I just give this as my take among all these Eli threads of whether he is done or not and why I can't stand discussing Eli. My answer to this pressing question is not unique, his skills have definitely eroded somewhat, the question is whether they have eroded to the point that it matters, and I think it is hard to say because the offense is very low-risk and the line is awful. So, it is hard to say how much of it is Eli, the line, or the offense.
What is unique though is the level of scrutiny that he gets which makes fans of him like me very sensitive. Eli can have a great game, throw one pick that might not even be his fault and the whole week we talk about how Eli is prone to INT's or that he isn't elite or even good. You look at other QBs, like Carson Wentz or Dak, and they have had crappy games and everyone still focuses on the positive. If Eli did what Wentz did yesterday in the fourth quarter, throw a pick that basicslly went off the helmet off his own player, got sacked multiple times for not getting rid off the ball, completed 55% of his passes, the talk would be how Eli is not good. Prescott had a miserable game and everyone looks for excuses. It's not him, it's the two great cornerbacks or Von Miller. It's just frustrating and it leads me to reflexively stick up for Eli even if his skills are diminishing.
He's a grown man and can take care of himself. He doesn't need defending.
That's not the point. He is prone to INT's, but every game doesn't fit into a narrative and every play isn't indicative. The reason he is prone to INTs is because he makes throws others wouldn't dare (Tyree, and Manningham plays were good examples of when it worked out). Eli never got benefit even in beginning of his career
If ever the Giants needed somebody, anybody that can at least run out of trouble without falling on his face, fumbling, taking a needless sack or throwing the ball into the ground...its NOW. It ain't going to happen and those who think the OL is suddenly going to turn things around, you haven't been watching the last few years.
The perfect storm for a bad season is upon us. Even Beckham and a solid defense isn't enough...and frankly, if any team's future depends on one player to carry the team anywhere, that's a team living on borrowed time, or is just damn lucky.
I guess it started with the whole draft thing, and also him being Peyton's brother.
He's always been held to an unreasonable standard, as compared to other QB's.
The surprising thing is the level of criticism that comes from Giants fans.
Now we all know(or at least most of us) that it's BS, but perception is reality and I feel like that's the perception of Eli. Being that he's been so unfairly criticized in his career, a lot of us have had to defend him a LOT. Whether it's to outside fans, other Giants fans or anyone else that doesn't really know the true Eli.
Now here we are. He's older, he's not playing well and he looks like he's scared to get hit. Some of those people can't stop defending him and IMO, they can't see the reality of the situation.
All that being said, I'll never get mad at the Eli homers that still defend him tooth and nail. If theres ever a guy that deserves it, it's Eli. Me personally, I feel like I do both, defend his honor, but also see reality.
Can we play 2-3 games before making definitive judgements about the entire season???
I'm sure most thought Dallas was a shoe in one day ago for the NFC east - how does that look today? How about Jacksonville and Minnesota?
The season is a 16 game marathon. A lot will change between now and December. If someone predicted 11-5 last year after the Green Bay game (2-3), you would have said they were nuts.
That s my opinion.
Another reason is the short passing game. That has just never been Eli's strength. He is not a Joe Montana or Tom Brady. Eli needs to throw the ball downfield. He is one of the best in the game at that. But it is hard to have a downfield passing attack when the OL is allowing jailbreak after jailbreak.
No running game. You need a running game to keep the LBers in and to keep the safeties honest. No running will lead to INTs.
The one thing I do fault Eli for is ball security. He does not keep two hands on the ball. He tries but has a tendency to drop the other hand when he has to move in the pocket. Maybe the glove will help.
Another reason is the short passing game. That has just never been Eli's strength. He is not a Joe Montana or Tom Brady. Eli needs to throw the ball downfield. He is one of the best in the game at that. But it is hard to have a downfield passing attack when the OL is allowing jailbreak after jailbreak.
No running game. You need a running game to keep the LBers in and to keep the safeties honest. No running will lead to INTs.
The one thing I do fault Eli for is ball security. He does not keep two hands on the ball. He tries but has a tendency to drop the other hand when he has to move in the pocket. Maybe the glove will help.
You are making it sound like this is new to Eli. He's always been prone to turnovers. The reasons.....he gets locked into guys and makes throws he shouldnt. He takes a lot of chances and has thrown the ball up for grabs a lot. Eli has always been a bit of a gunslinger who took chances.
That kind of shit is completely unacceptable.
To me, it is EXACTLY like the crap Simms used to take - unless you look and play like John Unitas, you'll be run out of town on a rail, and take tremendous criticism until that day.
He's a grown man and can take care of himself. He doesn't need defending.
Great point, dad
Or.... They could be wrong again, as usual.
He's been all time great Giant & won't be fully appreciated by some until he's gone.
That s my opinion.
I think it's a bit of an open question whether he's still that QB. And the logical follow-up question to that is, if he's not still that type of QB, is it because of him, the OL, the scheme, the playcalling, or some combination of those.
The fact is, down two scores with two minutes to go last week, Eli didn't take chances trying to make a play on the last drive. He threw 9 passes, completed 8 of them, 7 of which were 10 yards or less. It stood out to me because it was so different from the gunslinger Eli that we've all seen throughout his career. There was very little risk left in trying to empty the chamber at that point - even another pick in that situation wouldn't really have hurt, since they were going to lose anyway if they didn't try to make something happen.
I look at it as one of (or combination of) two things: either BMc was conceding defeat and didn't want to put anything else on film for future opponents to look at, or Eli's trust in the OL was just so shaken at that point that he was not willing to stand in there for a likely hit just to chase an unlikely victory at that point.
If you chronicle his career only the 2006 to likely the 2010 years was he behind a good OL.
2004-2007 they were building an OL(Snee Mackenzie Ohara); 07 obviously the best because there was Plax -Smith- the TE -the RBs. '08 might have been even better except for The Incident.
09 you saw the erosion that line start due to age or injury;
'10 was good enough until Philly.
11-- as often mentioned here Eli carried the team in spite of the OL.
'12- was the pits and forced Reese to finally go OL high.
'13-16+1/16--we've had 'projects' and 'reachs' in front of him. And the prospects look no better for all ''17.
I'm generally an Eli defender but have pulled out lots of the few hairs I have when he has his WHAT WAS HE THINKING? moments.
I love the kid like he's my own but the reality is he's a gunslinger now (still)afraid of his protection after all these years.
I'll still defend him when IMHO necessary.Like above.
Bottomline is that the OL is what it is and our highly paid QB and coaches need to put their heads together to figure it out.
Root for the jersey ... they are grown men that couldn't care less about you. Sorry, but it's true.
I love Eli, but reality is reality - and it's not pretty. The OL is a joke, but he does not look right - and QB's tend to fall off a cliff once the "decline" sets in. He was terrible week 1 - much like the rest of the offense.
Go Giants.
I hate the Cowboys, but I even recognize that guys like Roger Staubach and Troy aikman have the pelts they earned. Two time SB MVP puts him in exclusive company - all of which is highly revered - which is another bone of contention to the perception of Eli.
I didn't even like Eli for his draft antics at the time, but the shit talk was infuriating.
I feel the same way today (V+3515).
It has been proven time and again here, but the average fan generally has no fucking regard for titles and how difficult they are to achieve. I still vividly remember Panthers fans saying after they lost to the Patriots in the SB that they didn't care because they'd be back soon. It took them 12 years to get back and they still don't have a trophy.
All good points and I agree 100%
It has been proven time and again here, but the average fan generally has no fucking regard for titles and how difficult they are to achieve. I still vividly remember Panthers fans saying after they lost to the Patriots in the SB that they didn't care because they'd be back soon. It took them 12 years to get back and they still don't have a trophy.
I don't get the lack of appreciation either. In 30 years as a sports fan I have never been as singularly happy as I was on that day. Entire franchises have never had anything that would approach it.
I swore to myself after the Tyree play that if the Giants won that game I would name my first born son Eli. And I did.
Quote:
Giant Mike and I said on V1 that we'd gladly trade in several years of bad play for a SB. Then we won one 4 years later and said the same thing.
It has been proven time and again here, but the average fan generally has no fucking regard for titles and how difficult they are to achieve. I still vividly remember Panthers fans saying after they lost to the Patriots in the SB that they didn't care because they'd be back soon. It took them 12 years to get back and they still don't have a trophy.
I don't get the lack of appreciation either. In 30 years as a sports fan I have never been as singularly happy as I was on that day. Entire franchises have never had anything that would approach it.
I swore to myself after the Tyree play that if the Giants won that game I would name my first born son Eli. And I did.
Ha, I tried, but in the end my wife just couldn't go along with it with 100% confidence, but she liked it enough that it was a top two finalist.
And yes, I'm in the same boat as you, Fatman, and Giant Mike when it comes to Eli, and I think that's well known around here.
I'm sure most thought Dallas was a shoe in one day ago for the NFC east - how does that look today?
When I have bitched and moaned during a handful of down years, I bitched about the overwhelming injuries or the sieve we call an O-line, but not Eli. Had we gotten another QB in '04, we might very well be the Jets or the Browns. People should NOT look a gift horse in the mouth. Eli is not only a great QB, but an even greater human being.
Link - ( New Window )
But, like FMiC stated above, what I don't get is downplaying the importance of the titles. I've seen "ring counters" like myself being criticized and I can't figure it out for the life of me. If it's not about the titles, and remembering where I was and the people I was able to share them with, then what is being a sports fan about?
Eli Manning turned two crushing title losses into exhilarating and eternal titles. I watched that happen with people I really care about that have been through the same highs and lows as Giants fans. Those moments are going with me to my grave. I can't imagine why any Giant fan would feel something less. If they do, I feel genuinely sorry for them.
I do not discount the factors of the OL and the mediocre running backs in recent years, but there is no question that Eli is not playing well either. He is a proven champion and also proven as an inconsistent or streaky passer--throughout his career. It should be possible to acknowledge the obvious decline without demeaning his career or his talent during his prime. I still believe that he is capable of playing at a high level, but cannot imagine what the hell Reese was thinking in not preparing a better line for an aging QB.
It has been proven time and again here, but the average fan generally has no fucking regard for titles and how difficult they are to achieve. I still vividly remember Panthers fans saying after they lost to the Patriots in the SB that they didn't care because they'd be back soon. It took them 12 years to get back and they still don't have a trophy.
I've been as vocal a critic of Eli over the past week as anyone (although I've tried to be fair, measured and use stats and context as much as possible in doing so). And I am and always will be a fan of Eli's and proud of the way he has represented our Giants and grateful for the championships he delivered.
That said, I do not think that necessarily exempts him from discussion on here about whether or not he is in decline, about whether or not he's part of the offensive issues, about how he can be a part of the required improvement if the team is going to be a contender, etc. Those championships will live forever; that shouldn't prevent us from also discussing the present. Just as it's not fair to apply revisionist history to the past, it's also not always fair to apply nostalgia and sentimentality to the present/future, IMO.
I'm a fan of the Giants, first and foremost. Of course I want to see Eli win a third championship. But even more so, I want to see the Giants get a fifth Lombardi trophy. Any criticisms I've levied have been in the context of the latter.
I think we're in the midst of long enough funk that it is fair to criticize him at this point. This isn't a one game knee jerk. I only recently piped up because I saw the opposite, people pointing the finger everywhere but at Eli. I don't even see a ton of "bashing" either, the thread title says it all. Not all criticism is bashing, but it's being taken that way because of sentiment. If you're calling Eli names or alluding to the "Eli Manning face", you can F right off. However, are you less of a fan because you're accepting the increasingly likely reality that our current problems may extend beyond the OL?
But, like FMiC stated above, what I don't get is downplaying the importance of the titles. I've seen "ring counters" like myself being criticized and I can't figure it out for the life of me. If it's not about the titles, and remembering where I was and the people I was able to share them with, then what is being a sports fan about?
Eli Manning turned two crushing title losses into exhilarating and eternal titles. I watched that happen with people I really care about that have been through the same highs and lows as Giants fans. Those moments are going with me to my grave. I can't imagine why any Giant fan would feel something less. If they do, I feel genuinely sorry for them.
I mostly agree with this. The titles are the most important thing and they sustain you for a long time and you can always look back on the great memories in the bad times. For instance, the Ravens and the Falcons games in 2012 were more tolerable because we had won it all the year before. Heck, even the Philly debacle and the GB blowout were more tolerable because we had won it in 2007. With that said, I do watch them every week and the losses sting a lot, if they didn't I probably wouldn't care and wouldn't watch. So, the titles only goes so far in terms of blunting the impact of bad losses or times or we wouldn't watch anymore.
Root for the jersey ... they are grown men that couldn't care less about you. Sorry, but it's true.
I love Eli, but reality is reality - and it's not pretty. The OL is a joke, but he does not look right - and QB's tend to fall off a cliff once the "decline" sets in. He was terrible week 1 - much like the rest of the offense.
Go Giants.
I agree with this. I root for the team, the uniform. Don't commit crimes is all I ask of a player.
And Eli has not been unfairly treated at all: as of today he has collected the 2nd most money from NFL pay checks in history (only Peyton pocketed more), his two Super Bowl MVPs could have been just justifiably given to Justin Tuck, and in which one of those seasons in which he wasn't named All-Pro did you feel he should have been?
This urge to defend/protect Eli from criticism is laughable to me, frankly.
We know the OL issue, but echoing another poster, I also feel that a "Hall of Fame locked" QB-- as so many in BBI so admantly stated -- should not need to have everything working to before he can do his job.
Let it go. You'll live longer.
Let it go. You'll live longer.
Correct. How about just not getting offended? It's not hard to do.
Just throwing this out there... hormones?