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My thoughts about the OL and Eli.

AcidTest : 9/19/2017 10:00 am
Reese gambled that the same players from last year’s OL would somehow make a tremendous improvement this year. I’m not sure why, when the problems with the OL were well known. We had problems running the ball, and didn’t score 20 points in the last six games.

The better decision may have been to sign Whitworth, and pass on Engram for Robinson or Lamp. We already had Ellison, Adams, and LaCosse, and had just signed Marshall. The OL is then Whitworth, Pugh, Richburg, Flowers, Hart. Jones, Fluker, and Wheeler are the backups, with Bisnowaty on the PS.

Flowers at guard would minimize his slow feet, and better use his mauling strength. Right now, he looks like a marginally better version of James Brewer. He also still has technique issues, gets bull rushed in pass protection, and loses too many leverage battles. I don’t fault Reese for not drafting Tunsil, and he did want Conklin. Apple was a fallback choice, but despite some predictable struggles, has promise. I do fault Reese for not finding at least one serviceable day three OL. See Brewer, Petrus, Mosley, McCants, and Herman.

Reese apparently thought that adding a seam stretching TE like Engram was the best way to bust all those cover 2 shells we faced last year. But it takes time to get down the seam. Time which Eli does not have because the pocket collapses almost immediately after the snap. The best way to beat a cover 2 shell is to run the ball, and force the defense to bring one or two more players into the box.

Reese also didn’t draft an OL on day two. Tomlinson is quite promising, and we needed someone like that to help Harrison handle the Dallas OL. But Reese might have been able to get a good run stuffer later in the draft, especially if he took the deal from the 49ers to trade down.

Webb has to succeed Eli to justify the pick. I thought it was good value in the third, but it’s not unreasonable to say that the pick should have been an OL. Reese’s record with QBs is also frankly quite poor. See Nassib, Bomar, Woodson, and Lorenzen.

Bisnowaty needs more time to develop. The irony is that Reese may have lucked into a good player with Wheeler. He seems to have the feet to play LT. He just needs to get stronger, and adjust to the speed of the NFL.

Eli’s lack of mobility makes it hard for him to succeed behind this OL. He can’t scramble away like Stafford, Rodgers, or Wilson. He’s a statute. His accuracy is often suspect even when he has time, but that might to some extent be caused by all the hits he’s taken, and the obvious lack of confidence he has in the OL. I agree with those who say he is morphing into David Carr in that regard. He also usually throws against six or seven defenders, and has no run game. I think the problem is 80% OL, and 20% Eli. I don’t think Eli will finish the season. The cumulative beatings will just be too much to endure. There will be more hits like the one he took on the pass to Shepard.

Perhaps last night will finally convince McAdoo to make some changes. Mine would be Pugh, Jones, Richburg, Fluker, Hart. But regardless, if we can’t run, we can’t win.

Right now, we look like a Ferrari with no gas. Nice to look at, but not going anywhere.
The o line stinks  
joeinpa : 9/19/2017 10:12 am : link
Of that there is no doubt.

But Engram was a good pick.

Flowers the number 9 pick, Pugh a 1 pick, Richburg a high 2 cnd pick.

Hard to reinvest in that area when you have spent so many assets to fix it. Easier to believe they will get better.

It s a mistake that could cost Reese his job
The OL stinks  
bluesince56 : 9/19/2017 10:14 am : link
Management knew it and decided to go playmakers instead of fixing last years problems. It's going to be a long year. History has shown us the owners will stay with this mess until there are empty seats at MetLife. Some teams want to win the Super Bowl. Others hope to win it. Who are we?
Richburg is fine  
PatersonPlank : 9/19/2017 10:18 am : link
Flowers is now officially a bust, ala Greg Robinson, Gallery, Fluker, and a slew of other 1st round OL players. He has to get out of LT, I'd try him at LG immediately. If that doesn't work its see you later. This is the NFL.
I think that's a fair post  
jcn56 : 9/19/2017 10:20 am : link
I don't agree with the breakdown of fault, though.

I think 40% of our problems are directly on the playcalling. The inability to get Flowers some help and come up with better routes than the ones that end up with everyone covered despite good protection are making the OL look much worse.

30% of it is OL - swap around the personnel to see if anything is better (might not be, but might as well try).

20% of it falls on Eli - that 'he's always been somewhat error prone' excuse can't work now - he doesn't have the luxury of it. When the protection is there, he has to make the other team pay, and he can't keep throwing bad INTs at the worst possible time. Don't hold the ball as long, get it out quickly and if nothing is there get rid of it.

10% down to the RBs. They're put in a tough spot, but we've seen other RBs make yardage out of tight spots, our guys seemingly can't do anything unless there's a gaping hole with blockers in front of it.
Let's examine the facts, okay...  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 9/19/2017 10:23 am : link
first, Reese ignored the defensive line or had poor drafts. It ended up costing $200M to fix the DL and the D overall. He ignored the OL until 2013, then drafted Pugh who has been okay but has been hurt often. Richburg, drafted the next year, has regressed. Two years ago I thought he was a top three centre in the league. Hard to say he is that now. Then we drafted Flowers who has been a bust since day one. the only positive I can say about him is he has played every game but he has not improved and I will maintain, to this day, that he is playing out of position.

I don't care who you are but you win in the NFL with three basic strengths...a good defensive line, a good offensive line and a good, not necessarily great, QB. Compare what the Giants did OL-wise to Detroit who went out and signed TJ Land and Ricky Wagner, traded for Robinson...don't forget they have Taylor Dekker coming back. What did we do...NOTHING! We didn't even get someone in town to challenge Flowers...as Parcells used to say: THIS IS COMPETITION, SON!

Right now, this team is on the verge...if nothing happens and we get the same result Sunday, I see a mutiny happening. I'd love to know what John Mara and Steve Tisch are thinking today. I know Mara has much more patience than I do because I would have gone up one side of Reese last night and down the other for doing fuck all to fix this.
Flowers "still has technique issues"?  
Section331 : 9/19/2017 10:30 am : link
That's putting it mildly! I agree that his eventual spot is inside, and I wonder when the NYG try to make that switch. My guess is after the season, but as I mentioned in the "What do we do with the OL" thread, I would consider flipping him and Pugh.

Pugh has played OLT before, and would probably pick it back up pretty quickly. Moving Flowers inside is admittedly a major transition, but keeping him on the left side would at least allow him to use many of the same footwork techniques.

Probably a crazy idea, but what else do you do? Bring in Wheeler?
Other than that, very good post, AT.  
Section331 : 9/19/2017 10:32 am : link
Although I would quibble with the comparison to a Ferrari with no gas, more like a Ferrari with no wheels!
TJ  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 9/19/2017 10:36 am : link
Lang
RE: TJ  
Section331 : 9/19/2017 10:37 am : link
In comment 13606257 That’s Gold, Jerry said:
Quote:
Lang


He's the guy I wanted too. Would have solved a lot of problems, primarily getting John Jerry's fat ass out of town.
Where Reese has failed with the OL  
DG : 9/19/2017 10:39 am : link
(beside Flowers, who could still be a salvageable player at RG), is in free agency. It's really inexcusable.

Baas (injuries), Schwartz (injuries and ineffectiveness), Jerry, etc..

Terrible track record in FA OL signings.

Section 331...  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 9/19/2017 10:39 am : link
they have to do something...the status quo is not acceptable. If Hart is hurt, I would immediately move Pugh to LT and Flowers to RT. You might want to leave the interior alone or move Fluker in for Jones. If Hart is alright, then I agree with you and switch him with Pugh. No one is coming through the door who will make an impact. The Giants have to do what Baltimore did in 2013 and move people around. As constructed, this OL cannot stand.

To me, Flowers is a dolt...his 3rd year and he still has technique issues. What the hell was he working on all offseason?
Eli... Please lead a receiver running accross the middle  
chitt17 : 9/19/2017 11:39 am : link
I get so upset whet I see the other teams receivers catching a pass in stride coming across the middle.
Eli throws right at them. By the time the ball is there, it is behind them, over their head, etc. They have to make circus catches. Forget about yards after the catch.
My issue with moving Flowers to RT  
Section331 : 9/19/2017 11:48 am : link
is that it would be too much to learn in season. Everything is the opposite of what he's been doing for the past 3 years. That's why, if anything, I would flip Pugh and Flowers. At least Flowers' footwork at LG would be similar.
Ive said almost exactly this many times  
ZGiants98 : 9/19/2017 2:58 pm : link
Whitworth and Lamp would have been the way to go. Doing nothing is mind boggling.
My line would have looked something like...  
ZGiants98 : 9/19/2017 3:00 pm : link
Whitworth-Flowers-Richburgh-Lamp-Pugh
I said some of the same things in regards to the O-line and the Draft  
Bluesbreaker : 9/19/2017 3:22 pm : link
In the post game thread and sure its hindsight but I would
take my chances with the trade down it would have allowed us
to take
#1 Cam Robinson
#2 Dion Dawkins
#3 Kareem Hunt or Donta Foreman
The DT's were deep in this draft and to me I see a guy in
Jerrel Adams that could be a decent two way TE with size you
can't teach . with Ellison who is a good blocker and is a better pass catcher than I realized third guy being LaCosse
who has teased us in the past but hindered by injuries .
Spend the rest of the picks on whomever you see fit .
Bobby Hart should be playing Guard not tackle then let
Flowers compete for the RT job .
Hunt is explosive much in the way we hoped David Wilson
would be , Foreman who has size power and speed would be
ideal to go along with Perkins . Don't need to tell you about Hunt . With big contracts looming with OBJ and
Collins we still have to decide upon Pugh and Richberg .

Hindsight is great but you didn't need binoculars to see that this offensive line needed a few new starters .
We may have the worst stable of RB's in the league as well
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