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From Pat: 3 Potential OL Combos

Beer Man : 9/15/2017 8:30 am
Pat posted this on he website this morning
Inside Football: Patrica Traina - ( New Window )
John Jerry can play RT  
ZogZerg : 9/15/2017 8:35 am : link
?
I have been rooting for Flowers  
Chris684 : 9/15/2017 8:42 am : link
and I still like alot of what he brings to an OL as far as toughness, but it's obvious he has not developed the technique to play LT. When you also factor in that Pugh is our best lineman, and can and has played LT, any OL move I'm making involves Pugh out to LT. I don't know if there is anywhere else for Flowers to play, RG perhaps? Or if that would mean he has to sit for the remainder of the year and revisit a position switch next offseason, but so be it.

Eli is old, Marshall is on a 2 year deal. The defense is in its prime. There is really no time to waste on an offensive line that can't protect a 3 step drop.

Forget about lack of cohesion, right now the alternative is looking worse.
Pugh-Jerry-Richburg-Flowers-Fluker  
Chris684 : 9/15/2017 8:44 am : link
..
I love this line in the article:  
smshmth8690 : 9/15/2017 8:49 am : link
'Although Brett Jones received snaps at right guard over the summer with the rest of the starting line, teaming him up alongside of Richburg doesn’t really give the Giants ideal size inside.'

True the size isn't ideal, but the results, albeit preseason, looked better than the Richburg/Jerry combo. imo.
RE: Pugh-Jerry-Richburg-Flowers-Fluker  
Dodge : 9/15/2017 8:52 am : link
In comment 13599255 Chris684 said:
Quote:
..


Are you randomly putting names together?
No, actually I'm not..  
Chris684 : 9/15/2017 8:56 am : link
Pugh has played LT. Fluker has played plenty of RT and has that experience. So other than Flowers, there's nothing there that's a huge reach and if I'm not mistaken, Sy and others who would know better than I, have said that Flowers projects more as a RG than LT.

It's definitely desperate, but I'd argue the situation is pretty desperate right now.

You want to be 0-2 headed to Philadelphia?
you can rearrange the chairs all you want  
micky : 9/15/2017 8:58 am : link
but the titanic (This ol) is still going to sink.
A real shame that they didn't try different combos in preseason  
Ivan15 : 9/15/2017 9:11 am : link
If only in case of injuries, Jerry should have had some time at RT, Pugh should have spent time at LT, and Flowers should have been tried at either or both guard spots.

Poor planning from an org that prides itself on having versatile players.

I would check out tape of Jerry at OT in Miami, and move him to OT if he looked okay. Fluker is probably the next best option.

Knowing the Giants history, the only change likely will be Fluker or Wheeler to RT with Hart injured.

I might take a chance by flip flopping Pugh and Flowers. At least Flowers should know what the LG is supposed to do.
After looking at tweets, maybe moving Pugh to RT isn't a bad idea  
Ivan15 : 9/15/2017 9:18 am : link
I dismissed it because I don't think he is good there but maybe better than the other alternatives. Then Jones to LG.
RE: I love this line in the article:  
HoustonGiant : 9/15/2017 9:45 am : link
In comment 13599259 smshmth8690 said:
Quote:
'Although Brett Jones received snaps at right guard over the summer with the rest of the starting line, teaming him up alongside of Richburg doesn’t really give the Giants ideal size inside.'

True the size isn't ideal, but the results, albeit preseason, looked better than the Richburg/Jerry combo. imo.


Remember when Denver could plug in any RB and they'd get 1000+ yards? Those guys were always said to be "undersized".
.  
idiotsavant : 9/15/2017 9:48 am : link
Pugh.Jones.Mangold.Hart.Flowers


Pugh.Jones.Mangold.Fluker.Flowers


Pugh.Jones.Mangold.Flowers.Wheeler

12 P \/

EE.Pugh.Jones.Mangold.Flowers.Wheeler+Ellison



13\/


Becks...Ellison.Pugh.Jones.Mangold.Fluker.Flowers.Adams..Shp

............................Manning........................


.............................EE...........................
Since we are throwing out random OL combos  
Beer Man : 9/15/2017 10:07 am : link
Flowers - Jones - Rich - Fluker - Pugh or
Flowers - Fluker - Rich - Jones - Pugh

Put the fat boys in the middle and pound the ball. Put John "Milk Toast" Jerry back in a backup role for good.
Might as well just go "full retard" (to shade the Tropic Thunder  
PatersonPlank : 9/15/2017 10:10 am : link
thread) and completely change things up then. How much can it hurt?

Pugh-Fluker-Richburg-Jerry-Flowers
Flowers needs to stay at LT  
AnnapolisMike : 9/15/2017 10:10 am : link
I do like the idea of Pugh moving to RT if Hart is out.

So Flowers, Jones, Richburg, Jerry, Pugh. It puts everyone in spots they have played in. I think Patty T is right on this one.
RE: John Jerry can play RT  
Greg from LI : 9/15/2017 10:11 am : link
In comment 13599243 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
?


As much as he can play guard, which is to say not at all.
Based on the roster now  
Giants : 9/15/2017 10:22 am : link
get Wheeler on the field. See what he can give you at RT Then if he proves himself give him a shot at LT next season.Next season Flowers should be at RG. For now Flowers Pugh Richburg Jones Wheeler
IMO, moving Pugh drastically changes the whole OL anyway  
PatersonPlank : 9/15/2017 10:23 am : link
, which may not be a bad thing, so why not just completely pull of the scab. Pugh-Fluker-RB-Jerry-Flowers
Take a page from the Texans last night  
The Turk : 9/15/2017 10:25 am : link
roll out 6 offensive linemen - Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, Jerry, Wheeler - with Jones or Fluker added as the 6th on half the downs.
Also something about having Jerry and Flowers on the same side  
PatersonPlank : 9/15/2017 10:26 am : link
just terrifies me (even more than normal with these guys).
It's all about ABJ  
Greg from LI : 9/15/2017 10:29 am : link
Anyone But Jerry. He is the worst, just atrocious. Not to say that the rest of them are much better, but he is the worst lineman I've ever watched start more than one season for the Giants. It's like the Knicks with Dolan's cronies like Allan Houston and Steve Mills - they just keep hanging on despite repeated proof of how incompetent they are.
Given those combos above  
NNJ Tom : 9/15/2017 10:39 am : link
I think the best course of action would be

to get Eli a new VICIS Zero1.
RE: Pugh-Jerry-Richburg-Flowers-Fluker  
Section331 : 9/15/2017 10:41 am : link
In comment 13599255 Chris684 said:
Quote:
..


Even if you wanted to kick Pugh outside, why switch Jerry and Flowers? It would be an easier adjustment for Flowers to play LG than RG, and Jerry will suck anywhere.
Look  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2017 10:44 am : link
I'm not sure how Pugh would feel, or how this move would be football wise, but why move Pugh now when he has basically become a really good LG? It doesn't make sense to me. You have an emerging LG who finally found a home. Why move him. Fix the other shit.
RE: Flowers needs to stay at LT  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2017 10:45 am : link
In comment 13599358 AnnapolisMike said:
Quote:
I do like the idea of Pugh moving to RT if Hart is out.

So Flowers, Jones, Richburg, Jerry, Pugh. It puts everyone in spots they have played in. I think Patty T is right on this one.

If we think the running game sucks now, having Jones and Jerry as the guard tandem would make it even worse, I think.
Fuck it..  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2017 10:47 am : link
at this point put Wheeler at RT and swap Jerry for Jones. I could get behind Flowers-Pugh-Richburg-Jones-Wheeler and see what the fuck happens out there.
It sucks knowing that  
jvm52106 : 9/15/2017 10:53 am : link
there really isn't anything we can do to change this up. I used the example of 1988 where injuries and sub par play forced the Giants to move Jumbo Elliott to LT (after playing very poorly early on at RT briefly), William Roberts to LG and an earlier move of Doug Riesenberg to RT. That line became very dominant at end of 88 and 89-90.

The Giants right now, for lack of options, are stuck with Flowers at LT. He can't be moved elsewhere right now because his technique is so poor already asking him to adjust to another position would be pointless.

LG is Pugh but to me he is the most flexible as far as moving him around. Because of that I would move Pugh to RT and leave him there for the rest of this year, regardless of Bobby Hart's health.

C is Richburg

RG- I would do it by committee and feel of the game. I would start of with Jerry and see how that goes. With Pugh out there next to him he will have a solid veteran helping him. At other times it would be Jones or Fluker.

This gives us our best chance at success.
I meant to say Jones  
jvm52106 : 9/15/2017 10:54 am : link
to LG for now..
RE: It sucks knowing that  
Del Shofner : 9/15/2017 10:55 am : link
In comment 13599446 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
there really isn't anything we can do to change this up. I used the example of 1988 where injuries and sub par play forced the Giants to move Jumbo Elliott to LT (after playing very poorly early on at RT briefly), William Roberts to LG and an earlier move of Doug Riesenberg to RT. That line became very dominant at end of 88 and 89-90.

The Giants right now, for lack of options, are stuck with Flowers at LT. He can't be moved elsewhere right now because his technique is so poor already asking him to adjust to another position would be pointless.

LG is Pugh but to me he is the most flexible as far as moving him around. Because of that I would move Pugh to RT and leave him there for the rest of this year, regardless of Bobby Hart's health.

C is Richburg

RG- I would do it by committee and feel of the game. I would start of with Jerry and see how that goes. With Pugh out there next to him he will have a solid veteran helping him. At other times it would be Jones or Fluker.

This gives us our best chance at success.


Unless I missed it somehow, you didn't say who is at LG.
I'd be willing to bet  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2017 10:56 am : link
that if Hart can't go...it's Flowers-Pugh-Richburg-Jerry-Wheeler for Monday night.
^^^^^  
Del Shofner : 9/15/2017 10:56 am : link
Saw your correction.
RE: I'd be willing to bet  
Del Shofner : 9/15/2017 10:57 am : link
In comment 13599454 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
that if Hart can't go...it's Flowers-Pugh-Richburg-Jerry-Wheeler for Monday night.


On the theory of the fewer changes the better, that's probably right. Unfortunately, I think Hart's injury reduces the chance that Jerry sits.
If no points go up on that board in the first half vs Detroit  
Jimmy Googs : 9/15/2017 11:14 am : link
we should make changes all over that ridiculous Oline...
Isn't the most obvious answer Flowers-Pugh-Richburg-Jerry-Fluker?  
Big Blue Blogger : 9/15/2017 11:50 am : link
That's what the depth chart indicates. I understand the depth chart can mislead. (e.g., Pugh is probably the de facto left tackle, although he has never been listed there.) In this case, though, I think there are reasons to trust the official chart. When was the last time John Jerry took a snap at right tackle?
Sorry, meant Pugh is the de facto BACKUP left tackle.  
Big Blue Blogger : 9/15/2017 11:54 am : link
Anyway, on Giants.com and Ourlads, Fluker is Hart's backup. BBI lists no backup at RT or LG. Not sure why.
My opinion  
PaulN : 9/15/2017 11:56 am : link
Is that Hart and Jerry STINK, and are not starting caliber players, this coaching staff is starting to really frustrate me, they simply do not adjust at all. The line combination that should be made now is this.
Pugh/Flowers/Richburg/Jones/Fluker the line for the future should be this.
Wheeler/Pugh/Richburg/Flowers/New Player. If these idiots could manage to bring in one really good player maybe this could eventually work. But if they continue with their trend this team is in huge trouble, Eli is not able to handle these players, he does not trust this line and it is obvious to anyone with a pulse.
RE: Isn't the most obvious answer Flowers-Pugh-Richburg-Jerry-Fluker?  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2017 11:58 am : link
In comment 13599538 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
That's what the depth chart indicates. I understand the depth chart can mislead. (e.g., Pugh is probably the de facto left tackle, although he has never been listed there.) In this case, though, I think there are reasons to trust the official chart. When was the last time John Jerry took a snap at right tackle?

I think it's clear that Solari and coaches view Fluker as a guard.
RE: RE: Isn't the most obvious answer Flowers-Pugh-Richburg-Jerry-Fluker?  
Big Blue Blogger : 9/15/2017 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13599558 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
I think it's clear that Solari and coaches view Fluker as a guard.
True, but isn't it equally clear that they view Jerry as a guard? Yet two of Pat's three plausible combinations move Jerry out to tackle. I'm not advocating D.J. Fluker at right tackle; just trying to read the available evidence.

The underlying problem is that the Giants may not have a single decent NFL tackle on their roster - except maybe Pugh, and even he is better off inside. Let's hope Solari can work some magic with Wheeler and Bisnowaty by the bye week.
RE: RE: RE: Isn't the most obvious answer Flowers-Pugh-Richburg-Jerry-Fluker?  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2017 12:13 pm : link
In comment 13599581 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
In comment 13599558 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


I think it's clear that Solari and coaches view Fluker as a guard.

True, but isn't it equally clear that they view Jerry as a guard? Yet two of Pat's three plausible combinations move Jerry out to tackle. I'm not advocating D.J. Fluker at right tackle; just trying to read the available evidence.

The underlying problem is that the Giants may not have a single decent NFL tackle on their roster - except maybe Pugh, and even he is better off inside. Let's hope Solari can work some magic with Wheeler and Bisnowaty by the bye week.

I like Pat but that article is a little weak, IMO. She basically just throws a bunch of stuff out there. Jerry isn't playing tackle for this team in any scenario. Unless everyone were to become deathly ill before the game.

It's Wheeler or Pugh at RT if Hart can't go.
Also..  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2017 12:14 pm : link
Bisnowaty looked absolutely dreadful and way worse than Hart at RT during preseason, against backups. I just don't see any scenario where Bisnowaty plays for the team this year.
Wheeler is probably the best  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2017 12:16 pm : link
athlete of the bunch as far as RT prospects go. I think he'll be the choice if Hart is inactive.
The recipe  
Tom from LI : 9/15/2017 12:16 pm : link
to making a shit pie..

Doesn't matter where you put the shit, its still as shit pie..
Playing Wheeler or Bisnowaty would be a reckless move.  
Jimmy Googs : 9/15/2017 12:18 pm : link
But then again, so was not pursuing more O-line options during this past offseason so...
Raanan  
TyreeHelmet : 9/15/2017 12:25 pm : link
In Jordan Raanan latest article he states the Giants are all in on Flowers at LT. They are not moving him and committed to him better or worse. Also said Pugh is probably the best tackle on the team and Fluker may be the best run blocker.
RE: Wheeler is probably the best  
Big Blue Blogger : 9/15/2017 12:28 pm : link
ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
athlete of the bunch as far as RT prospects go. I think he'll be the choice if Hart is inactive.
Another point supporting this view is that Wheeler dressed in Dallas, and Fluker didn't. That means Wheeler would almost certainly have gone in if Hart had come out.

On the other hand, the fact that Hart didn't come out might have reflected the panicked reaction of the coaching staff when they realized that Hart was limping and Wheeler was the only backup tackle in uniform.
Define "best" when it comes to our O-line?  
Jimmy Googs : 9/15/2017 12:28 pm : link
Maybe "least worst" is more suitable...
RE: Define  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2017 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13599613 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Maybe "least worst" is more suitable...

OK that made me laugh
Wheeler  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2017 12:31 pm : link
is essentially in the same spot on the team that Hart was in when drafted. Just wonder if the Giants won't wait as long as they did and just say fuck it and put him in there.
RE: Isn't the most obvious answer Flowers-Pugh-Richburg-Jerry-Fluker?  
BillKo : 9/15/2017 1:05 pm : link
In comment 13599538 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
That's what the depth chart indicates. I understand the depth chart can mislead. (e.g., Pugh is probably the de facto left tackle, although he has never been listed there.) In this case, though, I think there are reasons to trust the official chart. When was the last time John Jerry took a snap at right tackle?


To me it is.

They aren't putting an undrafted rookie out on an island in a starting role to protect Eli.

No way.
I want to see  
est1986 : 9/15/2017 1:32 pm : link
Pugh - Jones - Richburg - Fluker - Flowers

And tell Hart and Jerry to get their ass ready and to go in and play if someone fucks up
Words of Wisdom....  
Doomster : 9/15/2017 1:54 pm : link
Solari was also asked if he had confidence in Wheeler if he had to go into a game at tackle.

“Yes, I am confident in every man on our roster and their preparation and that they are ready,” he said, adding, “(Wheeler) has a role right now: to learn, to develop, become a better football player every day and he’s invested his time.”
RE: Raanan  
Greg from LI : 9/15/2017 1:54 pm : link
In comment 13599606 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In Jordan Raanan latest article he states the Giants are all in on Flowers at LT. They are not moving him and committed to him better or worse. Also said Pugh is probably the best tackle on the team and Fluker may be the best run blocker.


Given that he was far from the biggest culprit Sunday night, I'm OK with that. The biggest need is to replace Jerry, followed by Hart.
It's Jerry this week  
HomerJones45 : 9/15/2017 2:09 pm : link
who will it be next week because these guys take turns playing like crap.

Yeah Flowers is the LT. He has technique issues now, he had them as a rookie, he had them in college. At this point, he will probably always have them.

Might as well try Fluker at guard although don't get your hopes up. SD tried him everywhere on the line except center and he was no good. He didn't draw any attention from the teams that played SD twice a year. This is another one of Jerry's Kids from the bargain bin and probably worth what we paid for him.

Try Jones too. If we aren't going to play him it was a waste of time screwing around with a CFL guy. He's either ready now or he will never be.
look back to the Jets game  
Paulie Walnuts : 9/15/2017 2:21 pm : link
Jerry came out and the whole Offense was improved
Jones is small but he can block for passes...
#1Jerry almost got Eli killed
#2 he sucks on stunts, see note #1
I'm ready to see Jerry on the bench.  
Brown Recluse : 9/15/2017 2:28 pm : link
Enough already. At the very least, Jones and Fluker can run block to a degree. Jerry sucks at everything.
Not much to do on the OL  
AcesUp : 9/15/2017 2:47 pm : link
Put the right side on notice with Jones and Fluker getting some first team reps in practice, but that's about it.

The real answer is to give the OL more help. Tighten it up, get the backs and TEs more involved in protection. I'd like to see more Ellison than we did last week.
RE: I'm ready to see Jerry on the bench.  
Beer Man : 9/15/2017 3:45 pm : link
In comment 13599765 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
Enough already. At the very least, Jones and Fluker can run block to a degree. Jerry sucks at everything.
I was ready two years ago.
Flowers was drafted to play right tackle ....  
Manny in CA : 9/15/2017 4:32 pm : link

Because he can handle the more stronger and physical DEs, not the quick & fast types that play against our left (BB "blind side" offensive tackles ...

The Beatty got hurt and Flowers was forced into left tackle role.

Pugh was drafted as a tackle, but failed miserably on the right side where he was constantly getting bull-rushed, and thrown back ...

Conclusion - Pugh the quicker and technically smarter of the two top tackles belongs on the left. Flowers, the stronger man belongs at right tackle.
RE: Flowers was drafted to play right tackle ....  
Beer Man : 9/15/2017 5:02 pm : link
In comment 13599883 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

Because he can handle the more stronger and physical DEs, not the quick & fast types that play against our left (BB "blind side" offensive tackles ...

The Beatty got hurt and Flowers was forced into left tackle role.

Pugh was drafted as a tackle, but failed miserably on the right side where he was constantly getting bull-rushed, and thrown back ...

Conclusion - Pugh the quicker and technically smarter of the two top tackles belongs on the left. Flowers, the stronger man belongs at right tackle.
I think he was drafted to eventually be the long term solution at LT. I think the plan was to have him start his career by prepping him at one of the Gs, but due to injuries (particularly to Will B.) he was forced into action as a rookie at LT; and has been a BBI whipping post ever since.
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