and reasons for optimism if he is given playcalling duties moving forward.
Sullivan only served as an Offensive Coordinator for 2 seasons with Tampa Bay, both under Greg Schiano (also his only two years as head coach).
2012:
The team set a franchise record with 5,820 yards of total offense and 389 total points scored. Good for 13th in the NFL. The previous season, 2011, they were ranked 32nd in the NFL in offense.
Josh Freeman threw for over 4000 yards, 27 TD's, with 17 INT's. Josh Freeman! The guy has never had another season like it.
Doug Martin ran for nearly 1500 yards and 11 TD's.
2013:
Here is where he gets the bad rap, but I went back and wanted to look at what happened. Let's try to remember a couple of things that were happening here, instead of just looking at the final result, which I myself did not remember until I went back and looked.
First off, in only his second year, Schiano was already wearing out his welcome and the lockerroom was deteriorating.
The MRSA outbreak that ended Lawrence Tynes career happened during training camp.
A rift opened between Schiano and Freeman during training camp, where Schiano was accused of rigging the voting for team captains, which prevented Freeman becoming a captain. The next day, Freeman skipped the team photo session and blamed it on "oversleeping". Freeman was benched three games into the regular season and accused of quitting on the team because of the situation with Schiano.
Doug Martin went on injured reserve after 6 games.
However, 3rd round pick Mike Glennon then came in for the final 13 games and set franchise rookie quarterback records for the Bucs, throwing for 2600 yards, 19 TD's, and only 9 INT's.
Despite that, The team regressed back to 32nd in the league in offense, which is what they were two years prior, the year before Sullivan took over as OC. Schiano and his entire staff were fired at the end of the season. So it wasn't like they had a good thing in place and said "Sullivan is responsible for this, let's fire him and get a new guy in here". The entire staff was fired. After a year off, Sullivan came back to the Giants in the role of Quarterback Coach and many were happy to have him, citing his successful experience as a coordinator (on BBI he was considered to have gotten a raw deal because of Schiano), and his work with Eli Manning in the same capacity in 2010-2011.
Here are the reasons for optimism as I see them, IF he's granted playcalling duties. First and foremost, familiarity with the Tom Coughlin offense going all the way back to 2004, and during the transition in 2014-2015.
Perhaps Sullivan can be the bridge back to that hybrid of the Coughlin/McAdoo offense that we saw in 2014-2015. Perhaps he has more of a feel for the flow of the game offensively having been privy to all those years in the planning room with Coughlin, and can weave back in some of those deep passing elements that made it successful during McAdoo's two years as OC.
We also moved guys around a lot more in 2015. Beckham in the slot, etc... Perhaps we can freshen up our offense by doing that again, and getting out of the ridgedness of McAdoo's playcalling.
Of course the sieve is still the offensive line, and Flaherty was a big piece of the success in that system, I'm guessing. But perhaps a fresh mind running the offense and calling some plays can return us to some semblance of balance.
Eli's a very cerebral quarterback and that can't be discounted. I'd wager Sullivan and Eli are more similar in styles and how they see attacking a defense, than Eli and McAdoo.
I also think Sullivan can help right now if given an opportunity. I am doubtful McAdoo would be open-minded enough to draw from TC/Sullivan principles as he is full steam ahead with his Green Bay/McCarthy/Rodgers offense.
Secondly, look at the production he got out of the two Quarterbacks he had while there: Josh Freeman and Mike Glennon.
Those guys are bums. We have Eli Manning.
But the rosy recollections of his great work in Tampa don't seem to be shared by the fans or writers down there.
https://www.bucsnation.com/2014/1/1/5253078/mike-sullivan-retrospective - ( New Window )
I also think Sullivan can help right now if given an opportunity. I am doubtful McAdoo would be open-minded enough to draw from TC/Sullivan principles as he is full steam ahead with his Green Bay/McCarthy/Rodgers offense.
Big problem with that thought process is that we were playing from behind in 2014 to 2015, so our offense was probably playing defenses that were willing to take more risks, because they had a big lead. We also probably scored more in garbage time.
Who knows, maybe he is partly to blame for this mess...
But the rosy recollections of his great work in Tampa don't seem to be shared by the fans or writers down there. https://www.bucsnation.com/2014/1/1/5253078/mike-sullivan-retrospective - ( New Window )
That article is mainly based on what happened in 2013 and was written after the 2013 season.
Interestingly enough, the compliment him several times in that article, as well. The title of the article reads worse than the article itself:
That said, Sullivan did again being to show the ability to adapt, even if it was at glacial pace; when the quarterback switch was made to Mike Glennon, Sullivan began to have more checkdowns on pass plays. Eventually he began throwing in more crossing routes - mesh concepts on third downs being a particular favourite - and it was when he started introducing more complementary underneath routes the the offense began to pick up a little, bringing the team four wins.
Most of that article is about Sullivan's stubbornness in not going away from the read option routes of the WR's, and trying to run the ball for balance too much.
The read option routes, as well all know, ARE the Coughlin Gilbride offense. Unlike Freeman and Glennon, Eli Manning is super familiar with this offense, not trying to learn it.
Secondly, don't we want more balance in the run game? Isn't that what's being asked for?
I see that article less of an indictment of Sullivan and more as reading that what he was bashed for in Tampa is exactly what we need here in New York, this year.
Who knows, maybe he is partly to blame for this mess...
That's what we called the Gilbride offesne, too. And he ran the Gilbride offense.
Really? My gripe was all the losing.
There is no transitive property where Ben McAdoo doing a shitty job somehow means that Tom Coughlin actually didn't do a shitty job in his final years with the Giants. Believe it or not, both can be true.
What I have a problem with is the whole hiring process after TC left. Some guys didn't seem like serious candidates. I like Marrone. Some do not. I think Hue Jackson should have been more of a priority to get in the building for an interview. There are many complaints I have. McAdoo seemed like he got the job for the wrong reasons. It seemed like they chose him because they didn't want to lose him, specifically to the Eagles, they wanted his system so they didn't waste another year of Eli learning a new system, and it allowed us to keep Spags. But did he earn it? Was he the best candidate for the position? Did they exhaust all options for the position? I don't think they did.
The more time that goes by it seems more obvious that McAdoo isn't the right leader for this group. When he takes responsibility he really isn't taking responsibility. He is blaming players publicly too often and not others which makes him seem like he is losing the fan base, possibly the players, and the team as a whole. When he came here all he did was talk about his flexible offense. Well, it has been anything but. He is too stubborn to mix it up. Our RBs don't chip. Our TEs don't help out our OTs. All they do is block another defender one on one. He doesn't do a good job of getting his best players involved early. He is lacking in a lot of areas. His game management was pretty good last year. This year it has not been good.
Like Coughlin, if he is gonna last here he is going to have to learn how to adapt.
I shouldn't have taken jcn's bait.
Let's focus on Sullivan.
Ok.. the raining SB MVP was ready to be pushed out for some scrub? I am sure an idiot here and there asked for this but 99% of BBI is smart enough not to ask for this..
Quote:
Repetitive, archaic and stubborn: a look back at Mike Sullivan and his offense
Who knows, maybe he is partly to blame for this mess...
That's what we called the Gilbride offesne, too. And he ran the Gilbride offense.
and that's what you all are calling the McAdoo Offense too --- color me skeptical about Sully being an improvement over McAdoo
Yes - it can be worse
What I have a problem with is the whole hiring process after TC left. Some guys didn't seem like serious candidates. I like Marrone. Some do not. I think Hue Jackson should have been more of a priority to get in the building for an interview. There are many complaints I have. McAdoo seemed like he got the job for the wrong reasons. It seemed like they chose him because they didn't want to lose him, specifically to the Eagles, they wanted his system so they didn't waste another year of Eli learning a new system, and it allowed us to keep Spags. But did he earn it? Was he the best candidate for the position? Did they exhaust all options for the position? I don't think they did.
The more time that goes by it seems more obvious that McAdoo isn't the right leader for this group. When he takes responsibility he really isn't taking responsibility. He is blaming players publicly too often and not others which makes him seem like he is losing the fan base, possibly the players, and the team as a whole. When he came here all he did was talk about his flexible offense. Well, it has been anything but. He is too stubborn to mix it up. Our RBs don't chip. Our TEs don't help out our OTs. All they do is block another defender one on one. He doesn't do a good job of getting his best players involved early. He is lacking in a lot of areas. His game management was pretty good last year. This year it has not been good.
Like Coughlin, if he is gonna last here he is going to have to learn how to adapt.
Just remember what accelerated the hiring of McAdoo by the Giants...
...Tom Coughlin running to Philly, having an awful interview all about how he wanted to get back at them, and his desire to bring his staff along.
I'm all for loyalty - but half of you guys are content to see the team languish just so Coughlin can be vindicated, and it's pathetic.
Tom Coughlin's interview with the Philadelphia Eagles was a disaster, per report - ( New Window )
Quote:
But it is okay to be critical. He wasn't perfect. Nobody is. You have to outweigh the positives and the negatives. Imo, it was time to move on. There was a disconnect between him, management, and ownership. I don't care if you are Belichick, if you are not on the same page then there are going to be issues.
What I have a problem with is the whole hiring process after TC left. Some guys didn't seem like serious candidates. I like Marrone. Some do not. I think Hue Jackson should have been more of a priority to get in the building for an interview. There are many complaints I have. McAdoo seemed like he got the job for the wrong reasons. It seemed like they chose him because they didn't want to lose him, specifically to the Eagles, they wanted his system so they didn't waste another year of Eli learning a new system, and it allowed us to keep Spags. But did he earn it? Was he the best candidate for the position? Did they exhaust all options for the position? I don't think they did.
The more time that goes by it seems more obvious that McAdoo isn't the right leader for this group. When he takes responsibility he really isn't taking responsibility. He is blaming players publicly too often and not others which makes him seem like he is losing the fan base, possibly the players, and the team as a whole. When he came here all he did was talk about his flexible offense. Well, it has been anything but. He is too stubborn to mix it up. Our RBs don't chip. Our TEs don't help out our OTs. All they do is block another defender one on one. He doesn't do a good job of getting his best players involved early. He is lacking in a lot of areas. His game management was pretty good last year. This year it has not been good.
Like Coughlin, if he is gonna last here he is going to have to learn how to adapt.
Just remember what accelerated the hiring of McAdoo by the Giants...
...Tom Coughlin running to Philly, having an awful interview all about how he wanted to get back at them, and his desire to bring his staff along.
I'm all for loyalty - but half of you guys are content to see the team languish just so Coughlin can be vindicated, and it's pathetic. Tom Coughlin's interview with the Philadelphia Eagles was a disaster, per report - ( New Window )
Just stop, please.
Quote:
Was his clock management the last two seasons. That and stubbornness about giving guys a shot when others are clearly struggling. Injury or not.
Really? My gripe was all the losing.
There is no transitive property where Ben McAdoo doing a shitty job somehow means that Tom Coughlin actually didn't do a shitty job in his final years with the Giants. Believe it or not, both can be true.
Yes, really. Because he would have won several games if it weren't for poor clock management and stubbornness of playing certain players over others. No need to lash out, it's a fucking game.
See, now when you can get that in a form of a statement without a question mark at the end, you're making some progress.
The thread, which posits that Mike Sullivan can help save this mess through taking over the playcalling, seems to imply that he hasn't had anything to do with the offense up until this point.
Which, as the OC, either means he probably owes the Giants some back pay, or we're continuing down the path of 'Coughlin Guys Good, Reese/McAdoo Bad'.
His tenure under both coaches is relevant.
You started throwing out the Coughlin apologist crap on a thread that was nothing of the sort.
You are the troll on this thread. It's clear.
You know what Britt -- I love you -- but you are the king of knee-jerk reactions -- after two games I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water.
McAdoo has demonstrated that he can run an offense -- and a lot of what you are complaining about regarding scheme really does relate to individual performance. Flowers will still remain as will Jones or Hart -- That article you are waving around was about Sully being a Gillbride clone -- another guy who was hastily run out of town -- now you want Sully to be a McAdoo surrogate instead
You are grasping at straws dude.
I want to see a few more games before I start panicking - seriously -- in this NFL teams really don;t know what they are until 4 games have been played
am I disappointed in the start ? - yes I am -- but I'm not ready to just run McAdoo out of town yet -- it doesn't make sense to me what's happening -- but the three and outs, the miscues, and the field position game has sucked scissors so far -- and I tie that to performance and not scheme
holy crap - what about Marshall dropping what looked like a sure TD - look McAdoo had nothing to do with that one -- make that play and the whole complexion of a game can change -- we've seen it before
let these guys play a few more games before you lead the lynch mob -- by the way lynch mobs never were good at making decisions
Why do I waste my time?
You've gone one step further, implying that somehow the offense that worked while TC was still here was TC/McAdoo instead of McAdoo's (something TC himself refuted).
Oh, and just for good measure, let's mention Flaherty.
If you don't realize you're trolling, then it's worse than I thought.
I really hope he understands that it's time to try a new approach before it's too late. This team has too much talent to not even be competitive offensively.
Bad OL or not. I just watched the 49ers and Rams drop a combined 80 points last night. There's no fucking reason why we shouldn't be able to score more than once a game.
The offense is never going to be great with this line but I don't buy for a second that it can't be better than this.
I'll drink to that! At least when it gets closer to 5.. in a time zone close to the east coast.
It has always annoyed me when I hear people say that Belichick was unsuccessful in Cleveland. I have to always respond by saying BS! In his 3rd or 4th year there, he got them to the 2nd round of the playoffs! He's the last Cleveland coach to win a freaking playoff game. In his final year, his starting QB (Testaverde) went on IR the start of the season and then the stupid owner announced he was moving the team to Balt.