I was one of the fans that thought it was time for TC to go, and liked the idea of the Giants turning things over to a young head coach, even one with a lot to prove. There's a lot about the way he handles himself and the team I like. And 11-5 is 11-5. But you have to be the most optimistic fan in the world to look at this team and not wonder what has happened to the offense.
By the basic nfl measures - total offense and points scored - his tenure as OC was very successful. One of the arguments i see on this board is that the explanation for the regression has to do with Coughlin's influence on the offense, even though Mac was the playcaller when he was OC. I'm curious from an x's and o's perspective what exactly those differences are. has the playbook drastically changed since McAdoo became headcoach? are there routes and/or concepts he's clearly abandoned by choice? is it about run/pass balance? is it playcalling - are there things they did in '14 and '15 that they just don't do anymore?
when i looked at the stats on the passing offense and passes by distance last year, it turned out eli threw the deep ball MORE in '16 than '15, and threw some of those really short passes less. i know all about the 11 personnel last year, but that doesnt' seem to have been by design - they lost both their fullbacks in preseason. and it would be weird to make Mike Sullivan your OC if you planned to eject all of TC's ideas - if there's TC/Gilbride disciple in the NFL, it's Sullivan. but maybe some of the posters who really understand NFL offenses do see clear differences, and I'm wondering what they are.
There were a number of moves in the offseason to address those personnel issues, and the offense did leave a Giant turd in Jerry World, but I think we need more than one game before rushing to judgement. I don't know the numbers, but Mac had a number of 2 and 3 TE sets, even putting Ellison in the backfield.
McAdoo wants to do everything in small chunks and dink and dunk the defense to death, to control the clock with short passes and selective running.
Generally, I believe our running game was still mediocre those seasons, and our passing offense was a bit overrated by the way the games went
McAdoo is the complete opposite. Ball only goes 5 yards in the air, but the YAC is expected to be higher.
Generally, I believe our running game was still mediocre those seasons, and our passing offense was a bit overrated by the way the games went
It's hard to get a gauge on 14-15 because there were elements of both employed.
We were still taking lots of deep shots in those years, along with elements of the west coast.
After Coughlin was dismissed, the deep shots dried up.
If we ran Coughlin's offense today Eli would leave the field in a box.
Then what happened? As you just stated, the offensive starters in 2015 were LESS talented.
How do you explain the cliff they all fell off when Tom left?
If we ran Coughlin's offense today Eli would leave the field in a box.
I don't know but this offense may also send Eli off in a box, or at the very least to an early retirement and being shamed by NYG fans on the way out.
I know that sounds odd since that's the entire reason he came here to begin with - but given the talent we have offensively, weak OL or not, the production is far below what it should be.
I saw a lot of bad teams at least move the ball and put SOME points on the board on Sunday. There's absolutely no reason why getting a 1st down should be as fucking difficult as it's been lately. Something is wrong with this offense.
Eli is not as good either.
I love Mac. I love how he pisses off reporters and people by not being Coughlin.
I think Mac gets his team excited and ready to play (defense). The offense is shit because the core of it is old and not talented.
I think with a younger Eli or a more mobile competent QB we win on Sunday.
I think with a younger Eli or a more mobile competent QB we win on Sunday.
The defense looked thrilled on the sideline on Sunday night.
Our core is young? What do qualify as the "core"?
Flowers is 23 (1st round). Pugh is 27 (1st round). Richburg is 26 (2nd round). Evan Engram is 23 (1st round). Beckham is 24 (1st round). Our starting Running back is 22. His backup is 25.
Old? Talented is up for debate, but old?
If we ran Coughlin's offense today Eli would leave the field in a box.
LOL, and agreed!
And by the way, McAdoo's offense looks like it gives plenty of opportunities to let Eli leave in a box.
I know that sounds odd since that's the entire reason he came here to begin with - but given the talent we have offensively, weak OL or not, the production is far below what it should be.
I saw a lot of bad teams at least move the ball and put SOME points on the board on Sunday. There's absolutely no reason why getting a 1st down should be as fucking difficult as it's been lately. Something is wrong with this offense.
I equate the NFL to golf.......you drive for show, and put for dough.
Moving the ball between the 20s today should be easy....that's for show.
Inside the redzone, that's the putting part, and where you make your money, and separate the good teams from the not so good teams.
We couldn't even hit a fairway on Sunday night.
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I actually love Mac as a HC - but I'm starting to think it's time for him to put this offense in someone else's hands.
I know that sounds odd since that's the entire reason he came here to begin with - but given the talent we have offensively, weak OL or not, the production is far below what it should be.
I saw a lot of bad teams at least move the ball and put SOME points on the board on Sunday. There's absolutely no reason why getting a 1st down should be as fucking difficult as it's been lately. Something is wrong with this offense.
I equate the NFL to golf.......you drive for show, and put for dough.
Moving the ball between the 20s today should be easy....that's for show.
Inside the redzone, that's the putting part, and where you make your money, and separate the good teams from the not so good teams.
We couldn't even hit a fairway on Sunday night.
We actually had a hard time getting in between the 20's to begin with.
I'd say it's more like swinging your driver and whiffing completely. Or shanking it.
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I actually love Mac as a HC - but I'm starting to think it's time for him to put this offense in someone else's hands.
I know that sounds odd since that's the entire reason he came here to begin with - but given the talent we have offensively, weak OL or not, the production is far below what it should be.
I saw a lot of bad teams at least move the ball and put SOME points on the board on Sunday. There's absolutely no reason why getting a 1st down should be as fucking difficult as it's been lately. Something is wrong with this offense.
I equate the NFL to golf.......you drive for show, and put for dough.
Moving the ball between the 20s today should be easy....that's for show.
Inside the redzone, that's the putting part, and where you make your money, and separate the good teams from the not so good teams.
We couldn't even hit a fairway on Sunday night.
Yeah, we shouldn't have this much trouble. The feeling I get watching this team offensively right now is scary.. it's like I'm biting my nails just hoping we can avoid a 3 and out.
It's really bad.
The other thing is, and I hate to say this because Eli is one of my top 4 favorite players (along with Simms, LT, Bavaro), Eli is just not the QB he was in 2015. He's far jumpier, rushing throws, sensing pressure that isn't there, and as Joey in VA has succinctly put in, just seems to have the yips.
If we ran Coughlin's offense today Eli would leave the field in a box.
This...
I actually like Mac, and think he's masked the massive weakness that is our O-line with 11 personnel, and quick throws... sometimes I think he is a little over protective not going to other looks, and that kind of caution can make players at a disadvantage when the D thinks they know what you're doing... So gotta let it rip sometimes, but still, that helped us reach 11-5 last year, but there were warning signs midway through last year about the O... And this year, no idea WTF is happening.
My take is in these instances where the HC is a little green, you'd like to have your staff have experienced coordinators having successfully coordinated similar systems, in this case WCO, or WCO hybrids. Would have been great to have a tenured leader at OC alongside Mac to help manage and make changes, adjustments, game plans, maybe even call plays etc.
I can't help but think how in the world is a guy like Mike Sullivan is supposed to contribute to being the solution here when:
a.) He's never had success anywhere in this role.
Just read about his tenure in Tampa. Eerily similar how difficult it was for them to score points and move the ball and that was running an offense that he supposedly was raised in. Predictable was what everyone described.
b.) Never any experience with WCO...
Look at these quotes from SB Nation Article from 2014
"Repetitive, Archaic, and Stubborn. A Look back at Mike Sullivan and his Offense"
The 2013 season picked up where the previous season left off on offense: offensively. The Bucs didn't even reach 20 points until Week 6, and with the exception of their Week 11 stomping of the Falcons, where the offense scored 34 points, the Bucs didn't score more than three touchdowns in a single game all season.
https://www.bucsnation.com/2014/1/1/5253078/mike-sullivan-retrospective
Any of that sound familiar...?
Like... how do you even make this hire...? It's irresponsible and I think hubristic on the part Mac and the Giants FO to think he can be taught into it... You can't teach creativity... Maybe Sully is good as a position guy b/c that's about discipline... repetition... drills and army type mentality... but as an offensive visionary. Give me a break. He's never shown it.
Look at a team like the Cowboys... They have a running game coordinator, passing game coordinator... well respected O and D coordinators... there's 3-4 former head coaches on that staff... And with rag tag talent in some spots, especially D, you can still see they are well coached and play above their heads... A half suspended Cowboys defense looked like All Pro's against our offense.
We need to support Mac in the same way with a staff that is experienced and creative. Spags is that for the D. We MUST do the same for the O.
I am rueing the day Joe Philbon turned us down, but if it wasn't going to work with him, it should have been and should still be someone else.... NOT Mike Sullivan. Hell, I'd gladly take back Jim Fassell, maybe he has one more bit of QB magic in him, over the dregs we are experiencing.
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And which of these philosophies would you say is smarter to employ when the offensive line is as poor as ours is?
If we ran Coughlin's offense today Eli would leave the field in a box.
This...
I actually like Mac, and think he's masked the massive weakness that is our O-line with 11 personnel, and quick throws... sometimes I think he is a little over protective not going to other looks, and that kind of caution can make players at a disadvantage when the D thinks they know what you're doing... So gotta let it rip sometimes, but still, that helped us reach 11-5 last year, but there were warning signs midway through last year about the O... And this year, no idea WTF is happening.
My take is in these instances where the HC is a little green, you'd like to have your staff have experienced coordinators having successfully coordinated similar systems, in this case WCO, or WCO hybrids. Would have been great to have a tenured leader at OC alongside Mac to help manage and make changes, adjustments, game plans, maybe even call plays etc.
I can't help but think how in the world is a guy like Mike Sullivan is supposed to contribute to being the solution here when:
a.) He's never had success anywhere in this role.
Just read about his tenure in Tampa. Eerily similar how difficult it was for them to score points and move the ball and that was running an offense that he supposedly was raised in. Predictable was what everyone described.
b.) Never any experience with WCO...
Look at these quotes from SB Nation Article from 2014
"Repetitive, Archaic, and Stubborn. A Look back at Mike Sullivan and his Offense"
Quote:
Unfortunately, teams soon wisened up to the new gameplan - the Rams' James Laurinaitis in particular mentioned, in the aftermath of a game that saw them intercept Freeman four times, how easy it was to read the Bucs' offense - contributing to the team losing four of its final five games.
The 2013 season picked up where the previous season left off on offense: offensively. The Bucs didn't even reach 20 points until Week 6, and with the exception of their Week 11 stomping of the Falcons, where the offense scored 34 points, the Bucs didn't score more than three touchdowns in a single game all season.
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The issues with Sullivan's offensive coordinatorship were manyfold. From the too-slow rate of adapting (which, compared to his head coach, was still break-neck speed), to a stubbornness in refusing to help out his quarterbacks by removing the reliance on read routes and options routes, or attempting to set up third-and-short instead of third-and-long, to the predictability of the playcalling, to, ultimately, the 32nd-ranked offense in the league, Sullivan's tenure has been a failure, simple as.
https://www.bucsnation.com/2014/1/1/5253078/mike-sullivan-retrospective
Any of that sound familiar...?
Like... how do you even make this hire...? It's irresponsible and I think hubristic on the part Mac and the Giants FO to think he can be taught into it... You can't teach creativity... Maybe Sully is good as a position guy b/c that's about discipline... repetition... drills and army type mentality... but as an offensive visionary. Give me a break. He's never shown it.
Look at a team like the Cowboys... They have a running game coordinator, passing game coordinator... well respected O and D coordinators... there's 3-4 former head coaches on that staff... And with rag tag talent in some spots, especially D, you can still see they are well coached and play above their heads... A half suspended Cowboys defense looked like All Pro's against our offense.
We need to support Mac in the same way with a staff that is experienced and creative. Spags is that for the D. We MUST do the same for the O.
I am rueing the day Joe Philbon turned us down, but if it wasn't going to work with him, it should have been and should still be someone else.... NOT Mike Sullivan. Hell, I'd gladly take back Jim Fassell, maybe he has one more bit of QB magic in him, over the dregs we are experiencing.
This is false:
First of all, Sullivan only served as an Offensive Coordinator for 2 seasons with Tampa Bay, both under Greg Schiano (also his only two years as head coach).
2012:
The team set a franchise record with 5,820 yards of total offense and 389 total points scored. Good for 13th in the NFL. The previous season, 2011, they were ranked 32nd in the NFL in offense.
Josh Freeman threw for over 4000 yards, 27 TD's, with 17 INT's. Josh Freeman! The guy has never had another season like it.
Doug Martin ran for nearly 1500 yards and 11 TD's.
2013:
Here is where he gets the bad rap, but I went back and wanted to look at what happened. Let's try to remember a couple of things that were happening here, instead of just looking at the final result, which I myself did not remember until I went back and looked.
First off, in only his second year, Schiano was already wearing out his welcome and the lockerroom was deteriorating.
The MRSA outbreak that ended Lawrence Tynes career happened during training camp.
A rift opened between Schiano and Freeman during training camp, where Schiano was accused of rigging the voting for team captains, which prevented Freeman becoming a captain. The next day, Freeman skipped the team photo session and blamed it on "oversleeping". Freeman was benched three games into the regular season and accused of quitting on the team because of the situation with Schiano.
Doug Martin went on injured reserve after 6 games.
However, 3rd round pick Mike Glennon then came in for the final 13 games and set franchise rookie quarterback records for the Bucs, throwing for 2600 yards, 19 TD's, and only 9 INT's.
Despite that, The team regressed back to 32nd in the league in offense, which is what they were two years prior, the year before Sullivan took over as OC. Schiano and his entire staff were fired at the end of the season. So it wasn't like they had a good thing in place and said "Sullivan is responsible for this, let's fire him and get a new guy in here". The entire staff was fired. After a year off, Sullivan came back to the Giants in the role of Quarterback Coach and many were happy to have him, citing his successful experience as a coordinator (on BBI he was considered to have gotten a raw deal because of Schiano), and his work with Eli Manning in the same capacity in 2010-2011.
I said in "this role"... as offensive coordinator.
His overall tenure in Tampa Bay has been considered by most a failure, despite some of what was occurring around him. And yes while those weren't the greatest circumstances by and large if you pay attention to the negative tendencies that he was knocked for over there it is difficult to not see some of the same patterns-- behaviorally and statistically-- in the Giants current situation.
Also I lauded him for his positional work... That's where I think he belongs. I don't see him as an offensive visionary. He's better with a limited, defined role.
And he's never coordinated a WCO... has he ever even been on a team with a WCO? Now he's supposed to lead a WCO....? I just don't see how he is part of the solution...
If you want to keep him on staff that's fine, I'm not on a witch hunt for people's jobs, but I don't see him as capable of leading this offense. We need somebody that can, with experience, with proven creativity and success in the role.
We'll see how they look Monday, you pull the trigger then if we see a repeat of Dallas.
I know that sounds odd since that's the entire reason he came here to begin with - but given the talent we have offensively, weak OL or not, the production is far below what it should be.
I saw a lot of bad teams at least move the ball and put SOME points on the board on Sunday. There's absolutely no reason why getting a 1st down should be as fucking difficult as it's been lately. Something is wrong with this offense.
Wouldn't go so far as love, but I'm 100% in agreement with this statement otherwise. It's time for Mac to give it up - although Sullivan is a scary alternative, it's time to at least give it a shot. If that doesn't work - go find someone.
Norv Turner's on the couch somewhere, right? If not for OC, maybe a consulting role? These guys obviously need help.
I specifically mentioned him as a consultant. And while he hasn't been specifically a WCO guy, the guy is universally revered for being an offensive genius. If you're not ready to change the philosophy but could use a helping hand, that's exactly the type of guy you'd want. Anyone else would want to come in and stamp the O with their own identity.
That might be needed after the season, but it's too late now.
as far as the passing attack itself, if you look at the splits, eli threw 22 balls that traveled more than 30 yards in the air last year. he only had 12 of those in '15, and 18 in '14. and he threw more balls in the 20-30 yard range last year than in '15 or '14. and they threw fewer balls last year within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage last season than they did the season before.
when you look at the raw stats, it's hard to see much difference in the offense he ran as OC than as HC, though last years was much less productive in terms of yards per pass attempt. that's why i'm curious if there's some sort of play designs or systemic difference that people can point to.
That is very possible, but my point was that I am not going to rush to judgement after only one game. My comparison of 2015 v. 2016 was due to the sample size - each season had 16 games of data. This year we have one.
If the offense continues to be as bad as it was most of last year, then yes, it is a scheme and/or playcalling problem. I'm just not there yet, and I'd rather give the new personnel a game or 2 to gel.
same thing last week on our (5?) ...
couple that with the inability of our guards and center to sort out stunts and you are basically just waiting for the opposing team to dial 1-800-you-done.
yet when I ranted ad infinitum about G-C-G 1,2,3 in the draft half of you guys lectured me about 'to get a new WR or TE to open up the seam routes and crossing routes to create mismatches and get ODB free' being a fix-all.
Good News is that the line play integration into the overall Offense may very well be fixable schematically and in practice as well, and ODB will be back.
That said, if they don't don't make changes then we will have every right to complain.
Rants about Macadoo holding back and relying on the D, or the idea that he saved his better plays for when ODB is playing...not sure how rational that stuff is, wishful thinking actually, because if its just that mac and sully really don't get it, that would not be good.
The difference between GB and us is that Rodgers is much better moving around and they have a better line. Whether it is this or just some differences in schemes, GB does a much better job of taking deeper shots.
I see way too many shallow crosses. What did Sheppard have, a 7 yard average. That is unacceptable unless you have 3 1yd touchdowns or are catching 20 a game. Similar routes are run by Engram. The WCO is predicated on a lot of slants.
Back to chips. Jacobs and Bradshaw used to hammer defensive ends as it was basically a free shot. You can do that and then leak into the pattern. Way too many times last week, I saw our running backs run a 0 yard flare. It's a tough pass to throw and catch and the upside is getting 5 maybe 8 if it is perfect. A good passing offense will have 3 levels especially against a zone. Deep receivers that drives the safeties deeper. Intermediate routes which they can hit in the layer between the safeties and backers and if the backers are playing deep, shorter passes. We use our backs to chip and there should be time to drive the safeties and linebackers deeper so if you dump off, there is more room for the receivers running shorter, time to run.