Giants have run the ball on consecutive plays TWICE

since in most cases, Eli has the chance to audible from pass to run and vice versa. I agree that more consecutive runs should probably be attempted. Especially when there was some success running on first down. It would help to open up play-action and makes us less predictable overall.

Having said that, Eli might be the one who deserves the blame here. Might be.

I started this thread after the game.
Link - ( New Window )

Run Run Pass...Punt

In comment 13609617 superspynyg said:

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Run Run Pass...Punt

The days of run pass pass punt aren't better?

They averages 1.5 yards a carry. You are advocating doing this more?

He's the main reason they Won 11 games. But now it's either the OL or Eli.

But hey. He's hip. He showed a clip to the team from GOT

The fact that he runs 11 all he time says it all. He also doesn't want to use a FB. Why he kept 4 TEs and a FB os a mystery. Engram is also pretty much a WR. .

So all you guys who think it's stupid to run more disagree w OHara and DAVE D. I'll go w them

In comment 13609624 UberAlias said:

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They averages 1.5 yards a carry. You are advocating doing this more?

Well, we're one of the worst offenses in all of football right now without trying to establish the run. Not sure how it can get worse by actually trying to commit to running the football a bit.

I hear you, and I do agree that establishing the run or a run-like game is one of the keys to fixing the offense. But it is more than simply calling more running plays which we have several years history to show how ineffective we are at doing it.

I am a huge believer in injecting Fluker into the starting line up. Warts and all. He showed well in the preseason and this is one guy who is actually an asset in the run game. I am also a believer in seeing a lot more Darkwa and Vereen. Darkwa is not perfect, but he is a much better fit as a runner for our given situation.

Vereen as well can be beneficial not only as a runner but in short passing game which can effectively serve as a running game.

In comment 13609660 UberAlias said:

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I hear you, and I do agree that establishing the run or a run-like game is one of the keys to fixing the offense. But it is more than simply calling more running plays which we have several years history to show how ineffective we are at doing it. I am a huge believer in injecting Fluker into the starting line up. Warts and all. He showed well in the preseason and this is one guy who is actually an asset in the run game. I am also a believer in seeing a lot more Darkwa and Vereen. Darkwa is not perfect, but he is a much better fit as a runner for our given situation. Vereen as well can be beneficial not only as a runner but in short passing game which can effectively serve as a running game.

I would agree on all counts.

I think this would be a legitimate gripe if they were running well, but when we can't run against 5 or 6 in the box...

The execution of the plays is the problem.

In comment 13609624 UberAlias said:

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They averages 1.5 yards a carry. You are advocating doing this more?

I think the point is that the defense can bet the next play will be a pass making it that much easier to defend THAT play..

In comment 13609670 Go Terps said:

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I think this would be a legitimate gripe if they were running well, but when we can't run against 5 or 6 in the box... The execution of the plays is the problem.

There's no way to know if we can run well or not because we never actually try to establish it.

We run on 1st down and whether we gain 3-4 yards or lose one, we immediately bail and put Eli in the shotgun on the next play where he often gets sacked or throws an incompletion.

The playcalling is contributing to this pattern which is resulting in a lot of 3 and outs.

If teams want to keep a light box, we have to keep running at it. Not just one time and then immediately to right back to the pass game.

And the answer is we can't.

Until the offensive line can string together some plays where everyone does his job, it won't matter what plays are called.

I've been saying for two years that the offensive line is shit, and needed to be a higher priority. Well, here we are.

In comment 13609614 arcarsenal said:

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I started this thread after the game. Link - ( New Window )

apologies arc. didn't mean to steal your thread, was at the game so I wasn't on the forum much this weekend.

Saw it somewhere else and went through the drive charts because I couldn't believe my eyes. Agree with what you've said. You HAVE to try to establish the run.

You cannot just abandon an entire dimension of offense.

In comment 13609718 Go Terps said:

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And the answer is we can't. Until the offensive line can string together some plays where everyone does his job, it won't matter what plays are called. I've been saying for two years that the offensive line is shit, and needed to be a higher priority. Well, here we are.

Actually, you've been saying it since the 2008 game in Cleveland if I recall correctly.

In comment 13609729 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 13609718 Go Terps said: Quote: And the answer is we can't. Until the offensive line can string together some plays where everyone does his job, it won't matter what plays are called. I've been saying for two years that the offensive line is shit, and needed to be a higher priority. Well, here we are. Actually, you've been saying it since the 2008 game in Cleveland if I recall correctly.

That line was the fucking Hogs compared to these guys.

The 2008 line was really good, but it was eye opening how Shaun Rogers was blowing up the inside of the line and ruining the entire game.

The line has been allowed to degrade since 2007/2008. It is completely fair to question this front office regarding the offensive line related both to philosophy and talent evaluation.

As our franchise quarterback aged the offensive line should have been THE organizational priority. It has not been and we're seeing the result.

but don't be under any illusions that running the ball more is the solution to their problems. The running game stinks.

Plus, the defense has not been great and the Giants have been behind. That leads to more passes.

Of formation and play calling. Have we passed yet when Eli is under center? I have only seen us pass out of the shotgun. We do run out of the shotgun too but I have yet to see us pass or at least that I remember with Eli under center. Anyone have the same observation?

when given the opportunity last year. We just pass on every play it seems like.

in the league

Cowbell

What you hear is hey Orleans ran the ball for 11 yards there for a first down, why didn't he go back to what worked on that plane run it again There's a lot of variables here but instead of thinking about it in terms of a run or pass I would prefer to execute a play that gets another 10 yards in another first down. The line is so unpredictable, the running game is so unpredictable, you are so predictable, and the wide receivers are unpredictable in terms of which passes they are actually going to catch -- it's hard to say you should run it more twice in a row when the run seems to be working. I would much rather have the coaching staff focus on how can we move the ball down the field and bigger chunks most of the time and where we finding them? Obviously easier said than done. But I would definitely not advocate running a no huddle offense and run it twice in a row behind the worst run blocking line in the league

But decided to do it when there was 7 mins left in the 4th qtr and down two TDs to do it. lol

Eli's sacks count as runs.

In comment 13609718 Go Terps said:

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And the answer is we can't. Until the offensive line can string together some plays where everyone does his job, it won't matter what plays are called. I've been saying for two years that the offensive line is shit, and needed to be a higher priority. Well, here we are.

We're never going to be a "good" running team, but that doesn't mean you just completely neglect it. What we're doing offensively right now is about as bad as anything we've seen in the Eli era - so it makes little sense to keep doing it.

If you even gain 3 yards on a first down carry (which, has happened - not all of them have been stopped for no gain or a loss), run the ball again and try to set up a 3rd and 5 or shorter. Instead, we put Eli in the shotgun constantly and wind up with an incompletion or a sack resulting in 3rd and long or 3rd and forever and the drives often stall right then and there.

I don't think you can run an offense like this where you literally just don't run the football at all. It gives defenses a major advantage.

And I'm pretty sure most fans have been criticizing the OL play for longer than 2 years now.. so, I'm not sure you really uncovered anything there. This line has been bad/awful for about 5-6 years now.

I was the guy saying we should have spent the money on the line when everyone else was lauding Reese for spending his entire nut on the defense. We had a shot after the 2015 season to rectify the offensive line and we passed it up.

I would like to see more runs too, but they simply do not block well enough in any area IMO to call for anything specific in terms of play calling. I think the line has been so bad that it wouldn't matter if we ran the ball 40 times.

The team can not function with the line playing this badly. I don't think there is any way. Hopefully they play better from here on out.

In comment 13609670 Go Terps said:

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I think this would be a legitimate gripe if they were running well, but when we can't run against 5 or 6 in the box... The execution of the plays is the problem.

Also the formations. I don't necessarily care about actual play calls either. Getting the right players on the field and in the right spot is another story...

I don't think you'll really find anyone who was against the idea of upgrading the OL - Osemele, in particular, was a guy NYG should have been much more aggressive in pursuing when he was available.

The defensive upgrades were great - they worked wonders for this team last year.

It seems like the OL is actually getting worse from year to year.. which is what is most troublesome.

Some of the numbers from 2015 were misleading, but unless my memory is totally deceiving me, this looked like an NFL offense that year with most of the same pieces on the line. I'm not really sure why, but this group seems to collectively be getting worse.

It's getting worse because there is 2 years of film telling the entire league to play soft coverage and not to blitz. Why blitz a guy who can diagnose it in his sleep when you can collapse the pocket the 4 and sometimes 3 guys?

1. Get Eli off his spot
2. Flood the passing areas with defenders

Remember Beckham's first couple years? Off the top of my head he had 3 or 4 60+ yard TDs where he caught the ball with no defender even in the screen shot. But last year that turned into 8 yard slants he turned up field. Why do you think that is?

We saw it Monday on the fake reverse. Because the Lions didn't have to commit extra rushers they bracketed Beckham with a corner and two safeties. Result: coverage sack. People blamed Eli for it, but that is actually still on the offensive line...because if they were any good at their jobs there is no fucking way the Lions would be able to rush 3 or 4 guys and consistently collapse the pocket.

Eli, and by extension McAdoo as the play caller, have been put in an impossible situation by this offensive line. An absolutely impossible situation.

I agree that's a large part of it - but we still seemed to move the ball quite often late in games in 2015 when we were playing from behind. Defenses were sitting back in coverage knowing we were passing and we were still able to eat up some chunks of yards.

The Carolina game comes to mind - we were down big and got all the way back against what was more or less prevent defense. And that was a good football team - they went 15-1 and got all the way to the SB.

We scored 30 points or more 7 times that year. And a lot of the reason was because our defense was absolutely awful and we had to play catch up. Teams knew that and even though we were very one-dimensional, we were still able to move the football.

It seems strange to me that we can't move the ball in ANY situation so far this year. Early in games with the score tied, down 2-3 scores.. doesn't seem to matter.

In comment 13610037 B in ALB said:

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Eli's sacks count as runs.

Best line of the thread. Nice job.

Those who say we can't run the ball need to look more closely at the stats. The offense is predictable right now - we get about a rushing attempt for each first down we manage until the clock has us in must-pass situations.

Here's the runs per drive and results vs. Dallas through the first half.
First drive (3 & out)
1-10 - Perkins for 3
Second drive (3 & out)
no carries
Third drive (one first downs)
1-10 - Perkins for 3
1-10 - Perkins for 3
2-7 - Perkins for 3
Fourth drive (one first downs)
1-10 - Darkwa for 12
Fifth drive (3 & out - this was the infamous 22 second drive which gave the ball back to Dallas with enough time for them to go 51 yards and kick a FG to go up 16-0)
no carries

So, there were NO carries for a loss. The shortest gain was 3 yards. But we weren't committed to the run. By the way, the Giants wouldn't go on to have a carry for a loss until the fourth quarter when Darkwa was stopped for a 2 yard loss. It was also the only carry for negative or no yards on the day. Every Perkins carry gained positive yards.

So, it seems fair to criticize the lack of commitment to the run game in Dallas when it was at least a little productive in the few carries he had.

In Detroit, the situation was a little different. In the first half the Giants did have two carries for 0 or negative yds. However, check out the predictability of run calls. When do defenses need to play the run? Not on second down.

First drive (3 & out)
1-10 - Perkins for 0 yds
3-13 (shotgun) - Vereen for 4 yds
Second drive (3 first downs & TD)
1-10 - Shepard right end for 12 yds
1-10 - Perkins for -1 yds
Third drive (1 play - INT)
no carries
Fourth drive (1 first down)
1-10 - Darkwa for 11 yds
Fifth drive (3 & out)
1-10 - Perkins for 4 yds
Sixth drive (one snap - ran out clock intentionally)
1-10 - Vereen for 8 yds

In the entire game they never ran from under center on second down, only when in shotgun once the defenses started playing prevent.

Here's an interesting fact: The Giants have only run on 2nd down four times total in their first two games. Run/Pass ratio on 2nd down? 4/31

Criticisms about run/pass play selection and commitment to the run are fair.


Now, where people get things wrong is by blaming exclusively and completely McAdoo for the run/pass mix. It's my understanding that Eli has the ability to choose run/pass at the LOS, which would mean it's his fault primarily for virtually never running the ball on 2nd down. I'd love for a beat to ask Eli about this statistic and what his role is in play selection.

In comment 13610121 Dan in the Springs said:

Quote:

In comment 13610037 B in ALB said: Quote: Eli's sacks count as runs. Best line of the thread. Nice job. Those who say we can't run the ball need to look more closely at the stats. The offense is predictable right now - we get about a rushing attempt for each first down we manage until the clock has us in must-pass situations. Here's the runs per drive and results vs. Dallas through the first half. First drive (3 & out) 1-10 - Perkins for 3 Second drive (3 & out) no carries Third drive (one first downs) 1-10 - Perkins for 3 1-10 - Perkins for 3 2-7 - Perkins for 3 Fourth drive (one first downs) 1-10 - Darkwa for 12 Fifth drive (3 & out - this was the infamous 22 second drive which gave the ball back to Dallas with enough time for them to go 51 yards and kick a FG to go up 16-0) no carries So, there were NO carries for a loss. The shortest gain was 3 yards. But we weren't committed to the run. By the way, the Giants wouldn't go on to have a carry for a loss until the fourth quarter when Darkwa was stopped for a 2 yard loss. It was also the only carry for negative or no yards on the day. Every Perkins carry gained positive yards. So, it seems fair to criticize the lack of commitment to the run game in Dallas when it was at least a little productive in the few carries he had. In Detroit, the situation was a little different. In the first half the Giants did have two carries for 0 or negative yds. However, check out the predictability of run calls. When do defenses need to play the run? Not on second down. First drive (3 & out) 1-10 - Perkins for 0 yds 3-13 (shotgun) - Vereen for 4 yds Second drive (3 first downs & TD) 1-10 - Shepard right end for 12 yds 1-10 - Perkins for -1 yds Third drive (1 play - INT) no carries Fourth drive (1 first down) 1-10 - Darkwa for 11 yds Fifth drive (3 & out) 1-10 - Perkins for 4 yds Sixth drive (one snap - ran out clock intentionally) 1-10 - Vereen for 8 yds In the entire game they never ran from under center on second down, only when in shotgun once the defenses started playing prevent. Here's an interesting fact: The Giants have only run on 2nd down four times total in their first two games. Run/Pass ratio on 2nd down? 4/31 Criticisms about run/pass play selection and commitment to the run are fair. Now, where people get things wrong is by blaming exclusively and completely McAdoo for the run/pass mix. It's my understanding that Eli has the ability to choose run/pass at the LOS, which would mean it's his fault primarily for virtually never running the ball on 2nd down. I'd love for a beat to ask Eli about this statistic and what his role is in play selection.

Good post.

This is exactly what I've been getting at the last few days.

3 yards a carry isn't great - but if you gain 3 yards on a 1st down carry, why can't you run again on 2nd down? We go right to the pass almost EVERY SINGLE TIME.

But at this point it can't hurt .
Not gonna throw this offense at the feet of Eli this offensive line is the problem and it doesn't help with marginal talent and skill at the RB position either .
This offense even through pre-season looked about the same as last year . Can't expect cohesion without real time game
experience . Instead of the same routine during the pre-season about how long the starters should play should have gone out the window this year they showed nothing going into the season and it;s yet to even show a pulse .

In comment 13610127 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

3 yards a carry isn't great - but if you gain 3 yards on a 1st down carry, why can't you run again on 2nd down? We go right to the pass almost EVERY SINGLE TIME.

And you're right to make this point. But many are drawing the conclusion that it's McAdoo's fault we keep running on second down. They seem to think that if someone else were calling the plays we wouldn't pass so much on second down.

I think it might be on Eli, and if so, it might be that defenses are dictating to Eli what to do on each down. They are tempting him to throw on 2nd down and then they are mostly successful defending the pass.

In comment 13610141 Dan in the Springs said:

Quote:

In comment 13610127 arcarsenal said: Quote: 3 yards a carry isn't great - but if you gain 3 yards on a 1st down carry, why can't you run again on 2nd down? We go right to the pass almost EVERY SINGLE TIME. And you're right to make this point. But many are drawing the conclusion that it's McAdoo's fault we keep running on second down. They seem to think that if someone else were calling the plays we wouldn't pass so much on second down. I think it might be on Eli, and if so, it might be that defenses are dictating to Eli what to do on each down. They are tempting him to throw on 2nd down and then they are mostly successful defending the pass.

Right - and it's a fair point. We really don't know.

Personally, for me, it's not necessarily a blame McAdoo thing. I don't know where the calls are coming from. But it's a trend that has become very easy to predict and needs to change. There's no doubt that teams have already noticed this and the Eagles are going to be looking for it again on Sunday.