You seem to ignore ALOT of the posts that counter yours. Lantern and McDermott are tradeable assets that could net more picks. Forcfucks sake man. A mid 20's pick means that much to you that you're completely blind to everything else? Damn man
So we can't trade Melo for anything, but we'll trade 2 guys (1 who will opt out and another who will get 3-5 times more expensive) for more picks?
They don't have no trade clauses. And here's a bit of a hint for you - it's not uncommon for contenders to add reinforcements at the deadline without concern for whether those players will be on the roster beyond that season. You just have a misunderstood view of the NBA trade market.
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
Who's talking about holding onto him until the deadline? (I keep having to respond to these strawman arguments.) I'm just saying you can't be so frightened by the prospect of him walking through the door at training camp that you trade him for what could easily be nothing but a 2nd round pick 12 months from today. The reports of Melo expanding his list came out yesterday(?) and he was traded 24 hours later. We couldn't have waited for this deal a little while longer? I never for one second thought that the Knicks were getting a haul. However, outside of the prospect of paying Doug McDermott 3-5 times what he's making now, we might end up with zero long term pieces out of trading Melo. That's nothing to get excited about.
You do realize that Melo still hadn't waived his NTC, right? He expanded his list but it's not like that was a formal process where that list became an amendment to his contract. How do you know that he didn't tell the Knicks that he would expand his list but it was conditional on him being before the start of camp on Monday?
The other bit of news that had come out yesterday was that Melo was pushing the Knicks hard to get a deal done before the start of camp - do you really think Melo just expanded his list without some sort of hammer?
You are completely blind to the fact that Melo making 28 million has absolutely no value. There is no need to bring him to training camp. This is the best they were going to get, Cleveland offered Shump and Frye, Houston wouldn't even trade Gordon and ariza. He was not going to go to Portland. So that's it no other competing team has interest or space to take him. Who cares if Knicks have kanter or Mcdermont on the roster in 2 years. This trade all but guarantees a top 5 pick next rather than a pick 8-12. If we end up getting a top 3 pick we are talking about a true franchise player added to our young nucleus. Kanter hopefully opts out after this year and Mcdermont gets traded at some point for a second rounder or you let him walk. If you can trade lee and Thomas during the season, you have
Porzingis
Hernangomez
Frenchy
2018 lottery pick
2018 early second round pick
Dotson
This is a good young core to build off of. 2018-2019 season should be better but prob still a late lottery team. Then 2020 you have tons of cap space with young improving team that should be able to attract free agwnts.
The "aging player" argument has always really annoyed me.
Not that it's necessarily wrong, but it only seems to apply to Melo.
Last time I checked, Chris Paul isn't exactly a spring chicken, makes a shit ton of money, was also a disgruntled player that foruhis way off a team, and has his own injury concerns. And he netted a fucking haul AND a first round pick.
Now, I'm fine with this trade (if nothing more than I'm just sick of seeing emo-Melo on this team any longer). And I understand that the return that teams get for players is affected by so many variables. And stop using PH as an example why teams don't give up firsts anymore. IND had a MUCH better deal offered but didn't pull the trigger. Then they eventually went forward with that garbage trade the PG.
I don't know if it is a NY bias, an inept NY front office, or the total botch job they did on the Melo situation...but I'm so sick of the valueless, aging star shit that only seems to apply to Melo. I can almost guarantee that Melo will be damn good when playing on a team that isn't the poster child for dysfunction.
Not that it's necessarily wrong, but it only seems to apply to Melo.
Last time I checked, Chris Paul isn't exactly a spring chicken, makes a shit ton of money, was also a disgruntled player that foruhis way off a team, and has his own injury concerns. And he netted a fucking haul AND a first round pick.
Now, I'm fine with this trade (if nothing more than I'm just sick of seeing emo-Melo on this team any longer). And I understand that the return that teams get for players is affected by so many variables. And stop using PH as an example why teams don't give up firsts anymore. IND had a MUCH better deal offered but didn't pull the trigger. Then they eventually went forward with that garbage trade the PG.
I don't know if it is a NY bias, an inept NY front office, or the total botch job they did on the Melo situation...but I'm so sick of the valueless, aging star shit that only seems to apply to Melo. I can almost guarantee that Melo will be damn good when playing on a team that isn't the poster child for dysfunction.
Chris Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>Melo. Absolutely dreadful comparison.
I don't disagree that CP is better than Melo. I don't think that
twenty ">"s was necessary or even accurate but point taken. But put CP on the Knicks and he'd probably look like a worse player also.
Plus, the disparity in returns for each player was pretty drastic. However, point guard is a premium position and there was a team that felt they were a player away. Like I said, timing is everything. All it takes is one team. A lot of variables need to come together.
Take away the NTC and the Phil botch-job, and Melo should have netted a lot more. That killed us.
You are completely blind to the fact that Melo making 28 million has absolutely no value. There is no need to bring him to training camp. This is the best they were going to get, Cleveland offered Shump and Frye, Houston wouldn't even trade Gordon and ariza. He was not going to go to Portland. So that's it no other competing team has interest or space to take him. Who cares if Knicks have kanter or Mcdermont on the roster in 2 years. This trade all but guarantees a top 5 pick next rather than a pick 8-12. If we end up getting a top 3 pick we are talking about a true franchise player added to our young nucleus. Kanter hopefully opts out after this year and Mcdermont gets traded at some point for a second rounder or you let him walk. If you can trade lee and Thomas during the season, you have
Some of you are equating "don't be afraid of Melo showing up for camp" with "if we wait, we'll get 10 first round picks for him". I'm not blind about Melo's value. I just wanted a first round pick, regardless of where it was. (A first round pick is still better than Chicago's 2nd rounder, even if there's not a lot of difference in the spots.) Some seem to be arguing he has no value while others are saying he does have value because Kanter and McDermott will at the very least be tradeable assets. I have doubts about their attractiveness as deadline trading chips, especially if their value is in any way dependent on how they look with a shit Knicks team.
I'm not even arguing this isn't the best trade they could make. I'm arguing that they could've waited a little while to make it unless I'm unaware of a list of players who've blown their knees out on the first day of training camp. Who knows... maybe the deals were already agreed to and were simply awaiting Melo's expansion of his list. For me, these 2 players (especially with their contract situations) are nothing to get excited about now or as potential chips.
BTW, I was fairly confident the Knicks were going to be GOD-awful even if Melo somehow stuck around.
You are a fan who is erroneously mistaking their beliefs as fact. To be even more blunt, you have no idea how NBA trades work, and have abundantly demonstrated that you know even less about trade value or leverage.
Thus, your fact-free tirades that make less and less sense as you defend a completely indefensible belief, are a waste of everyone's time.
Are we clear now?
RE: Since the nicer posters have not gotten through
You are a fan who is erroneously mistaking their beliefs as fact. To be even more blunt, you have no idea how NBA trades work, and have abundantly demonstrated that you know even less about trade value or leverage.
Thus, your fact-free tirades that make less and less sense as you defend a completely indefensible belief, are a waste of everyone's time.
Are we clear now?
+1
Rich, are you saying that the Knicks wouldn't have gotten a better
deal (potentially) if they had waited a little longer? Has does this factor into trade value or leverage?
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
You are completely blind to the fact that Melo making 28 million has absolutely no value. There is no need to bring him to training camp. This is the best they were going to get, Cleveland offered Shump and Frye, Houston wouldn't even trade Gordon and ariza. He was not going to go to Portland. So that's it no other competing team has interest or space to take him. Who cares if Knicks have kanter or Mcdermont on the roster in 2 years. This trade all but guarantees a top 5 pick next rather than a pick 8-12. If we end up getting a top 3 pick we are talking about a true franchise player added to our young nucleus. Kanter hopefully opts out after this year and Mcdermont gets traded at some point for a second rounder or you let him walk. If you can trade lee and Thomas during the season, you have
Some of you are equating "don't be afraid of Melo showing up for camp" with "if we wait, we'll get 10 first round picks for him". I'm not blind about Melo's value. I just wanted a first round pick, regardless of where it was. (A first round pick is still better than Chicago's 2nd rounder, even if there's not a lot of difference in the spots.) Some seem to be arguing he has no value while others are saying he does have value because Kanter and McDermott will at the very least be tradeable assets. I have doubts about their attractiveness as deadline trading chips, especially if their value is in any way dependent on how they look with a shit Knicks team.
I'm not even arguing this isn't the best trade they could make. I'm arguing that they could've waited a little while to make it unless I'm unaware of a list of players who've blown their knees out on the first day of training camp. Who knows... maybe the deals were already agreed to and were simply awaiting Melo's expansion of his list. For me, these 2 players (especially with their contract situations) are nothing to get excited about now or as potential chips.
BTW, I was fairly confident the Knicks were going to be GOD-awful even if Melo somehow stuck around.
Holy shit. You are abysmal. You don't care WHERE the first rounder was or even the fact that it would be only a couple of picks ahead of Chicagos 2nd rounder? You just wanted a first rounder? For the love of God, I've heard everything now. Good night. You should be REALLY embarrassed at your exhibition tonight.
RE: Rich, are you saying that the Knicks wouldn't have gotten a better
deal (potentially) if they had waited a little longer? Has does this factor into trade value or leverage?
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
Or maybe he regresses more. Or maybe he gets injured. The chance of his trade value declining far outweighs any slim chance that his trade value increases. Haven't they been trying to trade him for over a year now? How many teams were knocking down the door last trade deadline? He's somehow going to be more valuable a year later? And how about the fact that keeping him around likely adds to more meaningless wins? They go from top 5 to maybe the tenth pick? Or worse?
RE: Rich, are you saying that the Knicks wouldn't have gotten a better
deal (potentially) if they had waited a little longer? Has does this factor into trade value or leverage?
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
Maybe he told them to begin with that he was expanding his list until the start of training camp only and then he was locking in on his NTC. You're right that he had the clear need to be off the team. He also held all the cards as it related to that. Yes, the Knicks could have called his bluff, but to what end?
Do you really not think Melo expanded his list without a countdown clock attached to it? Everything is quid pro quo, everything.
He had the no-trade, he had the final say if he was going to be here or not and when. And Phil's buffoonery made that even worse.
And he didn't have as much value as some people are overstating, but despite that being made apparent, we're gonna conclude the Knicks botched something because they didn't get the return you fantasized about. A 33 year old beat up all-offense, limited athlete, declining player in an option year with a $28m price tag. What a catch that guy would be for any team.
RE: Rich, are you saying that the Knicks wouldn't have gotten a better
deal (potentially) if they had waited a little longer? Has does this factor into trade value or leverage?
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
That's correct. Too many fans on this site have deluded themselves into thinking that they MUST know more about NOW trades than those making them. No one was going to offer the Knicks even close to value.
The reason is simple. The Knicks had zero leverage. Thus, their goal was NOT to maximize value, but to minimize the future damage to the cap and team.
This is no different than if someone is selling their car to a dealer. You won't get the full value for the car- the dealer knows you are selling because you have to, and has no incentive to cut into their own profit. Thus, you get the best deal you can make and limit the damage.
Why should the Knicks add a player who will be on the team in 3 years when no one is offering a meaningful player? That is adding another problem when there is no need to.
First round picks are high value currency in the cap age. No one is giving one up when the other team has to move the player.
RE: RE: Rich, are you saying that the Knicks wouldn't have gotten a better
deal (potentially) if they had waited a little longer? Has does this factor into trade value or leverage?
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
Or maybe he regresses more. Or maybe he gets injured. The chance of his trade value declining far outweighs any slim chance that his trade value increases. Haven't they been trying to trade him for over a year now? How many teams were knocking down the door last trade deadline? He's somehow going to be more valuable a year later? And how about the fact that keeping him around likely adds to more meaningless wins? They go from top 5 to maybe the tenth pick? Or worse?
Don't disagree with anything you said. It would be a risk to hold onto Melo also.
Like I said, I'm fine with the trade. I can see the argument for holding on to Melo for the hopes of a better deal. But it's a high risk move with a very low percentage of it actually happening. I, for one, believe that Melo is a more valuable player than he's being portrayed but clearly not as valuable as some fans believe. And trade value isn't just attributed the the level of play either. Lots of other factors that all were a negative to the Knicks in this scenario.
Westchester or cut:
Artis
Hayes
Jaramaz
Kornet
XRM
Sessions/Jack
Kornet signed a 2 way contract back in July Teams will have a 15 man roster plus 2 2-way players. I think it's a max of 45 days the 2 2-way can spend w/their NBA team w/the majority of the time spent w/the minor league club.
Carmelo very similar to Vince Carter, great individual offensive talents who are not team players and, invariably, you don't win championships with them on your team. When Phil came to NY and, the first thing he did was to make resigning Carmelo a priority, I knew that the Knicks were going nowhere under his guidance.
04 Pistons aside, you need a top ~5 player and a lot more to have a shot. Melo was never really in that class of player IMO. But if he had been on LeBron's team he'd have won a title. There are lots of guys who will push for the HOF who wouldnt win titles if they werent with all timers. Kyrie and Love. Bosh. Parker and Manu. Melo was better than all of them IMO, or at least right there with the best of them.
You are a fan who is erroneously mistaking their beliefs as fact. To be even more blunt, you have no idea how NBA trades work, and have abundantly demonstrated that you know even less about trade value or leverage.
Thus, your fact-free tirades that make less and less sense as you defend a completely indefensible belief, are a waste of everyone's time.
Are we clear now?
Jeez, an internet asshole... you should be proud of yourself. If you're incapable of disagreeing with someone (and that's all I was doing, no tirades involved) without resorting to horseshit you wouldn't say to their face, then don't even bother. I don't think I've ever read a more batshit insane response to someone voicing mild displeasure. One would think I said burn down the Garden and everyone in it. It truly makes me believe you're a miserable human being.
How is the Knicks waiting until Monday to make this trade indefensible? The ONLY argument I've seen against that here is that Melo put some clock on his approval/expansion of list. What if the Knicks refused to be bound by that clock? Will he somehow force their hand by showing up and staying at a place he has even less interest in being than the Knicks have in keeping him? (According to Pete Vecsey, Melo already told them he wasn't showing up to camp.) Do you truly believe this deal was going somewhere in the next 36 hours? Your argument that we were never going to get Melo's true value, so we had to jump on this as if it were the greatest deal in the world makes makes absolutely no sense. We ALL agree about the Knicks leverage and Melo's value. The sole purpose of this deal appears to be clearing cap space. While I had zero interest in Ryan Anderson (or anyone like that) and never had any expectation of getting young, cheap talent in return, cap space on this team is FAR less important than getting a first round draft pick. That's just my opinion. No one else has to agree with that. (And apparently some people don't understand that a first round pick is more valuable than a second round pick.)
Like I've already said, it's entirely possible this is the best we could do. But why not wait until Monday? Were the Thunder going to offer less? Were they going to change their minds? Of course not, this is a terrific deal for them. I don't see how that is even remotely controversial.
You or anyone else is free to disagree with me, but it's not as if there's widespread approval of this deal from people who cover the sport. But we're just discussing a basketball trade here... no need for it to escalate beyond that.
Glad the Knicks are not stuck in neutral with Melo,
i think thie issue is that this WAS melo's true value. Why do you think we are getting a deal equal to what a team paid for a Paul george (i like this better then that anyway), Butler, etc.. Melo is 33, has a NTC, and is a tough player to integrate into your offense. You are not getting some amazing deal for him. NBA teams are just not going to overpay for past their prime players. Im not trying to be an ass here, i just dont think you have a good grasp on what teams are willing to give up for players in this current NBA. Teams will pay up for an in his prime star who is under control for at least 2 seasons (Kyrie), but thats about it these days.
I wanted to let a day sink in before gathering my thoughts
I dont care for the trade. It still smacks of a dump to me unless we're turning Kanter or McBuckets into a longer term future asset in the short term, or unless we think Kanter's weight loss will make him a passable defender and want to sign him long term.
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
I agree with Italianju. Knicks fans have been clamoring to get rid of Melo because he's relatively old, a ball-stopper and plays no D. Why would GMs give up major assets to get someone that a team's own fans are dying to get rid of? We'll never know exactly how the deal went down in terms of leverage, etc., but it's time to move on from Melo either way.
RE: I wanted to let a day sink in before gathering my thoughts
I dont care for the trade. It still smacks of a dump to me unless we're turning Kanter or McBuckets into a longer term future asset in the short term, or unless we think Kanter's weight loss will make him a passable defender and want to sign him long term.
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
It kind of is a dump. Phil poisoned the situation and made it rather impossible to keep him around. If the seller doesn't value the item they're selling, why should the buyer?
RE: I wanted to let a day sink in before gathering my thoughts
I dont care for the trade. It still smacks of a dump to me unless we're turning Kanter or McBuckets into a longer term future asset in the short term, or unless we think Kanter's weight loss will make him a passable defender and want to sign him long term.
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
I think it just comes to two questions. 1. Do you think they could have gotten more?
2. Do you think they needed to trade Melo before the year started?
I am a no and then a yes. The Knicks had 0 leverage, and other teams knew that. If you read through the Woj article, this was actually by far the best option since Melo refused to go to Portland. Other packages were Shump/Frye (which would have been hilarious) and that Anderson nonsense.
Moving Melo now was the right move. He was good enough to win them more games than they should, and would have been just enough of a malcontent to hurt team chemistry. They can officially turn the page to the KP era. That's a big win.
I agree I'm not thrilled with the return, but we did get two 25 year old NBA players who are worthy of a rotation spot (and on short term deals) and a pick in the 30s. It certainly could have been worse.
Your other points are fair though. It's a strange roster with a lot of overlap. I bet Noah gets stretched next offseason, but no reason to do it now.
Right now my focus this year is 1. Developing the youth. 2. Showcasing guys.
KOQ/Lee remain good trade bait. Kanter is also good trade bait potentially. All three are helpful players to an NBA contender.
I'd keep Dougie Buckets to see if he can stretch the floor/be our new Steve Novak.
The weirdest new issue we have is the logjam at PG. Obviously Frank is there and needs to play, at least a little. But Sessions was brought in to be the starter, and Baker will play, but then why bring in Jarret Jack? We're at a roster crunch and he seems the most likely to get the axe.
Yesterday I was upset that they didn't get Ferguson in
the deal. But,24 hours later,I'm warming up to it. First,the term"addition by subtraction" applies here as it was time for Melo to go.The Knicks couldn't move forward w/him on the roster. Second, if Hornacek runs the offense he ran in Phoenix,McBuckets will thrive. I've always liked him but felt he was utilized ineffectively in Chi/OKC. I think we may have gotten him at the right time. Kanter lost a lot of weight over the summer as I believe OKC management told him he needs to be more mobile. I think he stays in the same role as he did in OKC,coming in for Willie.Both guys are 25,still have upside & have contracts that end this/next year. It'll give us a chance to see if McBuckets fits as he'll be a RFA next year so we'll have to chance to bring him back if he fits. Kanter has a player option for $18 mill next year so I think he'll be back,good or bad. I'm excited about this year-not because we're playoff bound,but we have a good nucleus of young,talented players that can develop while the tank is on. We're no longer running in quicksand!
I think it just comes to two questions. 1. Do you think they could have gotten more?
2. Do you think they needed to trade Melo before the year started?
I am a no and then a yes. The Knicks had 0 leverage, and other teams knew that. If you read through the Woj article, this was actually by far the best option since Melo refused to go to Portland. Other packages were Shump/Frye (which would have been hilarious) and that Anderson nonsense.
Moving Melo now was the right move. He was good enough to win them more games than they should, and would have been just enough of a malcontent to hurt team chemistry. They can officially turn the page to the KP era. That's a big win.
I agree I'm not thrilled with the return, but we did get two 25 year old NBA players who are worthy of a rotation spot (and on short term deals) and a pick in the 30s. It certainly could have been worse.
Your other points are fair though. It's a strange roster with a lot of overlap. I bet Noah gets stretched next offseason, but no reason to do it now.
Right now my focus this year is 1. Developing the youth. 2. Showcasing guys.
KOQ/Lee remain good trade bait. Kanter is also good trade bait potentially. All three are helpful players to an NBA contender.
I'd keep Dougie Buckets to see if he can stretch the floor/be our new Steve Novak.
The weirdest new issue we have is the logjam at PG. Obviously Frank is there and needs to play, at least a little. But Sessions was brought in to be the starter, and Baker will play, but then why bring in Jarret Jack? We're at a roster crunch and he seems the most likely to get the axe.
I cant say whether they could have gotten more today -- i have no idea how they scout the Thunder players and whether they want to pay them. I dont think Melo needed to be traded before the season, but all things considered, if you're moving him then sooner the better. Also he just added OKC so I wouldnt assume that he was always a no on POR.
There are too many useful NBA players on this roster who a rebuilding team doesnt need. Noah is untradable, but Lee, KOQ, McBuckets, Kanter, and Kuz (rumored interest around the league) should all be shopped. Trade 1-2 to get a non-lottery #1 in the next few drafts. Some of them are pretty cheap.
but signing Melo to a no-trade with a trade salary bump along with locking in an over-the-hill Noah are clearly near the top of the list. One has to wonder how much more we could have gotten for Melo if we had the right to deal him anywhere, as on teams with normal GMs.
As far as Melo is concerned, I have given this some thought, too. No doubt Melo is still a world-class offensive player and spectacular athlete who draws multiple defenders constantly, and his rank belongs much higher than in some of the nonsensical polls.
But, here are the things for me:
--He is still a tweener who plays his best ball at the 4, but takes away an inside rebounding/defense spot by doing so. At the 3, he needs help all of the time on defense.
--It isn't at all clear to me that he can stay healthy, especially over a span of more than one season. Playing inside as much as he does, and using body fakes as much as he does, he gets landed on, a lot. He has already had several shoulder injuries, and over time shoulders get worse, not better.
--And, of course, the refs have never protected him the way they protected most first line stars. Does that change on a team with other stars? We will have to see. If they don't, it just adds to the injury risk.
I put the over/under of times over the next two years where Melo is either:
1)playing hurt in ways that kill his shooting percentage, or
2)missing several weeks in a row,
I'm not saying "straight out tank" is the strategy, but part of a bigger picture. The teams to emulate going forward are the Sixers and Nets.
Both have cleared their caps of bad contracts. The Sixers will eventually have to pay some of their young guys- but they left space for that.
Both teams know that it will be VERY difficult to attract star level FA in the near term. So what they have done well is to "rent out" their cap space to take on a bad contract from other teams- and require the other team to give them picks for getting rid of the contracts.
What the Knicks have done with the Melo deal is to set themselves up short term to be a team that has the cap space to take on a bad contract for picks. Even with Zinger, they are not going to get stars to sign with them for a couple years until Zinger emerges as a true star himself and the bad memories of poor management fade among the players.
Therefore, when Kanter opts out next summer, and assuming that the Knicks can move KOQ, Lee and or Thomas for cap space themselves, they can be as much as $40M under the cap next summer.
They won't get any of the stars unless LBJ decides that he wants Zinger and 2 more to build a super team (which doesn't work under the cap anyway). So, the Knicks can use that space to get a team that is mid level or worse, but has no cap space (looking at you Charlotte and Detroit) to trade a bad contract to the Knicks- but send it with their 1st rounder.
Until the Knicks can get Noah off the books, they are stuck in limbo. He likely can't be traded until he becomes an expiring deal himself in 2 years, so the Knicks can become a team that takes bad contract that expire at the same time as Noah- or a year earlier than Noah's- and collect picks and cheap players on the roster until all those bad deals come off the books.
Zinger will need a mega deal by that point, but the cap will be free enough that they can add a star, maybe 2 in FA- and will hopefully will have drafted one or two high picks, combined with picks in the teens to be the role players a winning team needs- at rookie contract prices- to move from nothing to something within 3 years.
THAT is what Melo was moved for what they got. If you can't wrap your head around that- then sorry, you just don't get it.
I'm not saying "straight out tank" is the strategy, but part of a bigger picture. The teams to emulate going forward are the Sixers and Nets.
Both have cleared their caps of bad contracts. The Sixers will eventually have to pay some of their young guys- but they left space for that.
Both teams know that it will be VERY difficult to attract star level FA in the near term. So what they have done well is to "rent out" their cap space to take on a bad contract from other teams- and require the other team to give them picks for getting rid of the contracts.
What the Knicks have done with the Melo deal is to set themselves up short term to be a team that has the cap space to take on a bad contract for picks. Even with Zinger, they are not going to get stars to sign with them for a couple years until Zinger emerges as a true star himself and the bad memories of poor management fade among the players.
Therefore, when Kanter opts out next summer, and assuming that the Knicks can move KOQ, Lee and or Thomas for cap space themselves, they can be as much as $40M under the cap next summer.
They won't get any of the stars unless LBJ decides that he wants Zinger and 2 more to build a super team (which doesn't work under the cap anyway). So, the Knicks can use that space to get a team that is mid level or worse, but has no cap space (looking at you Charlotte and Detroit) to trade a bad contract to the Knicks- but send it with their 1st rounder.
Until the Knicks can get Noah off the books, they are stuck in limbo. He likely can't be traded until he becomes an expiring deal himself in 2 years, so the Knicks can become a team that takes bad contract that expire at the same time as Noah- or a year earlier than Noah's- and collect picks and cheap players on the roster until all those bad deals come off the books.
Zinger will need a mega deal by that point, but the cap will be free enough that they can add a star, maybe 2 in FA- and will hopefully will have drafted one or two high picks, combined with picks in the teens to be the role players a winning team needs- at rookie contract prices- to move from nothing to something within 3 years.
THAT is what Melo was moved for what they got. If you can't wrap your head around that- then sorry, you just don't get it.
Your post is condescending, which is weird because the premise is that the trade is fine because something Nets/Sixers. Except we plainly are not following the Sixers model. We arent even emulating the Nets Russell deal. There is zero evidence we're renting out cap space to gain futures. THJR 100% doesnt fit that model.
I would have tanked and rented cap space. But I think the people looking to analyze any Knicks transaction in terms of how it advances a Sixers style process are being silly. We arent doing that.
I dont care for the trade. It still smacks of a dump to me unless we're turning Kanter or McBuckets into a longer term future asset in the short term, or unless we think Kanter's weight loss will make him a passable defender and want to sign him long term.
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
They have to try and move one of Kanter/Noah/KOQ (at least). It's just too many guys who are 100% 5's (KOQ can play some 4) but Willy really can't.
Thought they were rebuilding.
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You seem to ignore ALOT of the posts that counter yours. Lantern and McDermott are tradeable assets that could net more picks. Forcfucks sake man. A mid 20's pick means that much to you that you're completely blind to everything else? Damn man
So we can't trade Melo for anything, but we'll trade 2 guys (1 who will opt out and another who will get 3-5 times more expensive) for more picks?
They don't have no trade clauses. And here's a bit of a hint for you - it's not uncommon for contenders to add reinforcements at the deadline without concern for whether those players will be on the roster beyond that season. You just have a misunderstood view of the NBA trade market.
Thought they were rebuilding.
Chicago didn't do the deal. The Knicks traded with Oklahoma City.
Just to point out the obvious.
Some posters seem to be ignoring that obvious point.
If the are not on this team in 2 years its because their contracts expired and that too comes with a lot of value in the NBA.
Either way the Knicks have some value in the two players. Its not getting "nothing"
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Chicago do this deal?
Thought they were rebuilding.
Chicago didn't do the deal. The Knicks traded with Oklahoma City.
Duh.
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Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
Who's talking about holding onto him until the deadline? (I keep having to respond to these strawman arguments.) I'm just saying you can't be so frightened by the prospect of him walking through the door at training camp that you trade him for what could easily be nothing but a 2nd round pick 12 months from today. The reports of Melo expanding his list came out yesterday(?) and he was traded 24 hours later. We couldn't have waited for this deal a little while longer? I never for one second thought that the Knicks were getting a haul. However, outside of the prospect of paying Doug McDermott 3-5 times what he's making now, we might end up with zero long term pieces out of trading Melo. That's nothing to get excited about.
You do realize that Melo still hadn't waived his NTC, right? He expanded his list but it's not like that was a formal process where that list became an amendment to his contract. How do you know that he didn't tell the Knicks that he would expand his list but it was conditional on him being before the start of camp on Monday?
The other bit of news that had come out yesterday was that Melo was pushing the Knicks hard to get a deal done before the start of camp - do you really think Melo just expanded his list without some sort of hammer?
Porzingis
Hernangomez
Frenchy
2018 lottery pick
2018 early second round pick
Dotson
This is a good young core to build off of. 2018-2019 season should be better but prob still a late lottery team. Then 2020 you have tons of cap space with young improving team that should be able to attract free agwnts.
Last time I checked, Chris Paul isn't exactly a spring chicken, makes a shit ton of money, was also a disgruntled player that foruhis way off a team, and has his own injury concerns. And he netted a fucking haul AND a first round pick.
Now, I'm fine with this trade (if nothing more than I'm just sick of seeing emo-Melo on this team any longer). And I understand that the return that teams get for players is affected by so many variables. And stop using PH as an example why teams don't give up firsts anymore. IND had a MUCH better deal offered but didn't pull the trigger. Then they eventually went forward with that garbage trade the PG.
I don't know if it is a NY bias, an inept NY front office, or the total botch job they did on the Melo situation...but I'm so sick of the valueless, aging star shit that only seems to apply to Melo. I can almost guarantee that Melo will be damn good when playing on a team that isn't the poster child for dysfunction.
Last time I checked, Chris Paul isn't exactly a spring chicken, makes a shit ton of money, was also a disgruntled player that foruhis way off a team, and has his own injury concerns. And he netted a fucking haul AND a first round pick.
Now, I'm fine with this trade (if nothing more than I'm just sick of seeing emo-Melo on this team any longer). And I understand that the return that teams get for players is affected by so many variables. And stop using PH as an example why teams don't give up firsts anymore. IND had a MUCH better deal offered but didn't pull the trigger. Then they eventually went forward with that garbage trade the PG.
I don't know if it is a NY bias, an inept NY front office, or the total botch job they did on the Melo situation...but I'm so sick of the valueless, aging star shit that only seems to apply to Melo. I can almost guarantee that Melo will be damn good when playing on a team that isn't the poster child for dysfunction.
Chris Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>Melo. Absolutely dreadful comparison.
Plus, the disparity in returns for each player was pretty drastic. However, point guard is a premium position and there was a team that felt they were a player away. Like I said, timing is everything. All it takes is one team. A lot of variables need to come together.
Take away the NTC and the Phil botch-job, and Melo should have netted a lot more. That killed us.
Some of you are equating "don't be afraid of Melo showing up for camp" with "if we wait, we'll get 10 first round picks for him". I'm not blind about Melo's value. I just wanted a first round pick, regardless of where it was. (A first round pick is still better than Chicago's 2nd rounder, even if there's not a lot of difference in the spots.) Some seem to be arguing he has no value while others are saying he does have value because Kanter and McDermott will at the very least be tradeable assets. I have doubts about their attractiveness as deadline trading chips, especially if their value is in any way dependent on how they look with a shit Knicks team.
I'm not even arguing this isn't the best trade they could make. I'm arguing that they could've waited a little while to make it unless I'm unaware of a list of players who've blown their knees out on the first day of training camp. Who knows... maybe the deals were already agreed to and were simply awaiting Melo's expansion of his list. For me, these 2 players (especially with their contract situations) are nothing to get excited about now or as potential chips.
BTW, I was fairly confident the Knicks were going to be GOD-awful even if Melo somehow stuck around.
You are a fan who is erroneously mistaking their beliefs as fact. To be even more blunt, you have no idea how NBA trades work, and have abundantly demonstrated that you know even less about trade value or leverage.
Thus, your fact-free tirades that make less and less sense as you defend a completely indefensible belief, are a waste of everyone's time.
Are we clear now?
You are a fan who is erroneously mistaking their beliefs as fact. To be even more blunt, you have no idea how NBA trades work, and have abundantly demonstrated that you know even less about trade value or leverage.
Thus, your fact-free tirades that make less and less sense as you defend a completely indefensible belief, are a waste of everyone's time.
Are we clear now?
+1
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
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You are completely blind to the fact that Melo making 28 million has absolutely no value. There is no need to bring him to training camp. This is the best they were going to get, Cleveland offered Shump and Frye, Houston wouldn't even trade Gordon and ariza. He was not going to go to Portland. So that's it no other competing team has interest or space to take him. Who cares if Knicks have kanter or Mcdermont on the roster in 2 years. This trade all but guarantees a top 5 pick next rather than a pick 8-12. If we end up getting a top 3 pick we are talking about a true franchise player added to our young nucleus. Kanter hopefully opts out after this year and Mcdermont gets traded at some point for a second rounder or you let him walk. If you can trade lee and Thomas during the season, you have
Some of you are equating "don't be afraid of Melo showing up for camp" with "if we wait, we'll get 10 first round picks for him". I'm not blind about Melo's value. I just wanted a first round pick, regardless of where it was. (A first round pick is still better than Chicago's 2nd rounder, even if there's not a lot of difference in the spots.) Some seem to be arguing he has no value while others are saying he does have value because Kanter and McDermott will at the very least be tradeable assets. I have doubts about their attractiveness as deadline trading chips, especially if their value is in any way dependent on how they look with a shit Knicks team.
I'm not even arguing this isn't the best trade they could make. I'm arguing that they could've waited a little while to make it unless I'm unaware of a list of players who've blown their knees out on the first day of training camp. Who knows... maybe the deals were already agreed to and were simply awaiting Melo's expansion of his list. For me, these 2 players (especially with their contract situations) are nothing to get excited about now or as potential chips.
BTW, I was fairly confident the Knicks were going to be GOD-awful even if Melo somehow stuck around.
Holy shit. You are abysmal. You don't care WHERE the first rounder was or even the fact that it would be only a couple of picks ahead of Chicagos 2nd rounder? You just wanted a first rounder? For the love of God, I've heard everything now. Good night. You should be REALLY embarrassed at your exhibition tonight.
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
Or maybe he regresses more. Or maybe he gets injured. The chance of his trade value declining far outweighs any slim chance that his trade value increases. Haven't they been trying to trade him for over a year now? How many teams were knocking down the door last trade deadline? He's somehow going to be more valuable a year later? And how about the fact that keeping him around likely adds to more meaningless wins? They go from top 5 to maybe the tenth pick? Or worse?
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
Maybe he told them to begin with that he was expanding his list until the start of training camp only and then he was locking in on his NTC. You're right that he had the clear need to be off the team. He also held all the cards as it related to that. Yes, the Knicks could have called his bluff, but to what end?
Do you really not think Melo expanded his list without a countdown clock attached to it? Everything is quid pro quo, everything.
And he didn't have as much value as some people are overstating, but despite that being made apparent, we're gonna conclude the Knicks botched something because they didn't get the return you fantasized about. A 33 year old beat up all-offense, limited athlete, declining player in an option year with a $28m price tag. What a catch that guy would be for any team.
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
That's correct. Too many fans on this site have deluded themselves into thinking that they MUST know more about NOW trades than those making them. No one was going to offer the Knicks even close to value.
The reason is simple. The Knicks had zero leverage. Thus, their goal was NOT to maximize value, but to minimize the future damage to the cap and team.
This is no different than if someone is selling their car to a dealer. You won't get the full value for the car- the dealer knows you are selling because you have to, and has no incentive to cut into their own profit. Thus, you get the best deal you can make and limit the damage.
Why should the Knicks add a player who will be on the team in 3 years when no one is offering a meaningful player? That is adding another problem when there is no need to.
First round picks are high value currency in the cap age. No one is giving one up when the other team has to move the player.
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deal (potentially) if they had waited a little longer? Has does this factor into trade value or leverage?
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
Or maybe he regresses more. Or maybe he gets injured. The chance of his trade value declining far outweighs any slim chance that his trade value increases. Haven't they been trying to trade him for over a year now? How many teams were knocking down the door last trade deadline? He's somehow going to be more valuable a year later? And how about the fact that keeping him around likely adds to more meaningless wins? They go from top 5 to maybe the tenth pick? Or worse?
Don't disagree with anything you said. It would be a risk to hold onto Melo also.
PF: KP, Beasley, KOQ
SF: Thomas, McDermott, Kuz
SG: THJr, Lee, Dotson
PG: Baker, Frank, Sessions/Jack
Westchester or cut:
Artis
Hayes
Jaramaz
Kornet
XRM
Sessions/Jack
Kornet signed a 2 way contract back in July Teams will have a 15 man roster plus 2 2-way players. I think it's a max of 45 days the 2 2-way can spend w/their NBA team w/the majority of the time spent w/the minor league club.
04 Pistons aside, you need a top ~5 player and a lot more to have a shot. Melo was never really in that class of player IMO. But if he had been on LeBron's team he'd have won a title. There are lots of guys who will push for the HOF who wouldnt win titles if they werent with all timers. Kyrie and Love. Bosh. Parker and Manu. Melo was better than all of them IMO, or at least right there with the best of them.
...this season. Ho-hum, what's new?
...this season. Ho-hum, what's new?
umm good? this draft is loaded
You are a fan who is erroneously mistaking their beliefs as fact. To be even more blunt, you have no idea how NBA trades work, and have abundantly demonstrated that you know even less about trade value or leverage.
Thus, your fact-free tirades that make less and less sense as you defend a completely indefensible belief, are a waste of everyone's time.
Are we clear now?
Jeez, an internet asshole... you should be proud of yourself. If you're incapable of disagreeing with someone (and that's all I was doing, no tirades involved) without resorting to horseshit you wouldn't say to their face, then don't even bother. I don't think I've ever read a more batshit insane response to someone voicing mild displeasure. One would think I said burn down the Garden and everyone in it. It truly makes me believe you're a miserable human being.
How is the Knicks waiting until Monday to make this trade indefensible? The ONLY argument I've seen against that here is that Melo put some clock on his approval/expansion of list. What if the Knicks refused to be bound by that clock? Will he somehow force their hand by showing up and staying at a place he has even less interest in being than the Knicks have in keeping him? (According to Pete Vecsey, Melo already told them he wasn't showing up to camp.) Do you truly believe this deal was going somewhere in the next 36 hours? Your argument that we were never going to get Melo's true value, so we had to jump on this as if it were the greatest deal in the world makes makes absolutely no sense. We ALL agree about the Knicks leverage and Melo's value. The sole purpose of this deal appears to be clearing cap space. While I had zero interest in Ryan Anderson (or anyone like that) and never had any expectation of getting young, cheap talent in return, cap space on this team is FAR less important than getting a first round draft pick. That's just my opinion. No one else has to agree with that. (And apparently some people don't understand that a first round pick is more valuable than a second round pick.)
Like I've already said, it's entirely possible this is the best we could do. But why not wait until Monday? Were the Thunder going to offer less? Were they going to change their minds? Of course not, this is a terrific deal for them. I don't see how that is even remotely controversial.
...this season. Ho-hum, what's new?
That's about 25-30 too many
You or anyone else is free to disagree with me, but it's not as if there's widespread approval of this deal from people who cover the sport. But we're just discussing a basketball trade here... no need for it to escalate beyond that.
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
It kind of is a dump. Phil poisoned the situation and made it rather impossible to keep him around. If the seller doesn't value the item they're selling, why should the buyer?
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
I think it just comes to two questions. 1. Do you think they could have gotten more?
2. Do you think they needed to trade Melo before the year started?
I am a no and then a yes. The Knicks had 0 leverage, and other teams knew that. If you read through the Woj article, this was actually by far the best option since Melo refused to go to Portland. Other packages were Shump/Frye (which would have been hilarious) and that Anderson nonsense.
Moving Melo now was the right move. He was good enough to win them more games than they should, and would have been just enough of a malcontent to hurt team chemistry. They can officially turn the page to the KP era. That's a big win.
I agree I'm not thrilled with the return, but we did get two 25 year old NBA players who are worthy of a rotation spot (and on short term deals) and a pick in the 30s. It certainly could have been worse.
Your other points are fair though. It's a strange roster with a lot of overlap. I bet Noah gets stretched next offseason, but no reason to do it now.
Right now my focus this year is 1. Developing the youth. 2. Showcasing guys.
KOQ/Lee remain good trade bait. Kanter is also good trade bait potentially. All three are helpful players to an NBA contender.
I'd keep Dougie Buckets to see if he can stretch the floor/be our new Steve Novak.
The weirdest new issue we have is the logjam at PG. Obviously Frank is there and needs to play, at least a little. But Sessions was brought in to be the starter, and Baker will play, but then why bring in Jarret Jack? We're at a roster crunch and he seems the most likely to get the axe.
Maybe they can pick up another perimeter player like Sexton/Duval/Doncic.
I think it just comes to two questions. 1. Do you think they could have gotten more?
2. Do you think they needed to trade Melo before the year started?
I am a no and then a yes. The Knicks had 0 leverage, and other teams knew that. If you read through the Woj article, this was actually by far the best option since Melo refused to go to Portland. Other packages were Shump/Frye (which would have been hilarious) and that Anderson nonsense.
Moving Melo now was the right move. He was good enough to win them more games than they should, and would have been just enough of a malcontent to hurt team chemistry. They can officially turn the page to the KP era. That's a big win.
I agree I'm not thrilled with the return, but we did get two 25 year old NBA players who are worthy of a rotation spot (and on short term deals) and a pick in the 30s. It certainly could have been worse.
Your other points are fair though. It's a strange roster with a lot of overlap. I bet Noah gets stretched next offseason, but no reason to do it now.
Right now my focus this year is 1. Developing the youth. 2. Showcasing guys.
KOQ/Lee remain good trade bait. Kanter is also good trade bait potentially. All three are helpful players to an NBA contender.
I'd keep Dougie Buckets to see if he can stretch the floor/be our new Steve Novak.
The weirdest new issue we have is the logjam at PG. Obviously Frank is there and needs to play, at least a little. But Sessions was brought in to be the starter, and Baker will play, but then why bring in Jarret Jack? We're at a roster crunch and he seems the most likely to get the axe.
I cant say whether they could have gotten more today -- i have no idea how they scout the Thunder players and whether they want to pay them. I dont think Melo needed to be traded before the season, but all things considered, if you're moving him then sooner the better. Also he just added OKC so I wouldnt assume that he was always a no on POR.
There are too many useful NBA players on this roster who a rebuilding team doesnt need. Noah is untradable, but Lee, KOQ, McBuckets, Kanter, and Kuz (rumored interest around the league) should all be shopped. Trade 1-2 to get a non-lottery #1 in the next few drafts. Some of them are pretty cheap.
As far as Melo is concerned, I have given this some thought, too. No doubt Melo is still a world-class offensive player and spectacular athlete who draws multiple defenders constantly, and his rank belongs much higher than in some of the nonsensical polls.
But, here are the things for me:
--He is still a tweener who plays his best ball at the 4, but takes away an inside rebounding/defense spot by doing so. At the 3, he needs help all of the time on defense.
--It isn't at all clear to me that he can stay healthy, especially over a span of more than one season. Playing inside as much as he does, and using body fakes as much as he does, he gets landed on, a lot. He has already had several shoulder injuries, and over time shoulders get worse, not better.
--And, of course, the refs have never protected him the way they protected most first line stars. Does that change on a team with other stars? We will have to see. If they don't, it just adds to the injury risk.
I put the over/under of times over the next two years where Melo is either:
1)playing hurt in ways that kill his shooting percentage, or
2)missing several weeks in a row,
at 5. And as he ages, the odds just go higher.
Both have cleared their caps of bad contracts. The Sixers will eventually have to pay some of their young guys- but they left space for that.
Both teams know that it will be VERY difficult to attract star level FA in the near term. So what they have done well is to "rent out" their cap space to take on a bad contract from other teams- and require the other team to give them picks for getting rid of the contracts.
What the Knicks have done with the Melo deal is to set themselves up short term to be a team that has the cap space to take on a bad contract for picks. Even with Zinger, they are not going to get stars to sign with them for a couple years until Zinger emerges as a true star himself and the bad memories of poor management fade among the players.
Therefore, when Kanter opts out next summer, and assuming that the Knicks can move KOQ, Lee and or Thomas for cap space themselves, they can be as much as $40M under the cap next summer.
They won't get any of the stars unless LBJ decides that he wants Zinger and 2 more to build a super team (which doesn't work under the cap anyway). So, the Knicks can use that space to get a team that is mid level or worse, but has no cap space (looking at you Charlotte and Detroit) to trade a bad contract to the Knicks- but send it with their 1st rounder.
Until the Knicks can get Noah off the books, they are stuck in limbo. He likely can't be traded until he becomes an expiring deal himself in 2 years, so the Knicks can become a team that takes bad contract that expire at the same time as Noah- or a year earlier than Noah's- and collect picks and cheap players on the roster until all those bad deals come off the books.
Zinger will need a mega deal by that point, but the cap will be free enough that they can add a star, maybe 2 in FA- and will hopefully will have drafted one or two high picks, combined with picks in the teens to be the role players a winning team needs- at rookie contract prices- to move from nothing to something within 3 years.
THAT is what Melo was moved for what they got. If you can't wrap your head around that- then sorry, you just don't get it.
Both have cleared their caps of bad contracts. The Sixers will eventually have to pay some of their young guys- but they left space for that.
Both teams know that it will be VERY difficult to attract star level FA in the near term. So what they have done well is to "rent out" their cap space to take on a bad contract from other teams- and require the other team to give them picks for getting rid of the contracts.
What the Knicks have done with the Melo deal is to set themselves up short term to be a team that has the cap space to take on a bad contract for picks. Even with Zinger, they are not going to get stars to sign with them for a couple years until Zinger emerges as a true star himself and the bad memories of poor management fade among the players.
Therefore, when Kanter opts out next summer, and assuming that the Knicks can move KOQ, Lee and or Thomas for cap space themselves, they can be as much as $40M under the cap next summer.
They won't get any of the stars unless LBJ decides that he wants Zinger and 2 more to build a super team (which doesn't work under the cap anyway). So, the Knicks can use that space to get a team that is mid level or worse, but has no cap space (looking at you Charlotte and Detroit) to trade a bad contract to the Knicks- but send it with their 1st rounder.
Until the Knicks can get Noah off the books, they are stuck in limbo. He likely can't be traded until he becomes an expiring deal himself in 2 years, so the Knicks can become a team that takes bad contract that expire at the same time as Noah- or a year earlier than Noah's- and collect picks and cheap players on the roster until all those bad deals come off the books.
Zinger will need a mega deal by that point, but the cap will be free enough that they can add a star, maybe 2 in FA- and will hopefully will have drafted one or two high picks, combined with picks in the teens to be the role players a winning team needs- at rookie contract prices- to move from nothing to something within 3 years.
THAT is what Melo was moved for what they got. If you can't wrap your head around that- then sorry, you just don't get it.
Your post is condescending, which is weird because the premise is that the trade is fine because something Nets/Sixers. Except we plainly are not following the Sixers model. We arent even emulating the Nets Russell deal. There is zero evidence we're renting out cap space to gain futures. THJR 100% doesnt fit that model.
I would have tanked and rented cap space. But I think the people looking to analyze any Knicks transaction in terms of how it advances a Sixers style process are being silly. We arent doing that.
Maybe they can pick up another perimeter player like Sexton/Duval/Doncic.
They're almost definitely going to have to be in the top 3-4 (and possibly in the top 1-2) to get Doncic.
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
They have to try and move one of Kanter/Noah/KOQ (at least). It's just too many guys who are 100% 5's (KOQ can play some 4) but Willy really can't.