Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner
 

Archived Thread

Tired of hearing about 11 wins

Giantfan in skinland : 9/13/2017 11:08 am
Concerned crowd: We look like trash on offense.

This is fine crowd: Calm down. We won 11 games last season. We didn't have Beckham. This was one game.


If I can put words in others mouths, I would wager that most of the "concerned" crowd isn't expecting the Giants to go 0-16 this year. I think most recognize that, just like last year, our defense is good enough to win games. Even assuming worst case scenario on offense, I'm perfectly willing to say that I think the defense is good enough to make us a playoff contender.

So, why I am I still so upset about Sunday night? BECAUSE I WANT THIS TEAM TO BE BETTER THAN A PLAYOFF CONTENDER. The goal is for the team to get better, not repeat a one and out playoff appearance.

The reason "just one game" mattered is because it was just the latest in a very long string of games. OBJ or not, our offense hasn't scored 30 points in almost 2 calendar years. We have the longest streak of not scoring 20 in the NFL by more than 3x the closest teams! This includes the Blake Bortles led Jaguars, the Cleveland Browns, the Chicago Bears, the FREAKING JETS. NYG has a legitimate argument to be considered THE WORST OFFENSE in the league. This is inexcusable with a transcendent offensive talent like OBJ.

So, for me, noting that the defense was good enough to overcome this and lead us to 11 wins last year is really a complete non-sequitur. The question is what were the things that prohibited them from doing more and have those improved. To me, last year's shortcomings were mostly on offense. We put too much on the defense and when faced with the league's top offense's, could only win with perfect performances. My reason for alarm is that the lack of creativity and inability to maintain a minimally functional offense, OBJ or not, really causes me to question whether the current combination of offensive players and coaches have the ability to improve on what we got last year. My fear that they cannot increases every time I see them on the field.

If you're fine with a ceiling of somewhere between 8-12 wins and divisional round playoff appearances, this is the team for you. I want more and I think this defense is good enough that the team and fans should expect more. However, unless something changes from the last 17 times (not one) we've seen this offense....I don't know why we would expect more. So I'll calm down when the offense gives me some reason to.
Get ready  
Vanzetti : 9/13/2017 11:14 am : link
Because if the Giants lose to the Lions, you will start hearing about how they started 0-2 in 2007 and went on to win a SB.
The "11 wins" rhetoric is directed at those posters  
Section331 : 9/13/2017 11:14 am : link
talking about McAdoo being on the hot seat. No one is arguing that 11 wins last year guarantees a playoff spot this year. Yes, Sunday night was disappointing, but it is only one game. We have a lot of new pieces on offense, it isn't crazy to wait one more game before lighting our hair on fire.
I'm in Skinland myself (non-sequitor in itself)  
GiantNatty : 9/13/2017 11:14 am : link
and I agree with you 110%. And while I liked the phrase "inability to maintain a minimally functional offense," I would go further and say the offense is - and has been for a while now - completely dysfunctional. And for me, it starts with #10 (though you're not really allowed to say that around here).
RE: I'm in Skinland myself (non-sequitor in itself)  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 11:25 am : link
In comment 13597151 GiantNatty said:
Quote:
and I agree with you 110%. And while I liked the phrase "inability to maintain a minimally functional offense," I would go further and say the offense is - and has been for a while now - completely dysfunctional. And for me, it starts with #10 (though you're not really allowed to say that around here).


Dude, 90% of the posters here think it's Eli's fault. Get out of here with that "not allowed to say that here" stuff.

It's welcomed and parroted regularly.
The problem is,  
Doomster : 9/13/2017 11:29 am : link
it appears the Giants have this attitude that there isn't a problem, or that it is one that is easily rectified, when it isn't......

As for 11 wins, one year sometimes has nothing to do with the next....

Methinks there is a coaching problem.....

We have a TE coach that can't get his TE's to block.....

We have an OL coach that has shown no improvement going into his second season......

We have an OC and HC, that didn't seem to have a game plan without OBj.....it seemed like they were counting on him, right until he went out there and tried to run a few routes.....
I can agree i'm frustrated when all we keep hearing about  
mfsd : 9/13/2017 11:37 am : link
the OL is generally that they'll be fine if they just clean up some technique issues.

The problem with the right side of our OL Sunday night didn't look like a few technique issues. It looked like they got their asses kicked by better football players.
RE: RE: I'm in Skinland myself (non-sequitor in itself)  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 11:41 am : link
In comment 13597177 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13597151 GiantNatty said:


Quote:


and I agree with you 110%. And while I liked the phrase "inability to maintain a minimally functional offense," I would go further and say the offense is - and has been for a while now - completely dysfunctional. And for me, it starts with #10 (though you're not really allowed to say that around here).



Dude, 90% of the posters here think it's Eli's fault. Get out of here with that "not allowed to say that here" stuff.

It's welcomed and parroted regularly.


I think he was exaggerating when he said "not allowed", and was referring to an idea that there is band of merry men who get their balls in a real twist when any of the blame gets cast at Eli's feet.

Criticism of Eli really does trigger some bad mental/emotional shit in certain posters.
The unsettling fact is that  
Reb8thVA : 9/13/2017 11:50 am : link
many of those wins were not the decisive kind, the ones you look at with comfort knowing you were clearly the better team. Many of those wins were by less than a field goal that could easily have gone the other way. Normally, you would accept such good fortune and be optimistic about the future. However, its hard to be optimistic when the same problems continue to rear their head year after year. We've seen this script for the last 3-5 years, yet we seem even farther away from solving them. Under these conditions its hard to be reassured by last years 11 wins.

thank you, hoya  
GiantNatty : 9/13/2017 11:54 am : link
I can say from experience that in the past, EVERY single time I have posted (what I like to think is objective) criticism of Eli, I have been lambasted. Like even personally attacked from people who know nothing about me that really ought to have no place in a fan forum.

I have noticed though, for the first time this week, that the tide is turning. Criticism about Eli's play is becoming acceptable. I guess it's become obvious at this point that he just isn't playing very well and that only so much blame can be attributed to the line.
There are people that have been calling for Eli's head every year he's  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 12:02 pm : link
been here at some point or another. Coughlin's too.

How many guys have been run off their teams due to being done, or sorry, only to go light it up somewhere else.

Alex Smith comes to mind, and on that note, so does Andy Reid.

You guys look at guys as being "done" as in nothing left. Eli is 36.

I look at it as a poor fit, although there's plenty left in the tank.

As much as I love Eli and want him to retire, part of me wishes he'd go to another team that knows how to utilize his strengths just to shut people up.
I get peopke are concerned abpuy the offense  
nygiants16 : 9/13/2017 12:09 pm : link
i get people are nervous and want to see a high flying offense that scores 25 per game but since when did winning 11 games not matter?

when did winning not become the most important stat?

i get it fans want to see a team dominate the other team in every single game, but you can win with a great defense and average offense, broncos did it a couple of years ago...

i dont know for me i dont care how they win games, they could win 6-0 and i would be happy, but thats just me
RE: I get peopke are concerned abpuy the offense  
jtfuoco : 9/13/2017 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13597247 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
i get people are nervous and want to see a high flying offense that scores 25 per game but since when did winning 11 games not matter?

when did winning not become the most important stat?

i get it fans want to see a team dominate the other team in every single game, but you can win with a great defense and average offense, broncos did it a couple of years ago...

i dont know for me i dont care how they win games, they could win 6-0 and i would be happy, but thats just me


I am happy with a 6-0 win but the problem is two fold nobody really believes that this defense is going to keep the elite teams from scoring under 20 points in a majority of the games they play in and unless the offense gets fixed this team wont go far this season. Secondly the organization seems to be so stubborn that it wont try anything to solve the problem it has to recognize it has. I keep hearing that continuity will fix it and I don't see how it does at this point.
for example the whole world knows that Flowers struggles with a speed rush but the Giants seem to refuse to put a TE on that side and chip the DE to help him out Why?
RE: RE: I get peopke are concerned abpuy the offense  
nygiants16 : 9/13/2017 12:30 pm : link
In comment 13597267 jtfuoco said:
Quote:
In comment 13597247 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


i get people are nervous and want to see a high flying offense that scores 25 per game but since when did winning 11 games not matter?

when did winning not become the most important stat?

i get it fans want to see a team dominate the other team in every single game, but you can win with a great defense and average offense, broncos did it a couple of years ago...

i dont know for me i dont care how they win games, they could win 6-0 and i would be happy, but thats just me



I am happy with a 6-0 win but the problem is two fold nobody really believes that this defense is going to keep the elite teams from scoring under 20 points in a majority of the games they play in and unless the offense gets fixed this team wont go far this season. Secondly the organization seems to be so stubborn that it wont try anything to solve the problem it has to recognize it has. I keep hearing that continuity will fix it and I don't see how it does at this point.
for example the whole world knows that Flowers struggles with a speed rush but the Giants seem to refuse to put a TE on that side and chip the DE to help him out Why?


and i get that part, and i get being frustrated...

Tired too  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/13/2017 12:35 pm : link
But of the whining.

Giants fans are never happier or more active than when there's something to act miserable about.
and to the op  
nygiants16 : 9/13/2017 12:46 pm : link
if the giants won on sunday night are you complaining about the offense?
RE: Get ready  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/13/2017 12:54 pm : link
In comment 13597148 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Because if the Giants lose to the Lions, you will start hearing about how they started 0-2 in 2007 and went on to win a SB.

Is that not historically accurate? Not only did they start 0-2 in 2007, but the defense looked so abysmal that people wanted Spagnuolo fired two weeks into his tenure.

The point is, there's a lot of impetuous fans on here who refuse to exercise any patience. Or worse, they derive their own self-esteem from the performance of the team to such an extent that they are personally offended when the team doesn't perform well enough to make them feel happy.
RE: RE: Get ready  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/13/2017 12:59 pm : link
In comment 13597314 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13597148 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Because if the Giants lose to the Lions, you will start hearing about how they started 0-2 in 2007 and went on to win a SB.


Is that not historically accurate? Not only did they start 0-2 in 2007, but the defense looked so abysmal that people wanted Spagnuolo fired two weeks into his tenure.

The point is, there's a lot of impetuous fans on here who refuse to exercise any patience. Or worse, they derive their own self-esteem from the performance of the team to such an extent that they are personally offended when the team doesn't perform well enough to make them feel happy.


Creepily accurate.
RE: There are people that have been calling for Eli's head every year he's  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/13/2017 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13597236 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
been here at some point or another. Coughlin's too.

How many guys have been run off their teams due to being done, or sorry, only to go light it up somewhere else.

Alex Smith comes to mind, and on that note, so does Andy Reid.

You guys look at guys as being "done" as in nothing left. Eli is 36.

I look at it as a poor fit, although there's plenty left in the tank.

As much as I love Eli and want him to retire, part of me wishes he'd go to another team that knows how to utilize his strengths just to shut people up.

I agree, I wouldn't mind him going to another team just to shut people up.

We're probably talking about different people though.
RE: RE: There are people that have been calling for Eli's head every year he's  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 1:09 pm : link
In comment 13597326 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13597236 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


been here at some point or another. Coughlin's too.

How many guys have been run off their teams due to being done, or sorry, only to go light it up somewhere else.

Alex Smith comes to mind, and on that note, so does Andy Reid.

You guys look at guys as being "done" as in nothing left. Eli is 36.

I look at it as a poor fit, although there's plenty left in the tank.

As much as I love Eli and want him to retire, part of me wishes he'd go to another team that knows how to utilize his strengths just to shut people up.


I agree, I wouldn't mind him going to another team just to shut people up.

We're probably talking about different people though.


Trust me, if he went somewhere else and lit it up you'd be hearing all about it.
Many of those 11 wins could have easily gone the other way  
Bluesbreaker : 9/13/2017 1:21 pm : link
We watched this Defense jell to the point of dominance only to watch them finally fold up against GB it was quite clear we had to fix the offensive line the offense couldn't put 20 points on the board Even with basically the LT of offense
in OBJ who if not for some miraculous plays we would have not made the play offs '
Even the defense made some miraculous holds in the end but the pass rush went down hill once JPP was done for the year
So what did we do ? NOTHING
I will say it again Mac's offensive philosophy doesn't play to Eli's strengths and its because of the lack of a run game and inability tp pass block.
I think Eli still has it in him to play at a high level  
Giantfan in skinland : 9/13/2017 1:34 pm : link
I don't think deterioration of his skills is at the root of what's happening here.

To me, the problem is two fold:

1) I don't think Mac is a good OC. I see a fundamental inability to effectively scheme for an opponent and to find ways to manufacture offense/get the ball in the hands of his playmakers. Really, it shouldn't come as a shock that a guy who has never been an OC at any level isn't fully prepared to be an OC at the NFL level. Our offense is entirely dependent on Beckham's YAC. When teams commit to keeping the ball out of his hands or limiting that/when he's not on the field, Mac seems to have no idea what to do. Why did they have success with him as an OC? Well, because I think the philosophical changes he brought to the offense based on his background in GB needed to be forced on Coughlin, who in turn, took those principles and built a functional NFL offense with them. The two of them were good for each other in a lot of ways. Without Coughlin's input....you see some very amateurish warts coming to the surface: predictable personnel groupings/seeming lack of self scouting (which TC is meticulous about), lack of answers for personnel deficiencies that are submarining the entire unit, and the sum of the whole being less than the sum of the parts. I think Mac is fine as an HC, but I think he needs someone else to be running the offense.

2. Eli is not responding well in a bad situation. Quite simply, its in his head. He's anticipating pressure and has no faith in the OL (understandably). As a result, he's not playing with confidence. It's not that he was never pressured before...it's just that it wasn't what he expected every time he dropped back. So yeah, put him in a better situation with a different playcaller and I would fully expect much better results. It's also why I think his performance was so much better in GB. It was a mental change. He went in with an edge/expecting to play well because of his past ability to turn it up a notch.

So I think the two things are feeding each other at this point. Mac's not helping and neither is Eli. Better performance by the players (including Eli)/upgraded personnel (particularly OL and RB) would help...but I still think Mac's deficiencies as an OC would show. Conversely, there are times when the playcall is good and there's a chance for a play to be made....the players need to do it....and of late...they haven't.
RE: There are people that have been calling for Eli's head every year he's  
Thunderstruck27 : 9/13/2017 1:36 pm : link
In comment 13597236 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
been here at some point or another. Coughlin's too.

How many guys have been run off their teams due to being done, or sorry, only to go light it up somewhere else.

Alex Smith comes to mind, and on that note, so does Andy Reid.

You guys look at guys as being "done" as in nothing left. Eli is 36.

I look at it as a poor fit, although there's plenty left in the tank.

As much as I love Eli and want him to retire, part of me wishes he'd go to another team that knows how to utilize his strengths just to shut people up.


This is a good point...the Jags looked good in week 1 if you know what I'm sayin...
RE: RE: Get ready  
Giantfan in skinland : 9/13/2017 2:25 pm : link
In comment 13597314 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13597148 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Because if the Giants lose to the Lions, you will start hearing about how they started 0-2 in 2007 and went on to win a SB.


Is that not historically accurate? Not only did they start 0-2 in 2007, but the defense looked so abysmal that people wanted Spagnuolo fired two weeks into his tenure.

The point is, there's a lot of impetuous fans on here who refuse to exercise any patience. Or worse, they derive their own self-esteem from the performance of the team to such an extent that they are personally offended when the team doesn't perform well enough to make them feel happy.


There's a difference between an unwillingness to exercise patience (judging a DC two games into his tenure) and calling a spade a spade (accepting that there's a problem with an offense that has gone 7 games without scoring 20 points and 17 without scoring 30).

We can't change it as fans....so I'm not going to let it impact my life. But I think you're kidding yourself if you're not worried about the impact this offense will have on our ability to win in the playoffs. And I don't think that's being reactionary. They have a track record of this now. To me, it's naive to think it's suddenly going to get better than it is to think it will not. They had a whole offseason to make changes and improve. Did you see signs that it had done anything but get worse?
You know  
blueblood'11 : 9/13/2017 3:09 pm : link
If they had played a spirited game on offense and lost a hard fought battle I don't think anyone would be so concerned. But the manner in which they played was ugly, and appeared to be a continuation of what saw last year. And the image of Snacks Harrison standing on the sideline shaking his head in a bit of disgust said it all.
Yup.  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 3:10 pm : link
.
Bingo  
Giantfan in skinland : 9/13/2017 3:13 pm : link
.
People see things that don't exist when they're emotional.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/13/2017 3:26 pm : link
In 2016 the hot topic was how Steve spagnuolo couldn't coach and doesn't know how to scheme and armchair coach this or that. Despite the fact that he had fielded excellent defenses before.

They get players the next year, and what a shock, the defense is good and nobody imagines evidence that he can't coach or "scheme".


Can you expand on that?  
Giantfan in skinland : 9/13/2017 4:03 pm : link
What are people seeing that isn't there?
RE: Can you expand on that?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/13/2017 6:23 pm : link
In comment 13597704 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
What are people seeing that isn't there?


Assessing his ability to understand offensive football and distilling that into "he can't coach". As if anyone here would have the means to make that conclusion beyond looking at final scores of past games. It's an often-made mistake around here.
There is a Big Difference between....  
Triple "G" : 9/13/2017 6:23 pm : link
Winning and Beating a team. The Giants "WON" 11 games last season but I cant think of 1 game where the Giants "BEAT" Their opponent. I'm sure the Owners noticed that one point too last season

Ponder That
An inability to score 20 pts  
joeinpa : 9/13/2017 8:27 pm : link
In today s NFL speaks volumes about this offensive line.

This is not one game we are speaking about. It is 2 plus years. It s not technique, it s talent. Player talent or coaching talent, I don t know.

But it hasn t been fixed with this group yet. You have to be very optimistic and or patient to think it will get better.
RE: An inability to score 20 pts  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/14/2017 9:10 am : link
In comment 13598077 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In today s NFL speaks volumes about this offensive line.

This is not one game we are speaking about. It is 2 plus years. It s not technique, it s talent. Player talent or coaching talent, I don t know.

But it hasn t been fixed with this group yet. You have to be very optimistic and or patient to think it will get better.


I'm so used to people complaining about a team flaw that the exaggerations render the complaints dull and void. Of course it can get better quickly. The defense went from the trash can to top 5 in one year by aggressively attacking the problem and making good decisions with resources.
Let's really look at the situation  
montanagiant : 9/14/2017 9:34 am : link
1) We didn't lose, we got completely dominated on Offense and beat on Defense. The domination on our Offense came from a Defense that is avg at best when 100%. Problem is they were out both DE's, a key starting LB, and a makeshift secondary

2) We were outcoached on both sides of the ball

3) this continues a trend from last year where the play calling is abysmal in spots and completely out of sync with the game time situation.

4) The running game while not spectacular is abandoned way too early

5) All of this happened after this team added key offensive players and had 8 months to strategize for it

The "it's only one game" is inapplicable when taken in context of everything else
RE: Let's really look at the situation  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/15/2017 7:56 pm : link
In comment 13598328 montanagiant said:
Quote:
1) We didn't lose, we got completely dominated on Offense and beat on Defense. The domination on our Offense came from a Defense that is avg at best when 100%. Problem is they were out both DE's, a key starting LB, and a makeshift secondary

2) We were outcoached on both sides of the ball

3) this continues a trend from last year where the play calling is abysmal in spots and completely out of sync with the game time situation.

4) The running game while not spectacular is abandoned way too early

5) All of this happened after this team added key offensive players and had 8 months to strategize for it

The "it's only one game" is inapplicable when taken in context of everything else


Following this line of logic a bit further, then it's unacceptable for any team to lose the first game of the season since everyone has free agency and 8 months to prepare for it.

Too much time is spent talking about scheme and playcalling when the problem is execution. There is no scheme that makes up for no blocking. You don't win without players. There's nothing that you can write on a piece of paper that works around the problem of players that aren't good enough at this level losing a game to a playoff-level team.
RE: RE: RE: There are people that have been calling for Eli's head every year he's  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/15/2017 8:23 pm : link
In comment 13597344 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13597326 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13597236 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


been here at some point or another. Coughlin's too.

How many guys have been run off their teams due to being done, or sorry, only to go light it up somewhere else.

Alex Smith comes to mind, and on that note, so does Andy Reid.

You guys look at guys as being "done" as in nothing left. Eli is 36.

I look at it as a poor fit, although there's plenty left in the tank.

As much as I love Eli and want him to retire, part of me wishes he'd go to another team that knows how to utilize his strengths just to shut people up.


I agree, I wouldn't mind him going to another team just to shut people up.

We're probably talking about different people though.



Trust me, if he went somewhere else and lit it up you'd be hearing all about it.

I don't doubt that.
RE: RE: Let's really look at the situation  
montanagiant : 9/16/2017 2:22 am : link
In comment 13600025 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13598328 montanagiant said:


Quote:


1) We didn't lose, we got completely dominated on Offense and beat on Defense. The domination on our Offense came from a Defense that is avg at best when 100%. Problem is they were out both DE's, a key starting LB, and a makeshift secondary

2) We were outcoached on both sides of the ball

3) this continues a trend from last year where the play calling is abysmal in spots and completely out of sync with the game time situation.

4) The running game while not spectacular is abandoned way too early

5) All of this happened after this team added key offensive players and had 8 months to strategize for it

The "it's only one game" is inapplicable when taken in context of everything else



Following this line of logic a bit further, then it's unacceptable for any team to lose the first game of the season since everyone has free agency and 8 months to prepare for it.

Too much time is spent talking about scheme and playcalling when the problem is execution. There is no scheme that makes up for no blocking. You don't win without players. There's nothing that you can write on a piece of paper that works around the problem of players that aren't good enough at this level losing a game to a playoff-level team.
That is not following the line of logic given the fact we saw the same putrid Offense last year
The way this offense is built  
joe48 : 9/16/2017 6:06 am : link
It is hard to sustain drives in a game. As has been said many times over we are easy to defend. The lack of consistent blocking in the run and pass game causes too many 3 and outs. The Cowboys moved the ball down the field with Elliott even though overrated Dak could not hit the broadside of a barn. We lack the ability to string together first downs and this puts pressure on on all aspects of the game. Cowboys did an excellent job on special teams pinning us back deep which limited our inept offense even more.
Giants need more from special teams in the return game until they improve on offense. Like many posters have said Eli is a bad fit for this scheme and OL. That is why OBJ not playing hurts us. He gets open and puts defenders back on their heels, He gives this team the JUICE.
Back to the Corner