Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner
 

Archived Thread

Interesting Item on League-Wide Poor Offensive Line Problem

jpennyva : 9/13/2017 9:35 am
From today's Washington Post. Here are some rather interesting quotes:

Quote:
But an equally alarming problem surfaced as offenses reached new levels of putridity. It was not only the men throwing the ball, but also the men charged with protecting them. The NFL is amid an offensive line crisis, and the talent drain at the position is damaging the quality on the field in even uglier fashion than poor quarterbacking.


Quote:
Under the new collective bargaining agreement, teams have fewer offseason practices and hit at full speed less often when they do practice. The decrease of full-speed offseason practicing hurts offensive lines more than any other unit, especially in comparison with defensive linemen.


Quote:
The marquee games Sunday were Packers-Seahawks and Cowboys-Giants. In both, an inept offensive line prevented any attempt to commit football. Russell Wilson ran for his life behind Seattle’s overwhelmed blockers, and Eli Manning chucked desperate, short passes behind a blue-and-gray sieve.


Quote:
The Seahawks were not alone. According to Pro Football Focus, 10 teams received a positive grade on passing blocking and 11 were above zero in run blocking. In game after game, an offensive line gave its offense no chance.


I hadn't paid that much attention to many of the other games this past week. Though it's been discussed that a dearth of good offensive linemen exist, I hadn't realized it was quite this bad. The big question remains - what will the NFL do about it, if anything.
The NFL has an offensive line crisis - ( New Window )
The  
AcidTest : 9/13/2017 9:42 am : link
proliferation of spread offenses in college is also contributing to poor OL play in the NFL.
I watched a lot of football this past weekend  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 9:45 am : link
Our line is not as bad as you think - it's probably a bit worse than average, but it's not the worst.

The problem, and I hate to say it - is that Eli's immobility, combined with poor OL play - is a recipe for disaster. Put Eli behind most other lines in the NFL - and he's going to suffer the same fate.

The question then becomes is there a way to schematically offset this problem - quicker drops, more runs - to help Eli out? Obviously, not being able to get the run game on track is a huge issue.
Funny,  
Doomster : 9/13/2017 9:49 am : link
we hear about the rules of practice.....

But there are no rules for preseason games, and if offenses need the work, make them stay out there....oh, a guy gets injured? Chances are the same thing happens during the season, because he is not ready....freak plays happen all the time....but that is no excuse to not be ready for the regular season....
RE: I watched a lot of football this past weekend  
chuckydee9 : 9/13/2017 9:57 am : link
In comment 13596976 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Our line is not as bad as you think - it's probably a bit worse than average, but it's not the worst.

The problem, and I hate to say it - is that Eli's immobility, combined with poor OL play - is a recipe for disaster. Put Eli behind most other lines in the NFL - and he's going to suffer the same fate.

The question then becomes is there a way to schematically offset this problem - quicker drops, more runs - to help Eli out? Obviously, not being able to get the run game on track is a huge issue.


I saw the same thing.. Thats why for the first time I believe that Eli is shell shocked from 5 years of playing behind a bad OL.. PFF also agreed with this and concluded that overall Eli had less pressure than many of the other teams.. I saw GB and Seattle as well as red zone during the early games.. Both Rodgers and Wilson had more pressure in their face than Eli and many of the early games were brutal from an OL perspective.. The main difference for us is that GB OL will improve drastically when Bakthari comes back and we've seen their OL do great.. Our OL faced off against the worst DL in the league and got stomped.. There is no fix for us in the near future..
Got to agree  
simbapenn : 9/13/2017 10:06 am : link
I went on the Texans and Bengals subreddits to figure out who to pick for Thursday and both fan bases are worried about their offensive lines getting their QBs killed.

One interesting post said that Savage didn't play that bad, but it was the line that screwed him. Watson was only kind of successful because he was mobile and could avoid some of the problems the line created.

RE: Got to agree  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 10:12 am : link
In comment 13597021 simbapenn said:
Quote:
I went on the Texans and Bengals subreddits to figure out who to pick for Thursday and both fan bases are worried about their offensive lines getting their QBs killed.

One interesting post said that Savage didn't play that bad, but it was the line that screwed him. Watson was only kind of successful because he was mobile and could avoid some of the problems the line created.


And it was the same thing everywhere else you looked. Wilson's OL was horrendous, way worse than the Giants - and he had a fighting chance in GB because of his mobility.

Rodgers was running for his life too - without that speed, he would have been broken up into bits.

Savage did what he could but couldn't escape the rush - Watson came in and at least kept them at bay to string together a decent performance for a rookie.

Carson Palmer - closest to Eli as a pocket passer, look at the results there. Those were skewed somewhat due to the injury to DJ.

Maybe the era of the pocket passer has come to a close.
Interesting article  
jeff57 : 9/13/2017 10:13 am : link
But I don't think the reduction in the number of practices is much of a factor. I think it's the college spread offenses and a general talent shortage.
someone mentioned spread offenses  
nygiants16 : 9/13/2017 10:15 am : link
if you notice a lot of lineman are getting smaller and smaller, they cant bully anyone anymore, so big powering offensive lines are becoming fewer and fewer...

guys cant bully defensive lineman anymore, they are training for speed rather than strength
RE: I watched a lot of football this past weekend  
HomerJones45 : 9/13/2017 10:22 am : link
In comment 13596976 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Our line is not as bad as you think - it's probably a bit worse than average, but it's not the worst.

The problem, and I hate to say it - is that Eli's immobility, combined with poor OL play - is a recipe for disaster. Put Eli behind most other lines in the NFL - and he's going to suffer the same fate.

The question then becomes is there a way to schematically offset this problem - quicker drops, more runs - to help Eli out? Obviously, not being able to get the run game on track is a huge issue.
Still making excuses and looking for scapegoats when the answer is staring you in the face. The problem is that trying to import the GB offense, the only offense the HC/OC knows, without Aaron Rodgers to run it does not work, and his playcalling without Dad there to kick him in the ass when he obsesses about 3 yard completions sucks.

Eli is best when he has a little bit of a running game that he can play action off of with his superior ball handling skills, but all you geniuses objected to 'balance' and when he can freely audible to use that great football brain of his. Instead, we've got him throwing 3 yard passes to pre-determined receivers and checkdowns.
No, unlike you and your idol I'm a Giants fan  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 10:25 am : link
and I don't make excuses for McAdoo - he owns the offense, he owns the mess, he has to clean it up. He's primarily responsible.

And it is entirely possible that the offense that he has - which had worked for some time and doesn't now - is the result of a lack of oversight, is because the personnel don't fit, or is the way it is because Eli just isn't capable of running it anymore. Could also be a combination of all three.
RE: I watched a lot of football this past weekend  
barens : 9/13/2017 10:29 am : link
In comment 13596976 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Our line is not as bad as you think - it's probably a bit worse than average, but it's not the worst.

The problem, and I hate to say it - is that Eli's immobility, combined with poor OL play - is a recipe for disaster. Put Eli behind most other lines in the NFL - and he's going to suffer the same fate.

The question then becomes is there a way to schematically offset this problem - quicker drops, more runs - to help Eli out? Obviously, not being able to get the run game on track is a huge issue.


I'm going to disagree, because most offensive lines that struggled did so against good defenses.

The Giants offensive line got whupped by the Dallas Cowboys defense, a defense that does not make people lose sleep at night. The results should have been better.
Offensive Football Future  
Maineline : 9/13/2017 10:42 am : link
The immobile pocket passer is going the way of the Dodo bird. The few left in the league now survive by way of an unusual amount of experience and football smarts. After watching Eli and Tom B.last week it looks like even the best of them might be extinct soon.
RE: RE: I watched a lot of football this past weekend  
nygiants16 : 9/13/2017 10:45 am : link
In comment 13597044 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 13596976 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Our line is not as bad as you think - it's probably a bit worse than average, but it's not the worst.

The problem, and I hate to say it - is that Eli's immobility, combined with poor OL play - is a recipe for disaster. Put Eli behind most other lines in the NFL - and he's going to suffer the same fate.

The question then becomes is there a way to schematically offset this problem - quicker drops, more runs - to help Eli out? Obviously, not being able to get the run game on track is a huge issue.

Still making excuses and looking for scapegoats when the answer is staring you in the face. The problem is that trying to import the GB offense, the only offense the HC/OC knows, without Aaron Rodgers to run it does not work, and his playcalling without Dad there to kick him in the ass when he obsesses about 3 yard completions sucks.

Eli is best when he has a little bit of a running game that he can play action off of with his superior ball handling skills, but all you geniuses objected to 'balance' and when he can freely audible to use that great football brain of his. Instead, we've got him throwing 3 yard passes to pre-determined receivers and checkdowns.


you mean the same offense that more than half the league uses?
RE: RE: I watched a lot of football this past weekend  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 10:45 am : link
In comment 13597063 barens said:
Quote:
In comment 13596976 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Our line is not as bad as you think - it's probably a bit worse than average, but it's not the worst.

The problem, and I hate to say it - is that Eli's immobility, combined with poor OL play - is a recipe for disaster. Put Eli behind most other lines in the NFL - and he's going to suffer the same fate.

The question then becomes is there a way to schematically offset this problem - quicker drops, more runs - to help Eli out? Obviously, not being able to get the run game on track is a huge issue.



I'm going to disagree, because most offensive lines that struggled did so against good defenses.

The Giants offensive line got whupped by the Dallas Cowboys defense, a defense that does not make people lose sleep at night. The results should have been better.


It is the first week of the season - Dallas wasn't expected to have much of a defense, but they have a lot of new faces - it's not impossible that they're better than we had predicted.

Same for Pitt/Cle, Az/Det - we assume those defenses are good based on what we know the personnel to be from last season and who was picked up, but after one week of live fire it's impossible to know for sure. The one constant - QBs were running for their lives all over the place, save for LA and Dallas.
RE: RE: I watched a lot of football this past weekend  
Giantfan in skinland : 9/13/2017 10:45 am : link
In comment 13597044 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 13596976 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Our line is not as bad as you think - it's probably a bit worse than average, but it's not the worst.

The problem, and I hate to say it - is that Eli's immobility, combined with poor OL play - is a recipe for disaster. Put Eli behind most other lines in the NFL - and he's going to suffer the same fate.

The question then becomes is there a way to schematically offset this problem - quicker drops, more runs - to help Eli out? Obviously, not being able to get the run game on track is a huge issue.

Still making excuses and looking for scapegoats when the answer is staring you in the face. The problem is that trying to import the GB offense, the only offense the HC/OC knows, without Aaron Rodgers to run it does not work, and his playcalling without Dad there to kick him in the ass when he obsesses about 3 yard completions sucks.

Eli is best when he has a little bit of a running game that he can play action off of with his superior ball handling skills, but all you geniuses objected to 'balance' and when he can freely audible to use that great football brain of his. Instead, we've got him throwing 3 yard passes to pre-determined receivers and checkdowns.


Just a reminder. Mike McCarthy's offense in Green Bay predates Aaron Rodgers. It was previously captained by a 38 year old QB to run one of the better offenses in the league and took his team to the NFC Championship. Arguing that that the offense requires Aaron Rodgers, or even a mobile QB, doesn't seem supportable to me.

That said, I do believe the quality of OL play on most teams is driving a need for more mobile QBs. Eli has always had some shiftiness in the pocket...but of late, you just don't see him escaping and delivering strikes. I don't think that's all on the offensive design (though I think Macadoo really seems incapable of scheming around our strengths/weaknesses to at least achieve a minimally proficient level). Watching some other QBs operating around the league under pressure....you just see them escaping and extending plays. You see coaches using the QBs athleticism to get the defense moving/create plays on offense. Certainly would be a logical outgrowth of declining OL play around the league.
RE: RE: I watched a lot of football this past weekend  
Reb8thVA : 9/13/2017 10:58 am : link
In comment 13597044 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 13596976 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Our line is not as bad as you think - it's probably a bit worse than average, but it's not the worst.

The problem, and I hate to say it - is that Eli's immobility, combined with poor OL play - is a recipe for disaster. Put Eli behind most other lines in the NFL - and he's going to suffer the same fate.

The question then becomes is there a way to schematically offset this problem - quicker drops, more runs - to help Eli out? Obviously, not being able to get the run game on track is a huge issue.

Still making excuses and looking for scapegoats when the answer is staring you in the face. The problem is that trying to import the GB offense, the only offense the HC/OC knows, without Aaron Rodgers to run it does not work, and his playcalling without Dad there to kick him in the ass when he obsesses about 3 yard completions sucks.

Eli is best when he has a little bit of a running game that he can play action off of with his superior ball handling skills, but all you geniuses objected to 'balance' and when he can freely audible to use that great football brain of his. Instead, we've got him throwing 3 yard passes to pre-determined receivers and checkdowns.


+1
RE: RE: I watched a lot of football this past weekend  
Emil : 9/13/2017 11:26 am : link
In comment 13597044 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 13596976 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Our line is not as bad as you think - it's probably a bit worse than average, but it's not the worst.

The problem, and I hate to say it - is that Eli's immobility, combined with poor OL play - is a recipe for disaster. Put Eli behind most other lines in the NFL - and he's going to suffer the same fate.

The question then becomes is there a way to schematically offset this problem - quicker drops, more runs - to help Eli out? Obviously, not being able to get the run game on track is a huge issue.

Still making excuses and looking for scapegoats when the answer is staring you in the face. The problem is that trying to import the GB offense, the only offense the HC/OC knows, without Aaron Rodgers to run it does not work, and his playcalling without Dad there to kick him in the ass when he obsesses about 3 yard completions sucks.

Eli is best when he has a little bit of a running game that he can play action off of with his superior ball handling skills, but all you geniuses objected to 'balance' and when he can freely audible to use that great football brain of his. Instead, we've got him throwing 3 yard passes to pre-determined receivers and checkdowns.


I'm with Homer. The OL is not good, but is compounded by the lack of balance. I know that is not the conventional wisdom now days, but the Giants need to have at least a credible run threat, which they don't at the moment. Imagine if the team averaged 3.5 yds per carry instead of 2.9. Then playaction would be more viable and Eli would do what he does best.

One final thought on the Rodgers comparrison. Eli is a different style of QB, and Rodgers (like Favre) has this incredible ability to throw acurate passes, regardless of mechanics and footwork. Eli is not like that at all. Eli needs a pocket that he can step into, similar to Brady. Also, to be honest, so far the offensive weapons in Green Bay are more dynamic. They don't have an OBJ, but they are better at TE, WR, and RB across the board. We may close the gap, but have not proven it yet. Also, Green Bay's OL is better than the Giants. Eli may not be Rodgers, but I'd like to see Eli play behind the Green Bay OL and Green Bay offensive weapons (but still keep OBJ of course).
Skinland the other  
area junc : 9/13/2017 11:41 am : link
guy youre talking about is Brett Favre. McCarthy went from Favre to Rodgers. 2 perfect WCO QBs with mobility, accuracy, big arms and throwing on the run.

And thats McCarthy - his scheme is far more creative than ours. They execute. He has little wrinkles mixed in for situations. And they are executed.

Eli is a terrible fit for a WCO which is part of the reason it was so stupid hiring Mac in the 1st place. Shouldve gone with Gase.
RE: Skinland the other  
nygiants16 : 9/13/2017 11:45 am : link
In comment 13597210 area junc said:
Quote:
guy youre talking about is Brett Favre. McCarthy went from Favre to Rodgers. 2 perfect WCO QBs with mobility, accuracy, big arms and throwing on the run.

And thats McCarthy - his scheme is far more creative than ours. They execute. He has little wrinkles mixed in for situations. And they are executed.

Eli is a terrible fit for a WCO which is part of the reason it was so stupid hiring Mac in the 1st place. Shouldve gone with Gase.


funn eli had one of his best years in the west coast offense...

also didnt rodgers criticize the offense last year saying it was to vanilla?

not to mentione more than half the league run the wco not just the packers
Really look at it  
area junc : 9/13/2017 1:00 pm : link
and the managerial incompetence is infuriating.

Meld McAdoos offense with TC’s? Da fuq?

Hire Sullivan who isnt familiar with the WCO.

Double da fuq?????
RE: Really look at it  
Now Mike in MD : 9/13/2017 1:18 pm : link
In comment 13597323 area junc said:
Quote:
and the managerial incompetence is infuriating.

Meld McAdoos offense with TC’s? Da fuq?

Hire Sullivan who isnt familiar with the WCO.

Double da fuq?????


There was not melding of the two. That's a BS tale that is being spun. Every article at the time stated that 2015 was McAdoo's offense. Not an amalgam. Point me to one bit of evidence to support this aside from theories being spun
.  
arcarsenal : 9/13/2017 1:25 pm : link
I posted something about this a few weeks ago - OL play around the league is very bad. Not all - but many.

That said, teams with weak OL's are still finding ways to move the football and we aren't. It's clear there's a significant issue with the offense right now
in addition to the current causality narrative  
idiotsavant : 9/13/2017 1:33 pm : link
(that colleges don't run anymore thus these guys cannot play the fundamentals as rookies)

I would add, league wide trends towards more multiple DL of front 7 schemes, crowding the line with 4+ large strong players on D in various ways down to down.

the game is changing and certain schemes may work better now, shanny jrs' falcons 12 and 13 sets, you have additional big bodies on the OL without loosing multiplicity and unpredictability in your play calling.

not only very variable, not only runs well vs the new style D lines, but also league leading play action %ages I think probably
you simply cannot keep asking jerry and richboyg  
idiotsavant : 9/13/2017 1:37 pm : link
and the RBs to keep picking up stunts and blitzs without either A) training them up in a rational way to stop those, or B) getting players that can.

But it seems more like 'they didn't just do that did they'? as if coach and staff want to say ' that's not how its done'.


well, it is.
RE: No, unlike you and your idol I'm a Giants fan  
UConn4523 : 9/13/2017 1:42 pm : link
In comment 13597051 jcn56 said:
Quote:
and I don't make excuses for McAdoo - he owns the offense, he owns the mess, he has to clean it up. He's primarily responsible.

And it is entirely possible that the offense that he has - which had worked for some time and doesn't now - is the result of a lack of oversight, is because the personnel don't fit, or is the way it is because Eli just isn't capable of running it anymore. Could also be a combination of all three.


I dont understand the "excuses" and "scapegoats" crowd, never did. None of us run the team, theres nothing to make excuses for.

I posted something similar yesterday as have others. There's multiple problems but the biggest one COULD be Eli. Not definitively him, but it could be him. For those screaming to part with a premium pick for an LT, it could very well be a waste.

Just consider the alterbative is all I ask. Being locked in to it's the fault of _______ is bogus.
Back to the Corner