasn't good enough to get stops. He just kept putting them out there at the end of games, with the same results.



In 2015 the Giants had the lead or were tied in the final 2 minutes of the game like 6 times!

What was he supposed to do? You say he "stubbornly" trotted them out to lose games.

Are you serious? We needed to score to tie or take the lead on offense, we weren't able to run the clock out, we needed to score! Mainly because the defense had been so sorry all game were were always trying to keep pace.

I don't know what you expected the guy to do.


I expected him to play to his strength - the offense.

I expected that he not be as conservative offensively, settle for field goals when he knew that a small margin wasn't going to be enough to win with a porous defense. He didn't.

I expected that clock be managed such that we spend as much time as possible when we had the ball, and not make that terrible defense spend any more time on the field than absolutely necessary. He didn't.

He was dealt an unfair hand to some extent, and he had his share of bad luck. But more often than not, he played not to lose, by the handbook, not putting enough pressure on the offense and hoping that the defense would come up with a stop that everyone knew wasn't coming.
RE: RE: RE: There's no struggling at all - Coughlin stubbornly lost games  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 10:27 am : link
In comment 13597045 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13597024 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13597022 jcn56 said:


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because he flat out refused to admit his defense wasn't good enough to get stops. He just kept putting them out there at the end of games, with the same results.



In 2015 the Giants had the lead or were tied in the final 2 minutes of the game like 6 times!

What was he supposed to do? You say he "stubbornly" trotted them out to lose games.

Are you serious? We needed to score to tie or take the lead on offense, we weren't able to run the clock out, we needed to score! Mainly because the defense had been so sorry all game were were always trying to keep pace.

I don't know what you expected the guy to do.



I expected him to play to his strength - the offense.

I expected that he not be as conservative offensively, settle for field goals when he knew that a small margin wasn't going to be enough to win with a porous defense. He didn't.

I expected that clock be managed such that we spend as much time as possible when we had the ball, and not make that terrible defense spend any more time on the field than absolutely necessary. He didn't.

He was dealt an unfair hand to some extent, and he had his share of bad luck. But more often than not, he played not to lose, by the handbook, not putting enough pressure on the offense and hoping that the defense would come up with a stop that everyone knew wasn't coming.


Again, the team was losing heading into the final 2 minutes of six games that we lost, and the offense came back to tie or take the lead in all of them.

You're perfect scenario is that he would have both run the clock out and have the offense score with no time left on the clock, but that's not realistic. You've got to score.

If he'd have try to simultaneously tried to run out the clock attempting to score, you'd be killing him wondering why were were running on 1st and/or 2nd down and the drive sputtering and us losing with our offense on the field while the other team was kneeling in victory.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Whatever, what's done is done.
Do you remember this game?  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 10:31 am : link
That's a game where that putrid defense actually helped the team - and what good did it do them?

Quote:
The Cowboys won thanks to the Giants' terrible late-game decisions
27
Poor execution and even worse game management allowed the Giants to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory against the Cowboys.

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/9/14/9321427/giants-cowboys-nfl-eli-manning-tony-romo-tom-coughlin - ( New Window )
RE: Do you remember this game?  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 10:32 am : link
In comment 13597065 jcn56 said:
Quote:
That's a game where that putrid defense actually helped the team - and what good did it do them?



Quote:


The Cowboys won thanks to the Giants' terrible late-game decisions
27
Poor execution and even worse game management allowed the Giants to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory against the Cowboys.

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/9/14/9321427/giants-cowboys-nfl-eli-manning-tony-romo-tom-coughlin - ( New Window )


That was a bad decision, and yes I remember it.
RE: So is it cool to be concerned yet?  
Mike from Ohio : 9/13/2017 10:33 am : link
In comment 13596838 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Or are we still overreacting?


Way too early. You are evaluating the offense based only on one game. What happened last year doesn't matter and the preseason is pretend so that doesn't matter either. Our streak of not scoring 20 points is really just at 1.

At least that is what I read here on BBI all pre-season.
RE: RE: RE: Again - 2015's offense should have had even better numbers  
rocco8112 : 9/13/2017 10:52 am : link
In comment 13596936 jcn56 said:
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In comment 13596919 rocco8112 said:


Quote:


In comment 13596912 jcn56 said:


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Their defense was putrid - instead of hanging them out to dry with the 'well, they only needed to get one stop' - when it was working they should have scored more.

A bad defense gave them ample opportunity. Here - a bad offense is shielded by a strong defense, giving them less opportunity - and hurting their metrics further.

And ironically - resulting in more wins. Go figure.



Defense wins, imagine the Giants had a d near this good for most of Eli's career? It is almost a tragic story how the Giants now have an elite Defense and the Offense cant score or even run the ball to keep TOP and give the D a rest.






Who do you think won those two SBs, the offense by itself?

Do you remember what offensive ranking the Patriots had offensively in 2007?

Don't kid yourself - the Giants had an excellent defense in both title runs, this wasn't just the Eli and Coughlin show.


Oh yes, particularly 2007 that D was legit and made huge stops. 2011 I felt the offense carried the squad more and the D would break down late. They picked up steam in the stretch run in '11 though. Can not win without good defenses.

My argument would be that the offense was by far the strength of the team for most seasons though. To me one of the flaws of the TC era was the inability to build a consistent year to year strong defense. Then there were years like 2009 and 2015 were the defense was horrific and helped tank the season.

I love good defense and prefer a football built with a stout playmaking D and power run game. I do think it is too bad that now it seems the Giants have an elite defensive unit and the Offense sucks royally.
RE: RE: Half the QBs in the league work behind offensive lines that are  
rocco8112 : 9/13/2017 10:54 am : link
In comment 13596950 NorwoodWideRight said:
Quote:
In comment 13596937 Mark C said:


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either just as bad, or nearly as bad, as this one.

To continue beating this drum about the OL is getting absurd. Eli, at this point in his career, sucks. Am I saying he should be benched for Geno or Webb in week 2? Hell no. But I am saying that you could make a list of half the QBs in the league who could at least do SOMETHING with this offense. Ben Roethlesberger would've put up twenty points in Dallas last week, and Eli's been better than him for most of his career.

Now, I'm fully aware that the last time I said Eli sucks (10 years ago, right after the Viking game), the team went on to win a Super Bowl. And maybe that's part of the problem: Nobody wants to make the mistake of counting Eli out again. But he's almost forty, and this ineptitude has gone on far too long. If this shit doesn't change, it's time to have an open competition for starting QB in 2018.



Prepare to get slammed by blind Eli apologists who refuse to see that there is a real problem aside from the OL and RB. These people will say that you know nothing about how football works and spit out statements like 'even Brady couldn't operate behind this line.'


Maybe Eli is done. But,this team can not run and it can not consistently pass protect. I read somewhere once the Giants had 6 rushing TD'S the past two seasons combined. This O is pillow soft, it can not run the ball and has protection breakdowns on a consistent basis. The unit sucks.
RE: RE: There's no struggling at all - Coughlin stubbornly lost games  
rocco8112 : 9/13/2017 10:59 am : link
In comment 13597024 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13597022 jcn56 said:


Quote:


because he flat out refused to admit his defense wasn't good enough to get stops. He just kept putting them out there at the end of games, with the same results.



In 2015 the Giants had the lead or were tied in the final 2 minutes of the game like 6 times!

What was he supposed to do? You say he "stubbornly" trotted them out to lose games.

Are you serious? We needed to score to tie or take the lead on offense, we weren't able to run the clock out, we needed to score! Mainly because the defense had been so sorry all game were were always trying to keep pace.

I don't know what you expected the guy to do.


Actually, trying to avoid putting the D out at the end of games is part of why TC was fired. Think the Jet game where he admitted he went for it on 4th late, a play resulting in an INT, because he was trying to put the game away due to Zero trust in the D.

Also, a team that must attempt the impossible of hiding their shit defend is not a good football team.
Kim is spot on  
32_Razor : 9/13/2017 11:07 am : link
With her assessment,
RE: RE: RE: There's no struggling at all - Coughlin stubbornly lost games  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 11:18 am : link
In comment 13597130 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
In comment 13597024 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13597022 jcn56 said:


Quote:


because he flat out refused to admit his defense wasn't good enough to get stops. He just kept putting them out there at the end of games, with the same results.



In 2015 the Giants had the lead or were tied in the final 2 minutes of the game like 6 times!

What was he supposed to do? You say he "stubbornly" trotted them out to lose games.

Are you serious? We needed to score to tie or take the lead on offense, we weren't able to run the clock out, we needed to score! Mainly because the defense had been so sorry all game were were always trying to keep pace.

I don't know what you expected the guy to do.



Actually, trying to avoid putting the D out at the end of games is part of why TC was fired. Think the Jet game where he admitted he went for it on 4th late, a play resulting in an INT, because he was trying to put the game away due to Zero trust in the D.

Also, a team that must attempt the impossible of hiding their shit defend is not a good football team.


Like I said, damned if he did, damned if he didn't.
But like I also said, what's done is done...  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 11:21 am : link
there's no going back, and this is not the reality of where we're at.

Hope it gets fixed. I'm losing confidence game by game.
RE: RE: Again - 2015's offense should have had even better numbers  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/13/2017 11:37 am : link
In comment 13597017 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 13596912 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Their defense was putrid - instead of hanging them out to dry with the 'well, they only needed to get one stop' - when it was working they should have scored more.

A bad defense gave them ample opportunity. Here - a bad offense is shielded by a strong defense, giving them less opportunity - and hurting their metrics further.

And ironically - resulting in more wins. Go figure.

you're really struggling and your reasoning is flat out ridiculous. Face it, the offensive genius and his Chinese buffet menu aren't getting it done.

They have menus at Chinese buffets?
Sounds like a Mike Sullivan trait  
GiantTuff1 : 9/13/2017 12:26 pm : link
Totally irresponsible having this guy helm an offense...

From 2014

Quote:
The 2013 season picked up where the previous season left off on offense: offensively. The Bucs didn't even reach 20 points until Week 6, and with the exception of their Week 11 stomping of the Falcons, where the offense scored 34 points, the Bucs didn't score more than three touchdowns in a single game all season.



Repetitive, archaic and stubborn: a look back at Mike Sullivan and his offense - ( New Window )
I think all of us who follow the Giants closely  
arniefez : 9/13/2017 12:53 pm : link
understand why Sullivan is the OC and it has nothing to do with the head coach.
With a healthy OBJ, and no bogus PI call, we'd have had a 50-50  
CT Charlie : 9/13/2017 1:27 pm : link
chance of winning in Dallas.
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