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If you were a D Coordinator

hitdog42 : 9/13/2017 9:49 am
and knew the following about your opponent, you would probably be excited.

- Immobile QB… zero threat of breaking off a run if the DL gets up field
- No game breaker at RB- so again very little reason for concern with turning the DL loose.
- Reluctance to chip and help (then release) with TEs and RBs
- Predictable play calling when certain personnel is on the field (that everyone knows about)
- Team runs play action when opponent feels zero threat of running game = waste
- Inability to generate shots (not even completions) downfield.
- Little use of the “stop fade” type routes that Manning used to throw beautifully

Notice I didn’t even have to mention the OL once in the above. (though they do impact some of it)

The point of this is that the above make it very easy for defenses to exploit an OL that is not great. even if the OL were just average (I personally think with better scheme that the OL would look mediocre instead of terrible)…

the fact that the DL are able to play the pass on almost every play… the fact that linebackers can scheme based on what TE/RB are in the game… and the fact that safeties don’t have to fear the deep ball… all puts the offense (in particular the OL) at a massive disadvantage before the ball is even snapped. (made exponentially worse with OBJ out)

This is a bigger issue for me than the OL itself. Personally I would make some changes up front to get a better run OL on the field… but the season will depend on whether the HC/OC/QB can sit down and talk about how to remove the predictability of the offense that has allowed the defense to play and impose their will on the game… as opposed to the other way around. Blaming execution and communication is the sure sign of stubbornness.

If we can make the necessary changes… coupled with OBJ returning, I have no doubt that this team will have a good season. The giants were supposed to lose week 1… so there is no hill to climb yet.
If I were an aposing DC playing the giants...  
silverfox : 9/13/2017 9:53 am : link
I'd be licking my chops and you'd have to wash the smile off my face.
I would sleep  
Beer Man : 9/13/2017 9:55 am : link
very well, the night before the game
Great points...  
Dan in the Springs : 9/13/2017 9:56 am : link
I hate that we always look to take what the defense gives us. Remember how Fassel used to say that you had to take a shot downfield at least once a quarter? That this was how you kept a defense honest? When you are looking at 3rd and long and throw a 2 yard out route because the defense is sitting back in a deep zone, how is that a win for the offense? Can't an attempt downfield, even if it results in an incompletion, work at least some of the time?

I know some will say that if we can't block we can't throw downfield, but there were times when we picked up the rush and had enough time to look downfield. Eli scans the defense and says - "my best bet for a completion is this underneath route short of the sticks". This offense has improved his completion %, but at what expense?

Something very wrong with the scheme/philosophy at this point.

And I've been trying to figure out if anybody tracks the number of times an OT has zero help in pass protect. I've been saying that I believe we are at the top of the league in providing zero help to our obviously struggling OTs.
That's a great post  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 9:57 am : link
The good news is they did address a couple of points, albeit without great success.

They did come out in different personnel groupings (but still, IMO, remain predictable when it comes to what personnel are on the field and what plays they're going to run). So they're not stuck in 11 personnel anymore, which is good.

They did try chipping on a few plays - with limited success. Some of that just seemed to be an inconsistent performance by Smith and Ellison.

Perkins seems to have taken a step back - he seemed pensive, hesitant. He might not be explosive, but I do think he's a good every down back. Not sure what we could add personnel wise to fix that, who's left out there.

I think their biggest problem that can be addressed is the predictability. Don't bother with PA when you can't run. Don't make run and pass downs as obvious with certain personnel (Ellison, Vereen). Chip more - if it means taking another receiver out of the loop, so be it - but get some more time by whatever means necessary to keep the QB clean and build up some rhythm even if it means smaller gains.
pretty easy  
nygiants16 : 9/13/2017 10:00 am : link
double beckham, corner plays underneath and safety over the top...

leave one backer in the middle of the field in zone coverage...


let the other backer play the running back and if back stays in blitz...

nickel corner plays man to man on slot, no slot, play zone with middle backer..

opposite corner man to man on his guy...

safety man to man on tight end...
While your points are true  
gmenatlarge : 9/13/2017 10:02 am : link
They are negated by average O-line play and some semblance of a running game!
First Game of the Season  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/13/2017 10:03 am : link
after 11-5 and improvements made -- I think I'd wait to see what was going to happen for a few games before I was ready to barn burn

yes it was ugly -- but there is every reason to believe that the Giants can still have a good season
RE: While your points are true  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 10:05 am : link
In comment 13597013 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
They are negated by average O-line play and some semblance of a running game!


It's not, though. Our OL isn't very good - but they're not much worse than average. Average wouldn't cut it for Eli at this point in his career.

To get Eli going, it would appear that we'd have to build an OL similar to Dallas. Can't think of anyone else in the league that has an OL that Eli would hold up well behind, to be honest. That took them 5 years to do, and a ton of cap space. Not to mention having a top-15 pick drop into their hands for free.

Doesn't look like that's going to happen, so we need a plan B.
RE: First Game of the Season  
hitdog42 : 9/13/2017 10:12 am : link
In comment 13597016 gidiefor said:
Quote:
after 11-5 and improvements made -- I think I'd wait to see what was going to happen for a few games before I was ready to barn burn

yes it was ugly -- but there is every reason to believe that the Giants can still have a good season


agree- thus my last line on the season... but if they just say execution and communication.... and dont address the issues mentioned... its going to be very hard. with an open mind some of these are easily addressed- personnel is not
Keep in mind that this is offense is very similar to 2011  
Jay on the Island : 9/13/2017 10:40 am : link
The Giants had the league's worst running game. An offensive line with a washed up Diehl at LT, Boothe at LG, Baas at C, washed up Snee at RG, and declining McKenzie at RT.

The offense had three weapons at WR in Nicks, Manningham, and Cruz similar to Beckham, Marshall, Shepard.

The current roster is much better off at TE with Engram, Ellison, and Adams as opposed to Ballard and not much else.

RE: First Game of the Season  
rocco8112 : 9/13/2017 11:04 am : link
In comment 13597016 gidiefor said:
Quote:
after 11-5 and improvements made -- I think I'd wait to see what was going to happen for a few games before I was ready to barn burn

yes it was ugly -- but there is every reason to believe that the Giants can still have a good season


I like your optimism, but that was one of the worst ways for the season to start. If the O looks league worst again on Monday, it will be panic time.
nice spin doctoring  
micky : 9/13/2017 11:08 am : link
.
RE: RE: First Game of the Season  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/13/2017 11:20 am : link
In comment 13597025 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
In comment 13597016 gidiefor said:


Quote:


after 11-5 and improvements made -- I think I'd wait to see what was going to happen for a few games before I was ready to barn burn

yes it was ugly -- but there is every reason to believe that the Giants can still have a good season



agree- thus my last line on the season... but if they just say execution and communication.... and dont address the issues mentioned... its going to be very hard. with an open mind some of these are easily addressed- personnel is not


I agree with you 100% hitdog -- if the personnel just doesn't have not only the requisite ability - but also the will power/desire to raise their level of play -- no coach in the world can hide those deficiencies

but - in the case of the Oline -- after taking a few punches in the mouth they did produce better in the second half for the most part

I rewatched the game to chart the plays so I could be up to speed with Sy on any given moment -- and there was a lot of ugly play to go around -- across the board. And it's a very good argument to cut a preseason game (or two) -- because in 4 preseason games the veteran starters barely played a full game combined - and they looked off sync to me, on the whole, quite a bit -- the whole lot of them.

By the way -- Thompson was so uneven -- I wondered if Adams shouldn't play but they kept him in

The players need the work - they need to get in rhythm - this team is much better than they played on Sunday Night -- I'm pretty sure of it

and as to the play calling -- I really don't know what to think -- because I don't think the Cowboys played a much different set of plays than the Giants - their game plan was pretty straight forward -- pound the ball (and Zeke is a frikken animal) and take mostly a few chip shot passes (outs, hooks and crossing) with an occasional 20 + yarder
Do exactly what Dallas did  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 9/13/2017 11:34 am : link
until the Giants can prove they can establish the run.

Here's the problem, the Giants do not want to run the ball even when its effective. Its absolutely mind boggling.
RE: RE: While your points are true  
gmenatlarge : 9/13/2017 1:03 pm : link
In comment 13597020 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13597013 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


They are negated by average O-line play and some semblance of a running game!



It's not, though. Our OL isn't very good - but they're not much worse than average. Average wouldn't cut it for Eli at this point in his career.

To get Eli going, it would appear that we'd have to build an OL similar to Dallas. Can't think of anyone else in the league that has an OL that Eli would hold up well behind, to be honest. That took them 5 years to do, and a ton of cap space. Not to mention having a top-15 pick drop into their hands for free.

Doesn't look like that's going to happen, so we need a plan B.


I'm assuming you watched Sunday's game-missed assignments, getting blown back into Eli's face, Hart being tossed like a rag doll and allowing a jailbreak sack at the biggest point of the game. That's not even close to average, that's a bottom-dwelling O-line.
do they really not see how predictable they are?  
PerpetualNervousness : 9/13/2017 1:29 pm : link
isn't there a ton of self scouting, both in the off season and during the season? how could a professional coaching staff not recognize that?
I think you're mixing up cause and effect  
widmerseyebrow : 9/13/2017 2:25 pm : link
Quote:

- No game breaker at RB- so again very little reason for concern with turning the DL loose.


We have no game breaker at running back because out offensive line can't open up holes consistently. As McAdoo says, "All runningbacks run the same when there's no where to run."

Quote:

- Predictable play calling when certain personnel is on the field (that everyone knows about)


We're predictable because our offensive line can't assert itself in run blocking, nor protect long enough for anything downfield to develop.

Quote:

- Team runs play action when opponent feels zero threat of running game = waste


You cite predictable play calling, but then you want to get rid of play action. One less thing for the defense to account for. It's similar to when the run is not working, everyone wants the coach to abandon the running game and go no huddle passing the whole game. It doesn't work that way. It's about keeping the defense honest.

Quote:

- Inability to generate shots (not even completions) downfield.


Again, when the line has trouble protecting for a five yard goal line pass play, how do you expect to "generate" deep shots?



I think a lot of people are wrongly thinking that the product on the field is what McAdoo wants. You can't tell me he wouldn't love to open up the playbook, but when your offensive line can't establish a run game or protect for passes that take longer than 2 seconds to develop, your options are limited.
When an opposing defense doesn't have to blitz to create pressure  
jlukes : 9/13/2017 2:28 pm : link
it changes everything
Ugly will be game #3 in Philly ...  
Bluesbreaker : 9/13/2017 2:29 pm : link
First Game of the Season
gidiefor : Mod : 10:03 am : link : reply
after 11-5 and improvements made -- I think I'd wait to see what was going to happen for a few games before I was ready to barn burn

yes it was ugly -- but there is every reason to believe that the Giants can still have a good season

A get right team  
trueblueinpw : 9/13/2017 2:34 pm : link
Carl Banks on the radio has called the Giants a "get right" team, as in, other teams "get right" against the Giants. I seriously would like to know if opposing d-cos are actually laughing when they watch tape or if they're too busy licking their chops.
RE: RE: RE: While your points are true  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 2:52 pm : link
In comment 13597333 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
In comment 13597020 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13597013 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


They are negated by average O-line play and some semblance of a running game!



It's not, though. Our OL isn't very good - but they're not much worse than average. Average wouldn't cut it for Eli at this point in his career.

To get Eli going, it would appear that we'd have to build an OL similar to Dallas. Can't think of anyone else in the league that has an OL that Eli would hold up well behind, to be honest. That took them 5 years to do, and a ton of cap space. Not to mention having a top-15 pick drop into their hands for free.

Doesn't look like that's going to happen, so we need a plan B.



I'm assuming you watched Sunday's game-missed assignments, getting blown back into Eli's face, Hart being tossed like a rag doll and allowing a jailbreak sack at the biggest point of the game. That's not even close to average, that's a bottom-dwelling O-line.


Hart was on a bad ankle at that point. I also saw the rest - where there was time, but Eli didn't take advantage of it. Not as easy as 'shoot the OL'.
Am I crazy or didn't we roll Eli out  
bradshaw44 : 9/13/2017 3:57 pm : link
On boots quite a bit in Macs first year at OC? We don't seem to be doing that anymore.
RE: I think you're mixing up cause and effect  
hitdog42 : 9/13/2017 6:00 pm : link
In comment 13597484 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:


Quote:



- No game breaker at RB- so again very little reason for concern with turning the DL loose.




We have no game breaker at running back because out offensive line can't open up holes consistently. As McAdoo says, "All runningbacks run the same when there's no where to run."



Quote:



- Predictable play calling when certain personnel is on the field (that everyone knows about)




We're predictable because our offensive line can't assert itself in run blocking, nor protect long enough for anything downfield to develop.



Quote:



- Team runs play action when opponent feels zero threat of running game = waste




You cite predictable play calling, but then you want to get rid of play action. One less thing for the defense to account for. It's similar to when the run is not working, everyone wants the coach to abandon the running game and go no huddle passing the whole game. It doesn't work that way. It's about keeping the defense honest.



Quote:



- Inability to generate shots (not even completions) downfield.




Again, when the line has trouble protecting for a five yard goal line pass play, how do you expect to "generate" deep shots?



I think a lot of people are wrongly thinking that the product on the field is what McAdoo wants. You can't tell me he wouldn't love to open up the playbook, but when your offensive line can't establish a run game or protect for passes that take longer than 2 seconds to develop, your options are limited.


So you are happy to just blame the oline for everything - an ol that is not going to change until the offseason.... so I guess we just give up? Or instead of blaming execution... the giants try to put the players on the field in position to succeed- which means
- don't run every time elllison is In
- don't pass every time vereen is in
- try to chip with backs and tight ends and release
- get the qb to challenge the defense when he does have time
- don't run play action when the running game hasn't been made a threat
- utilize the wr that has epic size and experience
- and more

Or we can just whine about the oline and act like the defense isn't imposing their will on us partly because we let them.

Oh well it's ok, Brad wing is a weapon
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