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Ereck Flowers will cost jobs and the project is over

banks58 : 9/19/2017 11:31 am
A swing and a miss for Reese with the 9th overall pick. Reese also needed to address the possibility that Flowers wouldn't improve and have a plan B based on last year. Little was done. How do you explain that? He's absolutely lost on OL development.

Mac. He had to give his assessment and evaluation of Flowers heading into the season from last year. Flowers is a turnstile and commits costly penalties. What did he see that gave him any comfort level going in?

Eli. What can he do? The defense rushes 4 and have 7 in coverage against 3 WR's. He's STILL hurried and is forced to throw a check down on 3rd and whatever. Progression of reads with no time to throw into that coverage is brutal. The defense isn't forced to adjust and we're sitting ducks on every level.

The rest of the O line is below average. Flowers tho, is a joke. I know there's blame to go around and injuries. However, Flowers is so bad that the rest of the offense suffers.

Back to my original point. It will cost jobs unless Reese or Mac can explain that decision going into the season.
McAdoo  
PaulN : 9/19/2017 11:35 am : link
Went along with it, he is guilty also, or we would have seen changes when Flowers almost got Eli killed, it is obvious that between Reese and McAdoo, Giants football will compete with the fucking Jets as the jokes of the NFL, congratulations John Mara, keep doing nothing.
Every single knowlegable football talking head  
Rory : 9/19/2017 11:35 am : link
graded Flowers as a future RG at best RT.

I truly believe and I'm saying this as one of his supporters is that Reese has been determined to turn Flowers into a LT.

If I ran things....  
HoustonGiant : 9/19/2017 11:36 am : link
and working with what we have.....

I'd have Pugh at LT, Jones at LG, Richburg at C, Fluker at RG, and Flowers at RT



But I'm not......

I also think Jones at center and Flowers at G with Wheeler at RT is worth a try also.
RE: Every single knowlegable football talking head  
Rory : 9/19/2017 11:38 am : link
In comment 13606459 Rory said:
Quote:
graded Flowers as a future RG at best RT.

I truly believe and I'm saying this as one of his supporters is that Reese has been determined to turn Flowers into a LT.


knowledgeable**
Last night was Flowers Winston Justice moment  
PatersonPlank : 9/19/2017 11:39 am : link
I'd give Flowers a shot at RT, but I'm not convinced he could even play that.
At this point, I'm more annoyed by the refusal to move him to the  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/19/2017 11:39 am : link
bench or another position.

Where's the accountability? And for people who're perfectly willing to criticize Eli and Odell in public, why the kid gloves?
Said this a couple days ago  
lugnut : 9/19/2017 11:45 am : link
We have no ability at all to scout or coach OL -- it's not that Reese and Co. have been inactive re getting players. Even w/ our "best" OLineman, Pugh -- he was a T in college and we drafted him 1st Rd, and pretty quickly he became a G -- you don't take G's in the 1st Rd. SOOO many whiffs in the lower rounds -- McCants, Hermann, Petrus, Mosley, Brewer...Oh, for the glory days of Guy Whimper.
agreed  
RAIN : 9/19/2017 11:47 am : link
I think its time to scrap this project, make him a guard and try to recoup some value.

I don't see him at RT being any better. His hand usage and balance would be an equally poor fit for the right side.

I see he and Bobby Hart as G's. Keep Wheeler progressing in the strength program, and get him ready.

Long term LT Pugh Richburgh Flowers Wheeler. Uggghhh crap. Still looks like crap.

Flowers  
AcidTest : 9/19/2017 11:50 am : link
looks extremely frustrated, which is certainly understandable. For that reason alone, I'd put him on the bench. He's a backup now in case someone gets injured. Keep him through camp next year to see if he can become a guard, because we really should part ways with Jerry.
Gotta love it....  
Doomster : 9/19/2017 11:51 am : link
And Wheeler is just going to get stronger next season, and be a starter...

How is that any different from Reese thinking Flowers can be a LT?
Flowers is the Ray Handley of Giants draft picks.  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/19/2017 11:51 am : link
.
Flowers can be a fine OG  
beatrixkiddo : 9/19/2017 11:51 am : link
they need those too on this team. He is a bust as a LT, but I think he could excel in a booth, its a shame this coaching staff and FO were so adamant about it and he likely hasn't seen a snap there yet, they need to shuffle this OL up, honestly I'd give Wheeler a shot at RT and put Pugh at LT, move Flowers to LG/RG.
RE: Gotta love it....  
PatersonPlank : 9/19/2017 11:52 am : link
In comment 13606507 Doomster said:
Quote:
And Wheeler is just going to get stronger next season, and be a starter...

How is that any different from Reese thinking Flowers can be a LT?


I agree with Wheelers potential. His issues are different than Flowers. He already has the technique and feet quickness, which Flowers never had but we thought he could develop. Wheeler just needs more strength and experience.
I have to say that I do not blame Flowers...  
EricJ : 9/19/2017 11:54 am : link
for being drafted so high and tagging him with these high expectations. The guy really is working hard and you can see that he is trying his best. We are trying to turn him into something that he isn't.

If he was steam rolling people in college and looked like a an all pro then fine. However, he did not do a bait and switch on us.

I have to blame the guy who was shopping for the groceries.
Flowers will cause Eli his consecutive games played streak  
moespree : 9/19/2017 11:55 am : link
Anyone who still questions the toughness of Eli having to play behind Flowers is a total moron. A guy like Big Ben would have been helicoptered off the field.
HoutonGiant  
Maineline : 9/19/2017 11:57 am : link
That's the way I would have run things also. At least maybe we could run behind the Big Blokes on the right side together.
RE: I have to say that I do not blame Flowers...  
DonQuixote : 9/19/2017 11:57 am : link
In comment 13606516 EricJ said:
Quote:
for being drafted so high and tagging him with these high expectations. The guy really is working hard and you can see that he is trying his best. We are trying to turn him into something that he isn't.

If he was steam rolling people in college and looked like a an all pro then fine. However, he did not do a bait and switch on us.

I have to blame the guy who was shopping for the groceries.


I agree with this. Don't use the fact that he is frustrated against him. Put the kid in the best possible situation for him to succeed.
As Shaun O'Hara said last season  
BigBlueinChicago : 9/19/2017 11:57 am : link
on the Giants MSG Postgame show

Quote:
“Ereck Flowers is what in the business you call a coach killer."
Anybody advocating moving him to RT if off base  
Kyle in NY : 9/19/2017 12:00 pm : link
Teams will just move their best pass rushers to that side to take advantage of him. It's not Eli's blind side, but so what? It's not like he's scrambling to elude the rush anyway.

He can't play tackle in the NFL, plain and simple. He doesn't have the athleticism, quickness, footwork, or balance to do it. They should at least try him at guard since he was a premium pick but he's a sunk cost at OT. Make a change now, admit the mistake, and maybe we can salvage something for this offense.
RE: Gotta love it....  
johnnyb : 9/19/2017 12:04 pm : link
In comment 13606507 Doomster said:
Quote:
And Wheeler is just going to get stronger next season, and be a starter...

How is that any different from Reese thinking Flowers can be a LT?


So Wheeler is the saving grace? He was an undrafted free agent. Does not speak much for his talent level.LTs rarely if ever come from the ashed of undrafted free agents.
RE: Anybody advocating moving him to RT if off base  
PatersonPlank : 9/19/2017 12:05 pm : link
In comment 13606541 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
Teams will just move their best pass rushers to that side to take advantage of him. It's not Eli's blind side, but so what? It's not like he's scrambling to elude the rush anyway.

He can't play tackle in the NFL, plain and simple. He doesn't have the athleticism, quickness, footwork, or balance to do it. They should at least try him at guard since he was a premium pick but he's a sunk cost at OT. Make a change now, admit the mistake, and maybe we can salvage something for this offense.


I agree with this. Its Guard or the bench.
It looks like Reese missed on a lot of early round picks  
SHO'NUFF : 9/19/2017 12:07 pm : link
at this point... Flowers, Pugh, Apple, Richburg...
RE: RE: Anybody advocating moving him to RT if off base  
Kyle in NY : 9/19/2017 12:08 pm : link
In comment 13606555 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 13606541 Kyle in NY said:


Quote:


Teams will just move their best pass rushers to that side to take advantage of him. It's not Eli's blind side, but so what? It's not like he's scrambling to elude the rush anyway.

He can't play tackle in the NFL, plain and simple. He doesn't have the athleticism, quickness, footwork, or balance to do it. They should at least try him at guard since he was a premium pick but he's a sunk cost at OT. Make a change now, admit the mistake, and maybe we can salvage something for this offense.



I agree with this. Its Guard or the bench.


Yep, but that's tough to do in-season. Should have been done in the offseason. This is just a complete failure from top to bottom.
RE: RE: I have to say that I do not blame Flowers...  
AcidTest : 9/19/2017 12:13 pm : link
In comment 13606529 DonQuixote said:
Quote:
In comment 13606516 EricJ said:


Quote:


for being drafted so high and tagging him with these high expectations. The guy really is working hard and you can see that he is trying his best. We are trying to turn him into something that he isn't.

If he was steam rolling people in college and looked like a an all pro then fine. However, he did not do a bait and switch on us.

I have to blame the guy who was shopping for the groceries.



I agree with this. Don't use the fact that he is frustrated against him. Put the kid in the best possible situation for him to succeed.


Also agree. I just think the guard experiment will have to wait until next year, although perhaps we could try him at LG after a few weeks of practice.
I'm not giving up on EF yet  
JonC : 9/19/2017 12:17 pm : link
but fans who screamed for picking an OT or bust at #9 in that draft had better remember they got what they wished for, and forcing a pick for need is not always a wise strategy.
RE: I'm not giving up on EF yet  
Kyle in NY : 9/19/2017 12:20 pm : link
In comment 13606608 JonC said:
Quote:
but fans who screamed for picking an OT or bust at #9 in that draft had better remember they got what they wished for, and forcing a pick for need is not always a wise strategy.


And the same goes for this past draft. Many saying Engram was a vanity pick but the first round OL group just wasn't strong in last year's draft.

I'm surprised to see you still holding out hope for Flowers though. Not giving up on him at OT? I just don't see it. Doesn't have the skill set for it. What are you seeing?
RE: RE: I'm not giving up on EF yet  
JonC : 9/19/2017 12:23 pm : link
In comment 13606619 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 13606608 JonC said:


Quote:


but fans who screamed for picking an OT or bust at #9 in that draft had better remember they got what they wished for, and forcing a pick for need is not always a wise strategy.



And the same goes for this past draft. Many saying Engram was a vanity pick but the first round OL group just wasn't strong in last year's draft.

I'm surprised to see you still holding out hope for Flowers though. Not giving up on him at OT? I just don't see it. Doesn't have the skill set for it. What are you seeing?


Still think he can play RT, but reality is we don't know what he's capable of until they get him some help to keep his learning curve and expectations from crushing his confidence permanently.
RE: RE: I'm not giving up on EF yet  
Mighty : 9/19/2017 12:33 pm : link
In comment 13606619 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 13606608 JonC said:


Quote:


but fans who screamed for picking an OT or bust at #9 in that draft had better remember they got what they wished for, and forcing a pick for need is not always a wise strategy.



And the same goes for this past draft. Many saying Engram was a vanity pick but the first round OL group just wasn't strong in last year's draft.

I'm surprised to see you still holding out hope for Flowers though. Not giving up on him at OT? I just don't see it. Doesn't have the skill set for it. What are you seeing?


i disagree. Forest Lamp would have been an excellent pick at that spot in last years draft. I love the potential of Engram and think he will be a star but i think Lamp will also be a star and what we needed
The kid is definitely under the mincroscope  
Kyle in NY : 9/19/2017 12:35 pm : link
Probably more so than other players besides Eli and Odell. And I do feel for him because he does seem to care and try hard

But year 3 and there is little noticeable improvement. If he needs help at this point, doesn't that exemplify the issue? That he just cannot play Tackle at this level?

McAdoo made the point that when teams are dropping 7 into coverage the way they are against us, you need your tackles to be able to win one on one battles. If they need help then you just don't have enough guys running routes to consistently get open.
Lamp, Boles (starting in Den), Ram, and Cam are all doing  
PatersonPlank : 9/19/2017 12:37 pm : link
well and playing better than Flowers already. I could've been happy with any of them at 22. EE is excellent, but skill players without an OL is a waste.
We know exactly what he's capable of  
Giants in 07 : 9/19/2017 12:38 pm : link
It's been 3 years.
It's going to take  
Ceez2.0 : 9/19/2017 12:39 pm : link
an injury to Eli (Knock on wood) for EF to be moved or any changes to the OL. How Eli didn't get hurt on that play where he flung it to Sheppard. He was plastered.
agree to disagree  
JonC : 9/19/2017 12:41 pm : link
The kid's confidence is visibly rocked at times, and his play follows suit. Get him some help and take some sting out of the learning curve, first and foremost. It doesn't kill an offense to chip to his side, especially given how short many of the routes are in this system.
We wasted the last 3 years of Eli's few last years  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/19/2017 12:42 pm : link
of his prime on this guy, and he still needs help in year 3? Time to move on.
Not for nothing  
liteamorn : 9/19/2017 12:45 pm : link
We spent a lot of top picks on this line, at some point do we start to look at Solari? They NEVER pick up stunts and their footwork is terrible at times, coaching?
we're two games into his third season  
JonC : 9/19/2017 12:48 pm : link
with no legit replacement in hand (no, Pugh is not an answer), not seeing where they go to at the moment.
Total silence from Mara  
TMS : 9/19/2017 1:07 pm : link
on these issues and why he caved on keeping Reese and Ross on the payroll these past four years. Accoursi's poison pill for hiring Coughlin has done its job.
"...the project is over"  
old man : 9/19/2017 1:07 pm : link
But not in Reese's and/or Mc's mind; where it counts.
I like the kid, and think he'd be best at RG and play to his strength...pushing forward.
Flowers is notatackle for the same reasons Fluker is not a tackle  
Ivan15 : 9/19/2017 1:29 pm : link
The Chargers just figured it out sooner and took another season to figure out Fluker isn't a guard either.
Francesa just echoed Gruden  
map7711 : 9/19/2017 1:30 pm : link
The Giants were the only team in the league that thought that flowers was a left tackle.
RE: Not for nothing  
Devon : 9/19/2017 1:35 pm : link
In comment 13606710 liteamorn said:
Quote:
We spent a lot of top picks on this line, at some point do we start to look at Solari? They NEVER pick up stunts and their footwork is terrible at times, coaching?


Various players were screwing up at a similar rate under Flaherty too.

I don't think Solari is great, but at some point you just have to call terrible players terrible and recognize the team has problems evaluating OL talent.
RE: Lamp, Boles (starting in Den), Ram, and Cam are all doing  
jgambrosio : 9/19/2017 3:17 pm : link
In comment 13606679 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
well and playing better than Flowers already. I could've been happy with any of them at 22. EE is excellent, but skill players without an OL is a waste.


Huh? Lamp is out for the season and from what I saw in the saints game last week, ramcyzk looked awful. Bolles just got hurt this week too.
jgambrosio,  
RollBlue : 9/19/2017 4:31 pm : link
funny how some people trash the front office and coaching and have no clue as to what's going on. I know Lamp is out, haven't seen the others play.

In terms of Bolles, we didn't even pass on him, he was taken prior to our pick.

I seem to recall TC singing EFs praises when he was drafted - pretty sure he had input on whether to take him or not.

Having said that, my opinion is that they should move him to RG. While I agree that Pugh is not the long term answer at LT, I think he is currently the best LT on the roster. For this week I would practice with Pugh at LT, Jones at LG, Richburg at C, Jerry at RG, Hart/Wheeler at RT. I would start giving Flowers reps at RG.

Normally I would let the status quo play out and expect improvement, but after last night, I think changes are needed.
If Pugh is a G  
aquidneck : 9/19/2017 4:58 pm : link
and Flowers a technique-less mauler, wouldn't you expect to try and employ a power running game to the left?

That might help keep DEs honest, but I don't think Pugh and Flowers have what it takes to establish a power running game either.
This organization  
TMS : 9/25/2017 12:11 pm : link
will not admit a mistake because they know they have jobs they are not qualified for and should be removed from. Family members and over rated super scouts who will hang on to the end. Why not good $$$. MO
RE: I'm not giving up on EF yet  
micky : 9/25/2017 12:29 pm : link
In comment 13606608 JonC said:
Quote:
but fans who screamed for picking an OT or bust at #9 in that draft had better remember they got what they wished for, and forcing a pick for need is not always a wise strategy.


yes maybe..but also have be sure that pick is as close to being a blue chip that fits your system and utilized the right way...every other gm didn't think of ef as a LT to begin with ..giants did..lies on the decision makers here.

how many wrs can you have on a team if going bpa?
RE: Every single knowlegable football talking head  
Matt M. : 9/25/2017 12:33 pm : link
In comment 13606459 Rory said:
Quote:
graded Flowers as a future RG at best RT.

I truly believe and I'm saying this as one of his supporters is that Reese has been determined to turn Flowers into a LT.
I said over and over when they moved him to LT that he was drafted specifically to play RT and so many here told me I was wrong. Every single scouting report, draft review, initial interview from giants, etc. indicated RT, but still posters here insisted he was the LT of the future just accelerated by a year or two. How does that look now?
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