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How can same OL regress from season to season?

D_Giants : 9/22/2017 2:44 am
As a multi-decade Giants fan, I don't recall seeing a more inept offensive unit than this one. The Giants have receiver quality that exceeds any receiving group I can recall. The most impressive RB, Darkwa, is sent in to make limited cameo appearances each game so that the HC's announced starter can Play. Any RB rhythm is impossible. And, of course, the OL, despite increasing experience and familiarity with one another, has become the weakest unit since Fran Tarkenton had to scramble for his life on weak NYG teams a half century ago. Eli is a great long ball guy whose dink and dunk passes are often poor throws.

Apparently, McAdoo brought Mike Solari over from Green Bay. Looking at Solari's resume on Wikipedia, it doesn't seem that he's been OL coach at any team for too long. What exactly is Solari doing--or not doing--to at least keep the OL from getting worse instead of better? Is Solari there because he's a good yes man? It's incomprehensible how the same unit is playing worse. Why is McAdoo so stubborn in keeping Flowers at LT (versus RT) and where is the TE and FB help? One wonders if McAdoo sees a different reality out there, but his reality has created an offensive unit averaging a puddly 13 points over the equivalent of half a season.
Historical point of conflict  
RetroJint : 9/22/2017 6:52 am : link
I don't think Tarkenton's lines were the worse. Sometimes Fran scrambled by choice because he threw better on the run. The really brutal offensive lines were from the mid to late seventies when the Giants recruited WFL refugees like Ralph Hill and Bill Ellenbogan.

Such is to digress. As to the regression, my guess is that these guys don't take enough pre-season snaps together. Add a HC's benign neglect of the running game. Complete the toxic mix with a fading quarterback whose paranoia feeds and amplifies the line's lack of identity. Where Solari fits in I cannot tell. But what is without doubt is Flowers played better his rookie season injured against a more difficult schedule than he did last season. Draw your own conclusions.
The 49er OL was good under Solari  
GeorgeAdams33 : 9/22/2017 6:59 am : link
It's on Reese for drafting poorly and signing castoff free agents out of desperation. He ignored the OL for too long being enamored with "playmakers" like Ramses Barden, Travis Beckhum, Jerrel Jernigan, & Adrien Robinson.

Reese convinced ownership that his players had awesome potential and that Coughlin wasn't playing them enough. TC was forced to get rid of Kevin Gilbride regardless of the fact that he'd helped us to win two Super Bowls. Coughlin was later shown the door. The same door that some idiots are now wanting to show Eli. Regardless of the fact that he's won two Super Bowl MVPs.

I would love to hire Scott Pioli & Dave Gettleman very very soon so that they can get to work and hit the ground running. Show that door to the folks who really do deserve to GTFO of town. Reese & Ross need to go. Chris Mara needs to be demoted and given an office in the basement. Get this train back on track.

If it were me I would fire McAdoo and bring in Kevin Gilbride Senior as HC to finish what he'd started.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/22/2017 7:03 am : link
The funny thing with Flowers is that a lot of people thought he was playing alright near the end of last year, mostly due to Pugh being back in the lineup.

I have no idea what the hell has happened. His play has been beyond our worst nightmare.
Moving forward I think we need to just blow it all up  
NYDCBlue : 9/22/2017 7:24 am : link
Some might say, we can slide Hart into RG, move Flowers over to RT and resign Pugh, leaving only a LT to be found in the draft or free agency, but are we sure Flowers can even handle RT? I am now to the point where I think we need to just let Pugh walk. It is nothing against him, but we have too many failed Tackles, and not enough guard positions to move them to.... So, we let Pugh walk, and slide Flowers over to LG. Then we let Hart and Jerry battle it out at RG. That leaves us with the task of finding two tackles. Once for the left, and one for the right side.... More work yes, but if we want to finally fix this line, it may be necessary.
I am all for letting Pugh walk  
GeorgeAdams33 : 9/22/2017 7:34 am : link
Richburg too.

I would use our top resources finally once and for all as we've heard about before. John Mara has called for it before and it has been ignored. Reese needs to go and we need to sign the best free agent Left Tackle on the market and the best free agent Left Guard on the market. Make a new veteran combo on the left protecting Eli's blind side. Sign a swing tackle who could possibly start on the right if Flowers can't candle it for some reason. Draft an OT in the first round and have him on deck as well. Start Jones at Center and Fluker at RG. Draft a Center and a Guard. Blow it up and start over, basically.
RE: Historical point of conflict  
Reb8thVA : 9/22/2017 7:34 am : link
In comment 13610381 RetroJint said:
Quote:
I don't think Tarkenton's lines were the worse. Sometimes Fran scrambled by choice because he threw better on the run. The really brutal offensive lines were from the mid to late seventies when the Giants recruited WFL refugees like Ralph Hill and Bill Ellenbogan.

Such is to digress. As to the regression, my guess is that these guys don't take enough pre-season snaps together. Add a HC's benign neglect of the running game. Complete the toxic mix with a fading quarterback whose paranoia feeds and amplifies the line's lack of identity. Where Solari fits in I cannot tell. But what is without doubt is Flowers played better his rookie season injured against a more difficult schedule than he did last season. Draw your own conclusions.


Where have you gone Gordon King? A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
RE: The 49er OL was good under Solari  
UConn4523 : 9/22/2017 7:40 am : link
In comment 13610383 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
It's on Reese for drafting poorly and signing castoff free agents out of desperation. He ignored the OL for too long being enamored with "playmakers" like Ramses Barden, Travis Beckhum, Jerrel Jernigan, & Adrien Robinson.

Reese convinced ownership that his players had awesome potential and that Coughlin wasn't playing them enough. TC was forced to get rid of Kevin Gilbride regardless of the fact that he'd helped us to win two Super Bowls. Coughlin was later shown the door. The same door that some idiots are now wanting to show Eli. Regardless of the fact that he's won two Super Bowl MVPs.

I would love to hire Scott Pioli & Dave Gettleman very very soon so that they can get to work and hit the ground running. Show that door to the folks who really do deserve to GTFO of town. Reese & Ross need to go. Chris Mara needs to be demoted and given an office in the basement. Get this train back on track.

If it were me I would fire McAdoo and bring in Kevin Gilbride Senior as HC to finish what he'd started.


Solid points but those mid round picks may or may not have been better spent on OL. That's hardly the reason anyone should be fired. The pattern I see more than anything else is the mid rounders aren't working out at the rate we need them to, regardless of position.

As for your Eli comment, I'm not ready to show him the door, but that door is closing. I see no reason to not move on from him after 2018 but maybe he bounces back and would sign for a much smaller deal.

The game is changing and we are behind the curve in the OL/QB changes. It happens.
RE: I am all for letting Pugh walk  
Reb8thVA : 9/22/2017 7:40 am : link
In comment 13610397 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
Richburg too.

I would use our top resources finally once and for all as we've heard about before. John Mara has called for it before and it has been ignored. Reese needs to go and we need to sign the best free agent Left Tackle on the market and the best free agent Left Guard on the market. Make a new veteran combo on the left protecting Eli's blind side. Sign a swing tackle who could possibly start on the right if Flowers can't candle it for some reason. Draft an OT in the first round and have him on deck as well. Start Jones at Center and Fluker at RG. Draft a Center and a Guard. Blow it up and start over, basically.


There are not many better options on the FA market than Pugh and Richburg next year, and you can't draft five new starters.
Everyone is searching for answers  
joeinpa : 9/22/2017 7:49 am : link
I like to simplify things. If the O line was better the Giants would be fine.

Why is the O Line bad, that s the complicated part. Is it talent, coaching, poor quarterback play.

Truth is we don t really know. All we see is the line is bad. But in the end if it doesn't t get fixed the GM and coaching staff will be held responsible

As to Eli, quarterbacks get too much credit when they win,, so they have to take more of the game when they lose.

8 games without scoring 20 pts. That s pathetic in today s NFL. Quarterback has to take some responsibility.
pugh has been  
Dankbeerman : 9/22/2017 8:11 am : link
versitle and performed, his problem is health. I do think he needz to play all 16 this year first but he should be brought back.

Richburg is not dominating but the snaps are always good,not like the other guys who bounced them all preaseason, and he get out in space well. Not sure how much he will comand but think a big time rg next to him will help
joeinpa  
Gman11 : 9/22/2017 8:15 am : link
How can Flowers getting steamrolled be because of poor quarterback play? The same for the run blocking all over the line?

I realize that there are some QBs and some times even good QBs create sacks by holding the ball too long or scrambling into the defenders, but I don't see that being a problem with this offensive line.
The perfect storm has now been realized...  
silverfox : 9/22/2017 8:52 am : link
...poor OL leads to:
...no running game which leads to:
...defenses playing 2 deep safeties all day long which leads to:
...defenses only needing to rush 4 which leads to:
...defenses not blitzing and flooding the passing lanes which leads to:
...the QB only having 1.5 to 2 seconds to find a target

...and top it off, you have the most immobile QB on the planet who just makes it all worse.

...and a head coach who's play calling is horrible

...and we haven't played anybody with a great defense yet and those games will be disasters.

This season is already over and it isn't even October yet. I can say that because this OL hasn't improved in years, and Eli is getting slower and even more immobile. Not to mention he's playing scared and its now obvious to everybody. His head is screwed up enough now that his career is really in question if he stays in NY. The money spent on the skilled positions on offense won't have any effect unless the OL gets changed (i.e all the practice in the world won't change anything).

G-man  
joeinpa : 9/22/2017 9:03 am : link
He can t do anything about that. But there have been plays, like that interception, a real momentum breaker, that were on Eli.

If you searched through the archives of BBI, I think you would find over the years I have been a huge Eli guy, still am.

But just like I didn t want to think Simms was done, there are many guys in this place that will feel the same about Eli. Not saying he s nearing the end, just saying I don t know.

Giants organization are not satisfied with his play. They must have some rational thought behind that ooinion
Teams can tee off on Eli because he is not a threat to scramble  
AnnapolisMike : 9/22/2017 9:09 am : link
No worry about losing contain and the QB running for 15 yards.

That does not mean Eli makes the OL worse, but he has little ability to move around the pocket anymore to take pressure off the OL. It's all interrelated...but my thought is if you have a shakey OL...you need a QB that can escape. Eli is a pocket passer on a team that can rarely give him a pocket.
RE: I am all for letting Pugh walk  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/22/2017 9:11 am : link
In comment 13610397 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
Reese needs to go and we need to sign the best free agent Left Tackle on the market and the best free agent Left Guard on the market.


Good plan.

Now what do you do when the rest of the league doesn't allow good linemen hit free agency? Because they don't. If the price of these guards has not indicated it, linemen that can play are becoming as rare a commodity as there is in the sport.
Then I make some trades  
GeorgeAdams33 : 9/22/2017 9:57 am : link
I might even mortgage the future to win another ring with this QB while we have the receivers and the defense to do it.
....because they have shitty players?  
The_Boss : 9/22/2017 10:29 am : link
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Other teams have film on them  
Steve in South Jersey : 9/22/2017 10:42 am : link
and identify weaknesses.

Also, loss of confidence and maybe some guys have lost their hunger for the game ... just a payday.

RE: I am all for letting Pugh walk  
PatersonPlank : 9/22/2017 10:43 am : link
In comment 13610397 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
Richburg too.

I would use our top resources finally once and for all as we've heard about before. John Mara has called for it before and it has been ignored. Reese needs to go and we need to sign the best free agent Left Tackle on the market and the best free agent Left Guard on the market. Make a new veteran combo on the left protecting Eli's blind side. Sign a swing tackle who could possibly start on the right if Flowers can't candle it for some reason. Draft an OT in the first round and have him on deck as well. Start Jones at Center and Fluker at RG. Draft a Center and a Guard. Blow it up and start over, basically.


I would actually do the opposite, get rid of everyone bu RB and Pugh. Those are the only two NFL players we have on the OL. I think Pugh has been really good. He's been forced to play multiple positions but always come through well.
RE: Then I make some trades  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/22/2017 10:54 am : link
In comment 13610595 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
I might even mortgage the future


Not something to be taken casually. Their best free agent options were 35 year old tackles and players with a history of not being particularly good, or even coming off bad years who got a ton money. Or trading what would likely be a package starting with a 1st or 2nd round pick.

Fans can be quick to mortgage, but that's actually kind of a huge risk, especially considering the Giants history with free agent linemen falling apart from injuries in recent years.
Eli isn't the big problem here  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 9/22/2017 11:21 am : link
but some have the same emotional attachment to Eli that they accuse others of having to this regime.

I like Eli. I think he is largely underrated and undeserving of the criticism he has gotten over the years. Still, logic tells me that
they aren't hitching another new wagon to a 37 year old QB that is clearly on the decline.

If this ship goes down it's likely taking everybody with it, and I think Reese is in big big trouble.
Not sure what happened there  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 9/22/2017 11:23 am : link
but I may be in the wrong thread, sorry. lol
They aren't that good  
Ronzo17 : 9/22/2017 12:11 pm : link
Scheme sucks number 1. I would put 6 lineman on and a tight end for mass protection. But I guess Reese and Co likes Eli running for his life so they won't don't this. Secondly players aren't that good. They look very soft and overmatched
Those that are knocking Eli,  
Doomster : 9/22/2017 12:35 pm : link
have to remember a few things....

who is the only guy out there he has any real experience throwing to? SS.......

Marshall and him are definitely not on the same page.....

Eli took the blame for the int, stating he did not realize how fast Double E was....which may or may not be true....what is true though is how many passes has he thrown to him in games thus far.....same with Ellison.....

He may have new weapons, but there are just too many guys he is throwing to, that he has not had a lot of experience with....That just doesn't happen playing a couple quarters in preseason.....

Eli has a high %....but it's those crucial 3rd down passes, to guys he is just not comfortable throwing to yet....
Because  
old man : 9/22/2017 2:03 pm : link
They were average, maybe average+, in the first place, and opponents average+-good-good+ DLs caught up/surpassed them...figuratively and literally.
solari  
Possum : 9/23/2017 9:34 am : link
The only thing that changed other than Hart for Newhouse on the OL since 2015 when the offense was top 10 in the league is Solari. The players are getting worse year to year so how can you not blame Solari. In Reese's defense if the line was good enough to produce a top 10 offense in 2015 with mostly young players, how can you project they are going to get worse not better. Any change should start with Solari.
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