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Eli's horrible throw and INT

Britt in VA : 9/19/2017 3:12 pm
three stills and a video, presented without commentary.





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RE: Mighty,  
Mighty : 9/19/2017 3:52 pm : link
In comment 13607240 Keith said:
Quote:
what if he throws it to the same spot a split second earlier, would that work?


Possible but i dont think so. The MLB was standing there and only moves when Smith crosses his face which is about the time Eli starts his throwing motion. If he started his throwing motion sooner the MLB would react to the throw rather than the FB
RE: Surprised none of the  
montanagiant : 9/19/2017 3:52 pm : link
In comment 13607254 moaltch said:
Quote:
apologists blamed Reuben Randle for running the wrong route on the play. How about our 20 million dollar man making an accurate throw on what basically was a pitch and catch. Come on.

I saw two 30 yard plus throws that were perfect get dropped.
RE: RE: RE: Eli may have taken responsibility  
mikeinbloomfield : 9/19/2017 3:52 pm : link
In comment 13607202 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 13607180 Sammo85 said:


Quote:


In comment 13607160 mikeinbloomfield said:


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but this could also be a case where Engram needs to sit in a zone, as opposed to continue his route in man-to-man. Between the two of them, I'm going to guess that the QB with 13 years in the league read the defense correctly, and the rookie didn't.

Eli is not going to pass the buck, and he's really not going to give any defense any information, regardless of how common in the league it is.



Why in heavens would you have Engram sit in zone when he's a man to man mismatch guy? Added to the point is if the throw was better and leading him he had opportunity to tack on at least 7-8 yards more after catch, heck maybe even more. There's no way that Engram just made up his route there. It was a crisp cut by him and a crossing pattern.



This. Some of these defenses are mind numbing. He's running his route, which is drag across the middle of the field. He's running full speed, there is zero excuse for that ball being behind him. It would be nearly impossible to turn and catch the ball with two hands, given he wasn't that far up the field so the amount of time to react and adjust is limited.


It has nothing to do with "running fullspeed" or what kind of "mismatch" he is. The above comment suggests that Giants are calling the Lions defense. It does have everything to do with what Engram's (possible) responsibilities on the play are.

If you look at the screencaps, there is an LB or safety to the right of Engram, waiting for Engram to come into his zone. In this case, it quite likely that it is Engram's job to read the defense and stop his route, rather than run into coverage. If Eli and Engram are on the same page, then ball is where it should be because Engram has stopped. This is football 101.
It was behind  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/19/2017 3:53 pm : link
Engram.
Engram I would have ripped him  
Bluesbreaker : 9/19/2017 3:54 pm : link
for that stupid crude jester 10 cent head .
Yes it was a bad pass the guy on the right looked as if he was breaking free and the other guy ended up at his feet .
This hurt but did not decide the game .
RE: Look at Eli's Feet  
mattlawson : 9/19/2017 3:54 pm : link
In comment 13607225 Jim in South Florida said:
[quote] There is a defender at his feet , he had to relase the ball flat footed, thats why it did not have the zip it need to lead the receiver.
Maybe, he should have thrown it away, he's not A. Rogers [/quote

Not throw it away - just slightly ahead. But essentially my point. He has David Carr syndrome now
RE: RE: RE: RE: i dont know how anyone can  
montanagiant : 9/19/2017 3:54 pm : link
In comment 13607244 jlukes said:
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In comment 13607226 Mighty said:


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In comment 13607215 Sammo85 said:


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In comment 13607205 Mighty said:


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watch that and think Eli should have led him. If he leads him thats an even easier interception by the dropping LB. The problem with the throw is that Eli should have put the throw lower more into the gut. Also Engram needs to realize the LB is dropping and ease up on his route.



Clearly you were watching a different game. There was no threat of INT if he lead him earlier in the route towards the sideline. Come on people. This isn't rocket science.



Clearly you didnt look at the video that the OP went as far as to link in the post. There is a LB dropping into zone right where Engram is headed.



He only had to change the target of his pass by like 3 feet. Still nowhere near the dropping linebacker.
I agree with this point, I would not say 3 feet though maybe 2 at most. It would make it a more catchable ball. But this is what you get when a QB and a receiver have such limited time working together as these two do
pause the linked video  
Mighty : 9/19/2017 3:55 pm : link
at the 3 second mark and tell me where other than right into his gut Eli could have safely put that pass. He couldnt lead him anywhere. He should have put that pass low between the defenders instead of high. but there is no leading when you have a defender dropping into a zone in front of you
RE: pause the linked video  
Sammo85 : 9/19/2017 3:57 pm : link
In comment 13607281 Mighty said:
Quote:
at the 3 second mark and tell me where other than right into his gut Eli could have safely put that pass. He couldnt lead him anywhere. He should have put that pass low between the defenders instead of high. but there is no leading when you have a defender dropping into a zone in front of you


He had ample space to lead him. You're overstating and misreading the dropback.
RE: That was nice of Engram to bail Eli out like that  
map7711 : 9/19/2017 3:57 pm : link
In comment 13607153 jcn56 said:
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but it's behind him, hitting him on one hand when his momentum is carrying him in the other direction. Even OBJ has a hard time coming down with that one.


You never stop
its representative of a 'high octane O'  
idiotsavant : 9/19/2017 3:58 pm : link
that has failed to build in -any- that LACKS all of the 'low octane options', misdirection, play action, slow and reliable in synch type route runner. blocking TEs.

the marshal drop similar, almost a chuck and duck play as opposed to timing alternate target type play action that manning has done so well for so long.

the literal chuck and duck, the one where manning was in process mid crush by some DLer or LB....same thing, great play.

In fact, I would argue that manning made a number of very, very difficult plays given the by hook or by crook nature of the O that they are left with without an OL.

The pass to TE Adams as well.

Its an extreme version of Jim Fassels Ferrari Without an Engine. All that talent going to waste simply due to no run game, ergo no pass protection, ergo no play action, ergo no misdirection, ergo etc etc etc
At the speed Engram was going...  
M.S. : 9/19/2017 4:01 pm : link

...it's absurd to say he coulda, shoulda, woulda caught that pass.

The pass sucked.

Period.

Great work, Britt  
BurberryManning : 9/19/2017 4:04 pm : link
The issue us "apologists" have is not in absolving Eli for any mistakes but in certain fans/posters using hyperbole to describe his play.

We have had multiple posters claim that Eli had a horrible first half last night, in what was a 7-for-9 start to the game. Now, with the benefit of replay, we see that his most egregious mistake was in not leading his receiver a bit more. Two incompletions- one of which was an interception that the receiver graciously took blame for (even if we all agree that the ball could've been place better).

Sure, mention that Eli may not have been helping matters or that he made some mistakes but by engaging in hyperbole many of us feel dumbfounded.
RE: Great work, Britt  
map7711 : 9/19/2017 4:09 pm : link
In comment 13607300 BurberryManning said:
Quote:
The issue us "apologists" have is not in absolving Eli for any mistakes but in certain fans/posters using hyperbole to describe his play.

We have had multiple posters claim that Eli had a horrible first half last night, in what was a 7-for-9 start to the game. Now, with the benefit of replay, we see that his most egregious mistake was in not leading his receiver a bit more. Two incompletions- one of which was an interception that the receiver graciously took blame for (even if we all agree that the ball could've been place better).

Sure, mention that Eli may not have been helping matters or that he made some mistakes but by engaging in hyperbole many of us feel dumbfounded.


Yup. You said it. Thank you. Again there is about 4-5 Eli haters on BBI. All they do is scan the boards for why's to throw him under the bus. It really is unreal.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Eli may have taken responsibility  
ajr2456 : 9/19/2017 4:09 pm : link
In comment 13607267 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
In comment 13607202 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13607180 Sammo85 said:


Quote:


In comment 13607160 mikeinbloomfield said:


Quote:


but this could also be a case where Engram needs to sit in a zone, as opposed to continue his route in man-to-man. Between the two of them, I'm going to guess that the QB with 13 years in the league read the defense correctly, and the rookie didn't.

Eli is not going to pass the buck, and he's really not going to give any defense any information, regardless of how common in the league it is.



Why in heavens would you have Engram sit in zone when he's a man to man mismatch guy? Added to the point is if the throw was better and leading him he had opportunity to tack on at least 7-8 yards more after catch, heck maybe even more. There's no way that Engram just made up his route there. It was a crisp cut by him and a crossing pattern.



This. Some of these defenses are mind numbing. He's running his route, which is drag across the middle of the field. He's running full speed, there is zero excuse for that ball being behind him. It would be nearly impossible to turn and catch the ball with two hands, given he wasn't that far up the field so the amount of time to react and adjust is limited.



It has nothing to do with "running fullspeed" or what kind of "mismatch" he is. The above comment suggests that Giants are calling the Lions defense. It does have everything to do with what Engram's (possible) responsibilities on the play are.

If you look at the screencaps, there is an LB or safety to the right of Engram, waiting for Engram to come into his zone. In this case, it quite likely that it is Engram's job to read the defense and stop his route, rather than run into coverage. If Eli and Engram are on the same page, then ball is where it should be because Engram has stopped. This is football 101.


That linebacker starts to drop Eli is locked on and about to throw it to Engram. That linebackers responsibility was likely the flat, and recovered back to pick up Engram once he realized nothing was coming to the flat.

I can't post pictures from mobile but if you pause it from the sideline angle As the ball approaches Engram that linebacker was already turning his back to Eli. Making an interception was unlikely
Just asking you guys to mind meld Bill Parcells here  
idiotsavant : 9/19/2017 4:09 pm : link
DL gets the heroic sack strip and the ball back. Good field position.

Run 6x and kick field goal.

Given the way the OL is pass protecting here, and the risks that creates in terms of INTs and Injuries.

prevent 7...gain 3, that's a 10pt swing, and ....running eats the clock.

D is rested instead of deflated, you save your season here.
Ways  
map7711 : 9/19/2017 4:10 pm : link
Not why's. Damn spell check!!
...  
christian : 9/19/2017 4:12 pm : link
I hope it brings you solace knowing it wasn't Eli's fault - (even when the coach, the QB, the analysts and the viewing public disagree.)
RE: ...  
map7711 : 9/19/2017 4:17 pm : link
In comment 13607317 christian said:
Quote:
I hope it brings you solace knowing it wasn't Eli's fault - (even when the coach, the QB, the analysts and the viewing public disagree.)


Nah it just shows that every QB in the league throws a pass that's not 100% perfect including Eli. And that pass while not perfect it's not as outrageously bad as some posters claim. How about a freaking player make a play for once on this team? How about not dropping easy passes? How about fighting for one yard for a first down? Make someone miss?
Stop the nonsensical defense of  
section125 : 9/19/2017 4:42 pm : link
that crap throw. Engram was wide open on a crossing pattern. Eli just missed him, period. No excuses that a 240 lb TE should be able to stop on a dime and make a miraculous catch. It was a short throw with some zip - not enough time to stop.

Simply put, right after the defense makes a great turnover, Eli cannot turn that ball over.
Sorry Sect125  
map7711 : 9/19/2017 4:57 pm : link
I want to continue. Sorry buddy.
Hard to believe  
Marty866b : 9/19/2017 5:01 pm : link
That there are so many posters here who blame Engram for that inaccurate,horrendous throw.
RE: Hard to believe  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/19/2017 5:05 pm : link
In comment 13607456 Marty866b said:
Quote:
That there are so many posters here who blame Engram for that inaccurate,horrendous throw.


Or act like they know for a fact what he's supposed to do on that route against that particular defense.
RE: ...  
montanagiant : 9/19/2017 5:05 pm : link
In comment 13607317 christian said:
Quote:
I hope it brings you solace knowing it wasn't Eli's fault - (even when the coach, the QB, the analysts and the viewing public disagree.)

Actually the vast majority of talking heads I have heard today don't blame him for that throw. They mention lack of familiarity between them as the biggest factor.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/19/2017 5:14 pm : link
Paul Schwartz‏Verified account @NYPost_Schwartz 4m4 minutes ago

Eli Manning said on INT Evan Engram is so fast he came out "a little flatter than I anticipated. I got to make a better throw there.''
RE: Sorry Sect125  
section125 : 9/19/2017 5:19 pm : link
In comment 13607443 map7711 said:
Quote:
I want to continue. Sorry buddy.


That's ok. Opinions are like....we all have one. (even if wrong)
RE: RE: ...  
section125 : 9/19/2017 5:22 pm : link
In comment 13607464 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 13607317 christian said:


Quote:


I hope it brings you solace knowing it wasn't Eli's fault - (even when the coach, the QB, the analysts and the viewing public disagree.)


Actually the vast majority of talking heads I have heard today don't blame him for that throw. They mention lack of familiarity between them as the biggest factor.


Eli is teflon as usual. That throw turned the game around. The defense had just stopped Detroit after the Giants went done the field for a sort of easy TD.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
gmen9892 : 9/19/2017 5:37 pm : link
In comment 13607484 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13607464 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In comment 13607317 christian said:


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I hope it brings you solace knowing it wasn't Eli's fault - (even when the coach, the QB, the analysts and the viewing public disagree.)


Actually the vast majority of talking heads I have heard today don't blame him for that throw. They mention lack of familiarity between them as the biggest factor.



Eli is teflon as usual. That throw turned the game around. The defense had just stopped Detroit after the Giants went done the field for a sort of easy TD.


So not the dropped 30 yard pass from Marshall, or the holding by Jones at the 1 yard line, or the dropped td pass by Engram, or the 3 sacks given up by Flowers, not the punt return for a TD when only down 7, not the Engram penalty and subsequent kick out of bounds. None of those moments turned the game around? Cmon man.

Eli made a bad throw. One of many over his career. That was not the turning point. If this offense isnt good enough to overcome ONE turnover, then we arent going to have a very long season anyways.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
montanagiant : 9/19/2017 5:45 pm : link
In comment 13607484 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13607464 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In comment 13607317 christian said:


Quote:


I hope it brings you solace knowing it wasn't Eli's fault - (even when the coach, the QB, the analysts and the viewing public disagree.)


Actually the vast majority of talking heads I have heard today don't blame him for that throw. They mention lack of familiarity between them as the biggest factor.



Eli is teflon as usual. That throw turned the game around. The defense had just stopped Detroit after the Giants went done the field for a sort of easy TD.

Call in and complain to them then, i'm sure they will appreciate your strawman point
Eli just said  
arniefez : 9/19/2017 5:50 pm : link
that Engram is fast and got there quicker than he thought and also flattened out a little more than he thought he would. So basically Eli threw to the open window as you can see in the pictures above and he and the rookie weren't on the same page.

I will always support Eli 100% and never take for granted how he's played in NY for over a decade but I have to say it's on the vet not the rookie on that play.
It was Eli's fault ...  
DonQuixote : 9/19/2017 5:51 pm : link
...but I don't think it was because he was inaccurate. I think if he leads Engram on that play, Whitehead intercepts, so Eli was threading a needle. If true, the mistake was not choosing another receiver but rather trying to force it in.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
bigbluehoya : 9/19/2017 5:55 pm : link
In comment 13607503 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
In comment 13607484 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 13607464 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In comment 13607317 christian said:


Quote:


I hope it brings you solace knowing it wasn't Eli's fault - (even when the coach, the QB, the analysts and the viewing public disagree.)


Actually the vast majority of talking heads I have heard today don't blame him for that throw. They mention lack of familiarity between them as the biggest factor.



Eli is teflon as usual. That throw turned the game around. The defense had just stopped Detroit after the Giants went done the field for a sort of easy TD.



So not the dropped 30 yard pass from Marshall, or the holding by Jones at the 1 yard line, or the dropped td pass by Engram, or the 3 sacks given up by Flowers, not the punt return for a TD when only down 7, not the Engram penalty and subsequent kick out of bounds. None of those moments turned the game around? Cmon man.

Eli made a bad throw. One of many over his career. That was not the turning point. If this offense isnt good enough to overcome ONE turnover, then we arent going to have a very long season anyways.


Is it really a stretch to call the INT a turning point in the game?

A team that can't seem to get anything going, has looked like shit dating back to an awful playoff performance last year, is playing a primtetime game at home, come out like dogshit again and has the crowd starting to turn on them a bit. They FINALLY put together a scoring drive to tie the game after a shit first quarter. And they get to the QB, force a fumble, and get the elusive turnover! Here we go! Things are starting to turn! We've got this!

And they throw a fucking interception on the very next play to give it right back.

And it's a scalding hot take that offends your sensibilities to call that the turning point in the game?

RE: That was nice of Engram to bail Eli out like that  
WillVAB : 9/19/2017 5:55 pm : link
In comment 13607153 jcn56 said:
Quote:
but it's behind him, hitting him on one hand when his momentum is carrying him in the other direction. Even OBJ has a hard time coming down with that one.


Keep doubling down.
the int was hurtful, but not critical, just a bad 2Q play.  
stoneman : 9/19/2017 6:15 pm : link
I thought the most critical play was Marshall's drop - killed everything going late in the game. Even the punt return hurt more.
All QB's throw interceptions  
PatersonPlank : 9/19/2017 6:18 pm : link
Right now Eli is on track for 16, which is ok. There was plenty of time to win that game.
RE: Eli just said  
Milton : 9/19/2017 6:22 pm : link
In comment 13607515 arniefez said:
Quote:
that Engram is fast and got there quicker than he thought and also flattened out a little more than he thought he would. So basically Eli threw to the open window as you can see in the pictures above and he and the rookie weren't on the same page.

I will always support Eli 100% and never take for granted how he's played in NY for over a decade but I have to say it's on the vet not the rookie on that play.
What if Engram wasn't supposed to have "flattened out" as much as he did, then who is it on? And Eli always blames himself publicly. He'll never throw his receiver under the bus. A veteran TE might've known to slow down and sit in the zone on a play like that. Not knowing the design of the play, it's impossible for any of us to know who was at fault.
You'd think after watching so many Eli interceptions  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/19/2017 6:51 pm : link
people wouldn't feel compelled to go to lengths to blame anyone else but him.

Some of them are his fault. It is okay to acknowledge bad throws.
It doesn't really matter who was at fault on that play  
arniefez : 9/19/2017 6:57 pm : link
it's a symptom of a much greater team ill. Once again having one of the very worst OL's in the NFL is wrecking the team. That is not on Eli. That's on the Mara's Bros, Reese and the coaching staff.
That pass was fucking terrible  
djm : 9/19/2017 7:09 pm : link
.
RE: RE: Sorry Sect125  
map7711 : 9/19/2017 7:19 pm : link
In comment 13607480 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13607443 map7711 said:


Quote:


I want to continue. Sorry buddy.



That's ok. Opinions are like....we all have one. (even if wrong)


Yup. It must suck to know when you're wrong but can't let it go. Sorry about that buddy but live w it.
RE: the int was hurtful, but not critical, just a bad 2Q play.  
section125 : 9/19/2017 7:44 pm : link
In comment 13607545 stoneman said:
Quote:
I thought the most critical play was Marshall's drop - killed everything going late in the game. Even the punt return hurt more.


With no int, the Giants likely keep moving down the field. In any case, the score is no worse than 7-7 not losing 14-7.

The Marshall drop, while crucial, the Giants were already losing 24-10 with 8:30 left, so chances were not that great they overcome that lead, or not guaranteed.
17-10 at the time of the Marshall drop  
Kyle in NY : 9/19/2017 7:47 pm : link
The punt return was right after it
RE: 17-10 at the time of the Marshall drop  
Jim in Fairfax : 9/19/2017 8:01 pm : link
In comment 13607638 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
The punt return was right after it

Exactly. Catch would have put them in Lions territory down by 7. Good potential to tie the game.
RE: RE: the int was hurtful, but not critical, just a bad 2Q play.  
JCin332 : 9/19/2017 8:52 pm : link
In comment 13607636 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13607545 stoneman said:


Quote:


I thought the most critical play was Marshall's drop - killed everything going late in the game. Even the punt return hurt more.



With no int, the Giants likely keep moving down the field. In any case, the score is no worse than 7-7 not losing 14-7.

The Marshall drop, while crucial, the Giants were already losing 24-10 with 8:30 left, so chances were not that great they overcome that lead, or not guaranteed.


This is a perfect example of why sometimes I think that some of these so called "fans" don't watch the games...

In their zeal to hammer Eli they have no clue as to what actually happened in the game...

Was it catchable??  
EricJ : 9/19/2017 9:02 pm : link
sure I guess so. However, why are so many of these passes far far off target? Eli did make some nice throws in the game but damn too many poor throws.

Since we are talking about Engram, take a look at the video of his TD catch. Wide fucking open by at least 5 yards. Thank God Engram is athletic because the throw was high and behind him.

Why does it often have to be so difficult?

We can also cue up the perfect pass he gifted to Marshall that was dropped.
Engram TD - ( New Window )
It's not that complicated  
WillVAB : 9/19/2017 9:07 pm : link
It wasn't a great throw but it wasn't a horrible throw either. It was a catchable ball like some on the game thread said at the time.

QBs make the same type of throws all the time every week. The only reason it's a hot button topic is because of bad luck.
What we are really arguing about his an adjective...  
JOrthman : 9/19/2017 9:15 pm : link
.
spin doctoring  
micky : 9/19/2017 9:30 pm : link
.
...  
christian : 9/19/2017 9:52 pm : link
If we're being objective (and we're not), it's pretty fair to assume if the safest place to throw the ball is behind the receiver, it probably was a bad decision to throw it, no?
Sorry, but Eli is an NFL QB and our highest paid player  
Daniel in MI : 9/19/2017 9:58 pm : link
It's not a long throw. Put it where it belongs, in front of EE. I see other QBs make this throw - and harder ones - all the time. It was a shit throw for an NFL QB.

Running full speed in one direction it's not very to reach back and catch a ball behind you. It would have been an amazing catch if he got it (and the TD was a pretty damn good catch that Chucky barely mentioned, why was that ball behind him, too)?

Eli is rushing and it's no wonder. But please, if an "NFL WR needs to make that catch" then sure as hell an NFL QB needs to make that throw. Even a throw a bit low or high in front of him is probably caught. But a shorter throw behind him coming across? Very unlikely.
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