This is who was available, years signed for, total and yearly salaries. Who do you sign and who do you not sign that Reese did to make room for their salary. I like Whitworth but it probably costs Ellison and Marshall.
2016
Kelechi Osemele -5- $58,500,000/ $11,700,000
Russell Okung -5- $53,000,000/ $10,600,000
Kelvin Beachum -5- $45,000,000/ $9,000,000
Alex Mack -5- $45,000,000/ $9,000,000
Brandon Brooks -5- $40,000,000/ $8,000,000
Mitch Schwartz -5- $33,000,000/ $6,600,000
J.R. Sweezy -5- $32,500,000/ $6,500,000
Jeff Allen -4- $28,000,000/ $7,000,000
Alex Boone -4- $26,800,000/ $6,700,000
Josh Sitton -3- $21,000,000/ $7,000,000
Bobby Massie -3- $1-8,000,000/ $6,000,000
Ben Jones - 4- $17,-500,000/ $4,375,000
Dona Stephenson -3- $14,00-0,000/ $4,666,667
Donald Penn -2- $11,900,-000/ $5,950,000
2017
Kevin Zeitler -5- $60,000,000/ $12,000,000
Riley Reiff -5- $58,750,000/ $11,750,000
Matt Kalil -5- $55,500,000/ $11,100,000
Russell Okung -4- $53,000,000/ $13,250,000
Ricky Wagner -5- $47,500,000/ $9,500,000
Ron Leary -4- $36,000,000/ $9,000,000
Larry Warford -4- $34,000,000/ $8,500,000
A. Whitworth -3- $33,750,000/ $11,250,000
Mike Remmers -5- $30,000,000/ $6,000,000
T.J. Lang -3- $28,500,000/ $9,500,000
Kelvin Beachum -3- $24,000,000/ $8,000,000
Menelik Watson -3- $18,375,000/ $6,125,000
J.C. Tretter -3- $16,750,000/ $5,583,333
Austin Howard -3- $15,025,000/ $5,008,333
Ben Ijalana -2- $10,250,000/ $5,125,000
Stef Wisniewski -3- $8,025,000/ $2,675,000
Luke Joeckel -1- $8,000,000/ $8,000,000
That was before the '16 season. Before this season, Reese made it clear that Flowers might move.
also its JR job to know and estimate what the market will be.. If we need the OL fixed.. thats JRs problem... He should know that No one has ever won with a horrendous OL.. No one ever.. You can win with Dilfer, bad running game bad secondary but not with a bad OL.. It just doesn't happen..
Related, and more importantly, he blew basically every OL draft pick he has EVER made, Pugh (and, arguably -- I don't buy it -- Richburg).
This FA list doesn't matter if he doesn't spit the bit in the draft for years on end.
Look at Dallas -- they have not only invested high-end draft capital in the OL, they have actually taken players worthy of that expenditure.
Reese is criminally negligent here, both historically and the past two offseason.
PS -- They should have done nothing this offseason until they had locked up Whitworth. That HAD to be the number one, two and three priority. If that meant no Engram, Marshall, or anybody else on offense, so be it.
Enough with the "athletes". The Giants need football players. Reese needs to get that through his stubborn, arrogant head.
This week is a time for FO humility, desperation in search if a solution, and a willingness to acknowledge and move on from sunk costs.
Take a look at that list - do you think any of those guys would have been as impactful as Vernon and JPP?
Reese's mistakes were simple - drafting Flowers in the first place, and not trying harder to upgrade Jerry and Hart. Even if he had come away with second tier players for both of them, he would have been much better off.
Flowers - a whiff in the top 10 range, an unlikely misfire by Reese, was extremely costly.
Had the Giants followed my instincts, our OL today would be (with ages in parenthesis)...
Robinson (21)--Pugh (27)--Richburg (26)--Zeitler (27)--Schwartz (28).
Compounding the problem was hiring Marc Ross to be his draft guy. Ross had flopped in Buffalo and Philadelphia before Reese hired him. Reese then failed to correct the problem. If what we have been hearing is correct, ownership finally pushed Reese into taking over much of the responsibility that Ross had been apparently exercising for later round draft picks, and those picks started getting a little better.
Had the Giants followed my instincts, our OL today would be (with ages in parenthesis)...
Robinson (21)--Pugh (27)--Richburg (26)--Zeitler (27)--Schwartz (28).
And who aren't you signing to get them?
Penn was never a legit option as he wanted to stay in OAK.
The ineptitude of the offensive line is more impactful than (Vernon + JPP)*10. The offense is not functioning because of it.
This is a team with a history of knowing how to draft defensive linemen, and not knowing how to draft offensive linemen. It stands to reason that they should focus their free agent money in areas they draft poorly.
This isn't me ripping JPP and Vernon. It's me calling out Reese for poor allocation of the wealth of resources we had in spring 2016.
How did we not get him and how did we let the Cowpukes get him.
I'm not sure I completely agree with this however it's only fair way to look at this situation. Free agency is a zero sum game, you are sacrificing to sign some of those names up there.
This is not to suggest the regime hasn't struggled to evaluate OL.
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Take a look at that list - do you think any of those guys would have been as impactful as Vernon and JPP?
The ineptitude of the offensive line is more impactful than (Vernon + JPP)*10. The offense is not functioning because of it.
This is a team with a history of knowing how to draft defensive linemen, and not knowing how to draft offensive linemen. It stands to reason that they should focus their free agent money in areas they draft poorly.
This isn't me ripping JPP and Vernon. It's me calling out Reese for poor allocation of the wealth of resources we had in spring 2016.
I agree the Giants have way too much money tied up into its Defensive line I can see paying one of those guys Vernon or JPP but not both. Now throw in the fact you have bunch of people on here that want to throw 100 million plus at OBJ. I just don't see the value if you want a consistent winning football team.
Line:
Whitworth-Pugh-Richburgh-Flowers-Hart
I don't like Hart at RT, but there could be an alternative:
Whitworth-Jones-Richburgh-Flowers-Pugh
That would have required:
1. Giving up on Flowers at LT, after two years
2. Finding the cap room
Neither 1 nor 2 would have been easy to do.
Agreed.
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...as the team, but in 2016 I was on the Mitchell Schwartz bandwagon and in 2017 I was on the Kevin Zeitler bandwagon and Cam Robinson bandwagon.
Had the Giants followed my instincts, our OL today would be (with ages in parenthesis)...
Robinson (21)--Pugh (27)--Richburg (26)--Zeitler (27)--Schwartz (28).
And who aren't you signing to get them?
The Giants could've fit Zeitler and Schwartz comfortably under the cap without foregoing any of the other free agency moves they have made (other than not re-signing Newhouse and Jerry in 2016 and 2017). Like I said in my previous comment, it would mean an added burden on the cap in 2018-2020, but it would've been a manageable burden and it wouldn't've prevented the team from re-signing OBJ and others as their contracts came up. It would just mean having to restructure some deals to accommodate the cap. Nothing the Giants haven't done in the past when needed.
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In comment 13606920 Milton said:
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...as the team, but in 2016 I was on the Mitchell Schwartz bandwagon and in 2017 I was on the Kevin Zeitler bandwagon and Cam Robinson bandwagon.
Had the Giants followed my instincts, our OL today would be (with ages in parenthesis)...
Robinson (21)--Pugh (27)--Richburg (26)--Zeitler (27)--Schwartz (28).
And who aren't you signing to get them?
I still sign all the guys the Giants signed. It would place an added burden on an otherwise healthy cap situation, but it would be manageable. Maybe it would mean restructuring Eli's deal and there would be some juggling needed down the road, but the Giants would still be able to keep who they want to keep (and that means OBJ).
Sorry. This is delusional. Zietler and Schwartz cost 16.6 m/year alone. That's not "an additional burden" that Jenkins at least and probably more. But it's fun to play pretend, right?
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exactly be a net negative.
Agreed.
Ok, but it means the top 3 WRs are OBJ, Shepard, Lewis.
Some guys will go wherever the money is biggest, some won't. (Teams in high-tax states like NY and NJ are at a disadvantage in that competition.) Some guys will choose other cities for personal or professional reasons. Some don't want to play in New York. Some want to play near home and family. Some don't want to uproot their kids. Guys move, or don't move, for the same reasons as anyone else who's thinking of changing jobs.
It's not up to Reese to choose; it's up to the Giants organization to recruit, in a competitive environment where the player has choice.
Sorry. This is delusional. Zietler and Schwartz cost 16.6 m/year alone. That's not "an additional burden" that Jenkins at least and probably more. But it's fun to play pretend, right?
'opportunism' vs 'necessity' ,
opportunism in the positive sense, i.e. "a great player is available" seems to have been reserved for 'skills positions" whereas -" we now need to" - or 'necessity' logic seems to have been used in OL.
So, whereas the thinking at ODB and EE and so forth being 'here is a unique talent', the thinking at OL seems to have been 'well, we did not do it last year now we have to, so who is on the boards', with results you would expect. an afterthought or staff being dragged into looking at things that don't interest them,
JR has shown a very clear and consistent bias towards certain types of players and I will leave it at that.
2.
When thinking about OL, the same lack of critical thinking that fans display: i.e. thinking that OL equates to college left tackles and that 'those who fail will become guards'. well, at times this works and at times it does not. When was the last time the team targeted what one could reasonably expect to be a ''perennial pro-bowl guard''.
Never, that's when.
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Take a look at that list - do you think any of those guys would have been as impactful as Vernon and JPP?
The ineptitude of the offensive line is more impactful than (Vernon + JPP)*10. The offense is not functioning because of it.
This is a team with a history of knowing how to draft defensive linemen, and not knowing how to draft offensive linemen. It stands to reason that they should focus their free agent money in areas they draft poorly.
This isn't me ripping JPP and Vernon. It's me calling out Reese for poor allocation of the wealth of resources we had in spring 2016.
No, there's no way - because sans Vernon and JPP returning - the defense would be far worse than it is today - making it look just as inept as the offense.
Just like the draft - FA has to be an attempt to put resources in the most talented players available while still filling holes. Not pure BPA - but if there's a choice between a superior player and one not quite as good, and they both address a hole on the team, there's no doubt where the money goes.
Reese has allocated plenty of resources to the offense. Currently, Eli's the highest paid player. He's allocated plenty of picks as well - two #1s and a #2 on the OL. A #1 at WR, #1 at TE, #2 and WR.
Further, as much as nobody wants to hear it - the OL is a big part but not the only reason this offense is dysfunctional. Playcalling has been absymal. Execution has been poor - drops, penalties, interceptions. Just writing it off to the OL and letting Eli, the RBs, Marshall, etc. walk away like we're just two tackles away from some prolific offensive attack is whitewashing the situation.
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Sorry. This is delusional. Zietler and Schwartz cost 16.6 m/year alone. That's not "an additional burden" that Jenkins at least and probably more. But it's fun to play pretend, right?
You are mistaken. Both contracts could be structured so that their cap hits are much less in the early years of their contract. As it is, the Giants are $10M under the cap this year and that's without having restructured any contracts over the past couple or three years. They could easily create an extra $10M in cap space just by restructuring Eli's deal.
OTC says the Giants are 4.6m under at the moment. The idea that you're fitting 16+m under the cap without any ramifications is nonsense. And pushing 10m of Eli's contract down the road makes as many problems as it solves.
The defense has talent on it besides Vernon and JPP. Harrison, Collins, Jenkins, DRC, Apple...these guys wouldn't all of a sudden suck if you replaced Vernon and JPP with Okwara, Wynn, Moss, and someone else.
But if the offensive line is completely not functioning, the other offensive players can not do their jobs, period. And the play calling is inhibited by the fact that they have to account for the fact that they know the line sucks, and (just as importantly) the opponent knows the line sucks.
Opponents don't have to blitz in order to generate offense-wrecking pressure. That is an impossible situation.
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In comment 13607010 BillT said:
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Sorry. This is delusional. Zietler and Schwartz cost 16.6 m/year alone. That's not "an additional burden" that Jenkins at least and probably more. But it's fun to play pretend, right?
You are mistaken. Both contracts could be structured so that their cap hits are much less in the early years of their contract. As it is, the Giants are $10M under the cap this year and that's without having restructured any contracts over the past couple or three years. They could easily create an extra $10M in cap space just by restructuring Eli's deal.
OTC says the Giants are 4.6m under at the moment. The idea that you're fitting 16+m under the cap without any ramifications is nonsense. And pushing 10m of Eli's contract down the road makes as many problems as it solves.
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No, there's no way - because sans Vernon and JPP returning - the defense would be far worse than it is today - making it look just as inept as the offense.
The defense has talent on it besides Vernon and JPP. Harrison, Collins, Jenkins, DRC, Apple...these guys wouldn't all of a sudden suck if you replaced Vernon and JPP with Okwara, Wynn, Moss, and someone else.
But if the offensive line is completely not functioning, the other offensive players can not do their jobs, period. And the play calling is inhibited by the fact that they have to account for the fact that they know the line sucks, and (just as importantly) the opponent knows the line sucks.
Opponents don't have to blitz in order to generate offense-wrecking pressure. That is an impossible situation.
Well Terps at least you're willing to make real changes with real costs. Hard to imagine the Giants without JPP and OV but that's a real solution. Nicely done.
You can't find a replacement for John Jerry really ????
Both Hart and Flowers are both better suited to play guard .
Flipping Flowers to RT no Brandon Graham will destroy him
I don't even want to think of what Von Miller will do ..
Even Beatty, if you go back that far, had lots of question marks coming out of college, some said 'reach', others said 'forced a pick since the previous years they had not addressed offensive line needs'.
Sounds familiar? None of this is new.
At all.
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In comment 13606874 Devon said:
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exactly be a net negative.
Agreed.
Ok, but it means the top 3 WRs are OBJ, Shepard, Lewis.
Also, Ellison is looking like a solid pickup
In 2016 I would not have poured 200 million in to the defensive side of the ball. I probably wouldn't have signed Snacks and went after Osemele instead. But I can't deny Snacks has had a
Tunsil Pugh Richburgh Collins. Flowers(His natural position)
Well Terps at least you're willing to make real changes with real costs. Hard to imagine the Giants without JPP and OV but that's a real solution. Nicely done.
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That's what he did wrong.
Take a look at that list - do you think any of those guys would have been as impactful as Vernon and JPP?
Reese's mistakes were simple - drafting Flowers in the first place, and not trying harder to upgrade Jerry and Hart. Even if he had come away with second tier players for both of them, he would have been much better off.
Flowers - a whiff in the top 10 range, an unlikely misfire by Reese, was extremely costly.
So you don't think signing ANY of the 2017 FA OL would help?
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Well Terps at least you're willing to make real changes with real costs. Hard to imagine the Giants without JPP and OV but that's a real solution. Nicely done.
My suggestions included real changes with real costs, you just don't want to admit it. Apparently you believe it's more real if they unnecessarily sacrifice JPP and OV than if they have to restructure a couple of contracts in order to push the cap hit down the road. The Giants would not have won Super Bowls 42 and 46 had they not been willing to restructure contracts (including Eli's).
And Beckham and Collins both walk in FA because we have no money to pay them. You're essentially saying the Giants could - right now - sign two upper tier FA OL. That's not true, even taking 2016 FA money into account. That's 20 mill dollars per year minimum. We don't have that.
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In comment 13607095 BillT said:
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Well Terps at least you're willing to make real changes with real costs. Hard to imagine the Giants without JPP and OV but that's a real solution. Nicely done.
My suggestions included real changes with real costs, you just don't want to admit it. Apparently you believe it's more real if they unnecessarily sacrifice JPP and OV than if they have to restructure a couple of contracts in order to push the cap hit down the road. The Giants would not have won Super Bowls 42 and 46 had they not been willing to restructure contracts (including Eli's).
And Beckham and Collins both walk in FA because we have no money to pay them. You're essentially saying the Giants could - right now - sign two upper tier FA OL. That's not true, even taking 2016 FA money into account. That's 20 mill dollars per year minimum. We don't have that.
There is always room under the cap for players who are worth it. You just can't afford to be wrong, because that's when paying the piper can't be avoided. But as long as all those guys you paid are performing at a high level, you are golden. Especially if you draft well.
'opportunism' vs 'necessity' ,
opportunism in the positive sense, i.e. "a great player is available" seems to have been reserved for 'skills positions" whereas -" we now need to" - or 'necessity' logic seems to have been used in OL.
So, whereas the thinking at ODB and EE and so forth being 'here is a unique talent', the thinking at OL seems to have been 'well, we did not do it last year now we have to, so who is on the boards', with results you would expect. an afterthought or staff being dragged into looking at things that don't interest them,
JR has shown a very clear and consistent bias towards certain types of players and I will leave it at that.
2.
When thinking about OL, the same lack of critical thinking that fans display: i.e. thinking that OL equates to college left tackles and that 'those who fail will become guards'. well, at times this works and at times it does not. When was the last time the team targeted what one could reasonably expect to be a ''perennial pro-bowl guard''.
Never, that's when.
Dallas
Zack Martin. But thanks for playing. They had Smith so don't pretend he was drafted to be a T. They drafted a stud G and plugged him into an already good line.
Giants pass on good G And T every year. And. It only i the first or 2nd down Eli Apple may become a Great CB but They passed on guy's who would be starting now over the stiffs they have out there.
These guys who say 'the line is good enough', 'big boss likes what we have at left tackle', (or guards, center etc.)', and 'they know better than you guys', or 'draft the sexy wr' have been here every year, will always be a type of fan as long as football exists.
I mean, they aren't saying it at the moment, but last spring and springs forever? Haha, every, every year!
waddya gonna do, we beg for linesmen, running game, play action, protect the QB, they feel the game has changed to the extent that they can ignore all that.
this is how it is.
If you were here - I have been advocating doing -exactly- that since '99.
But, Matty, your football is spot on!
I said THE team....not A team.