This board has been killing Eli over the last week, with calls for him being replaced or saying that he is no longer the QB he used to be and needs to retire.
Through 2 games now, the 29 year old Andy Dalton has the following stats:
54.4 Completion %
394 Passing Yards
0 TD's
4 INT's
47.2 Passer Rating
This is a 3-time Pro Bowler. He has a plethora of weapons on his offense. Looks like losing his All-Pro LT might have had a bigger impact on the offense than the Bengals anticipated. Dalton no longer has time to find all of his weapons and the offense has scored a whopping 9 points in 2 games. Sound familiar? Has Dalton also lost it after being a Pro Bowler just last year? Amazing what a crappy OL can do to a good QB.
Maybe your intent?
The problem the Giants have...is they have a pocket passer on a team that has difficulty protecting him.
So... great point?
(note: this is not a shit on Eli discussion. He's our guy, etc. But i dont understand the point of this thread -- "hey this other guy on an AFC team sucks too so go easy on Eli and this means its not his fault!!")
Maybe your intent?
So... great point?
(note: this is not a shit on Eli discussion. He's our guy, etc. But i dont understand the point of this thread -- "hey this other guy on an AFC team sucks too so go easy on Eli and this means its not his fault!!")
My point is, many people, outside of you, have said Dalton was good QB prior to this year, as evidence of his Pro Bowl performance just last year. Yet all of the sudden, his performance has fallen off of a cliff. The main reason for that is his absolutely dreadful OL. If you cant see that that is the point of the thread, im not sure what else to say.
Eli's poor performance on Sunday ... had very little to do with o-line play.
So yeah... still missing the point of this thread? If its that Eli needs 2nd-and-3s (eg a great running game) to succeed, then fine, i guess i see the point. I would expect great QBs not to need a world class running game to succeed, but fine.
Eli's poor performance on Sunday ... had very little to do with o-line play.
So yeah... still missing the point of this thread? If its that Eli needs 2nd-and-3s (eg a great running game) to succeed, then fine, i guess i see the point. I would expect great QBs not to need a world class running game to succeed, but fine.
If you think Eli's poor performance had nothing to do with a poor OL, then I think that's all that needs to be said.
P.S. You dont need a world class running game, you just need A running game. Did you see how many yards the Giants rushed for on Sunday?
Same is true if you think the weak OL play had everything to do with Eli's lousy performance.
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If you think Eli's poor performance had nothing to do with a poor OL, then I think that's all that needs to be said.
Same is true if you think the weak OL play had everything to do with Eli's lousy performance.
I absolutely do not think it has everything to do with it. I thnk posters who say that are wrong. However, I do think it is a big factor. Not having a serviceable OL for 6+ years now.
Regardless if you think he is good or not, most analyst has him ranked as a Top 15 QB. He put up 43 tds to 15 int's over the past 2 years. Those are pretty good stats and the Bengals have had a solid offense the past few years, now they look like one of the worst offenses in the NFL. The skill position players have remained the same. The only difference is that the OL has taken a major step back this year, and in turn the offense has also looked deplorable.
How so? Because you dont agree with it?
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thread.
How so? Because you dont agree with it?
I think it's less that he doesn't agree with it and more that he finds thinly-veiled and reverse-engineered defenses of Eli to be kind of pathetic. Just my interpretation.
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In comment 13599367 Keith said:
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thread.
How so? Because you dont agree with it?
I think it's less that he doesn't agree with it and more that he finds thinly-veiled and reverse-engineered defenses of Eli to be kind of pathetic. Just my interpretation.
Says the 2 people that have been vehemently bashing Eli over the past week. Shocker.
there were a number of times where eli coild of stepped up and jad an open passing lane but instead he panicked and threw it into the ground...
he missed marshall wide open a couple of times, he looked hesitant and not sure of himself, did the ol do a good job? no but eli certainly was part of the problem as well
there were a number of times where eli coild of stepped up and jad an open passing lane but instead he panicked and threw it into the ground...
he missed marshall wide open a couple of times, he looked hesitant and not sure of himself, did the ol do a good job? no but eli certainly was part of the problem as well
Completely agree. Eli did not have a good game at all. He looks unsure of himself and overly jittery. I dont think Eli is blameless in all of this. I do think that the major lack in trust with the OL has a big part of that though, and their general shittiness. That is all I am trying to point out.
I don't think the majority of people are really disputing that Eli (or Andy Dalton) would perform better if the OL was playing better. The question is whether they're actually making a bad situation worse. Even as a huge Eli apologist, I have to say, I think the answer might be yes (and this is VERY clearly the case with Dalton).
When you watch both of them, there are opportunities that are just flat out being missed. Last night, with the game on the line, Dalton was well protected and threw a ball 5 yards short of an open receiver. It wasn't the line's fault...it was his. You see the same thing with Eli too. I understand the "why" as to his lack of confidence in the OL, his altered internal clock, and his general jumpiness in the pocket. But at this point, the reality on the ground is the line is playing poorly AND SO IS ELI. I generally think the blame is correctly placed in every facet....OL-talent, lack of a running game, coaching/scheme, QB play. Improve one and it will alleviate some of the issues with the others.
Just because you arent bashing him as a person doesnt mean you aren't saying he is the biggest culprit for this offenses downfall. You and Hoya have repeatedly said his play has been terrible. While I agree that it hasnt been good, I am only pointing out the reason for it.
I'm just looking for one instance, I won't even hold you to the "repeatedly".
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was offensive line great? absolutely not, waz eli great? absolutely not..
there were a number of times where eli coild of stepped up and jad an open passing lane but instead he panicked and threw it into the ground...
he missed marshall wide open a couple of times, he looked hesitant and not sure of himself, did the ol do a good job? no but eli certainly was part of the problem as well
Completely agree. Eli did not have a good game at all. He looks unsure of himself and overly jittery. I dont think Eli is blameless in all of this. I do think that the major lack in trust with the OL has a big part of that though, and their general shittiness. That is all I am trying to point out.
but qb has to help with this, if you notcie oline play is garbage around the league...
eli has to have better pocket awareness, now if a guy comes untouched that is different, but when the tackles ride the defensive end wide, step up, find the open space...
They are trying to reconstruct the offense on the fly after letting Jones and Sanu walk and it is not going well. They may get it straightened out but at the moment, they've got problems.
On the "Im Sorry, but Eli is the problem thread"?
Keith : 9/13/2017 2:21 pm : link : reply
unfortunately I think you are right.
Is that not you agreeing that Eli is the problem? Sorry if I misread if you werent saying something else.
BBi blows sometimes.
Tell you what, start a reasonable, well thought out thread about Eli and I'll be happy to share my opinion on him and our offense.
Oh and I wasn't agreeing with the thread title, I was agreeing with what was written in the OP.
I'm just looking for one instance, I won't even hold you to the "repeatedly".
[quote]bigbluehoya : 9/13/2017 5:27 pm : link : reply
Nobody is complaining about 2014 Eli right now. We're talking about the last 15-20 games in which the offense's results have been miserable, and Eli's play has been somewhere between poor and fair.[\quote]
Sorry, not terrible, just poor. You said the offense was miserable. Again, I dont totally disagree that Eli has played poorly. Just pointing out that its happening to other qb's too and the common thread is a bad OL.
They are trying to reconstruct the offense on the fly after letting Jones and Sanu walk and it is not going well. They may get it straightened out but at the moment, they've got problems.
AJ Green, Mixon has been raved about by just about every analyst, along with Hill and Bernard. Eifert had a bad back last year, by all accounts he is healthy this year. They just drafted Ross in the first round this year.
This is not a thread about me coming after you. Sorry for turning it into that. I was simply trying to point out how other good QB's have experienced a huge drop off when they do not have an adequate OL. If you disagree, that is fine.
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You clearly caught me red handed "repeatedly bashing Eli". I'm sorry.
This is not a thread about me coming after you. Sorry for turning it into that. I was simply trying to point out how other good QB's have experienced a huge drop off when they do not have an adequate OL. If you disagree, that is fine.
or dalton is just garbage? i saw multiple times he missed wide open receivers
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In comment 13599420 Keith said:
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You clearly caught me red handed "repeatedly bashing Eli". I'm sorry.
This is not a thread about me coming after you. Sorry for turning it into that. I was simply trying to point out how other good QB's have experienced a huge drop off when they do not have an adequate OL. If you disagree, that is fine.
or dalton is just garbage? i saw multiple times he missed wide open receivers
I mean, he may or may not be garbage. How do garbage QB's become 3 time pro bowlers though? Major flaw in the system 3 times?
Dalton missed opportunities last night. I didn't watch their first game, but last night wasn't solely on the OL.
In regards to Eli, the OL hasn't been good, but he's left some opportunities on the field and this is going back to last year. We need Eli to step his game up and if he's still elite, he should be able to step up more than he has. It's not all on Eli and it's only one game(one where arguably the best offensive threat in the NFL was out), but he still left some opportunities out there. We shouldn't expect Eli to be Dalton, we should expect Eli to play better than he is, because he is better than he's playing.
He's playing scared, IMO. He's never liked to get hit, but now he's watching the rush more than the progressions and that's a problem. We need Eli to step up.
i really always saw dalton as someone who has talent but would never carry a team, he is a game manager..
Dalton missed opportunities last night. I didn't watch their first game, but last night wasn't solely on the OL.
In regards to Eli, the OL hasn't been good, but he's left some opportunities on the field and this is going back to last year. We need Eli to step his game up and if he's still elite, he should be able to step up more than he has. It's not all on Eli and it's only one game(one where arguably the best offensive threat in the NFL was out), but he still left some opportunities out there. We shouldn't expect Eli to be Dalton, we should expect Eli to play better than he is, because he is better than he's playing.
He's playing scared, IMO. He's never liked to get hit, but now he's watching the rush more than the progressions and that's a problem. We need Eli to step up.
Agreed that Eli needs to play better. He is shell shocked. I also think he cant do it by himself though. He is 36, not 30. He needs time and cant be expected to constantly step up in the pocket on each play. You cannot go through your reads while scrambling. You end up getting locked on 1-2 WR's in that case. Which seems to be what is happening.
i really always saw dalton as someone who has talent but would never carry a team, he is a game manager..
Fair opinion. I dont disagree. I used Dalton as an example, and it is probably not a great one. Eli is a much better QB. I merely was trying to point out that their offense, with all of their weapons and an offense that was top half in the league last year, has now dropped to possibly one of the worst in the league.
He's playing scared though. Its not like every drop back is pressure. There are plenty of times throughout a game where he has a pocket and he's not doing what he's suppsoed to do or he's missing a guy or he doesn't look to his 2nd or 3rd read. That's on him.
Someone posted a link yesterday to defend Eli and it's amazing that people blame the line for that play. It was the play where Eli missed Marshall. He had 2 guys wide open to the left, but eli felt pressure coming from the right and threw it towards his first read. A QB playing well will dump that to the RB easy for a first down. A guy posed a question on that play, how is he supposed to know Vereen was open when he had a guy in his face? Should he not read the LB's dropping into a zone? Does he not know that his RB's job is to leak into that space? It was an easy play, but Eli heard footsteps and made a bad play. There are a handful of those plays per game. If we have any shot, we need Eli to maximize those plays we do get.
I think this thread got misconstrued. The bar is most certainly not set at Dalton and I wasnt comparing Eli to Dalton, per say. Eli is the much better QB, I dont think that is even a debate. I think this trend will continue this weekend as well, as we saw plenty of bad QB play from Brady, all the way down to Scott Tolzien. The point is the HORRIBLE OL play that seems to be league wide. I am just hoping McAdoo and Co. really earn their money here and adjust to this, or else its going to be a long season.
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How so? Because you dont agree with it?
Because you didn't include the fact that many people have felt Dalton is one of the reasons the Bengals have not done more with the talent they have. Dalton has played some bad games and comes up way short in the post season.
Your point about Oline loses its luster when you see Dalton miss a wide open Lafell that would have been a walk in touchdown.
Dalton was never on Eli's level...
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In comment 13599367 Keith said:
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thread.
How so? Because you dont agree with it?
Because you didn't include the fact that many people have felt Dalton is one of the reasons the Bengals have not done more with the talent they have. Dalton has played some bad games and comes up way short in the post season.
Your point about Oline loses its luster when you see Dalton miss a wide open Lafell that would have been a walk in touchdown.
Dalton was never on Eli's level...
Dalton never reached the same level Eli played at his peak. But Eli has not carried the Giants on his back in quite a while either. I'd be careful looking back at Eli's past in order to predict what kind of QB he will be moving forward. We might be very happy a QB like Dalton as a replacement for Eli when he is gone.
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In comment 13599367 Keith said:
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thread.
How so? Because you dont agree with it?
Because you didn't include the fact that many people have felt Dalton is one of the reasons the Bengals have not done more with the talent they have. Dalton has played some bad games and comes up way short in the post season.
Your point about Oline loses its luster when you see Dalton miss a wide open Lafell that would have been a walk in touchdown.
Dalton was never on Eli's level...
Would it have been better for you if I made this about Russell Wilson?
51.9 compl %
158 yards
0 tds
0 int
He is also more mobile and most analysts would consider him a better QB than Manning at the moment, wouldnt you agree? The point is the same. Horrible OL has led to a dropoff in production in that offense as well.
Link - ( New Window )
He threw for 21 tds and 11 ints. 64% completion. I dont consider those great stats either? Eli was at 63% with 26 tds and 16 ints. Not that far off.
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who seems to be worse than 20 other QBs in the league, most of whom eating a smaller % of their teams cap.
So... great point?
(note: this is not a shit on Eli discussion. He's our guy, etc. But i dont understand the point of this thread -- "hey this other guy on an AFC team sucks too so go easy on Eli and this means its not his fault!!")
My point is, many people, outside of you, have said Dalton was good QB prior to this year, as evidence of his Pro Bowl performance just last year. Yet all of the sudden, his performance has fallen off of a cliff. The main reason for that is his absolutely dreadful OL. If you cant see that that is the point of the thread, im not sure what else to say.
In Dalton's case, yes it's pretty easy to point to - his team lost two very good linemen in the offseason and his performance is suffering. He's also 29, so he theoretically should be in the prime of his career. Seeing a downturn in his performance does make an outside factor (such as decline in OL quality) seem likely.
Eli, on the other hand, is 36. That's an age where some degree physical decline is not only possible, but it is somewhat likely. And Eli's line didn't get worse overnight in either of the past two offseasons. In fact, this line is similar in personnel and quality as the line in 2015, when the offense was much more productive.
Plus, as Deej pointed out, there's the red hair.
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take Wilson stats from 1 game and compare them? Did you see what Wilson did last year?
He threw for 21 tds and 11 ints. 64% completion. I dont consider those great stats either? Eli was at 63% with 26 tds and 16 ints. Not that far off.
And both lost 7 fumbles. Wilson threw for less than 200 more yards. All in all, not a whole lot of difference betweem the two last year statistically. Which is my point.
It could be. But the difference between the two is that you can make a very strong case the Ravens and the Texans before the season were looked at if not top 5, but top 10 defenses, particularly in the front 7.
The Giants were not facing that level of a defense on Sunday and weren't able to do anything. The Lions defense this week is just as porous as the Cowboys, but I doubt (just like last December) we will be able to take advantage.
So if the Giants can't do anything against these two poor defenses, that is a very alarming sign because the next set of teams they will face are much better up front than the teams the Giants are facing now.
And since we have seen how the Giants o-line plays in Philadelphia the last few years, it is very conceivable to see them railroaded again down there the next week.
ditto
QBR-86
Completion %-63%
Yards-4000
TD's:26
INT:16
YPA:6.7
Fumbles lost:4
Wilson:
QBR-93
Completion %-65%
Yards-4200(ran for 260 yards and a TD too)
TDs-21
INT-11
YPA-7.7
Fumbles lost:0
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will be quite appropriate if the Giants lose to Detroit and look bad doing it.
It could be. But the difference between the two is that you can make a very strong case the Ravens and the Texans before the season were looked at if not top 5, but top 10 defenses, particularly in the front 7.
The Giants were not facing that level of a defense on Sunday and weren't able to do anything. The Lions defense this week is just as porous as the Cowboys, but I doubt (just like last December) we will be able to take advantage.
So if the Giants can't do anything against these two poor defenses, that is a very alarming sign because the next set of teams they will face are much better up front than the teams the Giants are facing now.
And since we have seen how the Giants o-line plays in Philadelphia the last few years, it is very conceivable to see them railroaded again down there the next week.
I agree with your sentiments. However, the Lions also have a pretty good DL. This will be a good test to see what we can do and what adjustments were made from last week. It would be REALLY bad if we threw up another stinker and go into philly 0-2 off of 2 bad offensive performances.
This is very fair and true. It's part of the reason why I was in favor of the Webb pick. The alternative to even a mediocre qb is scary.
The downsides to that are the cap ramifications when you're paying that guy franchise qb money...you're going to have holes and need to take some chances on your roster. That's why I sympathize with the front office when people crucify them about the OL because I don't exactly see where the resources would come to fix it. They spent big on defense (quite well), have Eli making top qb money and drafted well enough recently to have two absolute studs + some solid role players that need to be paid shortly. Now they're not completely absolved because the OL may be a total liability but there wasn't a whole lot of margin for errror here. When you have the albatross of a top qb contract tied to an average qb (which we need to accept Eli may now be) you need things to break perfect for you to compete for a title.
I'm hoping that isn't the case. That's why I'm being slightly critical of Eli. I remember how he played with a dog shit OL in 2015 and I'm hoping he can return to that level. The coaches and QB need to figure this out because while the OL is horrible, there's a lot of talent on the roster.
QBR-86
Completion %-63%
Yards-4000
TD's:26
INT:16
YPA:6.7
Fumbles lost:4
Wilson:
QBR-93
Completion %-65%
Yards-4200(ran for 260 yards and a TD too)
TDs-21
INT-11
YPA-7.7
Fumbles lost:0
Not sure where you are getting those stats from, but Wilson lost 2 fumbles per NFL.com. Regardless, I see both stat lines as average at bet in today's nfl. There is not a whole lot of difference between the 2. 7 more turnovers from Eli is significant, but Wilson didnt have a great year by most standards and was a HUGE drop in production from his previous year.
This. Dalton is overrated. Always has been. He has been been a close enough imitation of being a franchise QB to have held onto that job for a long time, but he isn't a franchise QB. I hate saying that because he seems like a nice guy. But they'll never win a Super Bowl with him unless he isn't the reason they win the Super Bowl (like 2000 Ravens and Trent Dilfer). Oddly enough, they can make that happen if they commit to Joe Mixon as the focal point of their offense and get another superstar or two on defense.
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During the Stafford is overpaid bi#chfest - my example for his worth was that if you put stafford on the bengals of the last 5 years they are making at least an afc title game and maybe a super bowl. Dalton stinks, has a subpar arm, and the bengals should be drafting his replacement.
This. Dalton is overrated. Always has been. He has been been a close enough imitation of being a franchise QB to have held onto that job for a long time, but he isn't a franchise QB. I hate saying that because he seems like a nice guy. But they'll never win a Super Bowl with him unless he isn't the reason they win the Super Bowl (like 2000 Ravens and Trent Dilfer). Oddly enough, they can make that happen if they commit to Joe Mixon as the focal point of their offense and get another superstar or two on defense.
The problem is, Mixon has nowhere to run. 17 carries and is averaging 2.6 yards a carry. The bad OL hurts offenses two fold. No running game puts a TON of pressure on the QB to make up for it.
Wilson Stats - ( New Window )
So wilson had 13 total TO's, Eli had 20. That's pretty big on the surface, but obviously you'd have to do a deeper dive into each TO.
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lost 7 fumbles?? Eli had 20 TO's on the season, Wilson had 11.
Wilson Stats - ( New Window )
Ok, and where are you seeing WIlson lost 7 fumbles??
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In comment 13599355 hitdog42 said:
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During the Stafford is overpaid bi#chfest - my example for his worth was that if you put stafford on the bengals of the last 5 years they are making at least an afc title game and maybe a super bowl. Dalton stinks, has a subpar arm, and the bengals should be drafting his replacement.
This. Dalton is overrated. Always has been. He has been been a close enough imitation of being a franchise QB to have held onto that job for a long time, but he isn't a franchise QB. I hate saying that because he seems like a nice guy. But they'll never win a Super Bowl with him unless he isn't the reason they win the Super Bowl (like 2000 Ravens and Trent Dilfer). Oddly enough, they can make that happen if they commit to Joe Mixon as the focal point of their offense and get another superstar or two on defense.
The problem is, Mixon has nowhere to run. 17 carries and is averaging 2.6 yards a carry. The bad OL hurts offenses two fold. No running game puts a TON of pressure on the QB to make up for it.
Throw his first game out, 9 yards on 8 carries against the B-More defense. It was his first professional game. Last night he got 9 carries and had 36 yards, a decent 4.0 ypc clip. He'll get better, and he is the best RB they have. They need to give him the ball 20+ times a game and he'll find room to run. But you can't really get a guy like Mixon going by giving him the ball a few times per game. They need to treat him like the Cowboys did Elliott last year and like the Jaguars and Vikings are with Fournette and Cook this year.
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In comment 13599529 Keith said:
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lost 7 fumbles?? Eli had 20 TO's on the season, Wilson had 11.
Wilson Stats - ( New Window )
Ok, and where are you seeing WIlson lost 7 fumbles??
Admitted I misread. Only lost 2 fumbles. 7 TO difference. While that is a big difference, I also think Wilson is able to avoid pressure better than Eli, which leads to less hits. All in all, pretty average years from both.
Agree, except the next time Eli can do that may be never as well...
Absolutely agree. He was nothing short of heroic in that game. We need that Eli back. I don't want him to take that many hard shots, but I want him to stand in there with courage and make the big throws, not 3 yard out routes to the TE short of the sticks.
That's somewhat true, but I think they miss Sanu, Marvin Jones, Andrew Whitworth, and Kevin Zeitler more. At some point, letting so many free agents walk out the door is going to hurt the team and expose the QB.
I recall last season watching the Bengals-Washington London game and thinking I'd rather have Kirk Cousins and I don't even think that much of him.
I don't think much of Dalton, though. He's really not that good. AJ Green has done wonders for him over the years. There are like 20 QB's I'd take over Dalton. Cousins over Dalton is a no-brainer.
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In comment 13599547 gmen9892 said:
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In comment 13599529 Keith said:
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lost 7 fumbles?? Eli had 20 TO's on the season, Wilson had 11.
Wilson Stats - ( New Window )
Ok, and where are you seeing WIlson lost 7 fumbles??
Admitted I misread. Only lost 2 fumbles. 7 TO difference. While that is a big difference, I also think Wilson is able to avoid pressure better than Eli, which leads to less hits. All in all, pretty average years from both.
One thing to note is when Eli is tackled or hit he is stationary, leading to more fumbles, whereas Wilson is on the run.
Are we expecting him to be 100% on the 10% of the time he has a clean(ish) pocket and there's a receiver open? Maybe we are.
Are we expecting him to be 100% on the 10% of the time he has a clean(ish) pocket and there's a receiver open? Maybe we are.
That's not really accurate. You should watch the all-22.
This is also true. The ginger thing is a major issue.