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ESPN's NFL Now just had a stat:

Mark C : 9/20/2017 1:50 pm
The Giants offense has been in 11 personnel on 91% of snaps so far this season.

The next most frequent use of that formation has been 74% (Miami Dolphins); the league average is 59%.

Does anybody else think this has at least something to do with the utter ineptness of our OL? Defenses must know what's coming on virtually every play.

I mean, are you freaking kidding me? Didn't they draft a pass catching TE in the first round and sign Marshall so that they could finally show some different looks and feature something more than quick slants by OBJ?

To me, this is a major call-out of McAdoo and Sullivan.
Last year it was 96%  
Britt in VA : 9/20/2017 1:51 pm : link
.
For the umpteenth time..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/20/2017 1:53 pm : link
it is the personnel package - not the same formation.

I'm sure this isn't ideal, but way too many people act as if we are lining up the same 91% of the time.

Why does this have to continually be pointed out?
I thought  
I Love Clams Casino : 9/20/2017 2:06 pm : link
we always had 11 guys on the field? No?


HA!
anyway you cut it.....  
BillKo : 9/20/2017 2:09 pm : link
people on here were saying if you think the Giants haven't spent all off season stressing two TE's and FB more, to not only help the OL but also protect Eli, then we weren't paying attention.

Two games in I see our QB getting the crap beat out of him.............
Can that really be true?  
robbieballs2003 : 9/20/2017 2:15 pm : link
.
Good thing we kept a FB and a blocking TE on the roster  
GiantsRage2007 : 9/20/2017 2:18 pm : link
Oh and 3 RB too

to sit on the sidelines? Lovely.
He's waiting for the playoff run  
family progtitioner : 9/20/2017 2:20 pm : link
to unleash the 2 TE monster sets
I call bullshit  
giants#1 : 9/20/2017 2:20 pm : link
vs Dallas 57 total snaps:
Engram 48 snaps
Ellison 19 snaps
Smith 8 snaps
Adams 3 snaps
Total: 78 snaps

*Assuming at least 1 TE was out there for every snap, they had 19 total snaps or 33% of the plays where they were NOT in 11 personnel.

vs Detroit 56 total snaps:
Engram 43 snaps
Ellison 22 snaps
Smith 4 snaps
Adams 1 snap
Total: 70 snaps

So 14 total snaps or 25% of the plays where they were NOT in 11 personnel.

Snap counts via Pro-Football-Reference
RE: For the umpteenth time..  
robbieballs2003 : 9/20/2017 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13608564 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
it is the personnel package - not the same formation.

I'm sure this isn't ideal, but way too many people act as if we are lining up the same 91% of the time.

Why does this have to continually be pointed out?


It is a big deal. Defenses match against personnel grouping. If we are in one grouping 90+% of the time then it makes it too easy for the defense to prepare for us. Defensive coordinators have mentioned this before. I think it was Mike Zimmer who said that he looked at his play card for the week and thought he was missing something because it was so small with how to prepare for us. If you are in one grouping you spend the majority of the week preparing for that one set. The week is very limited now so the more you do the more time is wasted going over more grouping and hence more formations. There is a reason Belichick runs many different groupings. There is no defending running one grouping almost all the time. The only defense is that it is our best one but that doesn't hold weight because we are making our best grouping more difficult to run when defenses are prepared for what we will throw at them. That is like being a pitcher at the major league level and saying my best pitch is my fastball so I am going to throw it 90+% of the time. It could be the best fastball in the league but if everybody knows it is coming it is less effective. Now, we don't have the best "fastball" in the league. We have a mediocre fastball at best. What will happen?
RE: I call bullshit  
robbieballs2003 : 9/20/2017 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13608600 giants#1 said:
Quote:
vs Dallas 57 total snaps:
Engram 48 snaps
Ellison 19 snaps
Smith 8 snaps
Adams 3 snaps
Total: 78 snaps

*Assuming at least 1 TE was out there for every snap, they had 19 total snaps or 33% of the plays where they were NOT in 11 personnel.

vs Detroit 56 total snaps:
Engram 43 snaps
Ellison 22 snaps
Smith 4 snaps
Adams 1 snap
Total: 70 snaps

So 14 total snaps or 25% of the plays where they were NOT in 11 personnel.

Snap counts via Pro-Football-Reference


The only thing I can think of is if they are counting Engram as a WR.
RE: RE: I call bullshit  
giants#1 : 9/20/2017 2:32 pm : link
In comment 13608608 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 13608600 giants#1 said:


Quote:


vs Dallas 57 total snaps:
Engram 48 snaps
Ellison 19 snaps
Smith 8 snaps
Adams 3 snaps
Total: 78 snaps

*Assuming at least 1 TE was out there for every snap, they had 19 total snaps or 33% of the plays where they were NOT in 11 personnel.

vs Detroit 56 total snaps:
Engram 43 snaps
Ellison 22 snaps
Smith 4 snaps
Adams 1 snap
Total: 70 snaps

So 14 total snaps or 25% of the plays where they were NOT in 11 personnel.

Snap counts via Pro-Football-Reference



The only thing I can think of is if they are counting Engram as a WR.


That's nonsense if true. Is Jimmy Graham a WR? Jordan Reed?

And it's not like he isn't lining up at TE or even in the backfield (was lined up at FB on his TD).
RE: RE: For the umpteenth time..  
BillKo : 9/20/2017 2:49 pm : link
In comment 13608603 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 13608564 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


it is the personnel package - not the same formation.

I'm sure this isn't ideal, but way too many people act as if we are lining up the same 91% of the time.

Why does this have to continually be pointed out?



It is a big deal. Defenses match against personnel grouping. If we are in one grouping 90+% of the time then it makes it too easy for the defense to prepare for us. Defensive coordinators have mentioned this before. I think it was Mike Zimmer who said that he looked at his play card for the week and thought he was missing something because it was so small with how to prepare for us. If you are in one grouping you spend the majority of the week preparing for that one set. The week is very limited now so the more you do the more time is wasted going over more grouping and hence more formations. There is a reason Belichick runs many different groupings. There is no defending running one grouping almost all the time. The only defense is that it is our best one but that doesn't hold weight because we are making our best grouping more difficult to run when defenses are prepared for what we will throw at them. That is like being a pitcher at the major league level and saying my best pitch is my fastball so I am going to throw it 90+% of the time. It could be the best fastball in the league but if everybody knows it is coming it is less effective. Now, we don't have the best "fastball" in the league. We have a mediocre fastball at best. What will happen?


Great point.
But you are again confusing things..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/20/2017 2:53 pm : link
Quote:
There is no defending running one grouping almost all the time. The only defense is that it is our best one but that doesn't hold weight because we are making our best grouping more difficult to run when defenses are prepared for what we will throw at them. That is like being a pitcher at the major league level and saying my best pitch is my fastball so I am going to throw it 90+% of the time. It could be the best fastball in the league but if everybody knows it is coming it is less effective.


The 11 personnel is the most common package for 29 of the 32 NFL teams. There are 7 NFL teams who run it over 70% of the time. Last year - it was run league wide on 60.4% of the plays.

It's simply the nomenclature for the personnel group - not the plays that can be run or the variations you can do with it. You can be under center, in the shotgun, the pistol, whatever.

How this simplifies the defenses, I don't know. By the way - only two teams last year saw their offensive numbers drop in the 11

In baseball terms(all the analogies suck), it would be like playing with the same guys on the field instead of pinch hitting.

Again - I think the Giants overuse the package, but let's not act like it makes us one-dimensional or is a snap for DC's to scheme against.
expanding on my earlier numbers  
giants#1 : 9/20/2017 3:06 pm : link
Assuming there were no plays with 0 TEs, then there were at most 33 (out of 113) plays in which the Giants used 2+ TEs/FBs. If they never used more than 2 TE/FB at the same time, that would mean they were in 11 personnel 71% of the time.

Taking it to the extreme, we can assume that every time either Adams or Smith were on the field, they were the 3rd TE/FB. That still means that at most, the Giants were in 11 personnel 85% of the time. That's still not enough variation, especially since Ellison/Adams would likely help with the running and protection issues, but it means the stat in the OP is utter bullshit.
Yeah I heard this stat too  
djm : 9/20/2017 3:30 pm : link
It's horrifying. I'm almost at the point where I'll never believe in mcadoo again because of his insistence on running this 11 personnel all the time. It's mind boggling to me. Last year was bad enough by Ok fine, the TEs were bad, no FB, etc... what's the reasoning now? There isn't any. It's madness.

He's in over his head.
Here's the key stat  
djm : 9/20/2017 3:33 pm : link
Ellison has seen approx. 36% of all snaps the last two games. Get that? 36%.

He's barely playing despite Beckham being hurt. Wrap your head around that. 20 million for what?
You know what  
blueblood'11 : 9/20/2017 3:53 pm : link
Those stats are all well and good but somethkng is tipping off defenses because half the time when Eli has time no one is open. And the other half of the time defenses have no fear and pin their ears back like as if they were in the huddle with the Giants when they call the play.
RE: But you are again confusing things..  
robbieballs2003 : 9/20/2017 3:56 pm : link
In comment 13608673 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


There is no defending running one grouping almost all the time. The only defense is that it is our best one but that doesn't hold weight because we are making our best grouping more difficult to run when defenses are prepared for what we will throw at them. That is like being a pitcher at the major league level and saying my best pitch is my fastball so I am going to throw it 90+% of the time. It could be the best fastball in the league but if everybody knows it is coming it is less effective.



The 11 personnel is the most common package for 29 of the 32 NFL teams. There are 7 NFL teams who run it over 70% of the time. Last year - it was run league wide on 60.4% of the plays.

It's simply the nomenclature for the personnel group - not the plays that can be run or the variations you can do with it. You can be under center, in the shotgun, the pistol, whatever.

How this simplifies the defenses, I don't know. By the way - only two teams last year saw their offensive numbers drop in the 11

In baseball terms(all the analogies suck), it would be like playing with the same guys on the field instead of pinch hitting.

Again - I think the Giants overuse the package, but let's not act like it makes us one-dimensional or is a snap for DC's to scheme against.


I am not confusing anything. I have coached. I have coached defense. I have coached at both the high school and college levels. I never said teams cannot run multiple formations or different plays out of the same formation. What I said is that preparing for a team that runs one personnel grouping 90+% of the time makes it much easier to prepare for. I don't care if the majority of teams run that formation the majority of the time. What else do I have to prepare for? What other players have to be ready to have a key role? What matchups am I concerned about? What players on the opposing team do I have to worry about? What plays, formations, and groupings does my opponent run in certain situations? The prep work that goes into preparing for us or maybe should I say that went into preparing for us last year was minimal compared to other teams meaning players get more reps preparing against our tendencies.

Don't take my word for it. Go back and read the opposing DCs transcripts or whatever it was where one said that he thought he didn't do enough because there wasn't that much to prepare for. I forgot who it was.
RE: RE: But you are again confusing things..  
EricJ : 9/20/2017 4:27 pm : link
In comment 13608793 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:

I am not confusing anything. I have coached. I have coached defense. I have coached at both the high school and college levels. I never said teams cannot run multiple formations or different plays out of the same formation. What I said is that preparing for a team that runs one personnel grouping 90+% of the time makes it much easier to prepare for. I don't care if the majority of teams run that formation the majority of the time. What else do I have to prepare for? What other players have to be ready to have a key role? What matchups am I concerned about? What players on the opposing team do I have to worry about? What plays, formations, and groupings does my opponent run in certain situations? The prep work that goes into preparing for us or maybe should I say that went into preparing for us last year was minimal compared to other teams meaning players get more reps preparing against our tendencies.

Don't take my word for it. Go back and read the opposing DCs transcripts or whatever it was where one said that he thought he didn't do enough because there wasn't that much to prepare for. I forgot who it was.


I agree with you Robbie. The personnel changes will then trigger changes on the defensive side depending upon who comes in. Make them shuttle guys in and out. Make them think about what we may do with 4 wide and no TE....or whatever we decide to throw out there. We should be running guys in who create matchup problems for the defense. If we added another speedy WR to the formation then how likely will the safeties want to creep up to support the run on that play?
RE: Last year it was 96%  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/20/2017 4:31 pm : link
In comment 13608563 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.

Actually, it was 96% when Chris Simms called them out, but I think they finished at 90%. In other words, they are ahead of last year if that's true.

That said, that's really unfathomable. I also don't think it can be correct - just looking at snap counts for Engram, Ellison, Adams and Smith, I'd peg it at more like 75%
RE: I call bullshit  
Eli Wilson : 9/20/2017 4:54 pm : link
In comment 13608600 giants#1 said:
Quote:
vs Dallas 57 total snaps:
Engram 48 snaps
Ellison 19 snaps
Smith 8 snaps
Adams 3 snaps
Total: 78 snaps

*Assuming at least 1 TE was out there for every snap, they had 19 total snaps or 33% of the plays where they were NOT in 11 personnel.

vs Detroit 56 total snaps:
Engram 43 snaps
Ellison 22 snaps
Smith 4 snaps
Adams 1 snap
Total: 70 snaps

So 14 total snaps or 25% of the plays where they were NOT in 11 personnel.

Snap counts via Pro-Football-Reference


Adams had 1 snap and on that one snap had a nice 30+ yard catch. Makes sense to just leave him on the bench.
RE: RE: I call bullshit  
robbieballs2003 : 9/20/2017 5:17 pm : link
In comment 13608608 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 13608600 giants#1 said:


Quote:


vs Dallas 57 total snaps:
Engram 48 snaps
Ellison 19 snaps
Smith 8 snaps
Adams 3 snaps
Total: 78 snaps

*Assuming at least 1 TE was out there for every snap, they had 19 total snaps or 33% of the plays where they were NOT in 11 personnel.

vs Detroit 56 total snaps:
Engram 43 snaps
Ellison 22 snaps
Smith 4 snaps
Adams 1 snap
Total: 70 snaps

So 14 total snaps or 25% of the plays where they were NOT in 11 personnel.

Snap counts via Pro-Football-Reference



The only thing I can think of is if they are counting Engram as a WR.


Oh, duh. Could these snaps include special teams play as well or are the individual players' snap counts already broken down by just offensive snaps?
It looks like those are the offensive snaps but there were  
robbieballs2003 : 9/20/2017 5:20 pm : link
58 offensive snaps not 56.
My bad, there were 56 offensive snaps.  
robbieballs2003 : 9/20/2017 5:22 pm : link
My eyes are failing me.
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