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Good article on the offensive struggles and why

djm : 9/22/2017 6:38 pm
Apologies if this was posted already. Giants talk is halfway down the article although even the take on Dez Bryant is interesting.

Quote:
While I can't completely absolve Ereck Flowers, Justin Pugh, Weston Richburg, John Jerry and Bobby Hart from blame for the team's dismal 0-2 start, I'm here to tell you the Giants' woes primarily fall on the shoulders of Ben McAdoo, Eli Manning and an underachieving set of pass catchers and ball carriers who've failed to live up to the hype that preceded the season.

My film study and some close statistical analysis suggests the team's front line is being unfairly blamed for all the Giants' woes when it's really the skill guys who are consistently coming up short. From Manning's struggles with accuracy, ball placement and decisiveness to the pass catchers' problems creating separation and holding onto the ball to the running backs' lack of explosiveness between the tackles, New York's offensive ineptitude can be pinned on a number of factors that have little to do with the play of the big boys up front.



Link - ( New Window )
I don't buy it.  
TC : 9/22/2017 6:42 pm : link
While there's plenty of blame to go around, this smacks of writing something to write something. The OL deserves a big, fat helping of blame!
Pretty eye opening  
djm : 9/22/2017 6:42 pm : link
Quote:
For instance, the Giants are providing Manning with more time to throw in the pocket than he experienced a season ago. Next Gen Stats show that he has averaged 2.76 seconds from snap to throw, which is significantly higher than his 2016 mark (2.53) and well above league average (2.63). In addition, the G-Men have improved their average time-to-sack-allowed figure to 4.38 seconds, after conceding quarterback takedowns at an average clip of 3.95 seconds last fall. Considering league average is 4.44 seconds, the Giants' pass protection hasn't been nearly as leaky as some have suggested


The more you read.... I want to hibernate and just make this season go away.
RE: I don't buy it.  
djm : 9/22/2017 6:44 pm : link
In comment 13611163 TC said:
Quote:
While there's plenty of blame to go around, this smacks of writing something to write something. The OL deserves a big, fat helping of blame!


Read the article. I get that stats can be misleading but that's all we have to go on. The rbs are god awful. I don't care how bad an OL is the rbs have to make a play just once. Ours don't. Ever.
I don't buy it  
UberAlias : 9/22/2017 6:57 pm : link
Teams are shutting down the running game with the front 7. This group has provided poor run blocking for years and that hasn't changed. They are getting pressure with only their front 4. The numbers are stacked against the receivers and Eli in the passing game. Then there is the Odell injury.

I criticized Eli for his play several times but he has also played well at times particularly in the second half of both games when the protection improved.

RBs, Oline, and coaching judgement are the biggest culprets here.
RE: RE: I don't buy it.  
Gman11 : 9/22/2017 6:57 pm : link
In comment 13611165 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13611163 TC said:
Read the article. I get that stats can be misleading but that's all we have to go on. The rbs are god awful. I don't care how bad an OL is the rbs have to make a play just once. Ours don't. Ever.


I agree. RBs playing against the Giants gets 4 yards after being hit at the line of scrimmage. They break tackles. The plow forward to get the first down on 3rd and 1. The Giants RBs just fall down.
The other thing is they have had to give help  
UberAlias : 9/22/2017 7:02 pm : link
You can't just look at the stats and say increased time means Oline is not at issue. The line is losing battles with numbers in their favor.
The Giants not only receive QB pressure from 4 DL,  
TC : 9/22/2017 7:08 pm : link
they get it from 3! Eli is getting the crap knocked out of him and some of the time he has gotten has come from him extending plays.

The Giants RB's are finesse guys, not pounders, though Darkwa is a more physical journeyman. Once again, you get what you take!

But yeah, WR's need to receive. Though I'm not sure a lack of separation is entirely on them and unrelated to their roots. Sheppard is getting blasted as soon as he touches the ball.

Like I said, there's plenty of blame to go around.
This thread needs this video  
BlueHurricane : 9/22/2017 7:08 pm : link
Badly
Just watch and listen...... - ( New Window )
routes  
TC : 9/22/2017 7:09 pm : link
.
RE: The other thing is they have had to give help  
BigBlueShock : 9/22/2017 7:10 pm : link
In comment 13611171 UberAlias said:
Quote:
You can't just look at the stats and say increased time means Oline is not at issue. The line is losing battles with numbers in their favor.

Hasn't one of the major gripes this week been that they are running too much 11 personnel and NOT giving the help that they should? Ellison and the FBs are rarely on the field, so who's helping? Engram is out running routes on most plays.
The criticism were about not giving Flowers more help  
UberAlias : 9/22/2017 7:15 pm : link
McAdoo explained that they did give him more help as the game went on but initially their concerns were for Pugh who was playing out of position and that was where they had focused.
Yeah I don't even want to squarely blame anyone  
djm : 9/22/2017 7:17 pm : link
But some of the stats or numbers provided here are interesting. The rbs not getting any yards after contact... can't have that.
I read this good news earlier this week...  
Jimmy Googs : 9/22/2017 7:18 pm : link
Ellison played just 24-of-56 snaps in Monday's 24-10 loss to the Lions. The 6-foot-5, 255-pound Ellison has played just 38 percent of the Giants' offensive snaps in the first two games. Compare that with speedy tight end Evan Engram, who has played 81 percent of the offensive snaps.

Ellison was supposed to help the offensive line in pass protection and run-blocking, but he simply hasn't been on the field enough to make an impact. Engram has flashed his ability as a receiver, but he predictably isn't much of a factor as a blocker.

The Giants were in 11 personnel (one running back, one tight end, three wide receivers) on 42 snaps in Monday's game, according to Pro Football Focus. They used two-tight end sets on 11 snaps and they had three snaps with two backs and one or no tight ends.
Considering  
simbapenn : 9/22/2017 7:40 pm : link
our starting RB from last year isn't on an NFL roster, and our current starter and backup couldn't beat him out for the job at any point last year, I kinda have to agree.
I  
AcidTest : 9/22/2017 7:40 pm : link
don't agree. The extra time doesn't matter since Eli is facing so many defenders in coverage. We also can't run largely because there are no holes. Teams are controlling our OL with just four players. They rarely blitz and still shut us down.
RE: Considering  
simbapenn : 9/22/2017 7:47 pm : link
In comment 13611189 simbapenn said:
Quote:
our starting RB from last year isn't on an NFL roster, and our current starter and backup couldn't beat him out for the job at any point last year, I kinda have to agree.


Correcting myself that Perkins got the start Week 17. Still, my point still stands that they are pretty bad to take that long to beat out a guy who is no longer rostered anywhere.
RE: I don't buy it.  
section125 : 9/22/2017 8:14 pm : link
In comment 13611163 TC said:
Quote:
While there's plenty of blame to go around, this smacks of writing something to write something. The OL deserves a big, fat helping of blame!


You don't buy it because you have a preconceived notion. While the line has not been good, the RBs don't run with authority, the WRs have dropped passes and Eli is Eli is Eli - inaccurate, throws too many passes short of the 1st down line, misses too many open receivers and hears too many footsteps on too many downs.
Play calling sucks too.
I just can't shake this conviction  
djm : 9/22/2017 8:21 pm : link
That even if the OL is 2008 level good this offense would still be below average or barely average.

When an offense struggles like this it's due to a system wide failure more than one or two or even three bad olinemen.
RE: I just can't shake this conviction  
jcn56 : 9/22/2017 8:24 pm : link
In comment 13611208 djm said:
Quote:
That even if the OL is 2008 level good this offense would still be below average or barely average.

When an offense struggles like this it's due to a system wide failure more than one or two or even three bad olinemen.


I've been saying this since the Dallas game and it comes off as a pass for the OL. It's not - they're not great, they're just not as bad as they look. And when they do protect, the Giants are not making plays.

There's blame for everyone here, nobody walks away clean. McAdoo, Eli, the WRs, the OL, RBs - everyone can do better than they have thus far, and they're all partly to blame for this mess, even if it is the OL by a bigger margin than other positions.
Enough of this 90% 11 personnel dysfunction  
trueblueinpw : 9/22/2017 8:31 pm : link
Many people were screaming about this 90% 11 personnel set thing from about the 4th game of last season. Howard Cross brought it up during one of the games early last season and if he knew about it then, you can bet d-cos saw it long our sideline reporter from the Crimson Tide.

What in the world does a single back formation and three WR do for our offense? If we had a play making running back like Tiki or Barry Sanders then maybe we could expect some running plays to work every now and again. But Jennings didn’t ever really make those kinds of plays, and Perk and the other JAGs don’t seem to either. (Though McAdoo seems to have given up on the run entirely at this point). Is McAdoo allergic to an I formation? If teams had to even think about a running play of four or more yards they might get out this two high safety coverage that has completely vexed the offensive genius Ben McAdoo. What in the world is the matter with this guy that he keeps running the same plays over and over again?
Exactly  
djm : 9/22/2017 8:32 pm : link
And worse yet, how bad are the coaches (MAC) if they couldn't see this coming? Talk about getting caught with your pants down... my god man, this team hasn't looked this ill prepared since 1995.

It's mainly the OL and Play calling (Mac)  
ZogZerg : 9/22/2017 8:50 pm : link
The line is terrible. Anyone can see it.
RE: RE: I don't buy it.  
JCin332 : 9/22/2017 9:02 pm : link
In comment 13611204 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13611163 TC said:


Quote:


While there's plenty of blame to go around, this smacks of writing something to write something. The OL deserves a big, fat helping of blame!



You don't buy it because you have a preconceived notion. While the line has not been good, the RBs don't run with authority, the WRs have dropped passes and Eli is Eli is Eli - inaccurate, throws too many passes short of the 1st down line, misses too many open receivers and hears too many footsteps on too many downs.
Play calling sucks too.


Another genius who doesn't watch the games...
And what is this new false narrative I am hearing  
JCin332 : 9/22/2017 9:05 pm : link
from the dingbats about throwing passes "short of the 1st down marker"...??

So Eli is running the patterns now too..?
Nothing false about it.....  
Doomster : 9/22/2017 9:27 pm : link
This happened a lot last season, and is happening this season.....There were many games of at least 3 catches on 3rd down, that did not become first downs....

Part of it is on the receivers for not going deep enough....part of it is on Eli, where a receiver has to reach back, jump high, or in some cases dive for the ball.....Eli is not at his best when it comes to short passes....he has to hit these guys in stride more.....
RE: I don't buy it.  
Beer Man : 9/22/2017 9:28 pm : link
In comment 13611163 TC said:
Quote:
While there's plenty of blame to go around, this smacks of writing something to write something. The OL deserves a big, fat helping of blame!
This. Fix the line and we'll see how good/bad the others are.
yes more deep routes  
mdc1 : 9/22/2017 9:34 pm : link
the separation issue seems very real on these garbage 5 yard high school league routes (McAdoo).

RE: yes more deep routes  
HomerJones45 : 9/22/2017 9:38 pm : link
In comment 13611257 mdc1 said:
Quote:
the separation issue seems very real on these garbage 5 yard high school league routes (McAdoo).
Not surprising. Outside of Beckham, we have no speed or quickness. Adding Marshall and Ellison only exacerbated the issue.
Yawn  
WillVAB : 9/22/2017 10:15 pm : link
1. He's using stats off two games to say he's getting better protection. All it takes is a handful of plays where the OL gets blown up and Eli goes down immediately to bring down two game sample size averages.

2. Teams haven't blitzed through two games. So maybe on average Eli has a fraction of a second longer to throw, but he's also throwing into 7 guys in coverage.
Mcadoo calls plays scared  
Section308 : 9/22/2017 11:32 pm : link
Giants defense consistently leaves the offense with field position inside their own 20. McAdoo expects the defense to fully carry this team so he calls conservative shit plays which results in 3 and outs. You only need to look at halftime of the Lions game. Detroit is 3rd and 12 with a minute and a half on the clock and he doesn't use any timeouts. Instead let's them chew clock hit the field goal and get the ball back with less than 30 seconds. Zero innovation in his plays, same garbage since he got here. Which didn't work as well as he thought until TC pressured him into to expanding the routes. No clue why the guy has a sheet of a few hundred plays only consistently calls the same 7.
RE: RE: yes more deep routes  
christian : 9/22/2017 11:39 pm : link
In comment 13611260 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 13611257 mdc1 said:


Quote:


the separation issue seems very real on these garbage 5 yard high school league routes (McAdoo).


Not surprising. Outside of Beckham, we have no speed or quickness. Adding Marshall and Ellison only exacerbated the issue.


Engram would probably take exception to that assertion.
As I said, there's a lot of blame to go around . . . .  
TC : 9/22/2017 11:45 pm : link
and certainly McAdoo has to be considered deserving of some. Though it doesn't look good, I'm willing to extend the benefit of a doubt a little further. But if the offense looks as bad for the rest of the season as it has, and he's still here next year, I may stop watching Giants' football.

And I've been a fan for over 40 years.

This sh!t is brutal!
RE: This thread needs this video  
micky : 9/23/2017 12:07 am : link
In comment 13611174 BlueHurricane said:
Quote:
Badly Just watch and listen...... - ( New Window )


as like with PFF which everyone lives and dies with on here as explanations or truths..etc etc.
RE: RE: yes more deep routes  
Gman11 : 9/23/2017 3:32 pm : link
In comment 13611260 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 13611257 mdc1 said:


Quote:


the separation issue seems very real on these garbage 5 yard high school league routes (McAdoo).


Not surprising. Outside of Beckham, we have no speed or quickness. Adding Marshall and Ellison only exacerbated the issue.


This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think Shepard is all that good. It seems like he's not open very much. When he does get a catch, he doesn't get much YAC. Meh.
Not sure it is easy to tell right now as to which WRs  
Jimmy Googs : 9/23/2017 5:52 pm : link
are playing well or not. Our Offense is so broken as to TOP, number of plays, how often Eli has time, etc.

I think Shep has more than enough tools to be a solid contributor in an Offense.

Just wish we could find one...

RE: I  
ChaChing : 9/23/2017 7:06 pm : link
In comment 13611190 AcidTest said:
Quote:
don't agree. The extra time doesn't matter since Eli is facing so many defenders in coverage. We also can't run largely because there are no holes. Teams are controlling our OL with just four players. They rarely blitz and still shut us down.

Good post. It's not just about time but also resources, and it seems whatever pressure we get is with 3-4 DL and little else

Also much like a 2 yrs back, it seems a perfect storm of suck. Start with Eli's happy feet (right or wrong), leading to mediocre accuracy on avg, then of course blown up OL plays, horrible RB vision since AB, mediocre-to-useless TEs however better they are for 2017, even top WRs dropping multiple easy catches (did we have 3-4 last game alone?). Not a lot to hang your hat on there, esp when this inefficiency leads directly to negative impacts on the ST / Def units. And coaching / playcall doesn't seem like it's helping a lot, even given these deficiencies

Clearly I'm not ready to singularly blame Eli. But have never absolved him (IMO he's not 'elite' but that's no the convo here). If he could just improve his accuracy / touch - not an easy task given all the other factors such as protection, decision making, WRs etc - the whole ship would be significantly righted esp in this O. We've heard how his arm strength improved 1-2 offseasons (tho it didn't manifest appreciably in games), but little else specifically save confidence. This one improvement however difficult to make would be a huge difference for team production and success as well as Eli's individual legacy. For all the times we champion Eli's smarts, this is rarely discussed as a key issue save to say "he throws a lot of INTs." If nothing else it's been one of the biggest differences between Peyton & Eli, so you'd think an obvious one for him if not experts
dose of misdirection or unscripted QB runs  
idiotsavant : 9/23/2017 7:36 pm : link
could cure this.

one thing about Rodgers (macadoo connection) he can be downright hostetler-esque.

for those that don't remember, hostetler was very decisive, he sees something...boom, he sprints downfield.

couple of those can cure what ails you, typically against the grain and wide open space.


all that said, I have been preaching outside zone run blocking and play action since spring
I question the conclusion  
Gregorio : 9/23/2017 8:14 pm : link
in the article that the Giants pass protection is not so leaky. The increase in the Giants snap-to-throw time, does this account for the pressure and duress the QB is under each play? If it’s only the snap-to-throw time, then it is weak to conclude that the pass protection is not leaky.

Just watching the games you can see defenders putting serious pressure on Eli nearly every play.
RE: RE: I don't buy it.  
djm : 9/23/2017 8:21 pm : link
In comment 13611254 Beer Man said:
Quote:
In comment 13611163 TC said:


Quote:


While there's plenty of blame to go around, this smacks of writing something to write something. The OL deserves a big, fat helping of blame!

This. Fix the line and we'll see how good/bad the others are.


Guys. This team is on pace to obliterate offensive records for futility. Get that? It's not only the oline. My god.... do you really think a good oline makes all the problems disappear?? It's never that simple when an offense struggles this much. Cmon think.
The OL is historically bad  
TD : 9/24/2017 9:35 am : link
There is some blame to go around beyond the OL - the RBs, in particular - but the reason we can't crack 20 points in a game is squarely on the OL.

Consider this:

1) Ds can get pressure with 4 or even 3 DL
2) Ds can wreck run blocking with 7 or even 6 in the box (I think even 5)
3) Because of this, Ds can leave 7 or 8 in coverage regularly
4) And Eli and the WRs (and Mac) have to draw up and rely on quick, short routes or risk a catastrophic play
5) And when the ball does get beyond the LOS, there are 7 or 8 guys waiting to fill within 20 yards
6) And on top of all that, going back to 1, Ds are getting pressure on, sacking and hitting Eli all day, which is a very bad outcome in and of itself.

Yes, the RBs suck, too and are part of the problem. And yes, there have been a few errant or dropped passes. But the reason this team can't crack 20 fucking points is the OL. Plain and simple - it is historically bad and causing the rest of the O to jam up entirely.
RE: The OL is historically bad  
PatersonPlank : 9/24/2017 10:46 am : link
In comment 13612157 TD said:
Quote:
There is some blame to go around beyond the OL - the RBs, in particular - but the reason we can't crack 20 points in a game is squarely on the OL.

Consider this:

1) Ds can get pressure with 4 or even 3 DL
2) Ds can wreck run blocking with 7 or even 6 in the box (I think even 5)
3) Because of this, Ds can leave 7 or 8 in coverage regularly
4) And Eli and the WRs (and Mac) have to draw up and rely on quick, short routes or risk a catastrophic play
5) And when the ball does get beyond the LOS, there are 7 or 8 guys waiting to fill within 20 yards
6) And on top of all that, going back to 1, Ds are getting pressure on, sacking and hitting Eli all day, which is a very bad outcome in and of itself.

Yes, the RBs suck, too and are part of the problem. And yes, there have been a few errant or dropped passes. But the reason this team can't crack 20 fucking points is the OL. Plain and simple - it is historically bad and causing the rest of the O to jam up entirely.


This is the point, everything is realtive and stats don't tell the whole story. This is a very sloppy report, probably more opinion. When you get to the QB in 2.5-3 seconds rushing 3 or 4, thats more effective than blitzing and getting there in the same time. Now the D has 7 or 8 playing against our 4 receivers. Eli has no where to go. If the OL wasn't so crappy it could give Eli 5 seconds against 3 or 4 man lines. I would bet the teams getting to the QB in 2.63 seconds are blitzing at least on player.
RE: RE: yes more deep routes  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/24/2017 10:57 am : link
In comment 13611260 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 13611257 mdc1 said:


Quote:


the separation issue seems very real on these garbage 5 yard high school league routes (McAdoo).


Not surprising. Outside of Beckham, we have no speed or quickness. Adding Marshall and Ellison only exacerbated the issue.


This is bad information almost entirely.
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