Right now this team is 0-2 & by no means am I giving up on the season. It doesn't look good, but I'm hoping this can be turned around & figured out. However, it is fair to ask if giving Odell the highest paid contract in the NFL is a good allocation of resources given the state of the OL.
NFL teams are built from the inside-out. The game is won in the trenches, that has never changed. WR's are easier to find than OL. I think Beckham is incredible & a unique talent, but I can't help but thinking giving him massive money is a mistake. Some thoughts-
-2013 onward has been ruined by a putrid offensive line. We've had Beckham since 2014 and it has yielded an overall record of 23-28 (he's missed a few of those games), but his incredible performances aren't producing wins. He's saved the offenses ass many times, but is that a correct way to build a sustainable winner? Last year was driven by the defense & special teams.
-The Giants aren't constructed well. This has been a bad team that threw massive money out in free agency towards the defense to make up for lousy drafting. Ideally, free agency should supplement drafting, not be the driving force. It just isn't an ideal/sustainable ingredient to winning.
-Lastly, it just feels like the Giants have a Ferrari that they could buy & it'll be really fun to drive, but the Ferrari won't help when a SUV is needed in the snow. That's what Beckham feels like, so much else is broken here.
I know people are going to say, no way you can trade an all pro talent like Beckham, and I get that. He's an amazing talent. But does signing him make sense long term?
Again, I hope it doesn't come to this. I'm rooting hard for this to turn around. BUT, if we are sitting at 1-5, does trading him & loading up on picks make sense? This thing needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.
Acquiring talent in the NFL is hard, you don't trade your most explosive player when your team has a top end defense.
Acquiring talent in the NFL is hard, you don't trade your most explosive player when your team has a top end defense.
Love OBJ, buy when you need to fill several positions on O, you don't rely on one player to make up for mediocre LT, RG, RT and HB... Parcells, Belichick, etc. always have had more balance among players in order to win championships
Quote:
What happens when you trade Bekcham and the players you sign or draft aren't good?
Acquiring talent in the NFL is hard, you don't trade your most explosive player when your team has a top end defense.
Love OBJ, buy when you need to fill several positions on O, you don't rely on one player to make up for mediocre LT, RG, RT and HB... Parcells, Belichick, etc. always have had more balance among players in order to win championships
That doesn’t answer my question. What happens if the guys you get for Odell don’t work out?
I think the best way to maximize Beckham as a resource is to get this year out of him and then trade him. They should have done it already. From the looks of things he is being devalued by the day in part because of his injury and in part because of the struggles of the offense.
Okay, we get it. You're Jeff Loria.
It's bad luck and it happens. They need a major fix this upcoming offseason, by we will be a far worse team without Beckham. Ohh and Eli isn't playing 4-5 more years and if he does it won't be with the Giants. They move on after next year IMO.
Quote:
In comment 13607754 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
What happens when you trade Bekcham and the players you sign or draft aren't good?
Acquiring talent in the NFL is hard, you don't trade your most explosive player when your team has a top end defense.
Love OBJ, buy when you need to fill several positions on O, you don't rely on one player to make up for mediocre LT, RG, RT and HB... Parcells, Belichick, etc. always have had more balance among players in order to win championships
That doesn’t answer my question. What happens if the guys you get for Odell don’t work out?
Fine, let's have the most expensive WR in the league... see how many championships you win with that... so far, not much... Lombardi, Noll, Parcells and Belichick never relied upon a WR to carry their team to the Super Bowl... So far, it has not won us even a playoff game.
It's bad luck and it happens. They need a major fix this upcoming offseason, by we will be a far worse team without Beckham. Ohh and Eli isn't playing 4-5 more years and if he does it won't be with the Giants. They move on after next year IMO.
Good point, but you also have to take into account that making Dak beat you with his arm is completely different then Eli having to do so. I honestly think the fact we have ignored getting a serious threat at RB is every bit as bad as the failure of the O-Line
Quote:
and as we see with Dallas, no guarantee the best OL in the league will win you a Super Bowl.
It's bad luck and it happens. They need a major fix this upcoming offseason, by we will be a far worse team without Beckham. Ohh and Eli isn't playing 4-5 more years and if he does it won't be with the Giants. They move on after next year IMO.
Good point, but you also have to take into account that making Dak beat you with his arm is completely different then Eli having to do so. I honestly think the fact we have ignored getting a serious threat at RB is every bit as bad as the failure of the O-Line
Demarco Murray was a great back behind a great O-line in 2015... but without Romo, the team sucked
Nobody is able to build a complete team. Everyone has holes. Beyond those holes, everyone in the NFL has scarce depth, so the wrong injury in a spot or two is murder. Nobody wants to hear it - but a good deal of winning it all is luck.
The only team in the NFL that comes close to looking complete on a regular basis is NE, and they're doing it because their coach happens to be one of the greatest of all time, and they've got a great QB in the top spot. And even then, they're not complete. Facing high levels of competition and the wrong matchup, they can be exploited as well.
Letting Beckham go to try so spread the wealth to achieve a more balanced team only assures us of having one of the best WRs in the league on the roster, nothing else.
You don't throw good money after bad by giving up an elite talent for OL help. Who would that be by the way? I don't see any attractive FA options that we'd need the money for next year. You'd need at least two quality OL and a draft pick who happens to pan out for a Beckham trade to be palatable. I can't even think of a potential trade partner with the assets or who'd be willing.
You don't throw good money after bad by giving up an elite talent for OL help. Who would that be by the way? I don't see any attractive FA options that we'd need the money for next year. You'd need at least two quality OL and a draft pick who happens to pan out for a Beckham trade to be palatable. I can't even think of a potential trade partner with the assets or who'd be willing.
Okay, we'll keep the top notch WR but we'll have to live with a lousy O-line and an immobile 37 year old quasi-HoF QB... that'll get us a 6-10 record
You don't throw good money after bad by giving up an elite talent for OL help. Who would that be by the way? I don't see any attractive FA options that we'd need the money for next year. You'd need at least two quality OL and a draft pick who happens to pan out for a Beckham trade to be palatable. I can't even think of a potential trade partner with the assets or who'd be willing.
This not basketball... one stellar WR does not win a title....back in the '70's, Dave Jennings, Harry Carson and Brad Van Pelt were perennial All-Pros or top Pro Bowl players despite how lousy the team played... we need to rebuild the OL or this team will not succeed
Quote:
Because Flowers isn't any good, Pugh is just ok, Richberg regressed, and the right side is a mess. So essentially 3 bad premium picks and no luck dumpster diving on the right side.
You don't throw good money after bad by giving up an elite talent for OL help. Who would that be by the way? I don't see any attractive FA options that we'd need the money for next year. You'd need at least two quality OL and a draft pick who happens to pan out for a Beckham trade to be palatable. I can't even think of a potential trade partner with the assets or who'd be willing.
Okay, we'll keep the top notch WR but we'll have to live with a lousy O-line and an immobile 37 year old quasi-HoF QB... that'll get us a 6-10 record
What do you recommend trading for? Or are you just bitching for the hell of it?
If it's a slew of picks, that's great I guess. But then you're entrusting the same group of guys who drafted Flowers/Pugh/Richberg to actually draft good OL. Plus they have to replace Beckham.
If it's players plus picks who's the partner and what are we getting?
Quote:
In comment 13607797 Mcphedge said:
Quote:
In comment 13607754 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
What happens when you trade Bekcham and the players you sign or draft aren't good?
Acquiring talent in the NFL is hard, you don't trade your most explosive player when your team has a top end defense.
Love OBJ, buy when you need to fill several positions on O, you don't rely on one player to make up for mediocre LT, RG, RT and HB... Parcells, Belichick, etc. always have had more balance among players in order to win championships
That doesn’t answer my question. What happens if the guys you get for Odell don’t work out?
Fine, let's have the most expensive WR in the league... see how many championships you win with that... so far, not much... Lombardi, Noll, Parcells and Belichick never relied upon a WR to carry their team to the Super Bowl... So far, it has not won us even a playoff game.
I was unaware that we have an all time great head coach
Quote:
Because Flowers isn't any good, Pugh is just ok, Richberg regressed, and the right side is a mess. So essentially 3 bad premium picks and no luck dumpster diving on the right side.
You don't throw good money after bad by giving up an elite talent for OL help. Who would that be by the way? I don't see any attractive FA options that we'd need the money for next year. You'd need at least two quality OL and a draft pick who happens to pan out for a Beckham trade to be palatable. I can't even think of a potential trade partner with the assets or who'd be willing.
This not basketball... one stellar WR does not win a title....back in the '70's, Dave Jennings, Harry Carson and Brad Van Pelt were perennial All-Pros or top Pro Bowl players despite how lousy the team played... we need to rebuild the OL or this team will not succeed
And our own franchise is living proof of this.
Ask yourself this...name the franchise that has won the Super Bowl where its wide receiver was its best player?
It doesn't happen.
Folks can be seduced by Odell's talent. He's a great player and no one disputes that. When you can't block, you can't get him the ball. Deep balls to him are almost eliminated from the offense because we no time to get them off. Lanes are clogged because the defense can put more guys in the areas because we can't block a 4-man rush or run the ball.
Given the option when it comes to money allocation, what would one take:
Odell + average run game + poor o-line
or
B-level WR's + good run game + great o-line
Trading away Beckham to take advantage of the "Eli window" is a fan driven strategy that had so much downside it's laughable.
I also think you don't let go of game changing weapons if you want to compete for a championship.
1. Trading Beckham for picks is foolish because draft picks aren't a sure thing...
But who says Beckham is a sure thing? How is it reasonable to simply extrapolate what he's already done over the years of an enormous contract?
2. The Cowboys model of building a great offensive line isn't a good one because we beat them twice last year.
If I recall correctly, their "model" got them to 13-3 and an Aaron Rodgers/Mason Crosby miracle away from hosting the NFC Championship game despite playing the entire season with a rookie 4th round pick at QB. Anyone here think we'd get to 13-3 if we played this whole season with Davis Webb? Me neither.
3. We shouldn't try to emulate or even learn from the Patriots because we don't have Belichick.
How does this make even the remotest sense? History tells us that you can and should emulate the great minds of the era. Tom Landry, Paul Brown, Bill Walsh...these men and others shaped the way the game was played forever as the succeeding generations studied them and stood on their shoulders. Why should Belichick be any different? Why can't we try to learn from what makes him so successful and try to use that in some way, small or large, to improve our own team?
Anyway, when it comes to trading Beckham, I view it as a simple economic exercise:
Beckham < 2 or 3 premium draft picks + ~$18 million cap space
Though who knows about the 2 or 3 premium draft picks anymore. His value degrades by the day.
With the amount of high quality WR's that are being produced into the NFL, you might not be able to find an "Odell," but it's not like if you don't have him you can't find more than quality replacements and be a high efficient offense.
I just don't see a scenario where the Giants can pay Odell top dollar, pay Eli top dollar, and then what appears to be a possible situation developing now where they may have to replace all 5 offensive linemen after this season and put good money into that.
1. Trading Beckham for picks is foolish because draft picks aren't a sure thing...
But who says Beckham is a sure thing? How is it reasonable to simply extrapolate what he's already done over the years of an enormous contract?
You're trolling right? I'd put my money on the guy whose put up numbers over THREE years that only guys like Moss and Rice have over a to be named draft pick.
With the amount of high quality WR's that are being produced into the NFL, you might not be able to find an "Odell," but it's not like if you don't have him you can't find more than quality replacements and be a high efficient offense.
I just don't see a scenario where the Giants can pay Odell top dollar, pay Eli top dollar, and then what appears to be a possible situation developing now where they may have to replace all 5 offensive linemen after this season and put good money into that.
Cutting Eli after this season saves them $10 million. Easy answer there.
Hypothetically you're asking for two 1s for Odell. Well guess what, the team that has him will perform better with him so that second pick won't be as high.
Plus, only teams close to contention are trading for a superstar WR, so you're limiting yourself to a pick at the bottom of the first.
The biggest risk in the entire scenario you have presented is that we'd lose a game changing player for 1 or 2 more Ereck Flowers'. Cool.
The biggest risk in the entire scenario you have presented is that we'd lose a game changing player for 1 or 2 more Ereck Flowers'. Cool.
Why should we assume that Beckham will continue to put up similar production? We're two games into this season and he hasn't reached 40 yards receiving.
Why do you assume we'd blow the picks? We've drafted some good players in recent years...and we've especially excelled at drafting WRs. In my scenario you could just as easily draft two good players with the picks you get for Beckham, and have the cap space to pay a couple more quality free agents.
Our record since we drafted Beckham is 23-27. You think that number is going to get better when his cap hit is 6 times what it is now?
Everyone has a price. But Beckham's is really, really high - even with the looming contract.
You are right terps there's no guarantees. But we aren't going to be lying Eli anymore and we won't be paying for a FA QB because hat doesn't really exist anymore. Our next QB will most likely be cost controlled so I'm not nearly as worried about the cap with Beckham as you are. He's going to get a bit more than Antonio Brown; is Pitt better with or without him?
Just look at the package Dallas got from Minnesota for Hershall Walker .
The players and draft choices the Cowboys received in that deal helped them to build a team that won multiple Super Bowls .
Beckham is going to demand a huge contract . That money might be better spent spread out a little more to fills the many holes on the offensive line we have , rather than putting us in salary cap hell .
3 1sts
3 2nds
and a 3rd round pick?
And all that cap space?
Where do I sign up?
If they package is great enough I'd entertain it for any player but we aren't going to get some unreal offer - that team would have to pay twice in both assets and salary cap. So if it's a couple late firsts, no thanks, does nothing for me. And a couple late firsts is more realistic than anything else mentioned.
You are right terps there's no guarantees. But we aren't going to be lying Eli anymore and we won't be paying for a FA QB because hat doesn't really exist anymore. Our next QB will most likely be cost controlled so I'm not nearly as worried about the cap with Beckham as you are. He's going to get a bit more than Antonio Brown; is Pitt better with or without him?
I thought Pittsburgh was nuts to pay Brown what they did.
If they used Brown's money to sign two or three players on their defense, they'd be better.
Quote:
but whatever works.
You are right terps there's no guarantees. But we aren't going to be lying Eli anymore and we won't be paying for a FA QB because hat doesn't really exist anymore. Our next QB will most likely be cost controlled so I'm not nearly as worried about the cap with Beckham as you are. He's going to get a bit more than Antonio Brown; is Pitt better with or without him?
I thought Pittsburgh was nuts to pay Brown what they did.
In your opinion then, which players/positions are worth paying for? Even New England pays up now and again. Seems like you just prefer to never pay anybody a second contract. Which just isn't realistic
Quote:
are they better with or without Brown? Ben might retire sooner than Eli so that cap room will become available to use sooner rather than later.
If they used Brown's money to sign two or three players on their defense, they'd be better.
Completely disagree but no sense in arguing anymore.
And the season after he "retired," the Lions made the playoffs, which does not happen often up there.
Johnson's production was able to be replaced. At that particular position, you can do that.
Quote:
are they better with or without Brown? Ben might retire sooner than Eli so that cap room will become available to use sooner rather than later.
If they used Brown's money to sign two or three players on their defense, they'd be better.
Correct. If you asked Ben privately, he would likely tell you he would rather have the type of team that he was able to lead to 3 Super Bowls (2 SB wins). Ever since the money was put more into the offense side of the ball and less on the defense, they haven't gotten back to the Super Bowl and have not even been able to sniff the Patriots in these games when they play head-to-head. And they won't be able to again until that happens.
There's many reasons why Pitt hasn't gotten back to a SB, almost zero of it has to do with paying Brown instead of other players (he just got paid this year and they've been heavily investing in defense anyway). Fact is it's really fucking hard to get to a Super Bowl, even harder when the best dynasty in the history of the sport has your number and your aging QB is inferior to theirs as is the HC.
Quote:
You completely lose me at Beckham possibly being done performing at a high level. Unless it's a career ending injury how does that even make sense? We also wouldn't bet that haul of picks because no team is giving multiple 1sts and $100 million to a non QB.
The biggest risk in the entire scenario you have presented is that we'd lose a game changing player for 1 or 2 more Ereck Flowers'. Cool.
Why should we assume that Beckham will continue to put up similar production? We're two games into this season and he hasn't reached 40 yards receiving.
Why do you assume we'd blow the picks? We've drafted some good players in recent years...and we've especially excelled at drafting WRs. In my scenario you could just as easily draft two good players with the picks you get for Beckham, and have the cap space to pay a couple more quality free agents.
Our record since we drafted Beckham is 23-27. You think that number is going to get better when his cap hit is 6 times what it is now?
Ok I'll humor you. Let's say we trade Beckham to the Bills for two first rounders. You've already said you wouldn't trust Reese to pick OL in the draft. A pick will be burned at WR to replace him.
So in the end we probably end up with two unknowns at OT/WR with the picks and probably another unknown at OL with our own pick plus money. Money that we won't be able to spend on OL FA upgrades because the list is trash for '18.
A lot of things would have to work out in this scenario for the trade to be palatable. We'd have to hit on two OTs in the draft, hit on a replacement WR, re-sign Pugh and Richberg, and successfully move Flowers to guard. Highly improbable.
The only other scenario would be picks and players for Beckham. Just don't see it unless a team like TEN is dying for a playmaking WR and gives up something crazy. Just don't see it happening.