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I'm sorry but the problem is Eli

moaltch : 9/13/2017 2:19 pm
The problem is the qb. In the two recent Superbowl seasons, the qb played at a hall of fame caliber, especially during the post season. We cant take that away from him. We can NEVER take that away from him. However, he is now a shell of that guy. He's jittery in the pocket, he cant move, he cant even step away from pressure, he rushes his reads. Even when he has adequate time, he still doesn't go through his progressions, and takes dump offs prematurely. Unfortunately when you have a below avg line and a below avg running game, the qb must pick up the slack Our qb does not. In fact, he's now become part of the problem.It started last year in the Minnesota game. Check the tape of Eli. Until the Giants improve the line and/or the running game, Eli will be a BELOW AVERAGE qb in this offense. We need someone with mobility or else we will not be able to make another Superbowl run, in spite of the current stellar defense.

Sorry in advance to all the Eli apologists
...  
Dodge : 9/13/2017 2:20 pm : link
I can agree with that.
Yeah,  
Keith : 9/13/2017 2:21 pm : link
unfortunately I think you are right.
So  
crick n NC : 9/13/2017 2:22 pm : link
You say Eli is the problem, then admit that the OL needs to be improved. What do you expect from a QB who doesn't trust his OL, and for good reason
.  
arcarsenal : 9/13/2017 2:24 pm : link
I hate to admit it, but I'm starting to consider that it might be true.

Even with a weak OL, there's no reason why this offense should be THIS bad. We've fielded passable offenses on a few occasions with subpar offensive lines - Eli is the constant and it's possible he's just hitting that wall.

I hope not - but I do think we're at a point now where we have to consider the possibility that maybe it's not McAdoo or the OL.. maybe it's the QB.
I disagree - I think it starts and ends with the OL  
PatersonPlank : 9/13/2017 2:26 pm : link
The QB play, the Running Game, the functioning of the WR's. They are all interconnected through the OL.

However I am getting tired of all these threads and no longer feel like arguing.
RE: I disagree - I think it starts and ends with the OL  
PatersonPlank : 9/13/2017 2:27 pm : link
In comment 13597486 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
The QB play, the Running Game, the functioning of the WR's. They are all interconnected through the OL.

However I am getting tired of all these threads and no longer feel like arguing.


And i'd just point you to Hitdog's thread below, on how easy the crappy OL makes it on the defense.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 9/13/2017 2:28 pm : link
There's a huge discrepancy between thinking Eli has played poorly and thinking we should replace him.
I'm amazed that anyone could see otherwise.  
NorwoodWideRight : 9/13/2017 2:28 pm : link
The OL stinks but, when it is able to hold things together enough to give Eli adequate protection, he breaks down. I don't want to hear any of this "he doesn't trust his OL, so he's skittish" nonsense. Either the man is a HOF calibre QB or he's not.

Eli has regressed. He regressed badly. Ever since they started mussing with his footwork. And now it's been over two years and Eli is what he is.
The OL is terrible  
family progtitioner : 9/13/2017 2:28 pm : link
They let up pressure with even 3 man D fronts. There's nowhere to throw the ball. That said, Eli does not move in the pocket nearly as well as he used to.
You contradict yourself.  
Beezer : 9/13/2017 2:28 pm : link

You say Eli is the problem.

Then you say that he will not be able to do his job UNTIL the O-line and running game are fixed.

Meaning, when they are, Eli would be fine.

By the ay, Eli actually eluded the rush several times Sunday night. There was a shit ton of pressure on several plays. More times than not, they didn't put him on the ground.
The likelihood  
crick n NC : 9/13/2017 2:29 pm : link
That there is one player causing this much malfunction is unlikely. It's more than likely a combination of some things.
RE: I disagree - I think it starts and ends with the OL  
jestersdead : 9/13/2017 2:30 pm : link
In comment 13597486 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
The QB play, the Running Game, the functioning of the WR's. They are all interconnected through the OL.

However I am getting tired of all these threads and no longer feel like arguing.


C'mon how could it be the o-line's fault? Its clear that Eli is not handing the RBs the ball in the proper position for them to take advantage of the huge holes created by the o-line..../sarcasm

Seriously, if the "problem" is the lack of mobility from the QB position, why wouldn't you address the line and have better protection for a pocket passing QB? To me, thats on the GM and coaching for thinking they could survive with a poor o-line and immobile QB
I'm sorry but there's more than just one problem  
Giantology : 9/13/2017 2:30 pm : link
Yes, Eli's play is contributing to the overall problem. But there's no way you can discount the playcalling and scheme, the play of the OL, etc.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/13/2017 2:31 pm : link
There are a lot of bad OL's in this league.

This isn't a problem unique to NYG.

I'm not saying it's ALL Eli, but I don't think it's crazy to wonder if maybe he's part of the problem.

If any sort of rush gets through, he bails on the play and just falls to the ground because he has zero mobility or ability to extend a play. It's a lot to ask any OL in this league to hold clean pockets on nearly every pass play.
It's really hard to step up and avoid pressure  
gmen9892 : 9/13/2017 2:32 pm : link
When it is literally coming from everywhere. If it was one side of the line that was the problem, I think we could lay a lot of the blame on Eli. Kind of hard to maneuver in the pocket when, on any given play, pressure could be coming from the left edge, the right edge, or right up the middle.

Eli is 1000% jittery, but its hard to place all the blame on a guy that hasnt had a solid offensive line in 7+ years. Find me a good QB that has had this bad of an OL for this long.
hit the nail on the head  
jlukes : 9/13/2017 2:32 pm : link
saying Eli had been poor the last year+ is non a shot at what he has done in the past - it's just saying how things currently are.

Peyton wasn't a Top 10 QB when he was in Denver - doesn't mean he wasn't one of the best QBs of all time though.

And he isn't contradicting himself. He is saying if we had 2007-2012 Eli, than the no running game and no OL wouldn't be an issue. Heck, we had a terrible running game in 2011 when when Eli carried us to his second SB.

But because Eli has regressed, Eli, in his current form cannot function in the current offense.
80%  
AcidTest : 9/13/2017 2:33 pm : link
OL, 20% Eli. Teams are getting pressure and stopping the run with four or five, meaning that Eli is often throwing against six or seven defenders. What QB can succeed in that situation?

But Elli does look hesitant and skittish. He is missing throws even when he has the time, undoubtedly because he's been banged around so much that he expects it to happen on every play. As someone said, he's beginning to look like David Carr.
This Eli was much different in the pocket than the Eli we have today  
jlukes : 9/13/2017 2:34 pm : link

as a fan I began  
GmeninPSL : 9/13/2017 2:34 pm : link
to see the regression last season and it has already carried over! He missed so, so many wide open receivers last season and never remember him rushing plays the way has last year and on Sunday night. No QB likes getting hit but Eli carries it to the extreme! I'll give him credit because he's found a way to show up EVERY SUNDAY for these last 13-14 years but if he was just able to buy extra time many of these games would have had a different result.

I LOVE Eli as a player and as a human being and what he's done for this organization and its fan base these many years but he may be at the point of no return? nd with no improvements in the Offensive line, Eli has gotten trigger happy and dumps the ball off at the first sign of the pocket collapsing.

I don't see more than this year and next year of Eli being the Giants starting QB and let me be the first one to say I will miss him! But this is not the same Eli!
RE: hit the nail on the head  
Dodge : 9/13/2017 2:34 pm : link
In comment 13597511 jlukes said:
Quote:
saying Eli had been poor the last year+ is non a shot at what he has done in the past - it's just saying how things currently are.

Peyton wasn't a Top 10 QB when he was in Denver - doesn't mean he wasn't one of the best QBs of all time though.

And he isn't contradicting himself. He is saying if we had 2007-2012 Eli, than the no running game and no OL wouldn't be an issue. Heck, we had a terrible running game in 2011 when when Eli carried us to his second SB.

But because Eli has regressed, Eli, in his current form cannot function in the current offense.


This.
When he seems to have  
moaltch : 9/13/2017 2:35 pm : link
adequate time, is he choosing to take the dump offs too quickly or is it the scheme? Thats a serious question. I think he's gotten too jittery. Anytime he gets hit early, his game changes
RE: 80%  
NorwoodWideRight : 9/13/2017 2:35 pm : link
In comment 13597512 AcidTest said:
Quote:
OL, 20% Eli. Teams are getting pressure and stopping the run with four or five, meaning that Eli is often throwing against six or seven defenders. What QB can succeed in that situation?

But Elli does look hesitant and skittish. He is missing throws even when he has the time, undoubtedly because he's been banged around so much that he expects it to happen on every play. As someone said, he's beginning to look like David Carr.


More like 60-40 OL/Eli if you count his dunderheaded plays, missing open receivers, throwing behind receivers or not hitting them in stride.
Completely disagree...  
ZGiants98 : 9/13/2017 2:36 pm : link
Eli has lost nothing on his fastball. He still has zip on his throws... his one deep pass he actually OVERTHREW a receiver. He was eluding a ton of pressure in the pocket. If anything he's more intelligent now (football wise) than he's ever been. People think we had a shit line in 2011 but that line actually came together down the stretch.

Eli has never had a line this bad. I think if you're one of those people that automatically assumed the two worst offensive tackles in football were going to improve this year, or you're one of those people that thinks a blocking TE and a blocking receiver( Marshall) were going to fix the line... you're now going to shift blame to Eli because you are "shocked".

Nope. It's still the line folks. The number two issue is the system. We are basically running a vanilla' down version of the west coast. It's 2017. Teams know how to plan for that by now.
It's certainly possible that Eli is the root of the problem.  
Section331 : 9/13/2017 2:37 pm : link
He's 36, and not all QB's age at the same arc. That said, I am not ready to make that judgement based on one bad game.

And, as I said in a couple of other threads, I don't want to hear how badly he played last year. I think last year's performance is entirely blown out of proportion by many here. I'm not arguing Eli was all-pro material last year, but the facts remain that he had dogshit TE's, only slightly better RB's, a terrible OL, and one WR he could rely on. You could bring back a 25 year old Johnny Unitas and he would struggle.

Let's give this a chance to play out. Yes, Eli didn't play well, but it is one game, and one game without his best player. Relax.
welcome to the club!  
GiantNatty : 9/13/2017 2:37 pm : link

I've been saying this for years now (and I love the guy). Though I would disagree with you and say he's been part of the problem for several years now, whether it be coming up small in big spots, or making ridiculous clock-management errors, or throwing brutal interceptions, etc. It's been happening for years.

There are maybe 2-3 other QBs in the league who simply can't run for a first down. Flacco (but even he is hard to bring down)? Palmer? Glennon? It's as if the game has evolved to the point where a qb must have some mobility and Eli simply doesn't. He seems like a relic - and it aint pretty.
I meant to include in my Eli defense  
Section331 : 9/13/2017 2:38 pm : link
that he still ended up with 4,000 yards and 26 TD's, despite the personnel shortcomings he had to deal with.
Brady and Eli retiring at the end of the year  
Post Time : 9/13/2017 2:39 pm : link
will allow them to enter the HoF together...
He's certainly part of the problem  
UConn4523 : 9/13/2017 2:40 pm : link
the question is how much of it is him. I'm guessing it's more than people are comfortable coming to terms with.
Name one QB  
djstat : 9/13/2017 2:41 pm : link
Who has performed at a winning level with such a mediocre line? He is jittery because he had no time to throw
And the mistakes...  
ZGiants98 : 9/13/2017 2:41 pm : link
The rushed throws...the "jitteriness" is the same shit we've been watching every year since year one. He's always been that guy and it's compounded when he's under pressure or is expecting pressure. Every season. Every year. 75% completion percentage Sunday isn't really screaming awful actually. We've seen him much worse. What would people be saying if he had a "classic 4 pick game". I'm sure one of those are coming this year too.
Isn't this the same thing we heard before the '14 season  
BillT : 9/13/2017 2:42 pm : link
He then threw 35 TD passes and 30 the next year. Ok, he's three years older now. But it was wrong then and I think it's wrong now. You give him adequate protection and he'll thorw another 30.
RE: Name one QB  
jlukes : 9/13/2017 2:43 pm : link
In comment 13597531 djstat said:
Quote:
Who has performed at a winning level with such a mediocre line? He is jittery because he had no time to throw


Rothlisberger
Rodgers
Brady
Peyton
Heck, add 2011 Eli to my list  
jlukes : 9/13/2017 2:44 pm : link
.
Once your internal clock  
area junc : 9/13/2017 2:45 pm : link
goes haywire its almost impossible to get it back. Hes been getting the sh#t beat out of him since 2011. Thats when the OL took a nosedive. We are going on 7 years of this nonsense. Its taken its toll.

Hurrying even when u have time is the tell tale sign. Hes cooked.
It's a complex problem - it doesn't have a simple answer  
jcn56 : 9/13/2017 2:45 pm : link
There is no singular 'problem' - except for the offensive output.

Feeding into that problem are numerous smaller problems - the OL isn't very good or consistent. Our best player is injured. Eli is immobile, complicating the first problem. His immobility and that OL instability are forcing him to make bad decisions. Playcalling hasn't been able to help scheme around all these issues.

Don't try to take a complicated matter and turn it into a simple one for convenience, it doesn't solve anything.

Eli apologist here...  
trueblueinpw : 9/13/2017 2:51 pm : link
Some counter points: Eli looked terrific in the one playoff game last year. That loss in GB was not Eli's fault.

How many QBs would look good in this McAdoo offense? Russel Wilson? Aaron Rodgers? Maybe, but those guys have completely different skill sets and in the case of Rodgers you're talking about a guy who is one of the best ever mobile (or any other type) QBs. Eli can read defenses and he can pick your defense apart from the pocket, he can throw the deep ball as well as anyone in the league and he's lethal with play action. Does that skill set sound like a match for McAdoo's offense?

How good do think Tom Brady would be in this offense? Seriously? I think Brady would be about as bad as Eli in this offense.

Finally, can anyone point to a game since McAdoo arrived where our offense gameplan was at all innovative? Sure, OBJ can take a slant to the house but how else does this team score?
Its a very hard pill to swallow  
beatrixkiddo : 9/13/2017 2:53 pm : link
I find myself agreeing with both Section and Area junc.

Eli has always been erratic as a player, he changes week to week. Its how he always has been. I want to say relax, he will figure it out, take into consideration how he had no weapons but OBJ last year and he still performed ok. But, Eli's weaknesses are compounded by the bad play calling, an inconsistent OL, and just time catching up to him. It's a bad mix, and while I certainly hope he can right the ship, i worry about his internal clock turning into David Carr, I have seen more bad Eli over the past year than the good Eli, I hope he has another run in him before his time is up, I'll be sad as a Giant if I don't get to witness him work his magic in the playoffs one last time.
I don't blame Eli for the woes on the O. But ....  
Beer Man : 9/13/2017 2:53 pm : link
Eli may be the wrong QB for the Mac Attack. The GB offense that Mac has implemented works best with a somewhat mobile QB. Eli (like his brother Peyton) is a Pocket passer, and experiences his best success when he has a clean pocket to step up into. Given that Mac pushed hard to trade up for Mahones, I am guessing that he feels the same regarding his QB. The challenge for Mac, is how to change his offense to best utilize the personnel that he currently has. Its really on Mac's shoulder to find the O-scheme that gives him the best chance for success given the skills of his current players. And the solution is not replace Eli with a retread like Geno.
He's not THE problem  
Greg from LI : 9/13/2017 2:53 pm : link
But I think he's much more of an issue than his fan club will ever admit. I never understood why so many people were so certain that he'd play through his late 30s without any significant decline. His natural aging curve is only exacerbated by the poor OL play, not caused by it.
Its about confidence  
Bluesbreaker : 9/13/2017 2:55 pm : link
Eli see's it in practice he lived through it and he knows
damn well the O-line shits the bed .
Then Dallas with 4 lineman dismantle the offense seriously
it's not that hard to see and expecting Eli to make a difference is delusional I agree he did not play well but
he was hearing steps even when they were not there he didn't go through his progressions very well he will see the tape
but its easy to pick out 3-4 plays where he missed seeing a
guy open . For the most part these guys are not getting
open . He took what the Cowboys gave him .
He will play better Monday Night we will win the game if the O-line plays like starters .
RE: Its about confidence  
NorwoodWideRight : 9/13/2017 3:00 pm : link
In comment 13597558 Bluesbreaker said:
Quote:
Eli see's it in practice he lived through it and he knows
damn well the O-line shits the bed .
Then Dallas with 4 lineman dismantle the offense seriously
it's not that hard to see and expecting Eli to make a difference is delusional I agree he did not play well but
he was hearing steps even when they were not there he didn't go through his progressions very well he will see the tape
but its easy to pick out 3-4 plays where he missed seeing a
guy open . For the most part these guys are not getting
open . He took what the Cowboys gave him .
He will play better Monday Night we will win the game if the O-line plays like starters .


I appreciate the haiku, but unfortunately you're not paying attention.
trueblue  
beatrixkiddo : 9/13/2017 3:00 pm : link
I get the sense that the front office has already started implementing the coach and personnel they want here to succeed in the future (Looking beyond Eli). Looking around the league, so many teams never planned or took the steps to plan for life after their franchise QB's left and have had a hard time finding an identity since, I feel the Giants may have done Eli a disservice by not fully investing / committing to building the team around his strengths over the past couple years, and instead have spent resources on putting in place a system that will be easier to transition to for life beyond eli.
In some games he's been the problem  
JonC : 9/13/2017 3:02 pm : link
in others his performance has been a symptom of the OL problems, lack of talent at RB, WR opposite OB, and an offense that certainly appears to be too easy to prepare for and read pre-snap.

People have been saying the same shit  
WillVAB : 9/13/2017 3:04 pm : link
About Eli for 10 years and that's no exaggeration.
RE: Once your internal clock  
Section331 : 9/13/2017 3:05 pm : link
In comment 13597540 area junc said:
Quote:
goes haywire its almost impossible to get it back. Hes been getting the sh#t beat out of him since 2011. Thats when the OL took a nosedive. We are going on 7 years of this nonsense. Its taken its toll.

Hurrying even when u have time is the tell tale sign. Hes cooked.


That is my concern too, but I'm not ready to call him cooked. If the OL has been a problem since 2011 (and I agree with you), Eli had pretty good years in 2014 and 2015. Even last year wasn't nearly as bad as many here are making it out to be. So much of what we are making this judgement on is one game. Eli has been this franchise's rock for 13 years, and has brought us 2 SB titles. I think he deserves more than one game to prove he still has it.
My guess ...  
Beer Man : 9/13/2017 3:05 pm : link
Is with some of the big salary decisions coming up, the team may be looking to move on from Eli's contract after another year.
RE: He's not THE problem  
BrettNYG10 : 9/13/2017 3:06 pm : link
In comment 13597556 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But I think he's much more of an issue than his fan club will ever admit. I never understood why so many people were so certain that he'd play through his late 30s without any significant decline. His natural aging curve is only exacerbated by the poor OL play, not caused by it.


Fans - and I'd argue teams as well - consistently underestimate the aging curve because they focus on the exceptions - Brady, Brees, etc. - and think their guy will be one of those too.

I still think we need more time to see whether it's applicable to Eli or not. He's had long stretches of pedestrian/mediocre play before (mid-2012 and all of 2013), etc. Fortunately, we still have 15 games left this season to get more data.
Our line stinks like many OL in the league  
xman : 9/13/2017 3:10 pm : link
but our QB is the least mobile of any other league QB. Means our line needs to be better then average and it isn't.
.  
Go Terps : 9/13/2017 3:10 pm : link
Without putting a competent line in front of him it is impossible to say for sure how much of a problem he is. If you're saying he can't be an effective quarterback behind a line this bad, I'd agree that's a problem.

I believe the majority of the problem is the consistently poor offensive line performance. Opposing defenses do not have to respect:

- our running game
- our play action threat
- our deep passing threat

I believe that Eli and McAdoo are operating this offense with one hand tied behind their backs. If our quarterback has two seconds to throw the ball off his back foot into a secondary that is flooded with 7 defenders, something is very wrong.
RE: .  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 3:11 pm : link
In comment 13597578 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Without putting a competent line in front of him it is impossible to say for sure how much of a problem he is. If you're saying he can't be an effective quarterback behind a line this bad, I'd agree that's a problem.

I believe the majority of the problem is the consistently poor offensive line performance. Opposing defenses do not have to respect:

- our running game
- our play action threat
- our deep passing threat

I believe that Eli and McAdoo are operating this offense with one hand tied behind their backs. If our quarterback has two seconds to throw the ball off his back foot into a secondary that is flooded with 7 defenders, something is very wrong.


Perfect response.
This west coast offense or whatever the hell it is  
Bluesbreaker : 9/13/2017 3:11 pm : link
Does not suit Eli's game . Never been good with short touch passes or screens . Always like any QB plays better when the middle of the pocket is not pushed back .
He is a great drop back passer that knows the game and needs a decent running game to use play action .
It's one thing when you have one weak link on the offensive line and you have a gauge to know when to get rid of the ball
not 3 weak links and sometimes four . He is an excellent deep ball passer . He still has enough on his fast ball to throw
the deep out's . I do see some of the zip lost but not like
with Peyton near the end when everything was floated .
Rarely times when he can actually go through all his reads
Without sensing the pressure and minimizing turnovers .
Eli now needs to have a solid if not great ol in front of him  
micky : 9/13/2017 3:15 pm : link
now in this stage of his career. He's on his downside of career as hints of it was evident last season in his loss of arm and movement. He needs to be a game manager now and cannot compensate with a porous ol. He's not mobile enough.

as we see now he's shell shocked from having to constantly look for and get away from defenders on basically all his drop backs. I believe that hit he took in first washington game last season was the start of this. He's in desperate need of support of a running game to which they do not have.

With the way this ol is built now, and not very good, the offense to have any kind of success is to have a mobile qb..which Eli is not and never was.
RE: Completely disagree...  
JOrthman : 9/13/2017 3:15 pm : link
In comment 13597522 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
Eli has lost nothing on his fastball. He still has zip on his throws... his one deep pass he actually OVERTHREW a receiver. He was eluding a ton of pressure in the pocket. If anything he's more intelligent now (football wise) than he's ever been. People think we had a shit line in 2011 but that line actually came together down the stretch.

Eli has never had a line this bad. I think if you're one of those people that automatically assumed the two worst offensive tackles in football were going to improve this year, or you're one of those people that thinks a blocking TE and a blocking receiver( Marshall) were going to fix the line... you're now going to shift blame to Eli because you are "shocked".

Nope. It's still the line folks. The number two issue is the system. We are basically running a vanilla' down version of the west coast. It's 2017. Teams know how to plan for that by now.


This. People keep bringing up the 2012 line and forget that line was pretty good at pass protection, they failed at run blocking and even with that, they were better at it then this line. Go back and look at some of the games from that year.
I agree great Posts  
Bluesbreaker : 9/13/2017 3:15 pm : link
RE: .
Britt in VA : 3:11 pm : link : reply
In comment 13597578 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Without putting a competent line in front of him it is impossible to say for sure how much of a problem he is. If you're saying he can't be an effective quarterback behind a line this bad, I'd agree that's a problem.

I believe the majority of the problem is the consistently poor offensive line performance. Opposing defenses do not have to respect:

- our running game
- our play action threat
- our deep passing threat

I believe that Eli and McAdoo are operating this offense with one hand tied behind their backs. If our quarterback has two seconds to throw the ball off his back foot into a secondary that is flooded with 7 defenders, something is very wrong.

It was so obvious last year to roll this same line out may be a disaster for a season in which we should make a deep run . It pisses me off to no end .
RE: I meant to include in my Eli defense  
JOrthman : 9/13/2017 3:16 pm : link
In comment 13597527 Section331 said:
Quote:
that he still ended up with 4,000 yards and 26 TD's, despite the personnel shortcomings he had to deal with.


and three of his starters from last year are not even on rosters right now.
RE: trueblue  
trueblueinpw : 9/13/2017 3:16 pm : link
In comment 13597562 beatrixkiddo said:
Quote:
I get the sense that the front office has already started implementing the coach and personnel they want here to succeed in the future (Looking beyond Eli). Looking around the league, so many teams never planned or took the steps to plan for life after their franchise QB's left and have had a hard time finding an identity since, I feel the Giants may have done Eli a disservice by not fully investing / committing to building the team around his strengths over the past couple years, and instead have spent resources on putting in place a system that will be easier to transition to for life beyond eli.


You might be right. The best coaches scheme for what they have and not for what they wish they had. It's easy to say, all we need is a QB like Aaron Rodgers. Yeah, sure, he's one of the best to ever play. I think a good coach would still be able to get some wins out of Eli. Anyway....
He is a part of it  
UberAlias : 9/13/2017 3:17 pm : link
He is not performing like the player who made the Tyree play or the one who showed unflappable poise in the face of oppressive pass rush in the championship game with the '49ers.

Whenever the HC is questioned about the play of the Oline, he immediately responds by noting it is not all on the line. Some of that is undoubtedly directed at the QB.

When an offense is performing as bad as this one is, there is more than enough blame to go around. We are dealing with a perfect storm of issues -uncreative/predictable play calling, a grossly under talented Oline, an immobile QB playing without confidence and without the benefit of a running game.

The hard truth is, when you pay your QB $20M a year, there is going to be tradeoffs. You would gladly take those tradeoffs if he is performing like Eli did in the SB runs because he would elevate the play of those around him. He is no longer doing that, at least not at the moment. At this time, he is not compensating for other deficiencies, he is compounding them. That is the harsh truth.
It's not even just his lack of mobility.  
Keith : 9/13/2017 3:20 pm : link
He's never been a mobile guy, but he's always had pocket presence. He seems to have lost that. Instead of going through his progressions as he's moving in the pocket, he's staring at the rush so he can't see what is going on down the field. He's gotten jittery again. I understand it, but it's still a problem. A QB that can move better would do much better with this line.
What tradeoffs?  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 3:21 pm : link
Quote:
The hard truth is, when you pay your QB $20M a year, there is going to be tradeoffs.


Are you saying we have lesser personel because Eli gets paid 20 million? I beg to differ.

We have two 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder invested in the line in the past four years.

We have Beckham Jr.

We have a 200 million dollar defense.

What tradeoffs did we have to make?
RE: It's not even just his lack of mobility.  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 3:22 pm : link
In comment 13597598 Keith said:
Quote:
He's never been a mobile guy, but he's always had pocket presence. He seems to have lost that. Instead of going through his progressions as he's moving in the pocket, he's staring at the rush so he can't see what is going on down the field. He's gotten jittery again. I understand it, but it's still a problem. A QB that can move better would do much better with this line.


Pocket presence requires an actual pocket to maneuver in. The middle of our line is getting their sh-t stuffed in on most pass plays, and driven right back into Eli.
Uber  
Go Terps : 9/13/2017 3:22 pm : link
Quote:
The hard truth is, when you pay your QB $20M a year, there is going to be tradeoffs.


I would (and have) point more to the enormous money spent on the defense in 2016. The front office made the choice to go in that direction, IMO to the detriment of the offense and specifically the offensive line. THAT was the opportunity we had to make a sweeping change in that area.

To be completely fair, the defense has been very good since that decision was made. But is it good enough to overcome how bad the OL has become?
RE: Completely disagree...  
WillVAB : 9/13/2017 3:23 pm : link
In comment 13597522 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
Eli has lost nothing on his fastball. He still has zip on his throws... his one deep pass he actually OVERTHREW a receiver. He was eluding a ton of pressure in the pocket. If anything he's more intelligent now (football wise) than he's ever been. People think we had a shit line in 2011 but that line actually came together down the stretch.

Eli has never had a line this bad. I think if you're one of those people that automatically assumed the two worst offensive tackles in football were going to improve this year, or you're one of those people that thinks a blocking TE and a blocking receiver( Marshall) were going to fix the line... you're now going to shift blame to Eli because you are "shocked".

Nope. It's still the line folks. The number two issue is the system. We are basically running a vanilla' down version of the west coast. It's 2017. Teams know how to plan for that by now.


Yep.

And the folks calling this OL mediocre need to watch some other teams. This line is easily one of the worst if not the worst in the NFL.
McAdoo brought the WCO  
joe48 : 9/13/2017 3:24 pm : link
At the time McAdoo became OC we had an OL problem. I remember that even though most BBI agreed Eli was not a great fit it could solve our pass protection problems because ball needs to come out quicker. Well I guess the experiment did not work as well as Reese thought. While he was busy drafting WR and defense and no OL and RB Eli has struggled in this system. So now it is 2017 and we have a top defense and a broken offense.
RE: Uber  
BrettNYG10 : 9/13/2017 3:29 pm : link
In comment 13597605 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


The hard truth is, when you pay your QB $20M a year, there is going to be tradeoffs.



I would (and have) point more to the enormous money spent on the defense in 2016. The front office made the choice to go in that direction, IMO to the detriment of the offense and specifically the offensive line. THAT was the opportunity we had to make a sweeping change in that area.

To be completely fair, the defense has been very good since that decision was made. But is it good enough to overcome how bad the OL has become?


The Giants were probably counting on Flowers-Richburg-Pugh all becoming at least above-average linemen and gambling on the right side of the line. At the time, it looked like Pugh and Richburg would certainly be quality players.
It is a fixed salary cap league  
UberAlias : 9/13/2017 3:29 pm : link
That impacts every decision that is made when it comes to FA. The priority was justly the defense. But were there any FAs signed in the past two years who could have helped on the Oline? Most likely.
RE: Uber  
WillVAB : 9/13/2017 3:30 pm : link
In comment 13597605 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


The hard truth is, when you pay your QB $20M a year, there is going to be tradeoffs.



I would (and have) point more to the enormous money spent on the defense in 2016. The front office made the choice to go in that direction, IMO to the detriment of the offense and specifically the offensive line. THAT was the opportunity we had to make a sweeping change in that area.

To be completely fair, the defense has been very good since that decision was made. But is it good enough to overcome how bad the OL has become?


Reese could've solidified the OL via the draft the last two years instead of burning picks on luxury players. Instead we were sold a bill of goods on how we've already invested too much in the OL via the draft and/or the prospects weren't that good.

I think we'd feel better about the OL right now w Tunsil or Conklin plus Robinson -- and I'd gladly take that over Apple/Engram at this point.
RE: RE: Name one QB  
crick n NC : 9/13/2017 3:30 pm : link
In comment 13597536 jlukes said:
Quote:
In comment 13597531 djstat said:


Quote:


Who has performed at a winning level with such a mediocre line? He is jittery because he had no time to throw



Rothlisberger
Rodgers
Brady
Peyton


I don't Agree with list. The first problem is comparing Eli with this current line to roethlisberger, or Rodgers isn't comparable, those guys have mobility Eli never had. Brady and Peyton is the apt comparison, even then though it's not as simple to just look at numbers, what were their running games like? What was their offensive philosophy, how much and for how long had they been beaten up?

Eli is dealing with being knocked around too much for too long, and I believe it's taken a toll mentally. But he is also dealing with an offense that has no threat outside of Beckham, add this current OL, and the.possibility of questionable play calling and you get the result we got Sunday night.

Multiple things have combined to form this, but to me, it ALL starts up front.
And there is no fucking pocket  
Go Terps : 9/13/2017 3:31 pm : link
Another poster (DonQuixote) posted this GIF in another thread. It's of the 3rd and 2 incompletion over the middle to Marshall. The initial response seemed to be that Eli simply was inaccurate, but I'd encourage every BBIer to watch this play again. I've watched it about 20 times.

Take note of the time on the clock, where Eli receives the snap, and the position of the OL and DL when he lets the ball go.

Basically, he has 2 seconds to throw the ball. He has to move to his left; he has no area into which to step up and deliver a confident throw. All 9 linemen are at least 4 yards into the Giants' side of the LOS. Dallas is only rushing 4, so 7 defenders are sitting in coverage.

It is under these conditions that Eli has to try to deliver an accurate ball into a tight window.

The conditions you see in this play have been, to my eye, repeated over and over again in Giants games since we went to what has more or less comprised this group of linemen.

Watch the clip. It's unacceptable.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: It is a fixed salary cap league  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 3:31 pm : link
In comment 13597618 UberAlias said:
Quote:
That impacts every decision that is made when it comes to FA. The priority was justly the defense. But were there any FAs signed in the past two years who could have helped on the Oline? Most likely.


If you're going to say that Eli's salary prevented us from signing an O-lineman to help out, please name an example. We're currently about 5 million under the cap.
RE: It's not even just his lack of mobility.  
Beer Man : 9/13/2017 3:34 pm : link
In comment 13597598 Keith said:
Quote:
He's never been a mobile guy, but he's always had pocket presence. He seems to have lost that. Instead of going through his progressions as he's moving in the pocket, he's staring at the rush so he can't see what is going on down the field. He's gotten jittery again. I understand it, but it's still a problem. A QB that can move better would do much better with this line.
He still has pocket presence, there is just very little pocket to step into.
Eli is a problem,  
section125 : 9/13/2017 3:36 pm : link
one of them and has been. OLine is a problem, too. But Eli just doesn't do well in this WCO of McAdoo's.
With a Cowboys line he'd probably be fine, anything much less, he'll have problems.

At this point, I'm not sure Eli can get his mind right after several years of malfeasance playing in front of him.
RE: Name one QB  
chuckydee9 : 9/13/2017 3:36 pm : link
In comment 13597531 djstat said:
Quote:
Who has performed at a winning level with such a mediocre line? He is jittery because he had no time to throw


Brady 2015.. His OL sucked.. sucked really bad.. they recognized it and their GM fixed it within a year.. JR is on his 5th year and we are worse this year than when Dhiel and Snee played their last season.. I don't blame Eli.. Its OLs fault but its gotten to the point that even when OL holds up, Eli will screw it up.. 5+ years of taking a beating does that to you..
Britt  
UberAlias : 9/13/2017 3:37 pm : link
We can agree to disagree. Neither you nor I know what the $5M is allocated for by the team. But in a salary cap league any responsible team takes cost into account in decision making. That is a fact.
RE: And there is no fucking pocket  
NorwoodWideRight : 9/13/2017 3:39 pm : link
In comment 13597623 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Another poster (DonQuixote) posted this GIF in another thread. It's of the 3rd and 2 incompletion over the middle to Marshall. The initial response seemed to be that Eli simply was inaccurate, but I'd encourage every BBIer to watch this play again. I've watched it about 20 times.

Take note of the time on the clock, where Eli receives the snap, and the position of the OL and DL when he lets the ball go.

Basically, he has 2 seconds to throw the ball. He has to move to his left; he has no area into which to step up and deliver a confident throw. All 9 linemen are at least 4 yards into the Giants' side of the LOS. Dallas is only rushing 4, so 7 defenders are sitting in coverage.

It is under these conditions that Eli has to try to deliver an accurate ball into a tight window.

The conditions you see in this play have been, to my eye, repeated over and over again in Giants games since we went to what has more or less comprised this group of linemen.

Watch the clip. It's unacceptable. Link - ( New Window )


It's a 3rd and 2 and he threw into coverage. He had two better options to pick up the first down for shorter yardage. This is the type of down Vereen excelled at.
RE: Britt  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 3:40 pm : link
In comment 13597637 UberAlias said:
Quote:
We can agree to disagree. Neither you nor I know what the $5M is allocated for by the team. But in a salary cap league any responsible team takes cost into account in decision making. That is a fact.


The problem isn't in not having the resources to invest. As I said, in the past 4 years, we have put two 1st rounders and a premium high pick second rounder on our line, AND paid FA's (Schwartz). They just didn't pan out. That's a coaching and/or evaluation problem, not a resources problem.
The "aging curve"  
ZGiants98 : 9/13/2017 3:42 pm : link
Wake me when he stops being able to make throws down the field. This isn't Peyton at the end where he couldn't throw anything over 10 yards. So if it's not physical, what would age have to do with anything? His mind? 36 and is mind is slower? Gtfo.

It's the same Eli.
RE: And there is no fucking pocket  
GIANTS128 : 9/13/2017 3:42 pm : link
In comment 13597623 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Another poster (DonQuixote) posted this GIF in another thread. It's of the 3rd and 2 incompletion over the middle to Marshall. The initial response seemed to be that Eli simply was inaccurate, but I'd encourage every BBIer to watch this play again. I've watched it about 20 times.

Take note of the time on the clock, where Eli receives the snap, and the position of the OL and DL when he lets the ball go.

Basically, he has 2 seconds to throw the ball. He has to move to his left; he has no area into which to step up and deliver a confident throw. All 9 linemen are at least 4 yards into the Giants' side of the LOS. Dallas is only rushing 4, so 7 defenders are sitting in coverage.

It is under these conditions that Eli has to try to deliver an accurate ball into a tight window.

The conditions you see in this play have been, to my eye, repeated over and over again in Giants games since we went to what has more or less comprised this group of linemen.

Watch the clip. It's unacceptable. Link - ( New Window )


Sadly...Vereen easily gets the first down there...and more
i thought that  
tony71 : 9/13/2017 3:42 pm : link
Eli might have been more the problem, but when i sat down and thought about it, i realized that when ever im rushing as fast as possible to get something done i make more mistakes.Also seems the older i get that makes it harder. Eli isnt as young as he was, and he getting that ball out faster then he ever has before, so yeah there more mistakes. but what choice does he have when he getting hit on either side as soon as he steps back. Im sorry but in my own opinion a lot of this goes on Jerry Reese and McAdoo's shoulders. That line should have been stacked by now with a wall of players that if they werent pro bowlers they be pretty damn close to it. Seem instead each draft has a wtf pick, one that doesnt pan out, or is the JPP of something or other. The refusal to go after a legit tackle or guard in free agency and instead go with players that would barely make aback up on another team baffles me. You look at Dallas's offensive line over the past few years and wonder how Eli would thrive behind that. Or what if Romo had been behind our line? he would have retired years ago and broken alot more bones ,I think.
Im not saying Eli isnt with out fault, but the guy barely played in preseason has a crappy oline thats giving free passes to the Qb, and its only the first game of the year.
So if im putting blame on anyone, im blaming EVERYONE. you need to protect what you have, and these guys need to gel more. if by game 4 we lose them all and nothing has changed then ill start saying its just Eli.
RE: RE: And there is no fucking pocket  
NorwoodWideRight : 9/13/2017 3:45 pm : link
In comment 13597651 GIANTS128 said:
Quote:
In comment 13597623 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Another poster (DonQuixote) posted this GIF in another thread. It's of the 3rd and 2 incompletion over the middle to Marshall. The initial response seemed to be that Eli simply was inaccurate, but I'd encourage every BBIer to watch this play again. I've watched it about 20 times.

Take note of the time on the clock, where Eli receives the snap, and the position of the OL and DL when he lets the ball go.

Basically, he has 2 seconds to throw the ball. He has to move to his left; he has no area into which to step up and deliver a confident throw. All 9 linemen are at least 4 yards into the Giants' side of the LOS. Dallas is only rushing 4, so 7 defenders are sitting in coverage.

It is under these conditions that Eli has to try to deliver an accurate ball into a tight window.

The conditions you see in this play have been, to my eye, repeated over and over again in Giants games since we went to what has more or less comprised this group of linemen.

Watch the clip. It's unacceptable. Link - ( New Window )



Sadly...Vereen easily gets the first down there...and more


To be fair, Eli needed to make a quick decision and throw but he threw into coverage without peeking at his safety valve, Vereen.
RE: RE: Name one QB  
JCin332 : 9/13/2017 3:46 pm : link
In comment 13597536 jlukes said:
Quote:
In comment 13597531 djstat said:


Quote:


Who has performed at a winning level with such a mediocre line? He is jittery because he had no time to throw



Rothlisberger
Rodgers
Brady
Peyton


You are delusional if you think any of these guys at any point in their careers have ever had an OL as bad as this...

Not even close with the ineptitude in both run and pass blocking...
How is he even supposed to see Vereen,  
Go Terps : 9/13/2017 3:48 pm : link
or anyone to his right, when the entire offensive line is caving in and forcing him to his left? And if he did see him what's he supposed to do...throw it through the 6 linemen where Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg have allowed the pocket to completely collapse?

RE: How is he even supposed to see Vereen,  
GIANTS128 : 9/13/2017 3:50 pm : link
In comment 13597662 Go Terps said:
Quote:
or anyone to his right, when the entire offensive line is caving in and forcing him to his left? And if he did see him what's he supposed to do...throw it through the 6 linemen where Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg have allowed the pocket to completely collapse?


Vereen went thru a hole on the play action...he easily would have had the first down...
You know, quarterbacks practice and are conditioned to go through  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 3:52 pm : link
things called "progressions". Two seconds did not allow him to get past his first look.
Just because there isn't a pocket in 1 play  
Keith : 9/13/2017 3:55 pm : link
doesn't mean there is never a pocket. I understand that this line is bad, I get that and I'm not dismissing that. However, there are plays where they do their part and Eli is staring at the rush. He's rattled, he's jittery, he doesn't look downfield anymore because he's expecting a rush on every play.
Are we really looking at that play  
Keith : 9/13/2017 3:57 pm : link
as a play that's defending Eli??? How could he know Vereen is open? How about reading the defense and seeing the LB's drop back into the zone. Even still, he had Marshall and he made a poor throw. Start executing on some of those plays and things will open up. I'm sorry, but that play is on Eli.
This is one of the worst  
PaulBlakeTSU : 9/13/2017 3:57 pm : link
offensive lines I've ever seen. It can't run block, it can't pass protect. And it's often only going against 4 or 5 rushers. And the worst part of it all is that there aren't any stalwarts on the team that Eli can just "set it and forget it" knowing the protection will be there.

The right side is absolutely embarrassment. His blindside tackle has awful technique and gets destroyed off the edge by speed rushers. The two guys who are supposed to be solid-- Pugh and Richburg-- get dominated big big powerful bull-rushers.

Of course Eli is jittery back there-- he is going to get killed on every drop back that takes more than 2-2.5 seconds, but he has no idea which of his shitty linemen will be the slickest turnstile.

How many times in that opening game between Brady and Smith did you stop and think "man, these guys are sitting back there for an eternity."

When we played the Packers, how many times did Aaron Rodgers have more than SIX seconds to throw? I remember it happening on multiple drives.
This  
gmen9892 : 9/13/2017 3:58 pm : link
From a guy that is pretty good at breaking down film and is pretty fair in his assessments.

Quote:
@DanSchneierNFL 5m5 minutes ago
More
I rewatched the #giants vs. #Cowboys and what amazed me most was the difference b/w Dak and Eli's pocket. A good OL is all (after QB obv)


It's clear as day people. Eli is having trouble and is not playing well. If you do not think that its a direct correlation to a bad OL, I dont know what to tell you.
'I'm sorry'...  
Torrag : 9/13/2017 3:59 pm : link
...you should have stopped there as an apology for creating your account and wasting all of our time reading this drivvle.
The problem is the play caller  
Rflairr : 9/13/2017 3:59 pm : link
How are you helping the OL or the QB. When you’re such a predictable play caller. I would love to call plays against a team, I knew would never run 2 times in a row. Even after they have a good gain
Eli left a lot of  
geemanfan : 9/13/2017 4:00 pm : link
Plays on the field. I think he would be the first to admit he had a bad game.
RE: RE: .  
BillKo : 9/13/2017 4:00 pm : link
In comment 13597580 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13597578 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Without putting a competent line in front of him it is impossible to say for sure how much of a problem he is. If you're saying he can't be an effective quarterback behind a line this bad, I'd agree that's a problem.

I believe the majority of the problem is the consistently poor offensive line performance. Opposing defenses do not have to respect:

- our running game
- our play action threat
- our deep passing threat

I believe that Eli and McAdoo are operating this offense with one hand tied behind their backs. If our quarterback has two seconds to throw the ball off his back foot into a secondary that is flooded with 7 defenders, something is very wrong.



Perfect response.


Great answer.

Either become a capable running team, or get the OL in order.

Both help a QB immensely.

The Giants after one game appear to have neither.

You cannot compare Eli to Rodgers.  
Keith : 9/13/2017 4:01 pm : link
Rodgers has time because he sees the rush coming and moves to an open spot and immediately looks down field. Rodgers doesn't just stand in one spot and wait for someone to get open, he's consistently moving around to find space and time. Terrible comparison.

Your overall point is right. A good QB will have success with a good OL and a bad OL will make it really hard to have good QB play. That being said, Eli is not free of blame. When he has time, he's not getting it done. He's terrible at moving around and creating time. He's not reading the defenses and he's missing easy passes.

I love Eli, but I can't absolve him of fault.
RE: Are we really looking at that play  
JCin332 : 9/13/2017 4:01 pm : link
In comment 13597682 Keith said:
Quote:
as a play that's defending Eli??? How could he know Vereen is open? How about reading the defense and seeing the LB's drop back into the zone. Even still, he had Marshall and he made a poor throw. Start executing on some of those plays and things will open up. I'm sorry, but that play is on Eli.


He did not have Marshall...Sean Lee jumped the route if he throws to BM it's possibly a pick 6...he basically threw it away..
Hard to run the ball as much as a team should  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/13/2017 4:01 pm : link
when an OL can't open up a hole no matter who the fucking RB is, dating back to Rashad fucking Jennings.

Forget about the OL from a pass-blocking standpoint. They're just as bad, if not worse, at run-blocking. And this is with 'continuity' along the OLine.

This is one of the worst OLines assembled in team history. Take a bow, Jerry..
waste of a post  
Simms : 9/13/2017 4:03 pm : link
Just another reason to bask Eli.

All falls back on the front office, HC, and a really bad OL.
Especially for the WCO.

It also be Dallas kicked our butt because they are real too.

Eli getting beat up as he has for many a season still shocked he is still standing at times. Like Simms will not be appreciated until he is gone.

If the Steelers drafted him instead of Ben he would have had four or five rings.
RE: RE: Name one QB  
BillKo : 9/13/2017 4:04 pm : link
In comment 13597536 jlukes said:
Quote:
In comment 13597531 djstat said:


Quote:


Who has performed at a winning level with such a mediocre line? He is jittery because he had no time to throw



Rothlisberger
Rodgers
Brady
Peyton


When did Peyton win behind a medicore line??
RE: Completely disagree...  
jvm52106 : 9/13/2017 4:15 pm : link
In comment 13597522 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
Eli has lost nothing on his fastball. He still has zip on his throws... his one deep pass he actually OVERTHREW a receiver. He was eluding a ton of pressure in the pocket. If anything he's more intelligent now (football wise) than he's ever been. People think we had a shit line in 2011 but that line actually came together down the stretch.

Eli has never had a line this bad. I think if you're one of those people that automatically assumed the two worst offensive tackles in football were going to improve this year, or you're one of those people that thinks a blocking TE and a blocking receiver( Marshall) were going to fix the line... you're now going to shift blame to Eli because you are "shocked".

Nope. It's still the line folks. The number two issue is the system. We are basically running a vanilla' down version of the west coast. It's 2017. Teams know how to plan for that by now.


Ummm, you assume that arm strength is the only thing to look for in the down turn of QB. Yeah, NO! Eli is not the same QB. He falls down constantly. He throws some very off target passes that let his receiver do nothing but hope to make the catch. There is a whole lot more going on here. Acceptance of BS play and sorry excuses have become the norm lately. This I have to play better sounds great but if you don't play better it means nothing.
RE: How is he even supposed to see Vereen,  
HomerJones45 : 9/13/2017 4:16 pm : link
In comment 13597662 Go Terps said:
Quote:
or anyone to his right, when the entire offensive line is caving in and forcing him to his left? And if he did see him what's he supposed to do...throw it through the 6 linemen where Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg have allowed the pocket to completely collapse?
in 2 seconds no less.
RE: RE: It is a fixed salary cap league  
UberAlias : 9/13/2017 4:19 pm : link
In comment 13597624 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13597618 UberAlias said:


Quote:


That impacts every decision that is made when it comes to FA. The priority was justly the defense. But were there any FAs signed in the past two years who could have helped on the Oline? Most likely.



If you're going to say that Eli's salary prevented us from signing an O-lineman to help out, please name an example. We're currently about 5 million under the cap.
How about doing what the Vikings did? They signed starter at both tackle spots and looking good.
Link - ( New Window )
There is another play  
JOrthman : 9/13/2017 4:21 pm : link
he got beat up for. It was a pass to a WR, who I think was BM, but not sure at this point. The broadcasters and fans killed him for overthrowing the receiver. However, during the replay you saw the linebacker, I think Lee, in front of the pass lane jump up and almost touch the ball. If Eli threw the ball any lower it would of been a pick. Maybe it was a bad decision, but the throw was where it had to be.
Eli next up in the scapegoat parade  
HomerJones45 : 9/13/2017 4:22 pm : link
No one else left to blame and too much invested in the tenures of Jerry and Benny Mc.

The offensive scheme sucks as does the playcalling and neither has a chance with Jerry's Kids on the o-line.
Who Use to Do The All 22 Game Review?  
Bernie : 9/13/2017 4:24 pm : link
Would love to see that analysis and determine if Eli was missing open receivers or if the rush was in his face before they had time to get open.
RE: RE: RE: It is a fixed salary cap league  
HomerJones45 : 9/13/2017 4:25 pm : link
In comment 13597738 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 13597624 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13597618 UberAlias said:


Quote:


That impacts every decision that is made when it comes to FA. The priority was justly the defense. But were there any FAs signed in the past two years who could have helped on the Oline? Most likely.



If you're going to say that Eli's salary prevented us from signing an O-lineman to help out, please name an example. We're currently about 5 million under the cap.

How about doing what the Vikings did? They signed starter at both tackle spots and looking good. Link - ( New Window )
they don't have someone's relations heading up Player Personnel.
Bob Papa  
Go Terps : 9/13/2017 4:26 pm : link
I just listened to the Papa podcast. He said that, watching the coaches' film, the protection was just not there.
Protection wasn't there but  
xman : 9/13/2017 4:28 pm : link
neither is Eli's accuracy or mobility.
This is as much of a  
est1986 : 9/13/2017 4:39 pm : link
As it is for Ereck Flowers and a couple of others... Meanwhile guys like John Jerry and a couple of others should not have been on this years roster, period. The cap we currently have could have gotten us Whitworth for one year or Wagner or Lang or anything and anything is likely and upgrade for what we currently have. 2011 Eli could have made it happen with this shit O-Line he never had MVP numbers and I didn't expect it this year but after one short week one sample it looks just like last year, this offense sucks minus OBJ
RE: Protection wasn't there but  
Beer Man : 9/13/2017 4:43 pm : link
In comment 13597758 xman said:
Quote:
neither is Eli's accuracy or mobility.
Eli has never been mobile. From an accuracy perspective, if you can't set your feet or step into your throws because defenders are in your face, then accuracy will be off for most QBs. Granted, Eli did misfire on a few throws against Dallas.
Like a lot of things in sports (and life for that matter)  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/13/2017 4:44 pm : link
the truth probably lies in the middle. Yes, this is not the Eli of 2011, but I don't think he's completely shot either. He played pretty damn well in the Packers playoff game & didn't get much help from the WRs.
RE: The problem is the play caller  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/13/2017 4:47 pm : link
In comment 13597688 Rflairr said:
Quote:
How are you helping the OL or the QB. When you’re such a predictable play caller. I would love to call plays against a team, I knew would never run 2 times in a row. Even after they have a good gain

With the frequency that Eli checks at the line, how do any of us know what the true play call is?
that might be true  
NYGTBlair : 9/13/2017 4:47 pm : link
but to think that Davis Webb or Geno Smith give you a better option with a Super Bowl quality defense. You are stuck w/ him.
Eli also got Odell hurt in Cleveland  
32_Razor : 9/13/2017 4:48 pm : link
With a high pass where obj had to reach high and subsequently got submarined.
He's part of the problem  
AcesUp : 9/13/2017 4:53 pm : link
Clear as day to see that we have a shit OL but we're not the only team dealing with that. Take Seattle as an example, you could argue that their OL has been worse, yet their offense hasn't been the complete clusterfuck that ours has been. As is clear by this thread, there is a vocal contingent that wants to place blame everywhere but at the QB position. The fact is, Eli is being paid franchise QB money and he isn't performing anywhere close to that level. He's been almost as bad as this OL and with the amount of money he's being paid, he's not a guy that should have to be propped up just to even get a mediocre product out on the field. He should be elevating the offense despite its weaknesses. I don't believe he's done physically, however I'm afraid he's showing signs of significant mental regression. He's got the yips, he's shellshocked. He needs to be better.
RE: Eli also got Odell hurt in Cleveland  
Bernie : 9/13/2017 4:56 pm : link
In comment 13597813 32_Razor said:
Quote:
With a high pass where obj had to reach high and subsequently got submarined.


Are you serious with this post? You know, it is football where they actually hit each other.
RE: Protection wasn't there but  
Go Terps : 9/13/2017 4:57 pm : link
In comment 13597758 xman said:
Quote:
neither is Eli's accuracy or mobility.


Eli's been the quarterback here since 2004. 200 games.

When has he ever been mobile? How many times has it been apparent that his quality of play falls if he is forced to throw the ball off schedule and off rhythm? How many times has it been made clear that his passing quality goes down if his fundamentals aren't sharp?

EVERYONE knows what type of player he is. That's what makes the decay of the offensive line all the more vexing.

As Eli aged our investment in the offensive line should have been, IMO, the #1 priority on the team. It has not been.
Interesting decision looming  
BigBlueWhale : 9/13/2017 5:03 pm : link
I'm not going to say "if things go south" because they never went north. But if things continue the way they have, it will be interesting to see who the Giants blame.

McAdoo or Eli?

Who's fault is it. I don't think both's heads will roll. OBJ's contract is looming, the O-Line needs to be rebuilt. Still need a stud RB. As crazy as it is to say, it doesn't seem far fetched for the Giants to cut Eli, let Geno vs. Webb duke it out at QB and free up all that $$$ to fix the O at large.

This would allow patience with McAdoo which is what they always prefer to do with HC and front office. Trusting evaluations, good human beings, etc.
Sorry, you sidestep  
Doomster : 9/13/2017 5:04 pm : link
to the left and Marshall is open with a lobbed pass......bad throw by Eli.....
RE: Eli also got Odell hurt in Cleveland  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/13/2017 5:06 pm : link
In comment 13597813 32_Razor said:
Quote:
With a high pass where obj had to reach high and subsequently got submarined.

Hmmmm... are the 32's dupes?
RE: He's part of the problem  
gmen9892 : 9/13/2017 5:10 pm : link
In comment 13597827 AcesUp said:
Quote:
Clear as day to see that we have a shit OL but we're not the only team dealing with that. Take Seattle as an example, you could argue that their OL has been worse, yet their offense hasn't been the complete clusterfuck that ours has been. As is clear by this thread, there is a vocal contingent that wants to place blame everywhere but at the QB position. The fact is, Eli is being paid franchise QB money and he isn't performing anywhere close to that level. He's been almost as bad as this OL and with the amount of money he's being paid, he's not a guy that should have to be propped up just to even get a mediocre product out on the field. He should be elevating the offense despite its weaknesses. I don't believe he's done physically, however I'm afraid he's showing signs of significant mental regression. He's got the yips, he's shellshocked. He needs to be better.


Im sorry, but did you actually watch the Seattle game at all? Wilson was atrocious. 14/27 158 yards 0 tds 0 ints 1 Fumble and 33 QBR. Their offense was EVERY BIT as much of a cluterfuck as ours was. Totally inept and they had all of their players minus Rawls.
the biggest  
Les in TO : 9/13/2017 5:11 pm : link
problem is that our most valuable player on offense was injured on sunday. eli, McAdoo's strategy/playcalling, offensive line and running back play are part of the problem too.
RE: Sorry, you sidestep  
gmen9892 : 9/13/2017 5:11 pm : link
In comment 13597841 Doomster said:
Quote:
to the left and Marshall is open with a lobbed pass......bad throw by Eli.....


A lobbed pass into the middle of the football field? That has INT written all over it.
RE: RE: He's part of the problem  
AcesUp : 9/13/2017 5:13 pm : link
In comment 13597848 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
In comment 13597827 AcesUp said:


Quote:


Clear as day to see that we have a shit OL but we're not the only team dealing with that. Take Seattle as an example, you could argue that their OL has been worse, yet their offense hasn't been the complete clusterfuck that ours has been. As is clear by this thread, there is a vocal contingent that wants to place blame everywhere but at the QB position. The fact is, Eli is being paid franchise QB money and he isn't performing anywhere close to that level. He's been almost as bad as this OL and with the amount of money he's being paid, he's not a guy that should have to be propped up just to even get a mediocre product out on the field. He should be elevating the offense despite its weaknesses. I don't believe he's done physically, however I'm afraid he's showing signs of significant mental regression. He's got the yips, he's shellshocked. He needs to be better.



Im sorry, but did you actually watch the Seattle game at all? Wilson was atrocious. 14/27 158 yards 0 tds 0 ints 1 Fumble and 33 QBR. Their offense was EVERY BIT as much of a cluterfuck as ours was. Totally inept and they had all of their players minus Rawls.


Everything I'm referencing extends back to last year. Our problems extend beyond one game.
RE: RE: Protection wasn't there but  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 5:13 pm : link
In comment 13597836 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13597758 xman said:


Quote:


neither is Eli's accuracy or mobility.



Eli's been the quarterback here since 2004. 200 games.

When has he ever been mobile? How many times has it been apparent that his quality of play falls if he is forced to throw the ball off schedule and off rhythm? How many times has it been made clear that his passing quality goes down if his fundamentals aren't sharp?

EVERYONE knows what type of player he is. That's what makes the decay of the offensive line all the more vexing.

As Eli aged our investment in the offensive line should have been, IMO, the #1 priority on the team. It has not been.


I think a lot of what the unhappiness with Eli boils down to is that if you're paying a QB $20m+ per year, you shouldn't also need everything else around him to be in tip top shape in order for the results not to go to shit.

Even with the OL being what it is, a lot of posters think a team simply needs to get better QB play for $20m. I am one of them.

I don't think anyone expects Pro Bowl stats with the type of OL play Eli has had in front of him of late. There is also a massive chasm between pro bowl stats and Eli's stats over the recent past.
RE: RE: RE: Protection wasn't there but  
AcesUp : 9/13/2017 5:16 pm : link
In comment 13597856 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13597836 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 13597758 xman said:


Quote:


neither is Eli's accuracy or mobility.



Eli's been the quarterback here since 2004. 200 games.

When has he ever been mobile? How many times has it been apparent that his quality of play falls if he is forced to throw the ball off schedule and off rhythm? How many times has it been made clear that his passing quality goes down if his fundamentals aren't sharp?

EVERYONE knows what type of player he is. That's what makes the decay of the offensive line all the more vexing.

As Eli aged our investment in the offensive line should have been, IMO, the #1 priority on the team. It has not been.



I think a lot of what the unhappiness with Eli boils down to is that if you're paying a QB $20m+ per year, you shouldn't also need everything else around him to be in tip top shape in order for the results not to go to shit.

Even with the OL being what it is, a lot of posters think a team simply needs to get better QB play for $20m. I am one of them.

I don't think anyone expects Pro Bowl stats with the type of OL play Eli has had in front of him of late. There is also a massive chasm between pro bowl stats and Eli's stats over the recent past.


This about sums up my sentiments.
RE: RE: RE: Protection wasn't there but  
gmen9892 : 9/13/2017 5:16 pm : link
In comment 13597856 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13597836 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 13597758 xman said:


Quote:


neither is Eli's accuracy or mobility.



Eli's been the quarterback here since 2004. 200 games.

When has he ever been mobile? How many times has it been apparent that his quality of play falls if he is forced to throw the ball off schedule and off rhythm? How many times has it been made clear that his passing quality goes down if his fundamentals aren't sharp?

EVERYONE knows what type of player he is. That's what makes the decay of the offensive line all the more vexing.

As Eli aged our investment in the offensive line should have been, IMO, the #1 priority on the team. It has not been.



I think a lot of what the unhappiness with Eli boils down to is that if you're paying a QB $20m+ per year, you shouldn't also need everything else around him to be in tip top shape in order for the results not to go to shit.

Even with the OL being what it is, a lot of posters think a team simply needs to get better QB play for $20m. I am one of them.

I don't think anyone expects Pro Bowl stats with the type of OL play Eli has had in front of him of late. There is also a massive chasm between pro bowl stats and Eli's stats over the recent past.


He threw for over 4k yards with 26 tds and 16 ints. Those arent bad stats.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Protection wasn't there but  
gmen9892 : 9/13/2017 5:18 pm : link
In comment 13597860 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
In comment 13597856 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


In comment 13597836 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 13597758 xman said:


Quote:


neither is Eli's accuracy or mobility.



Eli's been the quarterback here since 2004. 200 games.

When has he ever been mobile? How many times has it been apparent that his quality of play falls if he is forced to throw the ball off schedule and off rhythm? How many times has it been made clear that his passing quality goes down if his fundamentals aren't sharp?

EVERYONE knows what type of player he is. That's what makes the decay of the offensive line all the more vexing.

As Eli aged our investment in the offensive line should have been, IMO, the #1 priority on the team. It has not been.



I think a lot of what the unhappiness with Eli boils down to is that if you're paying a QB $20m+ per year, you shouldn't also need everything else around him to be in tip top shape in order for the results not to go to shit.

Even with the OL being what it is, a lot of posters think a team simply needs to get better QB play for $20m. I am one of them.

I don't think anyone expects Pro Bowl stats with the type of OL play Eli has had in front of him of late. There is also a massive chasm between pro bowl stats and Eli's stats over the recent past.



He threw for over 4k yards with 26 tds and 16 ints. Those arent bad stats.


And the 2 years before that he threw 65 tds to 28 ints. Where are these bad stats you are looking at?
gmen9892  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 5:21 pm : link
They aren't very good, either.

In any case, the specific stats were not the main point of what I posted.
RE: gmen9892  
gmen9892 : 9/13/2017 5:24 pm : link
In comment 13597868 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
They aren't very good, either.

In any case, the specific stats were not the main point of what I posted.


Come next year 20+ mill for a QB will be middle of the pack. Just look at what a guy like Stafford got and what Cousins will get next year. Neither guy even has a playoff win. You need to get over the money he is being paid, because that is run of the mill for a decent QB.
gmen9892  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 5:27 pm : link
Nobody is complaining about 2014 Eli right now. We're talking about the last 15-20 games in which the offense's results have been miserable, and Eli's play has been somewhere between poor and fair.

You're getting too hung up on the comment I made in the last part about the stats.
Eli is currently 8th highest  
gmen9892 : 9/13/2017 5:27 pm : link
On the list of QB salaries and will be even further down next year.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: gmen9892  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 5:28 pm : link
In comment 13597872 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
In comment 13597868 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


They aren't very good, either.

In any case, the specific stats were not the main point of what I posted.



Come next year 20+ mill for a QB will be middle of the pack. Just look at what a guy like Stafford got and what Cousins will get next year. Neither guy even has a playoff win. You need to get over the money he is being paid, because that is run of the mill for a decent QB.


Both of the QBs you mention have been head and shoulders better for the last 15-20 games.
RE: gmen9892  
gmen9892 : 9/13/2017 5:29 pm : link
In comment 13597874 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
Nobody is complaining about 2014 Eli right now. We're talking about the last 15-20 games in which the offense's results have been miserable, and Eli's play has been somewhere between poor and fair.

You're getting too hung up on the comment I made in the last part about the stats.


Im not disagreeing about his play, I am mearly stating that there is a reason for it. All the Eli "apologists" are pointing out the reason for it. There is tangible evidence everywhere that this line has been a bottom 5 line for the past 7 years. What other QB has had to deal with that for not only the past 15-20 games, but the past 50?
RE: RE: RE: gmen9892  
gmen9892 : 9/13/2017 5:30 pm : link
In comment 13597877 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13597872 gmen9892 said:


Quote:


In comment 13597868 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


They aren't very good, either.

In any case, the specific stats were not the main point of what I posted.



Come next year 20+ mill for a QB will be middle of the pack. Just look at what a guy like Stafford got and what Cousins will get next year. Neither guy even has a playoff win. You need to get over the money he is being paid, because that is run of the mill for a decent QB.



Both of the QBs you mention have been head and shoulders better for the last 15-20 games.


Cousins also has one of the best LT's in the game and has a MUCH better OL.
I know I am paranoid, however the Giants set TC up to fail by not  
plato : 9/13/2017 5:37 pm : link
improving his roster, did they do so because of FO incompetence or so they could get rid of him (because of age, temprament, whatever) without an uproar.

How do you get rid of a HOF QB who is expensive and older? Maybe by not letting him succeed by giving him no protection or even God forbid get banged around so much he just retires or worse.

I put nothing beyond anybody these days. I have seen too much as things have radically changed in my lifetime. I may be crazy paranoid, but there are too few Wellington Maras around anywhere anymore.

I expect a nasty response, OK maybe I deserve it, but its an explanation of facts that most of us would agree on (IBE), why neglect the O line for a decade?
RE: RE: RE: Name one QB  
DisgruntledGiantsfan : 9/13/2017 5:37 pm : link
In comment 13597622 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 13597536 jlukes said:


Quote:


In comment 13597531 djstat said:


Quote:


Who has performed at a winning level with such a mediocre line? He is jittery because he had no time to throw



Rothlisberger
Rodgers
Brady
Peyton



I don't Agree with list. The first problem is comparing Eli with this current line to roethlisberger, or Rodgers isn't comparable, those guys have mobility Eli never had. Brady and Peyton is the apt comparison, even then though it's not as simple to just look at numbers, what were their running games like? What was their offensive philosophy, how much and for how long had they been beaten up?

Eli is dealing with being knocked around too much for too long, and I believe it's taken a toll mentally. But he is also dealing with an offense that has no threat outside of Beckham, add this current OL, and the.possibility of questionable play calling and you get the result we got Sunday night.

Multiple things have combined to form this, but to me, it ALL starts up front.



You hit the nail in the head. Just to add, watch how Sean Lee drops under esth Marshall's route. Eli has nowhere to go with that ball.
Short term fix vs long term considerations  
JohnF : 9/13/2017 5:41 pm : link
Other than a trade, the team will need to do something fast, before Eli gets hurt...and he will get hurt if we continue to stay with the current line.

As I've said before, cut Jerry. He can't run block or pass block. Short term, I'd put Wheeler at LT, Jones at RG and Flowers at RT. And yes, EF will have issues at RT...if it's too tough for him, he can be LG and move Pugh to RT. This line will still suck at run blocking, but it won't be worst than the current starting line. At least Eli will have a shot at completing passes.

Long term, if the team collapses the first half, then the Front Office should explore what they can get for Eli. I'm not in favor of trading him, but even if you devote the next two drafts to just Offensive Linemen, it's likely too late in Eli's career to make a difference. It will take a few years for them to develop.

Trading Eli should get some badly needed high draft picks, even at his age, for a team that has a closing window (Arizona, for example...you know Palmer is due for his annual injury. Denver might think they are close enough to make it worth getting Eli, or even Jacksonville might think Eli puts them over the hump).

If you're against trading Eli, are you really confident in this Front Office getting him the help he needs? And no, I don't think this happens because I think the owners wouldn't allow it, even if it might be in the team's long term interest.
RE: RE: gmen9892  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 5:44 pm : link
In comment 13597878 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
In comment 13597874 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


Nobody is complaining about 2014 Eli right now. We're talking about the last 15-20 games in which the offense's results have been miserable, and Eli's play has been somewhere between poor and fair.

You're getting too hung up on the comment I made in the last part about the stats.



Im not disagreeing about his play, I am mearly stating that there is a reason for it. All the Eli "apologists" are pointing out the reason for it. There is tangible evidence everywhere that this line has been a bottom 5 line for the past 7 years. What other QB has had to deal with that for not only the past 15-20 games, but the past 50?


Sure, that isn't lost on me. I think we just disagree. You think that the play of the OL excuses what we've seen from Eli. I think it's a factor but that he still should be better than he's been.

I like Eli. I'm certainly not throwing all of it on him. I just don't think he's very good right now. Better OL play would help a ton, but he also needs to be a lot better.
RE: Eli is currently 8th highest  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/13/2017 5:47 pm : link
In comment 13597875 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
On the list of QB salaries and will be even further down next year. Link - ( New Window )

Eli will finish this contract as the highest paid player in NFL history. It goes both ways.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Name one QB  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 5:48 pm : link
In comment 13597888 DisgruntledGiantsfan said:
Quote:
Just to add, watch how Sean Lee drops under esth Marshall's route. Eli has nowhere to go with that ball.


and what enabled Lee to do that?

Eli's eyes. He telegraphed it all the way. He was not the victim on that play.
Just saw this thread  
map7711 : 9/13/2017 5:50 pm : link
It amazed me how people can look at the same freaking thing and come up with a this conclusion. It if think this is on Eli you have no F Ing clue what you are watching. Clueless is an understatement. Your football IQ is on the preschool level. You will all rue the day when he retires. Trust me.
RE: Just saw this thread  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 5:51 pm : link
In comment 13597899 map7711 said:
Quote:
It amazed me how people can look at the same freaking thing and come up with a this conclusion. It if think this is on Eli you have no F Ing clue what you are watching. Clueless is an understatement. Your football IQ is on the preschool level. You will all rue the day when he retires. Trust me.


I guess that settles it. This guy DEFINITELY knows what he's watching.
Too much credit  
mattlawson : 9/13/2017 5:52 pm : link
Too much blame. Such is life
RE: I know I am paranoid, however the Giants set TC up to fail by not  
HomerJones45 : 9/13/2017 5:56 pm : link
In comment 13597887 plato said:
Quote:
improving his roster, did they do so because of FO incompetence or so they could get rid of him (because of age, temprament, whatever) without an uproar.

How do you get rid of a HOF QB who is expensive and older? Maybe by not letting him succeed by giving him no protection or even God forbid get banged around so much he just retires or worse.

I put nothing beyond anybody these days. I have seen too much as things have radically changed in my lifetime. I may be crazy paranoid, but there are too few Wellington Maras around anywhere anymore.

I expect a nasty response, OK maybe I deserve it, but its an explanation of facts that most of us would agree on (IBE), why neglect the O line for a decade?
The Wrath of Jerry- he's managed to kill just about everyone else's career but like a poor marksman, he keep missing the target.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Name one QB  
crick n NC : 9/13/2017 5:58 pm : link
In comment 13597898 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13597888 DisgruntledGiantsfan said:


Quote:


Just to add, watch how Sean Lee drops under esth Marshall's route. Eli has nowhere to go with that ball.



and what enabled Lee to do that?

Eli's eyes. He telegraphed it all the way. He was not the victim on that play.


Do you really think Qb's throw passes without looking?
Dallas, not worried about the outside flooded the middle of the field with defenders, do you really think manning should throw blind over the middle?

Also you aren't giving Sean Lee any credit, Lee is.an exceptional lb, both run and coverage
Just to add  
gmen9892 : 9/13/2017 6:00 pm : link
There were a shitload of other established, Pro Bowl QB's that also had bad first weeks.

Quote:
Andy Dalton (four interceptions), Carson Palmer (5.6 yards per attempt, three picks), and Eli Manning (5.8 YPA, one interception). Add in substandard outings by Tom Brady (44 percent completion rate, zero touchdowns, 70 passer rating), Philip Rivers (192 yards at 5.8 YPA), Cam Newton (56 percent, 171 yards), Russell Wilson (52 percent, 158 yards, zero touchdowns, one lost fumble, 70 passer rating), and Kirk Cousins (58 percent, 72.9 passer rating)
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Name one QB  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 6:06 pm : link
In comment 13597911 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 13597898 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


In comment 13597888 DisgruntledGiantsfan said:


Quote:


Just to add, watch how Sean Lee drops under esth Marshall's route. Eli has nowhere to go with that ball.



and what enabled Lee to do that?

Eli's eyes. He telegraphed it all the way. He was not the victim on that play.



Do you really think Qb's throw passes without looking?
Dallas, not worried about the outside flooded the middle of the field with defenders, do you really think manning should throw blind over the middle?

Also you aren't giving Sean Lee any credit, Lee is.an exceptional lb, both run and coverage


Lee is an excellent player.

Eli also stared down Marshall on that play. NBC showed a great replay of Lee looking directly at Manning looking directly at Marshall for about two full seconds.

One play, I'm not going to kill Eli for it. I just thought it was an awful example of Eli being a victim of outside factors.
RE: Sorry, you sidestep  
JOrthman : 9/13/2017 6:07 pm : link
In comment 13597841 Doomster said:
Quote:
to the left and Marshall is open with a lobbed pass......bad throw by Eli.....


Is that even possible based on where he was, the rushers and others in coverage or are you saying that based on nothing?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Name one QB  
JOrthman : 9/13/2017 6:11 pm : link
In comment 13597898 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13597888 DisgruntledGiantsfan said:


Quote:


Just to add, watch how Sean Lee drops under esth Marshall's route. Eli has nowhere to go with that ball.



and what enabled Lee to do that?

Eli's eyes. He telegraphed it all the way. He was not the victim on that play.


Did you talk to Sean Lee? What are you basing that on?
At This Point  
Jeffrey : 9/13/2017 6:19 pm : link
does it really matter whether Eli is playing poorly because of the line or because of declining skills or some combination thereof? Fact is that he has played poorly for the past year and help is not on the way. The coach needs to design an approach that minimizes the weak line and the QB's limitations.

Eli's been a great QB. Coughlin was a great coach. Nothing lasts forever and it is unfortunate that Reese gambled on an aging QB without taking the precaution of at least trying to upgrade a horrible line.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Name one QB  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 6:25 pm : link
In comment 13597929 JOrthman said:
Quote:
In comment 13597898 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


In comment 13597888 DisgruntledGiantsfan said:


Quote:


Just to add, watch how Sean Lee drops under esth Marshall's route. Eli has nowhere to go with that ball.



and what enabled Lee to do that?

Eli's eyes. He telegraphed it all the way. He was not the victim on that play.



Did you talk to Sean Lee? What are you basing that on?


The replay that they showed during the game that showed exactly what I described in my last post.
I don't really understand using that Sean Lee play  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/13/2017 6:26 pm : link
As an indicator. He's a really good coverage linebacker. And Eli has thrown a ton of INTs in his career.

The problem is more than one thing.
RE: I don't really understand using that Sean Lee play  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 6:31 pm : link
In comment 13597950 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
As an indicator. He's a really good coverage linebacker. And Eli has thrown a ton of INTs in his career.

The problem is more than one thing.


You're absolutely right, but that's not what I did. Someone used that play as an example of Eli being in a shitty situation or hung out to dry by his team/offense/whatever, and I pointed out that it was a bad example.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Name one QB  
JOrthman : 9/13/2017 6:33 pm : link
In comment 13597948 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13597929 JOrthman said:


Quote:


In comment 13597898 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


In comment 13597888 DisgruntledGiantsfan said:


Quote:


Just to add, watch how Sean Lee drops under esth Marshall's route. Eli has nowhere to go with that ball.



and what enabled Lee to do that?

Eli's eyes. He telegraphed it all the way. He was not the victim on that play.



Did you talk to Sean Lee? What are you basing that on?



The replay that they showed during the game that showed exactly what I described in my last post.


You saw a video of the play...You don't know what Sean Lee was thinking, what Eli was thinking and I doubt the view was close enough on both sides to show what both of their eyes were doing. Absent an interview of both, you don't know what happened. You'd also have to have a view of his eyes throughout the whole play to know where else he looked.
Whatever you say, dude.  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 6:45 pm : link
I know nothing, and you sound like a complete jackass.
RE: Whatever you say, dude.  
JOrthman : 9/13/2017 6:56 pm : link
In comment 13597972 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
I know nothing, and you sound like a complete jackass.


Who knows, that may have been the case, but you've provided nothing to prove that.
RE: RE: Whatever you say, dude.  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 7:03 pm : link
In comment 13597982 JOrthman said:
Quote:
In comment 13597972 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


I know nothing, and you sound like a complete jackass.



Who knows, that may have been the case, but you've provided nothing to prove that.


Nothing you wanted to hear, at least. I'm sure the guys on the broadcast were also just pissing in the wind when they pointed it out with replay evidence.

Either way, it doesn't totally invalidate the point you were trying to make. It just wasn't a good example of Eli the Battered QB who gets no help.
Bottom line  
Marty866b : 9/13/2017 7:14 pm : link
The offensive line is inept and Eli is definitely regressing as a quarterback. As jluke accurately stated, the Eli that stood tall in the pocket that championship game in S.F. is not the same guy today.
RE: RE: RE: Whatever you say, dude.  
map7711 : 9/13/2017 7:24 pm : link
In comment 13597987 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13597982 JOrthman said:


Quote:


In comment 13597972 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


I know nothing, and you sound like a complete jackass.



Who knows, that may have been the case, but you've provided nothing to prove that.



Nothing you wanted to hear, at least. I'm sure the guys on the broadcast were also just pissing in the wind when they pointed it out with replay evidence.

Either way, it doesn't totally invalidate the point you were trying to make. It just wasn't a good example of Eli the Battered QB who gets no help.


You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.
I disagree. Think he is capable of playing well.  
Giant John : 9/13/2017 7:25 pm : link
But the f------ OLine has the give him time. How did Russel play this week? Giants have to stretch the field on pass plays as a part of their offensive game plan. That said I am going to be watching Eli closer.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Whatever you say, dude.  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 7:38 pm : link
In comment 13598011 map7711 said:
Quote:
You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.


You're doing a tremendous job of contributing to the discussion around here. Keep up the good work.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Whatever you say, dude.  
map7711 : 9/13/2017 7:45 pm : link
In comment 13598027 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13598011 map7711 said:


Quote:


You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.



You're doing a tremendous job of contributing to the discussion around here. Keep up the good work.


Whatever dude. Just look at all the "this offensive line needs to be fixed" stuff that's going around. Talking about who's available or who we can trade to fix this line. It's an awful Oline. Period. Any QB behind this line will hear footsteps and fail. But keep on saying it's on Eli, you sound like an idiot. The only positive is that your not alone. A lot of dumb on BBI lately.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Whatever you say, dude.  
map7711 : 9/13/2017 7:47 pm : link
In comment 13598027 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13598011 map7711 said:


Quote:


You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.



You're doing a tremendous job of contributing to the discussion around here. Keep up the good work.


In case you missed this piece. See the link. But yup it's Eli.
Link - ( New Window )
Vanilla Game Plan  
dcp : 9/13/2017 7:50 pm : link
Eli regression, poor line play and lack of practice off season all contribute to this decline in play. Any future Giants QB must have mobility to compensate for the Oline GM draft picks and inability of the line play to improve. Maybe by mid season they get better but Eli has mental scars that won't fade away.

The NFLPA needs to agree that more practice time is needed or the offensive product suffers.
RE: Vanilla Game Plan  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/13/2017 7:55 pm : link
In comment 13598037 dcp said:
Quote:
Eli regression, poor line play and lack of practice off season all contribute to this decline in play. Any future Giants QB must have mobility to compensate for the Oline GM draft picks and inability of the line play to improve. Maybe by mid season they get better but Eli has mental scars that won't fade away.

The NFLPA needs to agree that more practice time is needed or the offensive product suffers.


A union's job is to look after it's people. It's the league's job to look after the product, and they don't care either. Or else they would never have agreed to it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Whatever you say, dude.  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 8:00 pm : link
In comment 13598032 map7711 said:
Quote:
In comment 13598027 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


In comment 13598011 map7711 said:


Quote:


You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.



You're doing a tremendous job of contributing to the discussion around here. Keep up the good work.



Whatever dude. Just look at all the "this offensive line needs to be fixed" stuff that's going around. Talking about who's available or who we can trade to fix this line. It's an awful Oline. Period. Any QB behind this line will hear footsteps and fail. But keep on saying it's on Eli, you sound like an idiot. The only positive is that your not alone. A lot of dumb on BBI lately.


Nobody is throwing it all on Eli. Clearly the offensive line blows. That doesn't absolve Eli of all and any blame. He also needs to play better. That's all anyone is saying.

The suggestion that Eli isn't above criticism really takes some people to their dark, emotional, reactive place.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Whatever you say, dude.  
map7711 : 9/13/2017 8:13 pm : link
In comment 13598048 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13598032 map7711 said:


Quote:


In comment 13598027 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


In comment 13598011 map7711 said:


Quote:


You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.



You're doing a tremendous job of contributing to the discussion around here. Keep up the good work.



Whatever dude. Just look at all the "this offensive line needs to be fixed" stuff that's going around. Talking about who's available or who we can trade to fix this line. It's an awful Oline. Period. Any QB behind this line will hear footsteps and fail. But keep on saying it's on Eli, you sound like an idiot. The only positive is that your not alone. A lot of dumb on BBI lately.



Nobody is throwing it all on Eli. Clearly the offensive line blows. That doesn't absolve Eli of all and any blame. He also needs to play better. That's all anyone is saying.

The suggestion that Eli isn't above criticism really takes some people to their dark, emotional, reactive place.


What you have to remember the Giants won two SBs against the best QB that ever lived and made him look average. In 07 that was the most prolific scoring team in the history of the NFL with the best QB ever and we made look average. How? We put constant pressure. He heard footsteps and felt that pressure. They scored 14 points. 14!!! Then we did the same thing to him again in '11. The point is even the greatest QB with constant pressure will look bad. Give Eli some time, he will win. Period. He's done it before and will do it again. And I don't believe in the he's regressed theories either. Because the PO game last year he played well. That was the last game last year! He still has it and if we can fix this line somehow, he will prove all the naysayers wrong as he has done his whole career.
RE: RE: RE: Whatever you say, dude.  
JOrthman : 9/13/2017 8:31 pm : link
In comment 13597987 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13597982 JOrthman said:


Quote:


In comment 13597972 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


I know nothing, and you sound like a complete jackass.



Who knows, that may have been the case, but you've provided nothing to prove that.



Nothing you wanted to hear, at least. I'm sure the guys on the broadcast were also just pissing in the wind when they pointed it out with replay evidence.

Either way, it doesn't totally invalidate the point you were trying to make. It just wasn't a good example of Eli the Battered QB who gets no help.


For starters I didn't make any of those points. You know as well as I do that if BBI disagreed with what the broadcasters said you wouldn't be touting them as evidence of anything. If you want to prove that, pull an interview from Lee on the play or get the coaches film. Beyond that your drawing conclusions based a video clip and what the broadcasters told you.
Even I know the line is bas  
joeinpa : 9/13/2017 8:34 pm : link
However I have no idea if Eli is in decline, at least until I see him adequately protected. I don t think most of you do either.

Eli never was known for making plays with his legs.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Whatever you say, dude.  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/13/2017 8:37 pm : link
In comment 13598034 map7711 said:
Quote:
In comment 13598027 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


In comment 13598011 map7711 said:


Quote:


You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.



You're doing a tremendous job of contributing to the discussion around here. Keep up the good work.



In case you missed this piece. See the link. But yup it's Eli. Link - ( New Window )

If Bart Scott is your backup, you probably shouldn't be calling out anyone for their football IQ.
it's only 1 game  
xtian : 9/13/2017 8:44 pm : link
a very bad game, but only 1. too early to panic. if the same thing is happening in october, then we might need to replace him sooner rather that later. but i don't expect he will play so poorly that he sits this year. we will all find out.
Wow  
Jerry from Maine : 9/13/2017 9:24 pm : link
There seems to be a lot of unemployed GM/scouts/coaches here on BBI and they're all Giant fans.. Who would have thunk it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Whatever you say, dude.  
bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 9:27 pm : link
In comment 13598079 JOrthman said:
Quote:
In comment 13597987 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


In comment 13597982 JOrthman said:


Quote:


In comment 13597972 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


I know nothing, and you sound like a complete jackass.



Who knows, that may have been the case, but you've provided nothing to prove that.



Nothing you wanted to hear, at least. I'm sure the guys on the broadcast were also just pissing in the wind when they pointed it out with replay evidence.

Either way, it doesn't totally invalidate the point you were trying to make. It just wasn't a good example of Eli the Battered QB who gets no help.



For starters I didn't make any of those points. You know as well as I do that if BBI disagreed with what the broadcasters said you wouldn't be touting them as evidence of anything. If you want to prove that, pull an interview from Lee on the play or get the coaches film. Beyond that your drawing conclusions based a video clip and what the broadcasters told you.


You can pound sand with your "go find an interview" bullshit. You go watch the replay that was smacked right in the middle of the damn game that you watched. And then show the same clip to 100 people. 99 of them will tell you that the QB locked on to the receiver early and the LB read him. 1 of them will as you to go find an interview of the LB.

For fuck's sake.
This shit has to stop  
GeorgeAdams33 : 9/13/2017 9:52 pm : link
Some of you are just wrong and your theories don't hold water.

Any QB in the league would look like shit behind this joke of an offensive line stupid ass Jerry Reese keeps failing to restock with good talent. All of his moves have been too little too late out of desperation. His draft choices have not panned out and his FA signings have been complete failures.

Any QB would struggle. You are paying Eli 20 million per because he has proven what he can do. You don't pay someone to improvise, you pay them to run your system properly. Eli is one of the most qualified QBs in the league and if you think someone else would have more success you are kidding yourself. In fact, if Reese continues to do nothing with the line Eli should probably hold out for more money.
RE: This shit has to stop  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 10:14 pm : link
In comment 13598134 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
Some of you are just wrong and your theories don't hold water.

Any QB in the league would look like shit behind this joke of an offensive line stupid ass Jerry Reese keeps failing to restock with good talent. All of his moves have been too little too late out of desperation. His draft choices have not panned out and his FA signings have been complete failures.

Any QB would struggle. You are paying Eli 20 million per because he has proven what he can do. You don't pay someone to improvise, you pay them to run your system properly. Eli is one of the most qualified QBs in the league and if you think someone else would have more success you are kidding yourself. In fact, if Reese continues to do nothing with the line Eli should probably hold out for more money.


Amen.
RE: This shit has to stop  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/13/2017 10:19 pm : link
In comment 13598134 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
Some of you are just wrong and your theories don't hold water.

Any QB in the league would look like shit behind this joke of an offensive line stupid ass Jerry Reese keeps failing to restock with good talent. All of his moves have been too little too late out of desperation. His draft choices have not panned out and his FA signings have been complete failures.

Any QB would struggle. You are paying Eli 20 million per because he has proven what he can do. You don't pay someone to improvise, you pay them to run your system properly. Eli is one of the most qualified QBs in the league and if you think someone else would have more success you are kidding yourself. In fact, if Reese continues to do nothing with the line Eli should probably hold out for more money.

Let him hold out for more money. He's already on track to be the HIGHEST PAID PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL. He's not even the best QB of his era by a wide margin, and yet he's going to end his career as the highest paid player the league has ever had. Hold out for more money? Try not locking onto your first read first.
Matthew Stafford is the highest paid player in the NFL....  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2017 10:21 pm : link
(currently).
RE: Wow  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/13/2017 10:23 pm : link
In comment 13598117 Jerry from Maine said:
Quote:
There seems to be a lot of unemployed GM/scouts/coaches here on BBI and they're all Giant fans.. Who would have thunk it.

Oh, sorry Jerry. Should we not be discussing football on a football message board? Is that not what you thunk we were here for?
RE: Matthew Stafford is the highest paid player in the NFL....  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/13/2017 10:23 pm : link
In comment 13598153 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
(currently).

Not career earnings.
History will drive you nuts then  
GeorgeAdams33 : 9/13/2017 10:57 pm : link
Because Eli is going to go down as one of the all time greats. Tom Coughlin's Giants will be remembered fondly and you are not going to like it one bit. If we win another ring with Eli you will be forced to eat crow, but already he has written a great story because history will regard Belichick & Brady's Patriots as the GOAT wining five Super Bowls out of seven. The natural question to be asked will be "Oh yeah, well who did they lose to?"...........
Go listen to  
crick n NC : 9/13/2017 11:26 pm : link
PapaCast. Educational
I agree with most of what you said  
Glover : 9/13/2017 11:45 pm : link
except for the title of the thread. His jittery feet and quick dump offs are the result of crap O line. Yea, he should be able to stand in the face of pressure and deliver, but that is never what he has been. He has been the guy who throws a lot of interceptions, along with a lot of TDs. He'd rather get rid of it than take the hit. He will be better with better protection. He aint what he used to be, but with some better protection he can regain that ice water through his veins commander on the field that he was in the Giants last 2 SB wins.
if you're exonerating Eli of what's going on and none to blame  
micky : 9/14/2017 12:15 am : link
then you're clueless...there was plenty of times in Sunday's game where he did have time only to either miss his receivers by wide margin or just throwing or dumping the ball off short or into the ground for no reason.

the ol is and was horrendous but if you're a $20 mil qb you have TO perform which he hasn't lately on a consistent basis.period.
People really need to get over the  
ZGiants98 : 9/14/2017 12:22 am : link
San Francisco championship game and quit acting like that game was a microcosm of his career. No. Eli has never been the quarterback who stands in the pocket while getting hit and still makes accurate throws. That was an isolated incident. That's what makes it special. The "real Eli" has been making mistakes when pressured his entire life.
Retards  
GeorgeAdams33 : 9/14/2017 12:58 am : link
That is why he has been honored recently for being like third all time with 200 consecutive starts. Do you want a guy who mixes guts with stupidity and gets himself knocked out for long stretches? I'd rather have what we have had and more of it thank you.
Big Blue Chat  
GeorgeAdams33 : 9/14/2017 1:21 am : link
on Big Blue View with Pat Traina & Ed Valentine is good as well, crick n NC
RE: History will drive you nuts then  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 4:05 am : link
In comment 13598169 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
Because Eli is going to go down as one of the all time greats. Tom Coughlin's Giants will be remembered fondly and you are not going to like it one bit. If we win another ring with Eli you will be forced to eat crow, but already he has written a great story because history will regard Belichick & Brady's Patriots as the GOAT wining five Super Bowls out of seven. The natural question to be asked will be "Oh yeah, well who did they lose to?"...........

Cool, you already got a headstart on remembering him fondly. Now if you wouldn't mind taking your circle jerk off to the side, maybe everyone else can get back to discussing the present and future.
You guys should all be ashamed of yourselves  
SHO'NUFF : 9/14/2017 4:39 am : link
Eli deserves better fans.
Something new to chew on...  
cznmike : 9/14/2017 6:41 am : link
According to PFF the O line wasn't rated as bad as they appeared. No run game always makes a bad night for Eli. Look at both Super Bowl runs. When the Giants ran the ball, and decently- not great, they win. Less than 20 attempts in a game has almost always doomed them.

So, if PFF is anywhere near correct in the way they score individual performances, the running backs never got started. Should they have continued to run the ball? Should they have given the ball to Darkwa at least 10 carries?

If PFF rankings are correct, it takes it down to play calling. Jam the run, forcing the Giants to pass. Jam the middle of the field on pass plays, and there's nowhere to throw the ball in less than 3 seconds. Unless I went into a coma, which was likely, the only pass to stretch the field was a useless overthrow to Marshall that wasn't close to anyone playing football.

It was good to see some new formations, but when a team is averaging 5.8 yards a completion, which there wasn't enough of those either, and almost every one of them inside the hashmarks, it'll make a long night for any NFL team.

My only suggestion is to hope for everyone to get their game together, especially the run game. McGoo needs to admit to himself he's not an offensive genius and pass the baton. Give the ball to the hungry guy- 3 carries and he averaged 4.7 yards a carry. 3 x 4.7 = 14.1 yards. We could have had some 1st downs and taken pressure off of Eli.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: You guys should all be ashamed of yourselves  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 6:48 am : link
In comment 13598216 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
Eli deserves better fans.

Eli gets paid $20M per year. He's being treated more than fairly regardless of fan criticism.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Whatever you say, dude.  
map7711 : 9/14/2017 7:16 am : link
In comment 13598088 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13598034 map7711 said:


Quote:


In comment 13598027 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


In comment 13598011 map7711 said:


Quote:


You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.



You're doing a tremendous job of contributing to the discussion around here. Keep up the good work.



In case you missed this piece. See the link. But yup it's Eli. Link - ( New Window )


If Bart Scott is your backup, you probably shouldn't be calling out anyone for their football IQ.


Yea I'll listen to an ex NFL player over some dude on a fan site everyday.
RE: RE: You guys should all be ashamed of yourselves  
crick n NC : 9/14/2017 7:38 am : link
In comment 13598223 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13598216 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


Eli deserves better fans.


Eli gets paid $20M per year. He's being treated more than fairly regardless of fan criticism.


Money is irrelevant, fans don't pay his salary. In my view Manning deserves more grace than what he's getting.
Usually the rats wait for more than one loss before scampering  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/14/2017 9:07 am : link
off the boat.

Frontrunning trash.
RE: RE: RE: You guys should all be ashamed of yourselves  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 9:22 am : link
In comment 13598232 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 13598223 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13598216 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


Eli deserves better fans.


Eli gets paid $20M per year. He's being treated more than fairly regardless of fan criticism.



Money is irrelevant, fans don't pay his salary. In my view Manning deserves more grace than what he's getting.

Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think the criticism comes with the territory and is related to the money in two ways: 1) that level of money is only afforded because of the sport's popularity, and 2) Eli hasn't played like a $20MM QB since at least 2015.

Now, you can say that the fans don't pay the salary, and even leaving aside the correlation of fan popularity making that salary possible (and by extension, funding it), but the reality is if you feel, as I do, that Eli hasn't been playing well enough to justify his salary over the past year and appears to be in decline, it's a worthwhile question to ask whether he - and his salary - are hamstringing the team from improving in any other areas.

And the point I made earlier (or maybe on one of the other myriad Eli threads) about Eli being on track to finish this contract having earned more money than any other player in NFL history is this: has he, at any point in his career, been the best player in the NFL? Has he ever been the best QB in the NFL? Yet he will have earned more money than any of his contemporaries. How much better could any of our teams been over the years had Eli not squeezed every penny from the Giants? Is it a coincidence that the Patriots have had an extended dynasty while Brady has taken less money?

If Eli needs OL help, then let him give back some money to fund those acquisitions. Otherwise, are we supposed to mortgage the future of the team and retaining the young talent on the roster to make risky moves by trading picks and taking on contracts of aging OL veterans?

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree, but I don't think a ton of sympathy (or grace, as you put it) is necessary for a player that will have made over $200MM over the course of his career in a zero sum salary cap environment where every dollar that he earned by definition did not go to any other roster reinforcements. He has to be able to overcome some shortcomings by virtue of his salary IMO, and if he can't, that's worthy of some criticism.
Gatorade  
crick n NC : 9/14/2017 10:01 am : link
That's fine. We don't see eye to eye, nothing wrong with that. I don't have interest in attempting to change your opinion. I know how I feel, but I also understand the possibility that I am wrong about some things.
RE: Something new to chew on...  
Section331 : 9/14/2017 10:14 am : link
In comment 13598222 cznmike said:
Quote:
According to PFF the O line wasn't rated as bad as they appeared. No run game always makes a bad night for Eli. Look at both Super Bowl runs. When the Giants ran the ball, and decently- not great, they win. Less than 20 attempts in a game has almost always doomed them.


Look at 2011, running game was dead last in the league, and Eli had his best season. Yes, a good running game will help ANY QB, Eli is no exception, but he has been very good with poor OL play before.

If you watch the all 22 tape, the OL is getting beat somewhere on every play. I don't know PFF's criteria, but I have to wonder what they were looking at. The line play was horrid.
Every expert/ex-Giants player/analyst I have heard this week is  
PatersonPlank : 9/14/2017 10:22 am : link
blaming the offensive line. They say the line sucks, no one is getting open, and if someone is open Eli has no time anyway. Plus there aren't any holes to run through.

If everyone blames the OL why do so many on here, who don't know the assignments or internals of the game, rush to blame Eli? I think the Papacast is great where Diehl is ripping the line. I side with those guys who have played. If Eli is getting skiddish as the game goes on, well he likely should with the lousy line. Again, Brady was skiddish last week too after his line failed.

Without pass protection no QB can function.
RE: Every expert/ex-Giants player/analyst I have heard this week is  
gmenatlarge : 9/14/2017 10:37 am : link
In comment 13598382 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
blaming the offensive line. They say the line sucks, no one is getting open, and if someone is open Eli has no time anyway. Plus there aren't any holes to run through.

If everyone blames the OL why do so many on here, who don't know the assignments or internals of the game, rush to blame Eli? I think the Papacast is great where Diehl is ripping the line. I side with those guys who have played. If Eli is getting skiddish as the game goes on, well he likely should with the lousy line. Again, Brady was skiddish last week too after his line failed.

Without pass protection no QB can function.


Exactly, the problem is this O-line isn't just NFL bad or even college bad they are high school bad at this point, they can't even handle a basic stunt!!!
RE: RE: RE: RE: You guys should all be ashamed of yourselves  
gmenatlarge : 9/14/2017 12:48 pm : link
In comment 13598298 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13598232 crick n NC said:


Quote:


In comment 13598223 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13598216 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


Eli deserves better fans.


Eli gets paid $20M per year. He's being treated more than fairly regardless of fan criticism.



Money is irrelevant, fans don't pay his salary. In my view Manning deserves more grace than what he's getting.


Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think the criticism comes with the territory and is related to the money in two ways: 1) that level of money is only afforded because of the sport's popularity, and 2) Eli hasn't played like a $20MM QB since at least 2015.

Now, you can say that the fans don't pay the salary, and even leaving aside the correlation of fan popularity making that salary possible (and by extension, funding it), but the reality is if you feel, as I do, that Eli hasn't been playing well enough to justify his salary over the past year and appears to be in decline, it's a worthwhile question to ask whether he - and his salary - are hamstringing the team from improving in any other areas.

And the point I made earlier (or maybe on one of the other myriad Eli threads) about Eli being on track to finish this contract having earned more money than any other player in NFL history is this: has he, at any point in his career, been the best player in the NFL? Has he ever been the best QB in the NFL? Yet he will have earned more money than any of his contemporaries. How much better could any of our teams been over the years had Eli not squeezed every penny from the Giants? Is it a coincidence that the Patriots have had an extended dynasty while Brady has taken less money?

If Eli needs OL help, then let him give back some money to fund those acquisitions. Otherwise, are we supposed to mortgage the future of the team and retaining the young talent on the roster to make risky moves by trading picks and taking on contracts of aging OL veterans?

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree, but I don't think a ton of sympathy (or grace, as you put it) is necessary for a player that will have made over $200MM over the course of his career in a zero sum salary cap environment where every dollar that he earned by definition did not go to any other roster reinforcements. He has to be able to overcome some shortcomings by virtue of his salary IMO, and if he can't, that's worthy of some criticism.


Interesting point on Eli giving money back, he could easily have offered to restructure ala Brady in order to bring in some OL help. Even though his wife isn't making as much as Brady's (who's does?) he could have looked at it as an investment in his health and welfare. Plus he would still get the money down the road...
Neither Peyton nor Eli have ever entertained taking a pay cut  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/14/2017 12:54 pm : link
Doubt it would happen.
If the problem is Eli  
PaulBlakeTSU : 9/14/2017 2:06 pm : link
then let's play a little game.

Last year, the NFL MVP was Matt Ryan. According to the writers, he was the "best" QB last year, or best performing QB.

If Eli is the problem, then surely Matt Ryan on this Giants team would make the offense hum. Afterall, he's the MVP.

So with this offensive line that cannot open up running lanes or push the defensive line back, and with this offensive line that gives up sacks and cannot maintain a pocket against 4! down linemen, how would Matt Ryan make this offense a success? Whene Matt Ryan is under duress immediately not knowing who the worst OL is going to be on any particular play, and he has to quickly get rid of the ball and throw against 6 and 7 defenders in coverage because the defense does not have to worry about a run or long-developing plays, where is he going with the ball?

What would Matt Ryan do in this situation that would be different from Eli?

RE: If the problem is Eli  
micky : 9/14/2017 2:13 pm : link
In comment 13598648 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
then let's play a little game.

Last year, the NFL MVP was Matt Ryan. According to the writers, he was the "best" QB last year, or best performing QB.

If Eli is the problem, then surely Matt Ryan on this Giants team would make the offense hum. Afterall, he's the MVP.

So with this offensive line that cannot open up running lanes or push the defensive line back, and with this offensive line that gives up sacks and cannot maintain a pocket against 4! down linemen, how would Matt Ryan make this offense a success? Whene Matt Ryan is under duress immediately not knowing who the worst OL is going to be on any particular play, and he has to quickly get rid of the ball and throw against 6 and 7 defenders in coverage because the defense does not have to worry about a run or long-developing plays, where is he going with the ball?

What would Matt Ryan do in this situation that would be different from Eli?


more mobility...
Brady  
Simms : 9/14/2017 2:25 pm : link
Brady is not taking less money.

The pats have built a money machine around him with businesses and low rent per square foot with his shops etc.

It might be on the salary cap / football books as less. But Brady is not taking less money.
RE: Every expert/ex-Giants player/analyst I have heard this week is  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 2:27 pm : link
In comment 13598382 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
blaming the offensive line. They say the line sucks, no one is getting open, and if someone is open Eli has no time anyway. Plus there aren't any holes to run through.

If everyone blames the OL why do so many on here, who don't know the assignments or internals of the game, rush to blame Eli? I think the Papacast is great where Diehl is ripping the line. I side with those guys who have played. If Eli is getting skiddish as the game goes on, well he likely should with the lousy line. Again, Brady was skiddish last week too after his line failed.

Without pass protection no QB can function.

The OL is not without blame, so they definitely deserve to be called out. The OL is the easy scapegoat, and a lot of these analysts don't do any actual work, they just parrot each other. But if you haven't read any analysts positing that Eli bears some responsibility, I'm sorry but you're living in an echo chamber.
RE: Brady  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 2:29 pm : link
In comment 13598687 Simms said:
Quote:
Brady is not taking less money.

The pats have built a money machine around him with businesses and low rent per square foot with his shops etc.

It might be on the salary cap / football books as less. But Brady is not taking less money.

I couldn't agree more. But the point is, Brady is counting less against the cap than any other established franchise QB. At what point has Eli earned enough? He's already right at the $200MM level - when does he start to care about his legacy as much as his fans do?
It's the other way around  
GeorgeAdams33 : 9/14/2017 2:33 pm : link
For some of you Eli is the easy scapegoat. Just because you can view the game from your couch you can apparently ignore the pass rush. I'm sure the view is different from behind center.
micky  
GeorgeAdams33 : 9/14/2017 2:37 pm : link
You are kidding yourself if you think Matt Ryan is mobile. Ryan was a total pussy a few years ago when the Falcon's line was still a weakness. Many thought Ryan was playing scared. They fixed the line and now he is playing much better. What are the odds??
RE: Neither Peyton nor Eli have ever entertained taking a pay cut  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 2:38 pm : link
In comment 13598585 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Doubt it would happen.

Of course it wouldn't. How do you think the two of them ended up #1 and #2 in the NFL's all-time earning's list. But it doesn't make roster construction any easier, and it shouldn't earn any sympathy for a weaker supporting cast.
RE: If the problem is Eli  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 2:42 pm : link
In comment 13598648 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
then let's play a little game.

Last year, the NFL MVP was Matt Ryan. According to the writers, he was the "best" QB last year, or best performing QB.

If Eli is the problem, then surely Matt Ryan on this Giants team would make the offense hum. Afterall, he's the MVP.

So with this offensive line that cannot open up running lanes or push the defensive line back, and with this offensive line that gives up sacks and cannot maintain a pocket against 4! down linemen, how would Matt Ryan make this offense a success? Whene Matt Ryan is under duress immediately not knowing who the worst OL is going to be on any particular play, and he has to quickly get rid of the ball and throw against 6 and 7 defenders in coverage because the defense does not have to worry about a run or long-developing plays, where is he going with the ball?

What would Matt Ryan do in this situation that would be different from Eli?

Would you mind if I posited a different view? Maybe the team isn't constructed to have a "franchise" QB in terms of dollars. With the amount of money already committed to the defense, the amount that will have to be reserved for upcoming contracts for young talent like Beckham and Collins and the need to boost the offensive line, something has to give. We saw this team win 11 games last year with a middling offense. Maybe it's just time to reconsider the importance of the QB to the construction of the roster. I believe that's why the Giants drafted Webb this past year, and I believe that if this season goes down the tubes, they'll double down with another franchise QB prospect.
RE: It's the other way around  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 2:44 pm : link
In comment 13598707 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
For some of you Eli is the easy scapegoat. Just because you can view the game from your couch you can apparently ignore the pass rush. I'm sure the view is different from behind center.

He has gotten sacked less by almost half since the arrival of McAdoo compared to under TC/KG. Try again.
RE: RE: It's the other way around  
UberAlias : 9/14/2017 3:01 pm : link
In comment 13598730 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13598707 GeorgeAdams33 said:


Quote:


For some of you Eli is the easy scapegoat. Just because you can view the game from your couch you can apparently ignore the pass rush. I'm sure the view is different from behind center.


He has gotten sacked less by almost half since the arrival of McAdoo compared to under TC/KG. Try again.
Yes but the big plays are down and the offense is producing 3 and outs at an alarming rate.
RE: RE: RE: It's the other way around  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 3:04 pm : link
In comment 13598759 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 13598730 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13598707 GeorgeAdams33 said:


Quote:


For some of you Eli is the easy scapegoat. Just because you can view the game from your couch you can apparently ignore the pass rush. I'm sure the view is different from behind center.


He has gotten sacked less by almost half since the arrival of McAdoo compared to under TC/KG. Try again.

Yes but the big plays are down and the offense is producing 3 and outs at an alarming rate.

Absolutely correct. The offensive system is the same. The playcaller is the same. What has changed?

Eli's age.
RE: RE: Brady  
Section331 : 9/14/2017 3:09 pm : link
In comment 13598696 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

I couldn't agree more. But the point is, Brady is counting less against the cap than any other established franchise QB. At what point has Eli earned enough? He's already right at the $200MM level - when does he start to care about his legacy as much as his fans do?


Should he play for free? Sure, Brady takes less, maybe Eli should start his own nutrition company and have the Giants spend millions on it like the Pats do with Brady's TB12.
RE: RE: RE: Brady  
jcn56 : 9/14/2017 3:26 pm : link
In comment 13598770 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13598696 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:



I couldn't agree more. But the point is, Brady is counting less against the cap than any other established franchise QB. At what point has Eli earned enough? He's already right at the $200MM level - when does he start to care about his legacy as much as his fans do?



Should he play for free? Sure, Brady takes less, maybe Eli should start his own nutrition company and have the Giants spend millions on it like the Pats do with Brady's TB12.


Side note - unrelated to whether or not he's an issue or should take less - if other teams are doing this, then the Giants should absolutely go the shady route. Why the hell not?
RE: RE: RE: Brady  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 3:36 pm : link
In comment 13598770 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13598696 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:



I couldn't agree more. But the point is, Brady is counting less against the cap than any other established franchise QB. At what point has Eli earned enough? He's already right at the $200MM level - when does he start to care about his legacy as much as his fans do?



Should he play for free? Sure, Brady takes less, maybe Eli should start his own nutrition company and have the Giants spend millions on it like the Pats do with Brady's TB12.

There are a lot of dollars between free and $20MM. Maybe Eli should care as much about his legacy as his fans do and take a little less to afford some OL help. Could Eli play for $14MM like Brady and give the Giants a chance to sign a Whitworth? Of course he could.

But he won't. Mannings don't play for a penny less than full price.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Brady  
Section331 : 9/14/2017 3:49 pm : link
In comment 13598793 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

There are a lot of dollars between free and $20MM. Maybe Eli should care as much about his legacy as his fans do and take a little less to afford some OL help. Could Eli play for $14MM like Brady and give the Giants a chance to sign a Whitworth? Of course he could.

But he won't. Mannings don't play for a penny less than full price.


He can't. The CBA won't allow for players to take less money on an existing contract. They can restructure, which Eli has already done, and he can only do it once within an existing agreement. Your hatred of the Mannings is a little odd coming from a supposed Giant fan.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Brady  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 4:00 pm : link
In comment 13598805 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13598793 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:



There are a lot of dollars between free and $20MM. Maybe Eli should care as much about his legacy as his fans do and take a little less to afford some OL help. Could Eli play for $14MM like Brady and give the Giants a chance to sign a Whitworth? Of course he could.

But he won't. Mannings don't play for a penny less than full price.



He can't. The CBA won't allow for players to take less money on an existing contract. They can restructure, which Eli has already done, and he can only do it once within an existing agreement. Your hatred of the Mannings is a little odd coming from a supposed Giant fan.

He has not restructured during this contract. He has only restructured once in his career - in 2012.

I don't hate the Mannings; I'm just pointing out a well-known truth, which is that they don't take a penny less than full price.

As for the CBA, tell that to JT Thomas and Dwayne Harris.
I always love reading about Tom Brady  
UConn4523 : 9/14/2017 4:05 pm : link
and the Patriots, especially when using it to prove a point on what the Giants or its players should do. It's always enlightening...
RE: RE: It's the other way around  
HomerJones45 : 9/14/2017 4:12 pm : link
In comment 13598730 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13598707 GeorgeAdams33 said:


Quote:


For some of you Eli is the easy scapegoat. Just because you can view the game from your couch you can apparently ignore the pass rush. I'm sure the view is different from behind center.


He has gotten sacked less by almost half since the arrival of McAdoo compared to under TC/KG. Try again.
Where are you getting your sack numbers because that is simply not the case.
Eli can't be successful with this line  
exiled : 9/14/2017 4:17 pm : link
and that's the problem. He doesn't--he SHOULDN'T--trust this set of guys in front of him.

You guys want Eli to be someone he's not. And it seems that the team does as well, because for 5 years they haven't upgraded the OL.
RE: RE: RE: It's the other way around  
Section331 : 9/14/2017 4:18 pm : link
In comment 13598822 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:

Where are you getting your sack numbers because that is simply not the case.


He's looking at one year of the TC/KG era, 2013, when Eli was sacked 39 times, by FAR the most in his career. Since McAdoo has taken over (even as OC), Eli sack numbers have been in line with his career numbers. Don't expect fair accounting from GD.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It's the other way around  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 4:29 pm : link
In comment 13598826 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13598822 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:



Where are you getting your sack numbers because that is simply not the case.



He's looking at one year of the TC/KG era, 2013, when Eli was sacked 39 times, by FAR the most in his career. Since McAdoo has taken over (even as OC), Eli sack numbers have been in line with his career numbers. Don't expect fair accounting from GD.

One year? Try 9 years. Sorry if a spreadsheet is confusing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It's the other way around  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 4:30 pm : link
In comment 13598832 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13598826 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 13598822 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:



Where are you getting your sack numbers because that is simply not the case.



He's looking at one year of the TC/KG era, 2013, when Eli was sacked 39 times, by FAR the most in his career. Since McAdoo has taken over (even as OC), Eli sack numbers have been in line with his career numbers. Don't expect fair accounting from GD.


One year? Try 9 years. Sorry if a spreadsheet is confusing.

Here's the data:

I have a problem with people saying that we  
Jersey55 : 9/14/2017 4:45 pm : link
need to rebuild the offensive line for Eli to feel more comfortable in the pocket, thats BS, Eli needs to play with the line he has and Bmac needs to put in offensive plays that will help out an immobile QB like Eli. I'm thinking Bmac is as big a part of the problem as any other part of the team because he sits there and lets defenses dictate to him what plays he can run, thats BS, he needs to dictate to them .
It look like something is off  
HomerJones45 : 9/14/2017 4:51 pm : link
how does going from an average of 27 to 26 yield a delta of 100%?

According to Football Reference here are the actual sack numbers for Eli's career: 13, 28, 25, 27, 27, 30, 16, 28, 19, 39// McAdoo era: 28, 27, 21. Interestingly, Eli was sacked 25.2 times per season during the Gilbride era and has been sacked 25 times per year during the McAdoo era.

Although these calculations were performed with pen, paper and my trust Radio Shack Dual Powered Solar Calculaor, there does not appear to have been any halving of the sack totals as you asserted.
RE: It look like something is off  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 4:54 pm : link
In comment 13598843 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
how does going from an average of 27 to 26 yield a delta of 100%?

According to Football Reference here are the actual sack numbers for Eli's career: 13, 28, 25, 27, 27, 30, 16, 28, 19, 39// McAdoo era: 28, 27, 21. Interestingly, Eli was sacked 25.2 times per season during the Gilbride era and has been sacked 25 times per year during the McAdoo era.

Although these calculations were performed with pen, paper and my trust Radio Shack Dual Powered Solar Calculaor, there does not appear to have been any halving of the sack totals as you asserted.

First of all, remove 2004 as he only played 9 games and started 7. Secondly, you're right, I didn't normalize the delta against 100%. So when it shows 100%, that's effectively flat. I was picking up the spreadsheet from the "Eli washed up? Not by the numbers!" thread and just re-parsed the data.
RE: RE: It look like something is off  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/14/2017 5:00 pm : link
In comment 13598845 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13598843 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


how does going from an average of 27 to 26 yield a delta of 100%?

According to Football Reference here are the actual sack numbers for Eli's career: 13, 28, 25, 27, 27, 30, 16, 28, 19, 39// McAdoo era: 28, 27, 21. Interestingly, Eli was sacked 25.2 times per season during the Gilbride era and has been sacked 25 times per year during the McAdoo era.

Although these calculations were performed with pen, paper and my trust Radio Shack Dual Powered Solar Calculaor, athere does not appear to have been any halving of the sack totals as you asserted.


First of all, remove 2004 as he only played 9 games and started 7. Secondly, you're right, I didn't normalize the delta against 100%. So when it shows 100%, that's effectively flat. I was picking up the spreadsheet from the "Eli washed up? Not by the numbers!" thread and just re-parsed the data.

And you're right, it hasn't decreased by half. But it has decreased. It decreased when BMc took over for KG, and then decreased even further when BMc took over for TC. So for the narrative that Eli is under such duress that he can't possibly perform, there's evidence here to suggest that earlier in his career, Eli was more willing to wait for plays to come open. And add to that the decreasing Y/A and Y/C and you start to see a trend of checking down (which I think many of us can anecdotally attest to as well).

I continue to say that I am not absolving the OL of any responsibility, but if you're not willing to see that Eli bears some of the responsibility himself, you're just choosing not to see the whole picture.
RE: I have a problem with people saying that we  
gmenatlarge : 9/15/2017 4:50 pm : link
In comment 13598838 Jersey55 said:
Quote:
need to rebuild the offensive line for Eli to feel more comfortable in the pocket, thats BS, Eli needs to play with the line he has and Bmac needs to put in offensive plays that will help out an immobile QB like Eli. I'm thinking Bmac is as big a part of the problem as any other part of the team because he sits there and lets defenses dictate to him what plays he can run, thats BS, he needs to dictate to them .


I hear you about McAdoo but it's hard to dictate anything when only one of your lineman (Pugh) is winning his battle on a consistent basis.
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