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Realistic views only, please: What to do with this OL?

Beezer : 9/19/2017 7:16 am
Sure, there are other issues with the offense, but I think we can all arrive at this agreement: The problems begin and end with this offensive line.

Is there someone on this bench who might spark something? Wheeler? Fluker? Yeah, no ... probably not.

So are we going to be treated to a steady diet of the same all season, and in turn, listen to folks lay it on Eli Manning? Damn, I hope not.

But what are the alternatives?

In the more recent history of the NFL, have there been in-season trades for offensive linemen? Not exactly the thing you'd expect another team to do, unless, of course, they believe THEIR season is going nowhere, a lineman is nearing the end but still has some gas, and they want some value in return. But is this realistic?

And then there's the FA route. Guys sitting at home are sitting at home for a reason. Michael Oher came up ... Nick Mangold came up ... a smattering of other names have come up. Are they just names now? Would any of these guys, as "done" as they've been deemed to be, STILL be an upgrade for the Giants at this point?

It's too early to tank the season. 0-2 teams can and do make adjustments and in this division, parity seems to be the order of the day, at least for the moment.

What to do, what to do?
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RE: Wasn't Fluker fitted for a boot?  
bigblue1124 : 9/19/2017 7:59 am : link
In comment 13605776 jcn56 said:
Quote:
I thought the main reason he's not available was injury?


According to the active roster last night he was a go but he may have been an emergency player hence the move of Pugh.
Don t make a trade out of desparation  
joeinpa : 9/19/2017 8:00 am : link
I don't think it would help and only served to compromise the future.

Other than moving guys around I m not certain there are any other valid options.

Unfortunately, it s beginning to seem this coaching staff is a one trick pony. They have a system and seem unwilling or incapable of making changes.

Finally Stanford s ability to keep plays alive, was in stark contrast to Eli.

Not so certain anymore that fixing the offensive line is the only thing that needs fixing.

Have to agree that Flowers must go  
section125 : 9/19/2017 8:01 am : link
to RG or RT.
Pugh must go to LT.
And I do not think moving Flowers  
SomeFan : 9/19/2017 8:02 am : link
to RT or guard will improve his play. He will more than likely just be a bad to mediocre player anywhere on the OL.

I do not think our coach has the goods to work around the issues.
RE: And I do not think moving Flowers  
The_Boss : 9/19/2017 8:04 am : link
In comment 13605793 SomeFan said:
Quote:
to RT or guard will improve his play. He will more than likely just be a bad to mediocre player anywhere on the OL.

I do not think our coach has the goods to work around the issues.


Flowers is not long for the NFL. And we wasted a top 10 pick on that loser. Genius!
There is really nothing you can do  
AnnapolisMike : 9/19/2017 8:06 am : link
Other than take the guys you have and move them around. Pugh probably to T and go from there.

Realistically they need to find a way to scheme around it as well.
RE: Unfortunately, the most realistic option  
lecky : 9/19/2017 8:06 am : link
In comment 13605775 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
Is for the coaching staff to find a way to get these 5 guys to play better.

There is no one out there as a free agent that represents an upgrade, Jah Reid just signed with Houston, he may have been worth a look, but is off the table.

A trade is always possible, but not likely. The question would also come into play about who and what we would give up. We don't have the cap room for Thomas or Staley.

Move Pugh to LT, its not his best position and he may be average, but that better than Flowers. Move Flowers to G or RT, but then you have guys playing unfamiliar positions. Does that make anything better?


Coaching staff has to take some accountability at this point. Its on them to get these guys to play better.


Good point. First of all if you took this bunch and moved them to New England they would be fine. There is nothing scary about this offense. Even with Beckham they just do not score. There are no real playmakers. There is no ingenuity. It really seems they have 3 plays they practice. The opposing coach probably goes through our offensive tapes in record time. This is all about coaching and these guys just do not seem to have it.
.....  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 9/19/2017 8:09 am : link
They are in some trouble.

While not as bad as flowers, all of the O-linemen had key breakdowns at 1 point or another last night.

This line needs a complete overhaul this offseason. Outside of trying Flowers out at RG or RT because of his youth, I wouldn't keep anybody. Pugh is good, but he won't be worth the payday he'll get elsewhere
There are a number of things I would do/consider  
UberAlias : 9/19/2017 8:15 am : link
But it is clear the team has no intention on pursuing those options so I'm not going to focus on what I believe the team will do.

Let's consider the following:
- When questioned about options for addressing the Hart injury McAdoo stated he would work with the best 5. Consequently, unless last night's decisions were motivated by Fluker injury, we can assume sees the starting 5 plus Jones as their best 6. Barring FA or Trade, that's what we have to work with.

-McAdoo had a response in his presser that is certainly worth noting: "Yeah, we tried to give him (EF) some help as the game went on. Initially, we were focusing on the other side. We had our left guard playing right tackle. He ended up holding up and doing a nice job. Then we decided to get the ball out quick. When they’re playing cover two and you give help to both sides, you have three guys running routes and you have seven in coverage, that makes it a challenge"

For those hoping/expecting to see a move of Pugh to LT, I'm seeing this as an unlikely move. From the above they saw concerns with Pugh at RT coming in. Unless his performance has changed their thinking, I see a permanent move of him to LT as unlikely.

McAdoo commenting on Pugh holding up and doing a nice job, one has to consider what is the better combination Pugh-LG, Hart-RT/Jones-LG, Pugh-RT. I think there is a decent chance we'll see them sticking with the move of Pugh to RT, Jones in and Hart who played poorly a week ago out. The offense looked better in this configuration and I suspect it will be seen as a degree of progress

That leaves us with the obvious question of what to do about EF at LT? Unfortunately seeing as Wheeler is not perceived as among the top 6 OL options, as they preferred to shift Pugh, a move they obviously had concerns with initially, over inserting Wheeler with no impact elsewhere, they clearly do not see him as an option for them here.

So I think that leaves us with options to stick with EF, limit play calling to quick throws and give him help. What does this mean? More bland offense, few plays down field, try to win close games with your defense.

This is not where I would go, but I'm not the guy in charge, and sadly, this is where we are.
Bench Eli  
Loluchka80 : 9/19/2017 8:16 am : link
Let Geno give it ago. at least he is mobile and can a void a few sacks, maybe run for a couple first downs here and there.
Two games and two losses into the season we're on the brink of  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 9/19/2017 8:16 am : link
elimination. Crazy that they rolled the dice on Flowers again and had no Plan B ready. Flowers is just not an NFL player. Besides physical failures, he doesn't have the mental toughness to combat average nasty defensive ends.

This late all they can is replace their tackles with vets. Young stars not needed. Diehl, Seubert, O'Hara types with technique, mental toughness and confidence would be fine. Problem is that these players should be on the roster ready to sub in -- and they're not.
Pugh Jerry Richburg Fluker Flowers  
jeff57 : 9/19/2017 8:21 am : link
From left to right.
IMHO ...  
Beer Man : 9/19/2017 8:22 am : link
I would re-shuffle it to the following:

Pugh - Jones(or Hart) - Weston - Fluker - Flowers

Put the two fat boys to the right and try to run behind them all-day, dump Jerry to the bench, and start using the blocking TE for what he was signed to do.
Well there might not be much more  
Reb8thVA : 9/19/2017 8:22 am : link
we can do than rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. I think I might try rearranging the OL to look like this:

Pugh-Jones-Richburg-Jerry-Flowers (Might consider replacing Jerry later with Fluker)

I would also make a stronger commitment to the running game. Even if we are getting stonewalled, we have to take some heat off Eli and the OL. This offense is too one dimensional.

I would also consider activating Gallman, just to get a better sense of what he can do. They are going to have to draft a feature RB next year, but I'd wanna see what he can do just in case he surprises.
I think you have to try Pugh and Fluker as the tackles  
Chris684 : 9/19/2017 8:23 am : link
I suggested this last week and they went out and wasted another game, with an OL that can't function on an NFL level.

Cohesion, familiarity, stability, these are all luxuries we no longer can afford. If Flowers sits, he sits. Now is not the time to worry about his draft status. If there is no place for him to play right now, then you re-visit a position change next offseason and try to salvage his career.

There is no great option and the switch can probably bring different problems but you do it with the hope that veterans can at least plug the leaks and we can put forth a decent OL.

Pugh Jones Richburg Jerry Fluker
Pugh is not moving to LT  
UberAlias : 9/19/2017 8:25 am : link
I know everyone wants it to happen, but it's doubtful.
Here is what I would do...  
EricJ : 9/19/2017 8:36 am : link
Trade for Thomas or Staley
Move Flowers to RG

Bring in a Karate instructor and Sumo wrestler coach to spend an hour per day with these guys. If you think this is a joke, then go dig up interviews of Andre Tippett (for you youngsters he is hall of fame LB for the Pats) and you will hear him credit his Karate training for his success. Providing him with the leverage, footwork, and hand combat needed to be successful in football.

We watch the Giants and see our guys fail to get their feet under them, they are not leveraging their weight properly and losing badly when it comes to hand positioning.
There's no point trading for Staley or Thomas now  
jeff57 : 9/19/2017 8:38 am : link
They'll need to save what could be high picks.
RE: There's no point trading for Staley or Thomas now  
Dang Man : 9/19/2017 8:49 am : link
In comment 13605869 jeff57 said:
Quote:
They'll need to save what could be high picks.


Why? Give Eli what he needs to win. Don't worry about drafting another OL who's going to have their own growing pains. Trade the first for Thomas and ride him out until Eli retires. They also have 8-10mm in cap dove. Let's use it. There have to be more serviceable bodies available.

Even if they did save the high picks this team has shown they struggle with talent evaluation on the O line. Flowers, Richburg, Pugh. None excite me.
Meant cap space above  
Dang Man : 9/19/2017 8:50 am : link
.
First order of business is to either move Flowers out  
Stu11 : 9/19/2017 8:54 am : link
or give him help in more a of a max protect scheme. Frankly I think they need to move on from him but thats a decision for the end of the season. He is a turnstile right now. Ansah was getting a free run at Eli all night. Other than that they can try Fluker and/or Wheeler. They also have to get creative with the play calling. Unfortunately the mostly made their bed with this group and for the remainder of the season we are stuck with them. However coaches are paid to coach and they need to come up with some sort of plan that works. I agree that they looked better from the middle of the 3rd quarter on.
RE: Bench Eli  
njm : 9/19/2017 8:56 am : link
In comment 13605824 Loluchka80 said:
Quote:
Let Geno give it ago. at least he is mobile and can a void a few sacks, maybe run for a couple first downs here and there.


Just one problem with that

Just repeating Thomas or Staley's name over and over  
jcn56 : 9/19/2017 8:58 am : link
doesn't change the very basic fact that's a necessity for a trade in the NFL to happen - their teams have to want to trade them.

They're not. They weren't offering them up. There's basically no benefit to the Niners or Browns for trading them. They don't have younger players waiting in the wings to take over, nor do they need the cap space.
RE: pretty easy actually  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 9/19/2017 8:59 am : link
In comment 13605774 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
run double tight end more often and chip the DE with flowers.
put in fluker so that we can run the football-- our pass D already sucks with jerry, can we at least have a run threat?

dont call 5 step drop on 2nd and 20. dont call 5 step drop on 2nd and 10 after a run play.

the chipping with RB and TE (they can release after which occupies LBs... is the most obvious fking thing.

but when the coach is trying to help our RT instead of our LT who is blocking Ziggy... its just an embarrassment.


I was wondering why they weren't running more double TE with Adams.
RE: I think you have to try Pugh and Fluker as the tackles  
HomerJones45 : 9/19/2017 9:07 am : link
In comment 13605845 Chris684 said:
Quote:
I suggested this last week and they went out and wasted another game, with an OL that can't function on an NFL level.

Cohesion, familiarity, stability, these are all luxuries we no longer can afford. If Flowers sits, he sits. Now is not the time to worry about his draft status. If there is no place for him to play right now, then you re-visit a position change next offseason and try to salvage his career.

There is no great option and the switch can probably bring different problems but you do it with the hope that veterans can at least plug the leaks and we can put forth a decent OL.

Pugh Jones Richburg Jerry Fluker
Fluker sucks. Why do you think the Chargers let a #1 pick walk out the door. The Raiders signed Newhouse rather than Fluker who was in their division. If you enjoy Flowers, you'll love Fluker. You play Fluker if you hate Eli. He's one of Jerry's bargain basement finds.
RE: Just repeating Thomas or Staley's name over and over  
Dang Man : 9/19/2017 9:07 am : link
In comment 13605904 jcn56 said:
[quote] doesn't change the very basic fact that's a necessity for a trade in the NFL to happen - their teams have to want to trade them.

They're not. They weren't offering them up. There's basically no benefit to the Niners or Browns for trading them. They don't have younger players waiting in the wings to take over, nor do they need the cap space. [/the

Reporters have reflected his availability for nearly the last two years. Because it hasn't happened doesn't necessarily mean he isn't available, it can also mean no one is willing to pony up a first rounder plus for him. The Giants can nail their next five OL picks, but at that point who are they protecting, Davis Webb? Half their D will have turned over by that point as well.
first order  
giantfan2000 : 9/19/2017 9:08 am : link
replace Perkins with Darkwa
he is running way better than Perkins now

Darkwa is more north south runner who can muscle for extra yards

They're going to have to do with the OL  
David B. : 9/19/2017 9:20 am : link
what they did the year before last with the defense.

Remember what a "bum" Spags was when the D couldn't stop anyone or hold a lead? Then they got him Vernon, Snacks, and Jenkins, and suddenly Spags is a genius again.

This isn't about the design of the offense, the play-calling or the HC being a bum.

THE OFFENSIVE LINE PLAYERS SUCK. Like the TE's sucked last year.

They have to rebuild most of it.

Flowers will eventually move to OG or ORT -- or he'll be off the team. Pugh is OK. Richburg is no stud. He MIGHT be adequate with quality starters around him, but he could be upgraded. Hart should be a guard -- which is what they said about him the day they drafted him. If Fluker can't beat out anyone in this OL room, he realllllllllllly sucks.

In the upcoming offseason, IF there are decent OLs available via FA, they should break the bank and do whatever they can to bring them in. And move up in the draft to take guys who can start and be effective EARLY in their careers. Not the 22 year-old "potential" guys who have to grow into it. At this point, a guy with a high floor is more important than a guy with a high ceiling.

As for this season, they're largely stuck. And they know it.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/19/2017 9:55 am : link
I think we are near almost desperation mode here.

A combo that has Pugh playing left tackle and Flowers playing right or left guard should have been tried during camp. Such a drastic switch now probably is too late. But I'd be tempted to try Pugh - Jones - Richburg - Flowers - Hart. (But it looks like Hart will be out for a while now too).
RE: ...  
Racer : 9/19/2017 10:06 am : link
In comment 13606097 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I think we are near almost desperation mode here.


Ed McCaffery was referenced in another post; his comments on o-line shuffling and doing whatever you need to do to run the ball and to hell with looking gimmicky say just this.
I say we nuke the entire offensive line from orbit  
Bramton1 : 9/19/2017 10:07 am : link
It's the only way to be sure.
I would like to see if Flowers could  
Carl in CT : 9/19/2017 10:10 am : link
Be a guard before the end of the season (like the skins did with the Iowa tackle). He might end up being a good guard. Take the pressure off the kid. If that fails then he is sent packing.
there's much they can do  
djm : 9/19/2017 10:14 am : link
we're fucked unless this team plays better. That means everyone. You don't move guys around during the season and Jumbo Elliot isn't walking through the door.

We're fucked.
Pugh at LT, stop with the Flowers nonsense  
PatersonPlank : 9/19/2017 10:16 am : link
RT is either Hart, a FA, or hell I'd try Wheeler at this point (why not). Interior is Flowers-RB-Jerry.
RE: ...  
bigbluehoya : 9/19/2017 10:19 am : link
In comment 13606097 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I think we are near almost desperation mode here.

A combo that has Pugh playing left tackle and Flowers playing right or left guard should have been tried during camp. Such a drastic switch now probably is too late. But I'd be tempted to try Pugh - Jones - Richburg - Flowers - Hart. (But it looks like Hart will be out for a while now too).


It may be too late for Flowers at G, but having Pugh and LT and Flowers at RT sounds like something that they need to at least try. Having Eli be able
to see which way Flowers is getting beat on a given play could make a huge difference versus blind side.

RE: ...  
TyreeHelmet : 9/19/2017 10:19 am : link
In comment 13606097 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I think we are near almost desperation mode here.

A combo that has Pugh playing left tackle and Flowers playing right or left guard should have been tried during camp. Such a drastic switch now probably is too late. But I'd be tempted to try Pugh - Jones - Richburg - Flowers - Hart. (But it looks like Hart will be out for a while now too).


I don't think they have a choice at this point either. I would try this out but with Jerry instead of Hart. Can Jerry play right tackle? You can always go back to Flowers at LT if you really want. What's the downside?
the players are the players  
hitdog42 : 9/19/2017 10:20 am : link
proposing musical chairs wont fix this year.

SCHEME. SCHEME. SCHEME

double tight and chip with the fking TE and RB... its obvious- there is no other choice and it doesnt really hinder us.

then mix in 3WR... but still chip with the back---

nothing will fix players being poor and playing with no confidence except putting them in situation to succeed... we have enough weapons to move the ball and score in double tight or chipping.

this whole thing is so obvious it drives me fking nuts.
At this point,  
AnishPatel : 9/19/2017 10:21 am : link
we can do anything. You can try trading but realistically, Reese wanted to ride with this group, and so now we are seeing what happens when we relying on them.

It's like kitchen staff looking at the menu and seeing chicken marsala, but the guy who bought the groceries didn't buy chicken. So now the cook has to make chicken marsala with Tofu! I like our HC and support him still but he is asked to make this offense productive with garbage on the OL.
Flip Pugh and Flowers.  
Section331 : 9/19/2017 10:24 am : link
I know it's pretty drastic to make such a switch in-season, especially given that Flowers hasn't practiced at the LG spot, but he is likely destined to play inside eventually. Might as well make it now. Keeping him on the left side would at least ease the transition somewhat. Pugh has played LT before, I'm sure he could pick it back up pretty quickly.

I doubt it will happen, and I'm not sure it should, but that is one of the few position changes that makes sense.
I realize Flowers was up against  
Beezer : 9/19/2017 10:36 am : link
a monster last night, but he appears to have regressed ... which is amazing considering all the encouraging things during the off-season. He just looks worse.
Flowers  
Bluesbreaker : 9/19/2017 10:36 am : link
got beat like a drum by OV anyone who thought this O-line
was competent enough is delusional the time to fix it has
come and gone , I doubt anyone is gonna give up an all pro
LT at this stage of the game maybe SF but it will be a lopsided deal because we were poised for a run the draft
is a head scratcher to me but it's come and gone .
You think Geno is gonna save the day Ok good luck with that .
Unfortunately, no options will make this line  
ny_thick_n_thin : 9/19/2017 10:47 am : link
However, it is so bad now, you may as well tinker with the configuration and move things around. And hopefully, you'll find enough success to cobble a 9-7 record and squeak into the playoffs.

But this season has been blown up because JR refused to address the line.
Put Pugh at LT. He's no savior...  
ny_thick_n_thin : 9/19/2017 10:50 am : link
But blindside pressures would be reduced 50% instantly.

Jones is OK-ish at guard. Hart is mediocre to OK at RT, but at least Eli can see and react.
Reshuffling will come with taking lumps  
widmerseyebrow : 9/19/2017 11:05 am : link
But we probably need to implement change now before the season is lost. In other words, we're looking at disaster next week either way, but hopefully coaches and management can eat some crow and be honest about who should be starting where for the season. Inexcusable Tha t we didn't practice any other viable combos in the offseason.
'The problems begin and end with the offensive line...'  
Carson53 : 9/19/2017 11:52 am : link
That's a big problem, there are other issues with this
offense, so it doesn't end with the offensive line.
That is simply not true at all, the RB's are NOT as good as they thought, Marshall looks like a declining player,
the QB is also in decline. How the hell does a QB,
now in his 14th year STILL get delay of game
penalties down near the goal line! He deservedly was called out by Mac. Speaking of Mac, he better find an OC not named
Sullivan next season, and replace Solari as well, that is not helping one iota obviously.
As far as the O Line for this season, meh, it's like
re-arranging the deck on the Titanic.
Try to stay on board folks.
RE: ...  
EricJ : 9/19/2017 12:32 pm : link
In comment 13606097 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I think we are near almost desperation mode here.



I thought we reached that point at the end of last season. Then, someone in the front office did a good job of selling the same flaming bag full of shit story to a group of hopeful fans who wanted to believe.
Oh- the line...  
cznmike : 9/19/2017 12:46 pm : link
With a defense as good as the Giants have, how is it possible that no one in the organization realized just how bad it was until the first game of the season?
It was apparent in preseason and the Giants were saying, "Hey, it's alright, it's just preseason."

The fix at this point is to look for unemployed tackles- let's all be realistic, they can't be any worse. Maybe firing Flowers 1st along with the O line coach would get some attention to the team as a whole. How many of us on here would be able to keep your job until next year if you preformed this poorly week after week?

I think some of the problems have to be in technique, but that can't be the only problem.

Without a fix in the next two weeks, we'll get our first taste of Geno under center, because as tough as Eli is, a few more hits like he took last night and he'll break his starting streak for sure.
I think those 1st 2 years under McAdoo as OC  
ny_thick_n_thin : 9/19/2017 12:51 pm : link
Fooled Jerry Reese. The lines and running game were bad those years, but the Giants put up alot of points.

But as DC's began to figure things out, and as the line regressed, JR kept thinking tht line was serviceable and could therefore focus on D and skill position players.

But this is football. You start with QB, your OL, your Defensive front 7, then fill in those explosive skill positions.
RE: RE: Bench Eli  
Loluchka80 : 9/19/2017 1:15 pm : link
don't let him throw it more than 15-18 times per game. the defense is good enough

In comment 13605902 njm said:
Quote:
In comment 13605824 Loluchka80 said:


Quote:


Let Geno give it ago. at least he is mobile and can a void a few sacks, maybe run for a couple first downs here and there.



Just one problem with that

RE: Bench Eli  
Jersey55 : 9/20/2017 11:29 am : link
In comment 13605824 Loluchka80 said:
Quote:
Let Geno give it ago. at least he is mobile and can a void a few sacks, maybe run for a couple first downs here and there.
that would be a ballsy move that I would really like to see but unfortunately it would require more balls than I think exists in Giants management....
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