and reasons for optimism if he is given playcalling duties moving forward.
Sullivan only served as an Offensive Coordinator for 2 seasons with Tampa Bay, both under Greg Schiano (also his only two years as head coach).
2012:
The team set a franchise record with 5,820 yards of total offense and 389 total points scored. Good for 13th in the NFL. The previous season, 2011, they were ranked 32nd in the NFL in offense.
Josh Freeman threw for over 4000 yards, 27 TD's, with 17 INT's. Josh Freeman! The guy has never had another season like it.
Doug Martin ran for nearly 1500 yards and 11 TD's.
2013:
Here is where he gets the bad rap, but I went back and wanted to look at what happened. Let's try to remember a couple of things that were happening here, instead of just looking at the final result, which I myself did not remember until I went back and looked.
First off, in only his second year, Schiano was already wearing out his welcome and the lockerroom was deteriorating.
The MRSA outbreak that ended Lawrence Tynes career happened during training camp.
A rift opened between Schiano and Freeman during training camp, where Schiano was accused of rigging the voting for team captains, which prevented Freeman becoming a captain. The next day, Freeman skipped the team photo session and blamed it on "oversleeping". Freeman was benched three games into the regular season and accused of quitting on the team because of the situation with Schiano.
Doug Martin went on injured reserve after 6 games.
However, 3rd round pick Mike Glennon then came in for the final 13 games and set franchise rookie quarterback records for the Bucs, throwing for 2600 yards, 19 TD's, and only 9 INT's.
Despite that, The team regressed back to 32nd in the league in offense, which is what they were two years prior, the year before Sullivan took over as OC. Schiano and his entire staff were fired at the end of the season. So it wasn't like they had a good thing in place and said "Sullivan is responsible for this, let's fire him and get a new guy in here". The entire staff was fired. After a year off, Sullivan came back to the Giants in the role of Quarterback Coach and many were happy to have him, citing his successful experience as a coordinator (on BBI he was considered to have gotten a raw deal because of Schiano), and his work with Eli Manning in the same capacity in 2010-2011.
Here are the reasons for optimism as I see them, IF he's granted playcalling duties. First and foremost, familiarity with the Tom Coughlin offense going all the way back to 2004, and during the transition in 2014-2015.
Perhaps Sullivan can be the bridge back to that hybrid of the Coughlin/McAdoo offense that we saw in 2014-2015. Perhaps he has more of a feel for the flow of the game offensively having been privy to all those years in the planning room with Coughlin, and can weave back in some of those deep passing elements that made it successful during McAdoo's two years as OC.
We also moved guys around a lot more in 2015. Beckham in the slot, etc... Perhaps we can freshen up our offense by doing that again, and getting out of the ridgedness of McAdoo's playcalling.
Of course the sieve is still the offensive line, and Flaherty was a big piece of the success in that system, I'm guessing. But perhaps a fresh mind running the offense and calling some plays can return us to some semblance of balance.
See, now when you can get that in a form of a statement without a question mark at the end, you're making some progress.
The thread, which posits that Mike Sullivan can help save this mess through taking over the playcalling, seems to imply that he hasn't had anything to do with the offense up until this point.
Which, as the OC, either means he probably owes the Giants some back pay, or we're continuing down the path of 'Coughlin Guys Good, Reese/McAdoo Bad'.
His tenure under both coaches is relevant.
You started throwing out the Coughlin apologist crap on a thread that was nothing of the sort.
You are the troll on this thread. It's clear.
You know what Britt -- I love you -- but you are the king of knee-jerk reactions -- after two games I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water.
McAdoo has demonstrated that he can run an offense -- and a lot of what you are complaining about regarding scheme really does relate to individual performance. Flowers will still remain as will Jones or Hart -- That article you are waving around was about Sully being a Gillbride clone -- another guy who was hastily run out of town -- now you want Sully to be a McAdoo surrogate instead
You are grasping at straws dude.
I want to see a few more games before I start panicking - seriously -- in this NFL teams really don;t know what they are until 4 games have been played
am I disappointed in the start ? - yes I am -- but I'm not ready to just run McAdoo out of town yet -- it doesn't make sense to me what's happening -- but the three and outs, the miscues, and the field position game has sucked scissors so far -- and I tie that to performance and not scheme
holy crap - what about Marshall dropping what looked like a sure TD - look McAdoo had nothing to do with that one -- make that play and the whole complexion of a game can change -- we've seen it before
let these guys play a few more games before you lead the lynch mob -- by the way lynch mobs never were good at making decisions
Why do I waste my time?
You've gone one step further, implying that somehow the offense that worked while TC was still here was TC/McAdoo instead of McAdoo's (something TC himself refuted).
Oh, and just for good measure, let's mention Flaherty.
If you don't realize you're trolling, then it's worse than I thought.
I really hope he understands that it's time to try a new approach before it's too late. This team has too much talent to not even be competitive offensively.
Bad OL or not. I just watched the 49ers and Rams drop a combined 80 points last night. There's no fucking reason why we shouldn't be able to score more than once a game.
The offense is never going to be great with this line but I don't buy for a second that it can't be better than this.
I'll drink to that! At least when it gets closer to 5.. in a time zone close to the east coast.
It has always annoyed me when I hear people say that Belichick was unsuccessful in Cleveland. I have to always respond by saying BS! In his 3rd or 4th year there, he got them to the 2nd round of the playoffs! He's the last Cleveland coach to win a freaking playoff game. In his final year, his starting QB (Testaverde) went on IR the start of the season and then the stupid owner announced he was moving the team to Balt.
Who knows, maybe he is partly to blame for this mess...
Accurate description of a graduate from the Coughlin School of Coaching.
Have we not been playing from behind these first 2 weeks and at least 6 times last year?
It’s written above that McAdoo has demonstrated he can run [a successful] offense. Please explain when McAdoo ran a successful offense? When McAdoo got here OBJ was a rookie and I’d credit most of our “success” on offense to OBJ’s God given talent. What’s McAdoo even known for beside running McCarthy’s offense? (By the way, don’t we all agree McCarthy’s offense is special because of Rodgers and not the other way around?) Further, McCarthy is often regarded as a good play caller which is different from being a good Xs and Os game planner or a Parcells style motivator.
Different coaches are good at different things - rarely good at all things. Some coaches are good play callers. What evidence exists to indicate that McAdoo is good at play calling? I think McAdoo’s arrogance in refusing to give up play calling is absolutely breath taking. He is in essence saying that his plays are fine, it’s just that everybody else botching execution. Mind boggling arrogance!
Quote:
Statistically, Eli has never been better than when the offense was a TC/McAdoo mix.
I also think Sullivan can help right now if given an opportunity. I am doubtful McAdoo would be open-minded enough to draw from TC/Sullivan principles as he is full steam ahead with his Green Bay/McCarthy/Rodgers offense.
Big problem with that thought process is that we were playing from behind in 2014 to 2015, so our offense was probably playing defenses that were willing to take more risks, because they had a big lead. We also probably scored more in garbage time.
We're playing from behind now, so there goes that. Plus, in 2015, they weren't really storming back from behind - they were a legitimately good offense with a terrible defense that couldn't hold a lead.
I'm aware that most fans don't really know the real reasons why an offense isn't clicking...but they do take their football pretty seriously here, so we can't totally discount their consensus opinion.
Having said that I believe play calling is an art and BM is NOT an artist. I'd give Sully a shot to see if it could jump-start our O.
I suppose it's statistically possible for it to get worse, but the Giants are averaging 6 1/2 pts. per game and losing by double digits. It would be really hard for this Offense to suck more than it does right now.
Don't leave we need you to lead the resistance. don't mind the old wind bags that keep saying give it time and the pre season doesn't matter or Jerry Reese is a good GM look how he rebuilt the Defense after only spending 200 million. Bad is just bad and not being able to score 20 or more points in the modern NFL there is no excuse. Some of you guys need to watch football outside of the Giants to full appreciate how bad it is right now.
You have a coach that has no imagination and plays give up way more then anybody else you see strolling the sideline how many times are we going to watch him call a draw play on 3rd and long to play it safe I watch the 49ers complete two of them last night.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water what is so precious with team that we need to worry about keeping or that the offense could be worse tell me how we are ranked at the bottom. Its not a knee jerk if you watched it almost all of last season, through the preseason of this year and the first 2 games its reality and unless you are so old that you judge the team how it plays from decade to decade then how do you tell somebody they are over reacting.
However back on track I like the article about Sullivan it too game me a glimmer of hope that something might change this year and the team might be able to turn things around.
Not much has changed since he was pushed out the door and the results are right back to the same problems that were the reasons he was forced out. The offensive game plans are not competitive with other NFL teams.
The Dallas defensive coaching staff undressed the Giants in game one. They had the DLs ignore the run and attack Eli on every play. Somehow this was a total shock to McAdoo and Sullivan and they no answer for it like they had no answe for cover all last year.
The defense tupposed better side of the ball plays on their heels like it’s 1997. Listen to Carl Banks talk about the Eagles defense on FAN today. Extremely aggressive and heavy handed. Not the Giants philosophy. The defense is loaded with better than average players and they’re being coached in a way that lets the other team dictate the game.
If this season turns into another 2003 I hope the Maras finally clean house and start over. But we would be ignoring their history to expect that.
or conversely running the offense for the coach that taught it to him? How's he supposed to be better than the originator? I absolutely think Sully would be a poor choice to do playcalling - both coming and going.
Get a new OC completely if you need a change -- in my opinion
ok Britt -- no problem -- you know I love you -- you're true Blue!
Quote:
I didn't call you a troll. There was a comma there.
ok Brett -- no problem -- you know I love you -- you're true Blue!
Fixed.
You are conflating that with him being fired, or "run out of town" or "throwing the baby out with the bath wAter" etc
There's a huge difference there.
There's plenty of reason to question if letting a brand new HC at McAdoos age and relatively limited experience for an HC should be both the HC and OC- play calling.
It's a lot. Far more experienced guys than McAdoo have been unable to handle both.
Far from running McAdoo out of town, it could be the thing that saves jos job.
If we actually start scoring points and winning games, he will be fine.
Not necessarily a good thing, if what you're implying is Mara telling a coach how to coach.
Have we not been playing from behind these first 2 weeks and at least 6 times last year?
We have a defense that keeps the score close. So to answer your point, yes we are playing from behind. However, those defenses are not playing with such a large lead that they can take more risks and blitz, or shit back in softer defenses.
If we lose it may be too late by then.
I don't see where the improvement comes from. The schedule is tougher this year. This isn't a case of an inexperienced coaching not figuring it out. They have a serious talent problem at offensive line and there's no scheme for that.
I shouldn't have taken jcn's bait.
Let's focus on Sullivan.
Taken the bait? Your own initial response had the most damning sentence in bold: he had six good games in Tampa.
You can proudly wear your badge of honor all you want, and claim that this is about the here and now, but the reality is, it sure looks like you're reaching back desperately for a TC legacy that remains on the staff.
Quote:
?
Yes - it can be worse
Im actually curious as to how exactly. Im being serious
The fact that the offensive units are unsound, both individually and as units, and therefore as a cohesive offense, falls on one person, the head coach. In this case Mcadoo
Well....aside from turnovers, I dont see how it can. Eli can go down after being crunched, but this team isnt winning a thing with this O.
I have not seen a more hapless Giants O.
Btw, that answer to my question had exactly the umph I'd thought it'd have. It literally cannot get ANY worse for a fan of this team as far as the prospective success of the offense. Dreadful isnt the word. I dont think a word exists that encapsulates the totality of dysfunction of this current system. It is infuriatingly bad.
Quote:
in 2012 when Freeman was thriving under Sullivan, many on BBI crowned him as the next big thing and would have gladly traded Eli for him.
Ok.. the raining SB MVP was ready to be pushed out for some scrub? I am sure an idiot here and there asked for this but 99% of BBI is smart enough not to ask for this..
Well there were some who wanted Nassib at one point before McAdoo came in an installed more star friendly Offence. I always felt that Eli got a lot of shit due to some years w WRs whose route running hurt him and the style of the O. Stats and Fantasy have made people think Kirk Cousins is a top tier QB. So people gripe and whine. Think Matt Stafford cares ne didn't light up some people's Fantasy teams?
Over use of stats has colored the perception of players these days. And Eli is one of those guys who had a few years of shitty WRs. The last 4-5 one of the worst OLs in the NFL. And we are hearing he's on the way down. The OL doesn't get fixed we will hear calls for Webb
Quote:
a Coughlin thread.
I shouldn't have taken jcn's bait.
Let's focus on Sullivan.
Taken the bait? Your own initial response had the most damning sentence in bold: he had six good games in Tampa.
You can proudly wear your badge of honor all you want, and claim that this is about the here and now, but the reality is, it sure looks like you're reaching back desperately for a TC legacy that remains on the staff.
Ha, read much? The sentence said he had a six game stretch where his offense was "the best in the NFL".
Quote:
In comment 13610690 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
a Coughlin thread.
I shouldn't have taken jcn's bait.
Let's focus on Sullivan.
Taken the bait? Your own initial response had the most damning sentence in bold: he had six good games in Tampa.
You can proudly wear your badge of honor all you want, and claim that this is about the here and now, but the reality is, it sure looks like you're reaching back desperately for a TC legacy that remains on the staff.
Ha, read much? The sentence said he had a six game stretch where his offense was "the best in the NFL".
It also said that the "success" that Tampa's offense had in 2012 was quickly countered by NFL defenses and contributed to them losing four of their last five games (they actually lost five of their last six that year, averaging 17 points and 2 turnovers per game during that stretch):
In other words, that "best in the NFL" stretch was fools gold.
Quote:
In comment 13611046 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13610690 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
a Coughlin thread.
I shouldn't have taken jcn's bait.
Let's focus on Sullivan.
Taken the bait? Your own initial response had the most damning sentence in bold: he had six good games in Tampa.
You can proudly wear your badge of honor all you want, and claim that this is about the here and now, but the reality is, it sure looks like you're reaching back desperately for a TC legacy that remains on the staff.
Ha, read much? The sentence said he had a six game stretch where his offense was "the best in the NFL".
It also said that the "success" that Tampa's offense had in 2012 was quickly countered by NFL defenses and contributed to them losing four of their last five games (they actually lost five of their last six that year, averaging 17 points and 2 turnovers per game during that stretch):
Quote:
Unfortunately, teams soon wisened up to the new gameplan - the Rams' James Laurinaitis in particular mentioned, in the aftermath of a game that saw them intercept Freeman four times, how easy it was to read the Bucs' offense - contributing to the team losing four of its final five games.
In other words, that "best in the NFL" stretch was fools gold.
Well he wouldn't be putting in his own offense. If McAdoo gives up the play calling it will be begrudging, but it will still be his offense, and his game plan. Few head coaches have been truly been successful both managing the game while also calling the plays themselves. Hard enough for most coaches to do even one successfully in the NFL. The list is very short of those that manged both well.
Allowing Sullivan, who has experience at it to be a second pair of eyes for a fresh perspective and relieve McAdoo of the burden to free him up to solely concentrate on managing the games makes a lot of sense. It would still be Mac's offense.