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The more I think about this OL,

Doomster : 9/13/2017 10:05 am
and the possible injury to Hart, the more I get mad....

Because, what do you do? Bandaid it by just throwing a replacement out there....

To me, making wholesale changes out there, is not the answer, because it should have been done in preseason, to check out options....

I said before the season started, we can't afford injuries to the OL, because we will be throwing unknowns into the mix....

But Maybe it is time...and Hart's injury may force it....

I think we are stuck with Flowers at LT.....How about moving Richburg back to LG, Jones to C, Jerry at RG, and Pugh to RT?

Yes, I think we are forced to keep Jerry out there....and yes, there will be growing pains, making three changes in the line at this stage of the game, but we may not have a choice.....
..  
nygiants16 : 9/13/2017 10:12 am : link
flowers didnt play horribly sunday night, it was the right side that killed them..

i would use jones at rg and fluker at rt...

if you want to go bold, move pugh to rt, jones lg and fluker to rg...

my guess they fluker in at rt and that is it
To be honest I'd prefer they make one move at a time  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 10:14 am : link
I don't know how you could fairly evaluate a performance if you start making wholesale changes on the line.

Step 1 - Hart can't go - replace him with the next man up. That's the necessary change.

If that works out, step 2 is to replace Jerry. He was the worst offender by far on Sunday, was awful all preseason, and would be my #1 if not for the injury to Hart.

Flowers isn't going anywhere anytime soon. That's a combination of the fact that he's not the worst offender, and it would take too long to get him acclimated elsewhere on the line to make a difference this season.
I'll chime in with a silly comment here  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 9/13/2017 10:19 am : link
In yesterday's write up on the O-Line Pat talked about how Eli has always been and will always be an immobile pocket passer. But for that to work you really need an O Line that can allow him to drop back set his feet and pass. Ours does not allow that and hasn't in years. Maybe Aaron Rodgers could make it work, but Eli is who he is.

Here comes the stupid part...Geno Smith is quite mobile. While he is a significant downgrade at QB from Eli, maybe this is something we need to think about with an O Line that not only hasn't improved but seemingly is getting worse.

Flame away...
I don't see it ...  
Beer Man : 9/13/2017 10:26 am : link
For one, although Jones did well in the preseason at RG, he did not perform well when playing C with the second teamers. Also, I think Rich will be fine once he has 2 respectable guards playing both sides of him. Second, any lineup that includes John Jerry as a starter is already lost IMHO.
I hope that the Giants have Wheeler  
Jay on the Island : 9/13/2017 10:26 am : link
play almost exclusively at RT in practice. Once they feel that he is able enough to play RT then they should insert him into the starting lineup and have either Fluker, Jones, or Hart at RG. Flowers did not play poorly IMO and the rest of the line should be solid enough to get the job done.
Geno makes horrible decisions and can't read a defense  
Mike from Ohio : 9/13/2017 10:28 am : link
Putting him in simply because he is more mobile than Eli is fixing one small problem while creating two much larger ones.
RE: Geno makes horrible decisions and can't read a defense  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 9/13/2017 10:29 am : link
In comment 13597062 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
Putting him in simply because he is more mobile than Eli is fixing one small problem while creating two much larger ones.


True, but Eli has been known to make horrible decisions too. I'm not really suggesting we swap them...it was more an exercise of looking at one of the worst O Lines in the league, knowing you can't fix it this year and trying to examine all options.
Start Jones at Center  
Chip : 9/13/2017 10:31 am : link
Fluker at Guard and see how it goes at least you will have something to compare.
As much as we talk about the OL,  
j_rud : 9/13/2017 10:32 am : link
particularly the lack of a clean pocket, we rarely talk about replacing Richburg. The guy just doesn't anchor well, and it's not like he's moving anyone in the run game. Of course there's not an adequate replacement so I'm not even sure if it's worth discussing, just pointing it out. He had a solid start to his career but he's clearly regressed. I guess the silver lining is he's making it very easy to make a decision on his future here. At this rate I don't even know if you pony up for Pugh. Do you give a big contract for a pretty good player when the rest of the line is in shambles? If this continues I'd rather go the Vikings route and just turn the whole thing over.
I'm reaaaaaaally hoping it doesn't come to that  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 10:33 am : link
Geno Smith would be the QB equivalent of a giant white flag. It's the first game, let's hope they just went out there and laid an egg and we've got better things to come.

But if things don't improve come midseason - I think you need to give one of the more mobile guys a chance, even if only to evaluate whether Eli can still get this done. If validated, then you at least know Eli is not part of the problem.
RE: As much as we talk about the OL,  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 10:35 am : link
In comment 13597069 j_rud said:
Quote:
particularly the lack of a clean pocket, we rarely talk about replacing Richburg. The guy just doesn't anchor well, and it's not like he's moving anyone in the run game. Of course there's not an adequate replacement so I'm not even sure if it's worth discussing, just pointing it out. He had a solid start to his career but he's clearly regressed. I guess the silver lining is he's making it very easy to make a decision on his future here. At this rate I don't even know if you pony up for Pugh. Do you give a big contract for a pretty good player when the rest of the line is in shambles? If this continues I'd rather go the Vikings route and just turn the whole thing over.


I honestly think we're looking at that - the fact that neither Pugh nor Richburg have been extended lead me to believe the team is thinking about blowing it all up.

Not that I have much confidence in that, mind you.

As for Richburg - he's not mentioned much because he's mediocre, but consistent. He's not blowing anyone away, but he's infrequently the reason plays get blown up. He's not doing anything great in the run game, but he's not getting Eli killed either. Given the problems we have with the OL, Richburg is down on the list.
RE: I'll chime in with a silly comment here  
bradshaw44 : 9/13/2017 10:36 am : link
In comment 13597039 Bold Ruler said:
Quote:
In yesterday's write up on the O-Line Pat talked about how Eli has always been and will always be an immobile pocket passer. But for that to work you really need an O Line that can allow him to drop back set his feet and pass. Ours does not allow that and hasn't in years. Maybe Aaron Rodgers could make it work, but Eli is who he is.

Here comes the stupid part...Geno Smith is quite mobile. While he is a significant downgrade at QB from Eli, maybe this is something we need to think about with an O Line that not only hasn't improved but seemingly is getting worse.

Flame away...


I had a similar thought yesterday. One even crazier. Play Gene until we hit the redzone. Then put Eli back in. It's crazy madden talk but I did think it.
RE: I'll chime in with a silly comment here  
Gman11 : 9/13/2017 10:49 am : link
In comment 13597039 Bold Ruler said:
Quote:
In yesterday's write up on the O-Line Pat talked about how Eli has always been and will always be an immobile pocket passer. But for that to work you really need an O Line that can allow him to drop back set his feet and pass. Ours does not allow that and hasn't in years. Maybe Aaron Rodgers could make it work, but Eli is who he is.

Here comes the stupid part...Geno Smith is quite mobile. While he is a significant downgrade at QB from Eli, maybe this is something we need to think about with an O Line that not only hasn't improved but seemingly is getting worse.

Flame away...
If they weren't aiming for the Super Bowl I'd say go with Webb and cross your fingers, but this team is too good defensively to do that.
Dallas doesn't have this all world D Line  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 9/13/2017 10:50 am : link
They did what they did what a standard 4 man rush almost exclusively. That's really scary. One game is one game but...
RE: I'll chime in with a silly comment here  
micky : 9/13/2017 11:13 am : link
In comment 13597039 Bold Ruler said:
Quote:
In yesterday's write up on the O-Line Pat talked about how Eli has always been and will always be an immobile pocket passer. But for that to work you really need an O Line that can allow him to drop back set his feet and pass. Ours does not allow that and hasn't in years. Maybe Aaron Rodgers could make it work, but Eli is who he is.

Here comes the stupid part...Geno Smith is quite mobile. While he is a significant downgrade at QB from Eli, maybe this is something we need to think about with an O Line that not only hasn't improved but seemingly is getting worse.

Flame away...


its not too crazy...with the mobility part. Not saying geno is the answer..but focused on the mobility part and having a qb like that for this ol, which still isnt the best. not crazy at all
I said it a month ago ...  
Manny in CA : 9/13/2017 11:16 am : link

Every O-lineman on this team save for Richburg) is playing out of position.

* Flowers is a mauling Right tackle (like a Kareem McKinzie), that's why he struggles against fast, tricky DEs

* Pugh failed at RT (because he's not big or strong enough), but is quick and very smart; he needs to go to LT (or maybe he should stay there and give Wheeler a shot at LT

* Jerry, despite his bulk is terrible at RG; he's quick, so he might be a better pulling LG, so maybe Jones to RG may be a better choice

The whole thing's an awful mess - 2nd grade talent and poor choices of matches.


I get the POINT of the Geno commentary.  
Beezer : 9/13/2017 11:20 am : link

But holy shit.

Please God, no.

Good points Manny  
Ivan15 : 9/13/2017 12:25 pm : link
Didn't Jerry play LG I his first Giant season?l

Maybe he didn't play well but better than Schwartz at RG.

If it wasn't for the fact that no one knows if Flowers can play RT, we could have LT Pugh, LG Jerry, C Richburg, LG Jones, LT Flowers or Fluker.
RE: I get the POINT of the Geno commentary.  
markky : 9/13/2017 12:36 pm : link
In comment 13597164 Beezer said:
Quote:

But holy shit.

Please God, no.


i'd rather go Webb once the playoffs are out of reach.
Geno's problem  
Vanzetti : 9/13/2017 12:47 pm : link
is that he starts to watch the rush and takes his eyes off the receivers downfield. Same problem David Carr, Michael Vick and a lot of other physically talented QBs had.

So even though Geno is more mobile and can buy time, it doesn't help when he is not looking at his receivers. That's why he makes so many mistakes as well. He looks up quickly and sees a guy open but does not see the safety coming over because he has not been scanning the field.

In contrast, Aaron Rodgers has great awareness of what is happening downfield even when he is scrambling. It's gift. Not many like him.
RE: RE: Geno makes horrible decisions and can't read a defense  
Dinger : 9/13/2017 12:58 pm : link
In comment 13597064 Bold Ruler said:
Quote:
In comment 13597062 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


Putting him in simply because he is more mobile than Eli is fixing one small problem while creating two much larger ones.



True, but Eli has been known to make horrible decisions too. I'm not really suggesting we swap them...it was more an exercise of looking at one of the worst O Lines in the league, knowing you can't fix it this year and trying to examine all options.


A lot of QB's make bad decisions. Most of them don't win super bowls. most done get punched in the face by their teamate. I understand your premise BR but putting Geno in because he's more mobile makes the same sense as keeping Flowers out there cause hes strong.....
Im not really suggesting this. It's more an exercise to see how  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 9/13/2017 1:01 pm : link
we can deal with the shitty O Line with the personnel we have.
To me the easiest plug and play  
Peppers : 9/13/2017 1:10 pm : link
Is Jones at RG and Fluker at RT. You just can't trust Jerry or Hart. I'd give them the first half of the lions game. If they struggle I make the switch to Jones and Fluker.

Also, Mac will have to change his scheme a little. Ellison should be playing damn near every snap.

RE: Im not really suggesting this. It's more an exercise to see how  
Dinger : 9/13/2017 1:11 pm : link
In comment 13597325 Bold Ruler said:
Quote:
we can deal with the shitty O Line with the personnel we have.


It is a creative idea and makes sense, which means the Giants would never try it. When the line started going down hill isnt that when we brought in Macadoo and our offense turned into a dinking and dunking short game? That change was made instead of changing the personell. They don't seem to have any other realistic options. Unfortunately I think the same 5 start Monday night and get at least 2 sets of 3 and outs before any personell changes are made.
They are not gonna start Geno  
Bluesbreaker : 9/13/2017 1:12 pm : link
Doesn't matter who you put back there right now with no run game and no pass protection it won't matter .
Eli was hardly mobile as a rookie he is a pocket passer and needs a viable running game .
Your running an offense that plays away from his strengths the game is one in the trenches . We win most of the battles on the defensive side . While we lose in the trenches on the offensive side . Dallas D-line is decent but hardly top 5 maybe not even top ten .
They did a lousy job constructing this line and the draft is riddled with failures for back ups they have had chances over the past four years and I get the fact that they did not foresee Beatty going down it was from that point forward they needed at least two starters instead of throwing Flowers out there at LT instead of grooming him at RT .. Sorry but you have basically pissed away 6 years of our star QB's career .
Bold,  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/13/2017 1:13 pm : link
I mentioned Geno too when talking with my old man on the phone last night. It was more of like 'This is totally insane, colossally stupid, & will never happen, but Geno is at least mobile. Of course his mobility will negate all the bonehead decisions he would commit, but it's a though.'
RE: To me the easiest plug and play  
Dinger : 9/13/2017 1:15 pm : link
In comment 13597345 Peppers said:
Quote:
Is Jones at RG and Fluker at RT. You just can't trust Jerry or Hart. I'd give them the first half of the lions game. If they struggle I make the switch to Jones and Fluker.

Also, Mac will have to change his scheme a little. Ellison should be playing damn near every snap.


Seriously, what changes can be made to the scheme? Aren't they already throwing short passes? Do they try more screens? They can't rely on the run more. I'm not being sarcastic, I agree, you can only move one or two people around. What kind of things can they do with the game plan?
RE: RE: To me the easiest plug and play  
Peppers : 9/13/2017 3:21 pm : link
In comment 13597358 Dinger said:
Quote:
In comment 13597345 Peppers said:


Quote:


Is Jones at RG and Fluker at RT. You just can't trust Jerry or Hart. I'd give them the first half of the lions game. If they struggle I make the switch to Jones and Fluker.

Also, Mac will have to change his scheme a little. Ellison should be playing damn near every snap.




Seriously, what changes can be made to the scheme? Aren't they already throwing short passes? Do they try more screens? They can't rely on the run more. I'm not being sarcastic, I agree, you can only move one or two people around. What kind of things can they do with the game plan?


Well IMO it starts with Ellison and Engram. We need to implement the 12 personnel that features two TE's. The Patriots have run this a lot over recent years and with a lot of success. Ellison needs to be our Gronk and Engram our Hernandez.

We need to be less predictable. In the first game against Dallas when Ellison came on the field we ran the ball. When Vereen was in we passed. Perkins or Vereen need to both be used as runners and receivers. Ellison needs to see the field in passing situations not only because of the obvious (our line needs the help) but also to keep the defense honest.

As I said, I'd switch out Jerry and Hart for Jones and Fluker. They are stronger and better suited to help establish the run. I'd used the 12 personnel a lot more like the Pats.. Having the bigger bodies (Ellison and Engram) on the field will only help.
RE: Dallas doesn't have this all world D Line  
joe48 : 9/13/2017 3:32 pm : link
In comment 13597113 Bold Ruler said:
Quote:
They did what they did what a standard 4 man rush almost exclusively. That's really scary. One game is one game but...

You can send 4 to go after the QB because Dallas did not respect our run game and they knew getting Eli rattled was a key to winning the game. They succeeded and we will face the same against the Lions. McAdoo needs to run the ball more than 12 times.
Realistically, unless they trade for Joe Thomas or Staley  
dpinzow : 9/13/2017 4:17 pm : link
all they can do is replace Jerry with Brett Jones and keep Ellison pinned to Hart or whoever the RT is
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