Sy'56 BBI Giants-Lions Game Review Now Available

You framed up this game and the current status of this team
The front office screwed the pooch on the offensive line I hear some saying there was nothing out there blah blah
there are no excuses with the stubbornness to trot these same guys out there . This line could have been fixed this year and could have added two more early in the draft to not only give us some depth but secure the future .
The RB situation isn't much better and having to go with Vereen is obvious right now but I not sure if he can hold up the entire season he is not a work horse but we need any kind of rushing yards we can get
Watching OV go against Robinson I expected to get a lot more pressure than we did . Not all that impressed with
Thompson either . Apple is so hit and miss but he does
struggle locating the ball coupled with his penchant for holding he will make an exceptional play turn around and get burnt the next . Munson played his butt off but we still missed Goodson . I feel we still lack a speed rusher
at LB . DRC shouldn't be leading the team in tackles not a good sign for he is also injury prone .
I would have lit into Engram for his MJ move no excuse for
that garbage on the Giants got away with it because it's
a momentum killer if the Lions turned that drive into points . . I hope they use the two TE formation more with Jerell Adams and Ellison give both more reps to help the run game both shown the ability to get open and catch the ball so the defense can't key on the run when both are on the field . Special teams were anything but special .
But Sy your review was excellent catching the little things that we don't always see and I am not at all impressed
by Ben Mac not in any way shape or form .
He got out coached by a mile against Dallas and I have no idea what he is trying to do on offense but he has no answers sure the O-line is probably the worst in the NFL
But his attitude stinks and throwing Eli under the bus is inexcusable to me .

I think you're taking it WAY too easy on Eli and being WAY, WAY, WAY too hard on Brandon Marshall. Eli killed 2 first half drives by holding the ball too long. For the second consecutive week, there were instances of him missing open receivers when he actually had time to throw.

I think you take some frankly unfair shots at Brandon Marshall. This team had the exact same problem last season that I see developing with Marshall where he doesn't get targets for long stretches to begin a game.(That even happened with Odell.) He absolutely must catch that pass down the sideline... no excuses. However, I'm not surprised that he dropped the ball after getting 1 target for about 40 minutes. WRs tend to lose focus and that is more likely to happen. In addition, it's not like he hasn't gotten open. NFL Matchup showed a clip from the Dallas game in which he was completely wide open over the middle of the field and Eli couldn't get him that ball because he was sliding away from some pressure on his right side. If you want to kill him for the drop, fine. He deserves that. To go beyond that is unfair and unnecessary.

I think you also applied the Lions' first sack of the night to Jerry when that guy (Ngata) should've been blocked by Hart, who fell down. Eli also held the ball too long on that play.

c'mon guy. Too hard on Brandon Marshall?

He had two critical drops and one of them was a ball that you couldn't have walked down the field and HANDED to him better.

by this organization is a disgrace. Eli gave us two Super-bowls, has given he's heart and soul to this team and John Mara doesn't step in. The stubbornness of this Head Coach is going to get Eli hurt. As a Giants fan for over sixty years I have never been so angry about this team.

In comment 13608792 McNally's_Nuts said:

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c'mon guy. Too hard on Brandon Marshall? He had two critical drops and one of them was a ball that you couldn't have walked down the field and HANDED to him better.

And Eli Manning is not seeing wide open receivers and has held the ball too long at times. No one is intimating that he's merely cashing checks while waiting to retire. Yes, Brandon Marshall must catch that pass. However, his failure to catch that pass doesn't mean he's quitting or is a "has-been". Odell dropped a pass towards the end of the game. No one is turning that drop into an attack on his character or ability. Call a fuck-up (the drop) a possibly game-changing fuck-up and leave it at that. There was no need to go beyond that.

In comment 13608541 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 13608539 JonC said: Quote: is a wishful stopgap, it's why they haven't done it. Many thought the same thing of Brad Benson. Pugh to LT is the obvious move.

David Diehl too.....he moved there in the playoff game of 2006 if I remember correctly, or around that time.

others throughout league thought not..Shows thought process of this giants evaluators and scouts

An offense that scores thirteen points in two games should get a more critical review. Similarly for for defense with a subpar pass rush that can't get off the field on third downs.

Even if it is, maybe desperation is what they need. He can play more than competent LT. He is absolutely the best LT on the team. Again all they need is league average play at LT. Move Flowers to RT or LG. Maybe move Hart to LG, because I have to agree he is not a RT - just not quick enough against wide split speed rushers.

I have not been happy with Eli's play for a while, but the best (only) chance for a winning season is with Eli upright and healthy. Eli is still a top 12 QB and if they can get him comfortable he may start making plays he is a top 6 QB.

his price tag goes up

In comment 13608849 SHO'NUFF said:

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his price tag goes up

Yep, that's potentially part of the aftermath as well.

In comment 13608849 SHO'NUFF said:

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his price tag goes up

If it means Eli doesn't lose feeling in his extremities then so be it. There is a serious question as to whether or not his current price tag is worth it or not. We don't have to re-sign an average to above average guard/tackle. But ultimately in order to avoid overpaying we need to draft much better. It's a shit situation in the near and long term.

is a move of desperation because I think that is where this situation now resides.

And it is a 2017 fix, not my plan for the future. Sometimes a short term move is needed when your QB is 38.

I understand and realize we're all at the end of our wits with NYG. I'm also annoyed that they've spent multiple premium draft picks on the OL and it's produced painfully little.

They need to get the checkbook ready next March, and not to retain the incumbents.

what I really liked was pointing out that we need a lot more out of OV and JPP. In fact, Vernon, in spite of his pressures, has been a disappointment this year. He should have done to Robinson what Ansah did to Flowers.

The shot at the front office is totally warranted. Once again, it has to be made clear that Reese has done nothing to fix this line and we are paying the price.

McAdoo better shape up...his demeanour and throwing Eli under the bus...says a lot more about him than Eli.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any opinions on Travis Swanson the Lions center? He was a guy I wanted instead of Richburg. He seems to have had an initial rough time in Detroit but may have turned the corner. He is supposed to be a FA next year.

This team is 0-2 and about to head to Philadelphia early in a season that has Super Bowl aspirations with an aging QB and an offensive line that literally can't block anyone.

You do what's best for Sunday and THIS season. You worry about Pugh's contract status in the offseason.

unless you're a fan who doesn't care about it.

Shockey is the best, and Marshall is pretty good too. Getting free of coverage, but has made a few nervous drops. VC did that too, before ripping apart the league.

As they likely won't be giving Flowers OLT money on his next contract.

review. Thanks again Sy. I don't think the Giants will be able to afford Pugh after what guards got in FA this year. The question is do we want and can we afford to retain Richburg.

In comment 13608888 Reb8thVA said:

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Just out of curiosity, do you have any opinions on Travis Swanson the Lions center? He was a guy I wanted instead of Richburg. He seems to have had an initial rough time in Detroit but may have turned the corner. He is supposed to be a FA next year.

I was big on Swanson coming out of Arkansas and I, too, wanted him the year NYG drafted Richburg. Bigger, more athletic, more potential.

He was put in to the starting lineup at OG because of injuries too early, but seems much more ready now that he has put some power in to his game. I like him a lot as a starting OC, maybe even RG.

in the right context.

If the Giants refusal to play Pugh at LT comes down to his potential future contract demands then shame on them.

There is a game to be won and a season to preserve right now. This isn't a perfect world scenario, monitoring Pugh's value on the open market AND winning is a luxury it doesn't appear we have.

I'd rather a shot at a Super Bowl this season and inflate Pugh's value than be 0-3 but tell myself at least Pugh will be more affordable.

1) Spot on review
2) I agree about Pugh. If Pugh hadn't filled in a few games last year and played well, I would understand some of the concerns expressed here. But he did, and he played LT most of his college career. So, this may not even be a stop gap. As Eric said, it is just the right move at this time.

3) Assuming Pugh actually got moved, are we better off with Flowers at RT over Hart, Fluker, or Wheeler? Is Fluker better at RT than he is at OF? Can Flowers realistically move to OG?

4) is it possible McAdoo spoke with Eli and threw him under the bus to not have to do so with so many other guys? Even if this were the case, that is week.

5)I am liking McAdoo less and less. Last year seems to have been an 11-5 year in spite of him. For that matter, I'm still not convinced how much Spags had to do with th e D vs. Reese upgrading the personnel and Collins moving to his natural position.

I don't necessarily agree that Wing outkicked the coverage. Lewis was right there when he fielded the punt and simple ran by him. After that, there was a group of about 3-4 Giants within range that didn't corral him.

In comment 13608917 David B. said:

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As they likely won't be giving Flowers OLT money on his next contract.

No shot Flowers gets a second contract with the NYG....

yet again this week. And telling things as they were, no fluff.
The one thing I thought you may have given JPP a pass on, and maybe I'm incorrect, but for much of at least the first half Wagner seemed to make some blatant holds on JPPs jersey and the refs only called it once IIRC.
Other than that it was a winnable game if they only made 2-3 key plays from a variety to choose from: the pass on the pick, the hold at the 1, the drop by Marshall, the return, etc.
The upside: it was a team effort..... actually pretty much a team cluster@#$%.

I watched Fluker closely in pre-season. Not an expert, but he seemed to do a good job at guard, particularly in straight on power running. Why don't they give him a chance? Especially in short yardage? Is he that bad?

It would be interesting to put him with Flowers on the RIGHT side and Pugh at LT with either Hart, Jones, or Jerry on the left.

I think we would have a decent chance when running right. Power at the point of attack will get push and make it possible for left side guys to pull and lead.

Write ups like this are really helpful .

I'm with you. I get it, Fluker has flaws. They all do. I don't know what they've all seen in practice, but across four preseason games, which is supposed to be a more meaningful look, Fluker simply got the job done.

I realize it's a passing league, but when you compound worst in league running game with other issues, we're seeing the results. A running game just might be the spark this offense needs. We can't continue playing with 2 downs to opponents 3. Fluker has some redeeming qualities that can help this offense.

I would go with: Pugh, Jerry, Richburg, Fluker, Flowers. That's a pedigree of 3 1st a second and a 3rd round pick. There are serious flaws but there are also some redeeming qualities. You can run right which opens things up. You protect Eli's blind side, reducing your likelihood of the fatal strip sack. Give help to the right when you need it, and away we go.

Insert Darkwa, get a respectable running game and observe how much more effective the offense looks.

And help the defense.

Back into the playbook. We have weapons who can do some damage off if that.

Isn't just about the Pass pro. Say he's just a stop gap, or if he is only as good as Flowers. The benefit to the run game of having our most powerful offensive lineman in a position to lead block in the run game should be a drastic improvement over Hart, Pugh or Jerry at either position on the right side.

A more consistent run game will help pass pro more than any currently available OT on the market or likely trade haul and it is something we may be able to manufacture with the pieces available on the roster.

Whether that will happen is anyone's guess but I have to admit I am sick and tired of watching a team beat its head against the wall for 16 games while it waits for the off season to fix any problems. Lack of in season adjustments has been a cancer to this team going back well into the Coughlin years and I have to say I am shocked to see it not just continue but actually get worse under Macadoo.

How much worse can it be

Wheeler. Pugh. Richburgh. Fluker. Flowers
Run the ball right and ram it down the Eagles throats
Running the ball is the only way to keep Eli alive

I learn a great deal from you folks. Away from game day horrors,
you guys are pretty damned smart and insightful. I lurk to learn.
But I don't see a win until SF in November.
and the formula for the Giant stink is really simple:

Reeses pieces ==== McAdoodoo.

Yup.....that's my contribution.....back to the shadows.

In comment 13608813 bluesince56 said:

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by this organization is a disgrace. Eli gave us two Super-bowls, has given he's heart and soul to this team and John Mara doesn't step in. The stubbornness of this Head Coach is going to get Eli hurt. As a Giants fan for over sixty years I have never been so angry about this team.

Look Eli has to have his hips perpendicular to the line of scrimmage and a full step into the ball to be accurate. Parallel hips, floaters. Off balance gopher killers. His footwork is glacial. His arm strength poor. That's why he can't power the ball from any but the ideal stance.

In comment 13609051 mauiyankee said:

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In comment 13608813 bluesince56 said: Quote: by this organization is a disgrace. Eli gave us two Super-bowls, has given he's heart and soul to this team and John Mara doesn't step in. The stubbornness of this Head Coach is going to get Eli hurt. As a Giants fan for over sixty years I have never been so angry about this team. Look Eli has to have his hips perpendicular to the line of scrimmage and a full step into the ball to be accurate. Parallel hips, floaters. Off balance gopher killers. His footwork is glacial. His arm strength poor. That's why he can't power the ball from any but the ideal stance.

so much for back to the shadows, eh?

Pugh, Jones, Richburg, Fluker, Flowers, Ellison

Smith, Darkwa

playing ANY position on the line is a waste of time.

I realize we do not have the chess pieces to replace them now. But until we do, we are fatally flawed as a team

If you want to debate how we won 11 games last year with them, I am happy to do so.

But let's get real fans...

Good review but I can't understand the use of Ellison. He as signed to big money with a reputation as a tough football player and very good blocker. Why isn't he on the field more often helping Flowers by chipping and then running his route? He appears to have good hands,and runs with the ball like Donnell didn't. I'd rather the Giants rotate Shepard,Engram and Marshall more to get Ellison on the field. We need more physicality upfront and Ellison in the passing and running game.

Did the review suggest it?

This is what is needed. He is simply overmatched. An easy win for the other team.

Any idea of moving him to RT is a joke. He'll get abused here too. He can't handle it.

No player in the NFL is having this type of negative impact on a team. Nobody hurts a team more. The guy should be moved to backup G and it should happen now.

Did the review suggest it?

This is what is needed. He is simply overmatched. An easy win for the other team.

Any idea of moving him to RT is a joke. He'll get abused here too. He can't handle it.

No player in the NFL is having this type of negative impact on a team. Nobody hurts a team more. The guy should be moved to backup G and it should happen now.

Did the review suggest it?

This is what is needed. He is simply overmatched. An easy win for the other team. Guys have career years in one half vs this guy.

Any idea of moving him to RT is a joke. He'll get abused here too. He can't handle it.

No player in the NFL is having this type of negative impact on a team. Nobody hurts a team more. The guy should be moved to backup G and it should happen now.

How do you know? ESPN did a great job at halftime showing that receivers were covered. There was nobody to throw the ball to. Go back to the Dallas game. People keep saying Eli should have thrown it to Marshall in the end zone. He could have but he was going through his progressions. He went to his second read where supposedly Engram was open and by the time he looked there he got destroyed. 3 DL got to Eli. I am pretty sure they only rushed three and all three got there. Even if they rushed 4, 3 still got to him. So, to the naked eye, it is easy for people to say he should have thrown the ball to Marshall. Well, no shit. But that is only because we know the result of him looking for his second read. People want Eli to just throw to his first read. So, if that is the case then have 9 players block for him and have one receiver go out on a route. This offense is all about timing and rhythm. Eli is going through his reads but can't because of the less than 2 to 3 seconds of protection. Eli isn't perfect. He has been off on some throws but can we stop with him holding the ball too long shit? Do any of you really think Eli is going to hold the ball any longer than he has to behind this OL? People criticize him for rushing throws because he doesn't have enough time now people are criticizing him for holding it too long. It doesn't make sense.

and get something going with the running game. The sad state of the protection is teams are getting pressure rushing just 4 and shutting down the run with only the front 7. That leaves the numbers are stacked against our playmakers.

Getting a running game changes this dynamic completely.

There is a maddening stubbornness with this team once they make up their mind about players.

In comment 13609176 UberAlias said:

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There is a maddening stubbornness with this team once they make up their mind about players.

Totally agree and one of the many criticisms of Mcadoo as an offensive coach. Whats his identity aside from trying to get Eli killed? He shows little to no creativity and doesn't scheme effectively to get his playmakers the ball in space.

As Sy pointed out, Mcadoo has been in charge of a bad offense since he got here.

Changes need to be made

More Vereen- totally agree
Less or no Flowers-- we all agree on this
Move Pugh to LT and see how it goes.
Give Darkwa more carries also
Give Ellison more plays, use 2 TE's more.

I'm with you. Flowers needs to be benched. I agree with you that Flowers will have the same problems at right tackle. The last time I checked the left defensive end has the same right to rush the passer as the right defensive end. Flowers lack of ability will not improve by switching sides.