Now obviously there were character questions with the player (even as the draft was happening), but holy schnikies it would be good to have Tunsil right now, considering he could have played LT, RT or RG.
about the Lions. You can't just replace players, you've got to replace with better players. Tunsil hasn't proven he's a better player than anyone we have yet.
You post should have read Whitworth over Brandon Marshall.
about the Lions. You can't just replace players, you've got to replace with better players. Tunsil hasn't proven he's a better player than anyone we have yet.
You post should have read Whitworth over Brandon Marshall.
He was better at guard last year than John Jerry.
I think there is a tremendous stubbornness or rigidity Â
in the Giants coaching staff and front office. Surely, they are not so stupid as to see what Flowers can and cannot do. I've heard so many renowned people say Flowers is not a LT...he should be a RT or RG...Gruden went on about it last night and so has Pat Kirwan...but I think the Giants and Reese are refusing to admit they made a mistake.
I think that's a real problem and I see this OL in the same situation our DL was in 2015. The result was we had to spend $200M to fix that problem. I don't think we have that kind of money now and, even if we do, nobody is letting go of a half decent OL so you have to do it through the draft and Reese has been awful at that.
This is a systemic issue...I've said this before...this is a Giants' organizational failure of mammoth proportions.
We had to get a #2 WR. It's Whitworth over Ellison. If there was a place we could count on who we had it's TE. Adams was a better bet to improve and be a good player than the players on the OL.
Like La'el Collins before him, fans tend to longingly overrate OL prospects.
This is why it's venting only. There are plenty of sound reasons for drafting Apple. But considering the state of the line, it's OK to shake your head.
Like La'el Collins before him, fans tend to longingly overrate OL prospects.
Are you serious? Tunsil was a damn good Guard last year.. and showed such great promise that they got rid of their LT and moved him there.. .La'el collins looked pretty good against JPP.. This isn't like Fluker who everyone but Giants knew was a failure..
not just us, off Tunsil. The Ravens needed an LT just as bad, and they passed as well. Not sure whether it was performance related or if it had something to do with off the field stuff, but I highly doubt the gas mask picture was the only reason he dropped like a brick.
but he's been damned good with an occasional typical blip.
I agree. In a vacuum he was a good pick. But to me drafting a third CB instead of an OL makes it a more interesting discussion. I'm not siding one way or another, but I think it's a valid argument.
RE: RE: I shouldn't be surprised some are sleeping on Apple Â
but he's been damned good with an occasional typical blip.
I agree. In a vacuum he was a good pick. But to me drafting a third CB instead of an OL makes it a more interesting discussion. I'm not siding one way or another, but I think it's a valid argument.
Drafting for need is how football teams tend to stay bad. They should have signed a tackle to soundly fix the problem, but it's one of many blind spots for this regime.
as everyone else. He's been more hot than cold, as JonC has said. Eli Apple will push DRC off the roster, allowing for that money to be used on an OL. Don't get to down on the occasional blip. He's a good player.
RE: RE: RE: I shouldn't be surprised some are sleeping on Apple Â
but he's been damned good with an occasional typical blip.
I agree. In a vacuum he was a good pick. But to me drafting a third CB instead of an OL makes it a more interesting discussion. I'm not siding one way or another, but I think it's a valid argument.
Drafting for need is how football teams tend to stay bad. They should have signed a tackle to soundly fix the problem, but it's one of many blind spots for this regime.
You can argue that Tunsil or Decker would've been no bigger reaches than Apple.
What I can't stand is wasting a second or third round pick on a carousel of DTs while the OL get shortchanged.
For the life of me I fail to understand if we are willing to invest tens of millions of dollars in the DL based on the premise you need to get to the QB to win, we don't apply the same philosophy toward protecting the QB. Wouldn't it be logical then that protecting the QB is just as important ar rushing the QB?
RE: RE: RE: RE: I shouldn't be surprised some are sleeping on Apple Â
but he's been damned good with an occasional typical blip.
I agree. In a vacuum he was a good pick. But to me drafting a third CB instead of an OL makes it a more interesting discussion. I'm not siding one way or another, but I think it's a valid argument.
Drafting for need is how football teams tend to stay bad. They should have signed a tackle to soundly fix the problem, but it's one of many blind spots for this regime.
You can argue that Tunsil or Decker would've been no bigger reaches than Apple.
My pick at the time was Decker, Tunsil was off my board.
I've no problem picking up a talented CB if you've got a great feeling about him, and nothing approaching it for an OL.
I thought Apple played well last night & Jenkins was out Â
for us in the future the kid is young and has a ton of upside.
The blatant disregard for the o-line in the draft period and even by the coaching staff postgame is what drives me bat shit crazy right now.
It’s like there is an executive directive to not comment on the o-line regardless of play and put it on Eli because he has broad shoulders.
Tunsil struggled badly in pass pro vs the Chargers Â
Whitworth was the guy. They should have done whatever it took to sign him. Then draft best available O lineman in the first round or atleast 2nd round. I would have also signed another couple of veterans to challenge this unit.
To me Flowers profiles much more as a guard then left tackle. He simply cannot play the position. They are setting him for failure by continuing to trot him out at LT.
Offer a 2nd and 4th for Joe Thomas or Joe Staley. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
and that he wasn't the lockdown CB you would get that high in the first round of the draft. A few seem to say he will develop and become that guy, but then why was he picked in the first round when, at the time, we seemed set at CB?
I dont want to harp on Apple though. Its more of our front offices lack of a plan in the draft to get a solid Tackle or someone they could develop into a solid tackle.
I will readily admit that the kid is young and he can be developed. No doubt but there are things that also cannot be taught.
However, I did have a problem with the pick. I had no idea on draft day because I am not big into scouting college players. After we selected him, I went and looked at A LOT of video and watched him. He does not have natural CB instincts. Everything from his footwork, pre snap positioning, his first move post snap, his hands, his instincts, and ball awareness. Not saying he is horrible at these things (other than how he uses his hands) but not what you would expect for a guy drafted in the top third of the 1st round.
When you play CB, you really need to have many of the traits that I referenced above to be successful. The thing about that position is that you cannot afford to fail badly on a single play. When you do, the other team scores.
** When I watched Collins before he came to camp I could see the tools for success in him. Although some of those are a bit different than what you would expect from a CB... I knew that it was a matter of time for him. Basically once he was able to stop thinking about what his assignment was and just "go", then all of his instincts and ability would reveal themselves. So, his rookie season I saw him just thinking/processing and there was a delay. If you noticed, his tackling was still solid that year too. I do not see the same promise right now in Eli Apple. I hope I am wrong.
I will readily admit that the kid is young and he can be developed. No doubt but there are things that also cannot be taught.
However, I did have a problem with the pick. I had no idea on draft day because I am not big into scouting college players. After we selected him, I went and looked at A LOT of video and watched him. He does not have natural CB instincts. Everything from his footwork, pre snap positioning, his first move post snap, his hands, his instincts, and ball awareness. Not saying he is horrible at these things (other than how he uses his hands) but not what you would expect for a guy drafted in the top third of the 1st round.
When you play CB, you really need to have many of the traits that I referenced above to be successful. The thing about that position is that you cannot afford to fail badly on a single play. When you do, the other team scores.
** When I watched Collins before he came to camp I could see the tools for success in him. Although some of those are a bit different than what you would expect from a CB... I knew that it was a matter of time for him. Basically once he was able to stop thinking about what his assignment was and just "go", then all of his instincts and ability would reveal themselves. So, his rookie season I saw him just thinking/processing and there was a delay. If you noticed, his tackling was still solid that year too. I do not see the same promise right now in Eli Apple. I hope I am wrong.
It appears to me a big chunk of the defense is experiencing similar issues, there's a lot of lack of attention to detail and it feels like their attention span is showing up in spurts. Could be a feeling of letdown towards the offense, for example.
4th CB? Apple took over as starter during his rookie camp and pushed DRC inside. That and DRC is probably gone next year, Apple pick made plenty of sense for a team that places premium on skill.
and some of the issues between him and Spags in 2015 were taking himself out after a rough play, or a mental mistake. To his credit, DRC embraced the changes in 2016 and repaired his contributions to the team.
I really don't have an issue with any of their recent draft decisions. Our 2016 draft looks great and our first two picks this year have flashed. Whitworth was signed for a pricey but manageable contract, we weren't in a position to balk at that. He would have a huge impact on this line right now. Smaller mistakes lie in the bargain veterans we brought in, Jerry is playing his worst football since getting here and Fluker hasn't even been able to compete for a spot. Curious to see how Warmack is looking for Philly or Menelik Watson is for Denver. These misfires plus the Flowers/Hart gambles both blowing up in our face leave us with what we have.
You post should have read Whitworth over Brandon Marshall.
You post should have read Whitworth over Brandon Marshall.
He was better at guard last year than John Jerry.
I think that's a real problem and I see this OL in the same situation our DL was in 2015. The result was we had to spend $200M to fix that problem. I don't think we have that kind of money now and, even if we do, nobody is letting go of a half decent OL so you have to do it through the draft and Reese has been awful at that.
This is a systemic issue...I've said this before...this is a Giants' organizational failure of mammoth proportions.
This is why it's venting only. There are plenty of sound reasons for drafting Apple. But considering the state of the line, it's OK to shake your head.
Are you serious? Tunsil was a damn good Guard last year.. and showed such great promise that they got rid of their LT and moved him there.. .La'el collins looked pretty good against JPP.. This isn't like Fluker who everyone but Giants knew was a failure..
Time will tell, though.
Keep it in perspective.
Problem solved.
I agree. In a vacuum he was a good pick. But to me drafting a third CB instead of an OL makes it a more interesting discussion. I'm not siding one way or another, but I think it's a valid argument.
Quote:
but he's been damned good with an occasional typical blip.
I agree. In a vacuum he was a good pick. But to me drafting a third CB instead of an OL makes it a more interesting discussion. I'm not siding one way or another, but I think it's a valid argument.
Drafting for need is how football teams tend to stay bad. They should have signed a tackle to soundly fix the problem, but it's one of many blind spots for this regime.
Quote:
In comment 13605932 JonC said:
Quote:
but he's been damned good with an occasional typical blip.
I agree. In a vacuum he was a good pick. But to me drafting a third CB instead of an OL makes it a more interesting discussion. I'm not siding one way or another, but I think it's a valid argument.
Drafting for need is how football teams tend to stay bad. They should have signed a tackle to soundly fix the problem, but it's one of many blind spots for this regime.
You can argue that Tunsil or Decker would've been no bigger reaches than Apple.
What I can't stand is wasting a second or third round pick on a carousel of DTs while the OL get shortchanged.
For the life of me I fail to understand if we are willing to invest tens of millions of dollars in the DL based on the premise you need to get to the QB to win, we don't apply the same philosophy toward protecting the QB. Wouldn't it be logical then that protecting the QB is just as important ar rushing the QB?
Quote:
In comment 13605945 Dang Man said:
Quote:
In comment 13605932 JonC said:
Quote:
but he's been damned good with an occasional typical blip.
I agree. In a vacuum he was a good pick. But to me drafting a third CB instead of an OL makes it a more interesting discussion. I'm not siding one way or another, but I think it's a valid argument.
Drafting for need is how football teams tend to stay bad. They should have signed a tackle to soundly fix the problem, but it's one of many blind spots for this regime.
You can argue that Tunsil or Decker would've been no bigger reaches than Apple.
My pick at the time was Decker, Tunsil was off my board.
I've no problem picking up a talented CB if you've got a great feeling about him, and nothing approaching it for an OL.
I guess no good deed goes unpunished.
The blatant disregard for the o-line in the draft period and even by the coaching staff postgame is what drives me bat shit crazy right now.
It’s like there is an executive directive to not comment on the o-line regardless of play and put it on Eli because he has broad shoulders.
In his first game at LT, yes. Pugh moved over to RT and didn't fare well either. Needs time to adjust.
To me Flowers profiles much more as a guard then left tackle. He simply cannot play the position. They are setting him for failure by continuing to trot him out at LT.
Offer a 2nd and 4th for Joe Thomas or Joe Staley. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Keep it in perspective.
Agreed. I will never criticize Reese for not drafting Tunsil. He also wanted Conklin.
I dont want to harp on Apple though. Its more of our front offices lack of a plan in the draft to get a solid Tackle or someone they could develop into a solid tackle.
The defensive backfield is my domain.
I will readily admit that the kid is young and he can be developed. No doubt but there are things that also cannot be taught.
However, I did have a problem with the pick. I had no idea on draft day because I am not big into scouting college players. After we selected him, I went and looked at A LOT of video and watched him. He does not have natural CB instincts. Everything from his footwork, pre snap positioning, his first move post snap, his hands, his instincts, and ball awareness. Not saying he is horrible at these things (other than how he uses his hands) but not what you would expect for a guy drafted in the top third of the 1st round.
When you play CB, you really need to have many of the traits that I referenced above to be successful. The thing about that position is that you cannot afford to fail badly on a single play. When you do, the other team scores.
** When I watched Collins before he came to camp I could see the tools for success in him. Although some of those are a bit different than what you would expect from a CB... I knew that it was a matter of time for him. Basically once he was able to stop thinking about what his assignment was and just "go", then all of his instincts and ability would reveal themselves. So, his rookie season I saw him just thinking/processing and there was a delay. If you noticed, his tackling was still solid that year too. I do not see the same promise right now in Eli Apple. I hope I am wrong.
BBI and Reach
Quote:
I've no issue with the pick whatsoever.
The defensive backfield is my domain.
I will readily admit that the kid is young and he can be developed. No doubt but there are things that also cannot be taught.
However, I did have a problem with the pick. I had no idea on draft day because I am not big into scouting college players. After we selected him, I went and looked at A LOT of video and watched him. He does not have natural CB instincts. Everything from his footwork, pre snap positioning, his first move post snap, his hands, his instincts, and ball awareness. Not saying he is horrible at these things (other than how he uses his hands) but not what you would expect for a guy drafted in the top third of the 1st round.
When you play CB, you really need to have many of the traits that I referenced above to be successful. The thing about that position is that you cannot afford to fail badly on a single play. When you do, the other team scores.
** When I watched Collins before he came to camp I could see the tools for success in him. Although some of those are a bit different than what you would expect from a CB... I knew that it was a matter of time for him. Basically once he was able to stop thinking about what his assignment was and just "go", then all of his instincts and ability would reveal themselves. So, his rookie season I saw him just thinking/processing and there was a delay. If you noticed, his tackling was still solid that year too. I do not see the same promise right now in Eli Apple. I hope I am wrong.
It appears to me a big chunk of the defense is experiencing similar issues, there's a lot of lack of attention to detail and it feels like their attention span is showing up in spurts. Could be a feeling of letdown towards the offense, for example.
4th CB? Apple took over as starter during his rookie camp and pushed DRC inside. That and DRC is probably gone next year, Apple pick made plenty of sense for a team that places premium on skill.