Don't really know what people were expecting. We HAD to take bad salary no matter what due to Melo's huge contract. 2 years for Kanter is better than 3 for Anderson or Meyers Leonard, and now we can have a full rebuild year. Sucks but it's where we are right now.
Don't really know what people were expecting. We HAD to take bad salary no matter what due to Melo's huge contract. 2 years for Kanter is better than 3 for Anderson or Meyers Leonard, and now we can have a full rebuild year. Sucks but it's where we are right now.
I'm with you on this. Don't know what people expected for Melo.
I am quite sure the Knicks - as bad as things have been - did not make this deal knowing they could have done better but just wanted to stick it to the fans. Of course all the BBI GMs with solid inside NBA sources will still claim any number of absurd "better" possibilities that were never really possible.
Don't really know what people were expecting. We HAD to take bad salary no matter what due to Melo's huge contract. 2 years for Kanter is better than 3 for Anderson or Meyers Leonard, and now we can have a full rebuild year. Sucks but it's where we are right now.
I'm with you on this. Don't know what people expected for Melo.
if the best long term piece you have coming back is a single second round pick - you wait.
Don't really know what people were expecting. We HAD to take bad salary no matter what due to Melo's huge contract. 2 years for Kanter is better than 3 for Anderson or Meyers Leonard, and now we can have a full rebuild year. Sucks but it's where we are right now.
Yup pretty much this. Kanter may be a better fit now that we're going to stop trying to force some fucking quasi sorta-triangle nonsense on the squad, but either way he becomes an expiring contract next year that we can trade too
can really score, his defense is really, really bad. McDermott career 39% from 3, not a bad player. Again my concern is Kanter/Willy. They can't play together.
Offensive player, pathetic on defense. Rough fit with Willy
Would the knicks consider dealing Willy ? I don't know his future I'd like to think we keep him and see where his potential lies... but I'd also think of dealing Willy of the return was too good to pass up. That's probably not likely.
Offensive player, pathetic on defense. Rough fit with Willy
Would the knicks consider dealing Willy ? I don't know his future I'd like to think we keep him and see where his potential lies... but I'd also think of dealing Willy of the return was too good to pass up. That's probably not likely.
Could they deal kanter mid season ?
The likely answer is they see Kanter as someone they move going forward. Doubtful Willy has much trade value after 1 solid season.
Don't really know what people were expecting. We HAD to take bad salary no matter what due to Melo's huge contract. 2 years for Kanter is better than 3 for Anderson or Meyers Leonard, and now we can have a full rebuild year. Sucks but it's where we are right now.
I'm with you on this. Don't know what people expected for Melo.
if the best long term piece you have coming back is a single second round pick - you wait.
Wait for what? Christmas? Good luck with that. Wait and knowing the knicks luck melo rips up his acl and we're stuck with him.
He's gone and the knicks didn't take back overpaid trash. Take it and run.
About a net cap savings of $4.5 million for next year, with no added liability beyond.
I guess the only question is could we have gotten better value by holding out until the deadline, but can't fault the Knicks for choosing to ship cranky Melo out of town now
Don't really know what people were expecting. We HAD to take bad salary no matter what due to Melo's huge contract. 2 years for Kanter is better than 3 for Anderson or Meyers Leonard, and now we can have a full rebuild year. Sucks but it's where we are right now.
I'm with you on this. Don't know what people expected for Melo.
if the best long term piece you have coming back is a single second round pick - you wait.
Wait for what, exactly? For Melo to be just good enough to win some meaningless games and prevent them from getting a top 5 pick?
Offensive player, pathetic on defense. Rough fit with Willy
Would the knicks consider dealing Willy ? I don't know his future I'd like to think we keep him and see where his potential lies... but I'd also think of dealing Willy of the return was too good to pass up. That's probably not likely.
Could they deal kanter mid season ?
Wily has a ton of value but he's the kind of guy you throw into a package to get a star..which isn't really the sort of trade this team will be making anytime soon. Unless they do an old school "challenge" trade and trade him for a young guard or a wing.
Don't really know what people were expecting. We HAD to take bad salary no matter what due to Melo's huge contract. 2 years for Kanter is better than 3 for Anderson or Meyers Leonard, and now we can have a full rebuild year. Sucks but it's where we are right now.
I'm with you on this. Don't know what people expected for Melo.
if the best long term piece you have coming back is a single second round pick - you wait.
Wait for what? Christmas? Good luck with that. Wait and knowing the knicks luck melo rips up his acl and we're stuck with him.
He's gone and the knicks didn't take back overpaid trash. Take it and run.
yup, this was the best possible return they were getting! Nobody else was going to offer more than a second rounder! Gotta take it! Just like they HAD to do all of the other dumb moves you've defended the last few years.
He fits into what we want to do percectly. We have a core of Willy, Porzingis, THJ, and Frank. Lets these kids grow together and hope they develop. I just hope we get a top pick this year. I don't want to be a team that thinks they can get the 8th seed in the east. Just be horrible and increase your chances at getting a top pick. Maybe flip some guys like Kanter and McDermott for more picks.
I'm just glad the knicks sort of have a clean slate from a roster pov. Ok there's Noah but who cares the knicks aren't losing a title shot because of Noah's contract. Hopefully the knicks peak as a title contender with this core but it won't be for a few years and Noah's off the books by then. Plus he's a locker room guy and seems intent on bouncing back this year.
So other than Noah not really any bad contracts. I'm excited to see hardaway here with the kids. I can get behind this group. Low expectations this season but a lot of youth and upside. As knicks fans we don't really get to experience these kind of fun seasons. If they win, lovely, if they lose -- tank and keep building.
The one thing we must shoot for in 2017-18 is KP taking another step forward. Gomez too. Ideally the knicks win in 2017 even though i know that would anger the tank crowd. I want to win. Winning is the ultimate perfume and can only help the culture here. But like I said if they lose, fine, get the draft star.
Don't really know what people were expecting. We HAD to take bad salary no matter what due to Melo's huge contract. 2 years for Kanter is better than 3 for Anderson or Meyers Leonard, and now we can have a full rebuild year. Sucks but it's where we are right now.
I'm with you on this. Don't know what people expected for Melo.
if the best long term piece you have coming back is a single second round pick - you wait.
Wait for what? Christmas? Good luck with that. Wait and knowing the knicks luck melo rips up his acl and we're stuck with him.
He's gone and the knicks didn't take back overpaid trash. Take it and run.
yup, this was the best possible return they were getting! Nobody else was going to offer more than a second rounder! Gotta take it! Just like they HAD to do all of the other dumb moves you've defended the last few years.
Well they got more than just a second round pick. And you're a miserable negative fan that hates every single trade or move this team makes so we can just agree to disagree.
Also I don't defend every deal they make. I try to make peace with them. There's a difference. I don't love this deal at all. But I can make peace with it. It's not a deal that sets us back. It's also a huge huge risk to "wait." But let's not address that am I right? You're always right I guess. You're gonna guarantee us all that waiting to deal melo doesn't hurt in the long run? You can't. Can you? This isn't a game it's a risk either way whether you acknowledge this or not. Also, the knicks did in fact wait. They could have made a terrible trade two months ago.
I'm just glad the knicks sort of have a clean slate from a roster pov. Ok there's Noah but who cares the knicks aren't losing a title shot because of Noah's contract. Hopefully the knicks peak as a title contender with this core but it won't be for a few years and Noah's off the books by then.
can really score, his defense is really, really bad. McDermott career 39% from 3, not a bad player. Again my concern is Kanter/Willy. They can't play together.
Dan - aren't Kanter and Willy both C's? I didn't see them playing together anyway, I thought one would back up the other.
baffled by the bad trade talk. Just by getting rid of Melo we increase our draft position. If you could look at this trade in hindsight with and without having Melo would you rather pick in the 5-10 range and have kept him. Or the 1-5 range without him. We weren't getting anything better for him later in the year. He had a NTC he wasn't going anywhere he didn't want to.
can really score, his defense is really, really bad. McDermott career 39% from 3, not a bad player. Again my concern is Kanter/Willy. They can't play together.
Dan - aren't Kanter and Willy both C's? I didn't see them playing together anyway, I thought one would back up the other.
Well that's my point. You aren't going to have Willy on the court with Kanter and they already have Noah. Kanter is going to eat into Willy's minutes, no way around it.
can really score, his defense is really, really bad. McDermott career 39% from 3, not a bad player. Again my concern is Kanter/Willy. They can't play together.
Dan - aren't Kanter and Willy both C's? I didn't see them playing together anyway, I thought one would back up the other.
Well that's my point. You aren't going to have Willy on the court with Kanter and they already have Noah. Kanter is going to eat into Willy's minutes, no way around it.
One would think Perry is aware of this. I don't think he's done dealing.
I'm glad Melo is gone, but don't like the trade. Â
I wanted at least 1 first round pick... the players were never important to me because they were never going to be difference makers regardless of where you got them from.
Just how bad this team is managed, almost inconceivable moves, one after the other, it has become so bad that when they make a bad trade like this one people are OK with it because it was not all world horrendous. any other organization would have gotten a 1st round pick, any other.
can really score, his defense is really, really bad. McDermott career 39% from 3, not a bad player. Again my concern is Kanter/Willy. They can't play together.
Dan - aren't Kanter and Willy both C's? I didn't see them playing together anyway, I thought one would back up the other.
Well that's my point. You aren't going to have Willy on the court with Kanter and they already have Noah. Kanter is going to eat into Willy's minutes, no way around it.
I see what you meant now. I misread your other post.
I'm not worried about Noah - he'll be suspended for a while and then he can be an emergency backup. He shouldn't get playing time.
There may be another move or moves coming, but if not I don't think Willy and Kanter splitting time is so bad. Wasn't Kanter the second-string C at OKC? That's how their depth chart showed it. Give Willy 28 or 30 minutes and Kanter 18 or 20.
Just how bad this team is managed, almost inconceivable moves, one after the other, it has become so bad that when they make a bad trade like this one people are OK with it because it was not all world horrendous. any other organization would have gotten a 1st round pick, any other.
huh? he is 33 nobody was getting a. 1st for melo, did the pacers get a 1st for george?
and how is it a bad trade? both players are still young and neither kill the cap...
getting a low round pick in the first round really makes a difference.
Are Kanter or McDermott guaranteed to be on the roster in 2 years? If the answer is no, then what did you just trade Melo for? Even a very low first has value for a rebuilding franchise.
getting a low round pick in the first round really makes a difference.
Are Kanter or McDermott guaranteed to be on the roster in 2 years? If the answer is no, then what did you just trade Melo for? Even a very low first has value for a rebuilding franchise.
the pick they got could be 31...
also with the only teams melo was willing to go to being cleveland houston or okc this was tje best possible deal...
are living in a dream world. Paul george was traded for the crappy contract of Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis. Jimmy Butler was traded for Lavine (coming off knee surgery), Dunn, and a first round pick swap. Both those players are much better then this current version of 33 year old anthony and neither had a NTC. Sure George was telling everyone he wanted LA, still id rather have Kanter and McBuckets then Oladipo and sabonis.
Just how bad this team is managed, almost inconceivable moves, one after the other, it has become so bad that when they make a bad trade like this one people are OK with it because it was not all world horrendous. any other organization would have gotten a 1st round pick, any other.
Is anyone still opposed to the trade? Or are you cool with being on the same side of the argument as Paul?
This is pretty much a guarantee that the trade is good for the Knicks.
I hate that it sounds like we are holding onto Lee... Â
at least it did a month or so ago. Id rather those minutes go to the young guys.
Who Cares (jack, sessions, Baker)/Frank
THJR/Dotson
Beasley/Kuz/Thomas
KP/Kanter
WH/KOQ/Noah
I just want to see Frank, THJR, WH, KP and even kanter get around 30-35 minutes a game. I dont want to see Session, Jack, Thomas, Lee, Noah, etc.. Eating up anywhere near 30 minutes.
IND did not get a first for PG. Minn got a pick swap for Butler. You just dont see as many first going unless its in a salary dump (carrol trade) a true star (irving, CP3)
Could’ve held on to him and got more come trade deadline
How do you know this? How do you know he wouldn't decline even more or worse yet, injure himself? The only guarantee that keeping Melo on the roster would provide is more meaningless wins and lower draft position. Period. Melos trade stock was very, very unlikely to rise at this stage of his career.
getting a low round pick in the first round really makes a difference.
Are Kanter or McDermott guaranteed to be on the roster in 2 years? If the answer is no, then what did you just trade Melo for? Even a very low first has value for a rebuilding franchise.
The only guy connected to the Melo trade talks who was guaranteed to be on the roster in two years was Ryan Anderson. Would that have been a positive? It seems like you think guaranteeing someone will be on the roster in two years is a good thing. Melo also wouldn't have been on the roster in two years.
I don't think people understood what Melo's actual trade value was - this was a pretty good trade for the Knicks compared to the alternatives.
that are bitching about the trade would be the same guys bitch if they held on to him and he hurt his back or ruptured his Achilles and completely ruined all trade value while then opting in and leaving the Knicks on the hook for his entire salary. It's the same guys that bitch about EVERYTHING.
They tried this at last year's deadline and contending teams didn't want to integrate a player like that midseason.
But lets imagine for a second that wasn't the case and Houston, Cleveland, and OKC were all willing to deal for him then. You risk Melo getting hurt, showing more signs of declining as a player and a lost half seasons of KP's development being stunted, not to mention some extra wins that can be the difference between a top 3 and 6-8th pick. And for what? At most, they'd get late 1st instead of Chicago's second.
How is the risk/reward profile there even remotely the smart play? If any of those things happen either it's Anderson or nothing or he opts in because he wouldn't be sniffing anywhere close to ~$26M a year in the open market. That would be incredibly stupid for a pick that will be at most 8 spots higher than the one they got in this deal.
the atmosphere would have been if an unhappy, unwanted Melo stayed on the Knicks.
And they aren't just getting a second round pick. They are getting good shot at a substantially higher first round pick than of Melo stayed. And, as Phil noted, there could be another trae or two coming. A talented young, cheap big like Hernangomez has considerable trade value. The question is when. Remember that Billy was first-team all-rookie. And he's 23 and still in the very early part of his growth.
Assuming Kantor takes that slot, Billy could be worth a lot more at some point than a high-salary, much older Melo with a no-trade clause was.
we might be able to find takers for Lee and Kanter. And if they play ok i could see guys like Jack, Beasley, McBuckets, KOQ, etc.. having some value. We arent getting anything great but if we can turn them into some second rounders or a young guy with some upside id be all for it.
this must-get-first-round-pick stuff strikes me as illogical - Â
Kanter and McDermott are both 25. Both were first round picks. Kanter was a high first round pick, taken at #3. McDermott at #11. We just got two young first round picks in this trade. Where is the guarantee that our hypothetical first round pick we "should" have gotten is going to be better than a guy taken #3 in the entire draft? Who's got that crystal ball?
Also, now was the time to trade Melo, for so many reasons. Waiting longer would have made very little sense IMO.
wonder if Porz could now play some tall shooting guard Â
''C- Willy Hernangomez, Enes Kanter, Joakim Noah, Luke Kornet (R)
PF- Kristaps Porzingis, Kyle O’Quinn
SF- Doug McDermott, Lance Thomas, Michael Beasley, Mindaugus Kuzminskas, Nigel Hayes (R)
SG- Tim Hardaway Jr., Courtney Lee, Ron Baker, Damyean Dotson (R), Jamel Artis (R), Xavier Rathan-Mayes (R)
PG- Ramon Sessions, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina (R), Ognen Jaramaz (R)''
------------------------
C- Hernangomez ----- defense at arc /rebounds on O
PF- Kanter -----------offense, rebounds on D
SF= Kuz (or whomever you guys think is best-a ball mover)
SG- Porzingas ----------shoots blocks shots
PG- Frenchy ------------shoots and moves ball
good riddance, the trade when he came here broke up Â
Melo is a depreciating asset with a ton of miles on him. Every day the Knicks held onto him was one day closer to the wheels falling off. I hope he is energized in OKC and gets to finish his career on a good, contending team. In return, the Knicks get two former 1st rounders that are still only 25. Both can score and contribute. No more Phil, no more Melo....now the Knicks can truly start over.
Carmelo very similar to Vince Carter, great individual offensive talents who are not team players and, invariably, you don't win championships with them on your team. When Phil came to NY and, the first thing he did was to make resigning Carmelo a priority, I knew that the Knicks were going nowhere under his guidance.
RE: I hate that it sounds like we are holding onto Lee... Â
Kanter and McDermott are both 25. Both were first round picks. Kanter was a high first round pick, taken at #3. McDermott at #11. We just got two young first round picks in this trade. Where is the guarantee that our hypothetical first round pick we "should" have gotten is going to be better than a guy taken #3 in the entire draft? Who's got that crystal ball?
Also, now was the time to trade Melo, for so many reasons. Waiting longer would have made very little sense IMO.
Neither one of them is under contract beyond this season, so what difference does it make how old they are? If you told me we were getting McDermott at his current price for 2 or 3 more years, that's fine. Instead, he might be making 3 or 4 times his salary for this season going forward. The only way Kanter doesn't opt out is if one of his legs fall off during the season. Who knows how good the first round pick would be, but we do know he would be here with the other young players they have now for the foreseeable future.
or...they play great and fit in and its worth the money Â
Could’ve held on to him and got more come trade deadline
Could have. Emphasis on "could"
Holding melo comes with a risk. As long as all the so called realists out there acknowledge that holding melo brings with it various risks...
No one loves this trade but holding melo until the deadline only to see him pull a hammy or struggle means worst case scenario. I'd rather take 25 cents on the dollar now rather than eat the shitty or hurt player later.
And really, what would the knicks get if melo is traded by the deadline?? The knicks exhausted trade proposals for a full year now. What the hell were they getting?
The only guy connected to the Melo trade talks who was guaranteed to be on the roster in two years was Ryan Anderson. Would that have been a positive? It seems like you think guaranteeing someone will be on the roster in two years is a good thing. Melo also wouldn't have been on the roster in two years.
I don't think people understood what Melo's actual trade value was - this was a pretty good trade for the Knicks compared to the alternatives.
If they don't overpay or match McDermott's offer next offseason, they could wind up with nothing for Melo other than a 2nd round pick. That's basically trading him for nothing. That's why you want a first round pick, especially with the players they got back. At least get the right to a swap or a protected first.
There has to be a middle ground between Ryan Anderson and possibly nothing.
And when I say the right to swap, I mean a few years down the road. Â
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
RE: RE: And when I say the right to swap, I mean a few years down the road. Â
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
I don't want Melo on this team at all, but I'm not willing to trade him for what could be nothing relatively soon just to avoid the discomfort of Melo in training camp. You do realize that 12 months from today Kanter and McDermott could be on different teams? The Knicks would've basically ended up trading Melo for a 2nd round pick. How can anyone spin that as a positive?
RE: RE: RE: And when I say the right to swap, I mean a few years down the road. Â
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
I don't want Melo on this team at all, but I'm not willing to trade him for what could be nothing relatively soon just to avoid the discomfort of Melo in training camp. You do realize that 12 months from today Kanter and McDermott could be on different teams? The Knicks would've basically ended up trading Melo for a 2nd round pick. How can anyone spin that as a positive?
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
I don't want Melo on this team at all, but I'm not willing to trade him for what could be nothing relatively soon just to avoid the discomfort of Melo in training camp. You do realize that 12 months from today Kanter and McDermott could be on different teams? The Knicks would've basically ended up trading Melo for a 2nd round pick. How can anyone spin that as a positive?
And 12 months from now, Melo could have opted out as well. And then the Knicks would also be left with nothing. Or no deal could materialize, and the Knicks could be forced to buy him out and they'd be left with less than nothing - they'd have residual cap damage.
The 2nd round pick they got is likely to be only a few slots behind whatever fictional 1st round pick you're wishing they'd have gotten. And the two guys you're so worried about leaving for nothing are still tradable assets (both with value, neither with NTCs), so the Knicks still have an opportunity to further convert this return into future value.
You misunderstood Melo's trade value and are upset with the trade as a result. That's fine. But at some point you have to realize that there weren't any suitors banging down the door, and you can't ignore the fact that at any time Melo could have reneged on his approved list (like he had done once before with Cleveland). Why would you take that risk? What's the upside? For a potential pick swap years down the road? For a late 20's 1st round pick instead of an early/mid 30's 2nd round pick? What if the 1st round pick you so desperately wish they'd have gotten also came with an albatross contract? The Knicks could only deal with teams that Melo approved, and then had to make the money match. That's an incredibly limited universe of options.
RE: RE: RE: RE: And when I say the right to swap, I mean a few years down the road. Â
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
Who's talking about holding onto him until the deadline? (I keep having to respond to these strawman arguments.) I'm just saying you can't be so frightened by the prospect of him walking through the door at training camp that you trade him for what could easily be nothing but a 2nd round pick 12 months from today. The reports of Melo expanding his list came out yesterday(?) and he was traded 24 hours later. We couldn't have waited for this deal a little while longer? I never for one second thought that the Knicks were getting a haul. However, outside of the prospect of paying Doug McDermott 3-5 times what he's making now, we might end up with zero long term pieces out of trading Melo. That's nothing to get excited about.
Princeton guys. Current smart NBA guys. They wanted Anthony gone so badly they were willing to take nothing back to get rid of him. That's all you need to know about why he was traded as soon as they didn't have to take bad contracts back.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: And when I say the right to swap, I mean a few years down the road. Â
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
Who's talking about holding onto him until the deadline? (I keep having to respond to these strawman arguments.) I'm just saying you can't be so frightened by the prospect of him walking through the door at training camp that you trade him for what could easily be nothing but a 2nd round pick 12 months from today. The reports of Melo expanding his list came out yesterday(?) and he was traded 24 hours later. We couldn't have waited for this deal a little while longer? I never for one second thought that the Knicks were getting a haul. However, outside of the prospect of paying Doug McDermott 3-5 times what he's making now, we might end up with zero long term pieces out of trading Melo. That's nothing to get excited about.
You seem to ignore ALOT of the posts that counter yours. Lantern and McDermott are tradeable assets that could net more picks. Forcfucks sake man. A mid 20's pick means that much to you that you're completely blind to everything else? Damn man
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: And when I say the right to swap, I mean a few years down the road. Â
You seem to ignore ALOT of the posts that counter yours. Lantern and McDermott are tradeable assets that could net more picks. Forcfucks sake man. A mid 20's pick means that much to you that you're completely blind to everything else? Damn man
So we can't trade Melo for anything, but we'll trade 2 guys (1 who will opt out and another who will get 3-5 times more expensive) for more picks?
You seem to ignore ALOT of the posts that counter yours. Lantern and McDermott are tradeable assets that could net more picks. Forcfucks sake man. A mid 20's pick means that much to you that you're completely blind to everything else? Damn man
So we can't trade Melo for anything, but we'll trade 2 guys (1 who will opt out and another who will get 3-5 times more expensive) for more picks?
They don't have no trade clauses. And here's a bit of a hint for you - it's not uncommon for contenders to add reinforcements at the deadline without concern for whether those players will be on the roster beyond that season. You just have a misunderstood view of the NBA trade market.
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
Who's talking about holding onto him until the deadline? (I keep having to respond to these strawman arguments.) I'm just saying you can't be so frightened by the prospect of him walking through the door at training camp that you trade him for what could easily be nothing but a 2nd round pick 12 months from today. The reports of Melo expanding his list came out yesterday(?) and he was traded 24 hours later. We couldn't have waited for this deal a little while longer? I never for one second thought that the Knicks were getting a haul. However, outside of the prospect of paying Doug McDermott 3-5 times what he's making now, we might end up with zero long term pieces out of trading Melo. That's nothing to get excited about.
You do realize that Melo still hadn't waived his NTC, right? He expanded his list but it's not like that was a formal process where that list became an amendment to his contract. How do you know that he didn't tell the Knicks that he would expand his list but it was conditional on him being before the start of camp on Monday?
The other bit of news that had come out yesterday was that Melo was pushing the Knicks hard to get a deal done before the start of camp - do you really think Melo just expanded his list without some sort of hammer?
You are completely blind to the fact that Melo making 28 million has absolutely no value. There is no need to bring him to training camp. This is the best they were going to get, Cleveland offered Shump and Frye, Houston wouldn't even trade Gordon and ariza. He was not going to go to Portland. So that's it no other competing team has interest or space to take him. Who cares if Knicks have kanter or Mcdermont on the roster in 2 years. This trade all but guarantees a top 5 pick next rather than a pick 8-12. If we end up getting a top 3 pick we are talking about a true franchise player added to our young nucleus. Kanter hopefully opts out after this year and Mcdermont gets traded at some point for a second rounder or you let him walk. If you can trade lee and Thomas during the season, you have
Porzingis
Hernangomez
Frenchy
2018 lottery pick
2018 early second round pick
Dotson
This is a good young core to build off of. 2018-2019 season should be better but prob still a late lottery team. Then 2020 you have tons of cap space with young improving team that should be able to attract free agwnts.
The "aging player" argument has always really annoyed me. Â
Not that it's necessarily wrong, but it only seems to apply to Melo.
Last time I checked, Chris Paul isn't exactly a spring chicken, makes a shit ton of money, was also a disgruntled player that foruhis way off a team, and has his own injury concerns. And he netted a fucking haul AND a first round pick.
Now, I'm fine with this trade (if nothing more than I'm just sick of seeing emo-Melo on this team any longer). And I understand that the return that teams get for players is affected by so many variables. And stop using PH as an example why teams don't give up firsts anymore. IND had a MUCH better deal offered but didn't pull the trigger. Then they eventually went forward with that garbage trade the PG.
I don't know if it is a NY bias, an inept NY front office, or the total botch job they did on the Melo situation...but I'm so sick of the valueless, aging star shit that only seems to apply to Melo. I can almost guarantee that Melo will be damn good when playing on a team that isn't the poster child for dysfunction.
Not that it's necessarily wrong, but it only seems to apply to Melo.
Last time I checked, Chris Paul isn't exactly a spring chicken, makes a shit ton of money, was also a disgruntled player that foruhis way off a team, and has his own injury concerns. And he netted a fucking haul AND a first round pick.
Now, I'm fine with this trade (if nothing more than I'm just sick of seeing emo-Melo on this team any longer). And I understand that the return that teams get for players is affected by so many variables. And stop using PH as an example why teams don't give up firsts anymore. IND had a MUCH better deal offered but didn't pull the trigger. Then they eventually went forward with that garbage trade the PG.
I don't know if it is a NY bias, an inept NY front office, or the total botch job they did on the Melo situation...but I'm so sick of the valueless, aging star shit that only seems to apply to Melo. I can almost guarantee that Melo will be damn good when playing on a team that isn't the poster child for dysfunction.
Chris Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>Melo. Absolutely dreadful comparison.
I don't disagree that CP is better than Melo. I don't think that Â
twenty ">"s was necessary or even accurate but point taken. But put CP on the Knicks and he'd probably look like a worse player also.
Plus, the disparity in returns for each player was pretty drastic. However, point guard is a premium position and there was a team that felt they were a player away. Like I said, timing is everything. All it takes is one team. A lot of variables need to come together.
Take away the NTC and the Phil botch-job, and Melo should have netted a lot more. That killed us.
You are completely blind to the fact that Melo making 28 million has absolutely no value. There is no need to bring him to training camp. This is the best they were going to get, Cleveland offered Shump and Frye, Houston wouldn't even trade Gordon and ariza. He was not going to go to Portland. So that's it no other competing team has interest or space to take him. Who cares if Knicks have kanter or Mcdermont on the roster in 2 years. This trade all but guarantees a top 5 pick next rather than a pick 8-12. If we end up getting a top 3 pick we are talking about a true franchise player added to our young nucleus. Kanter hopefully opts out after this year and Mcdermont gets traded at some point for a second rounder or you let him walk. If you can trade lee and Thomas during the season, you have
Some of you are equating "don't be afraid of Melo showing up for camp" with "if we wait, we'll get 10 first round picks for him". I'm not blind about Melo's value. I just wanted a first round pick, regardless of where it was. (A first round pick is still better than Chicago's 2nd rounder, even if there's not a lot of difference in the spots.) Some seem to be arguing he has no value while others are saying he does have value because Kanter and McDermott will at the very least be tradeable assets. I have doubts about their attractiveness as deadline trading chips, especially if their value is in any way dependent on how they look with a shit Knicks team.
I'm not even arguing this isn't the best trade they could make. I'm arguing that they could've waited a little while to make it unless I'm unaware of a list of players who've blown their knees out on the first day of training camp. Who knows... maybe the deals were already agreed to and were simply awaiting Melo's expansion of his list. For me, these 2 players (especially with their contract situations) are nothing to get excited about now or as potential chips.
BTW, I was fairly confident the Knicks were going to be GOD-awful even if Melo somehow stuck around.
You are a fan who is erroneously mistaking their beliefs as fact. To be even more blunt, you have no idea how NBA trades work, and have abundantly demonstrated that you know even less about trade value or leverage.
Thus, your fact-free tirades that make less and less sense as you defend a completely indefensible belief, are a waste of everyone's time.
Are we clear now?
RE: Since the nicer posters have not gotten through Â
You are a fan who is erroneously mistaking their beliefs as fact. To be even more blunt, you have no idea how NBA trades work, and have abundantly demonstrated that you know even less about trade value or leverage.
Thus, your fact-free tirades that make less and less sense as you defend a completely indefensible belief, are a waste of everyone's time.
Are we clear now?
+1
Rich, are you saying that the Knicks wouldn't have gotten a better Â
deal (potentially) if they had waited a little longer? Has does this factor into trade value or leverage?
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
You are completely blind to the fact that Melo making 28 million has absolutely no value. There is no need to bring him to training camp. This is the best they were going to get, Cleveland offered Shump and Frye, Houston wouldn't even trade Gordon and ariza. He was not going to go to Portland. So that's it no other competing team has interest or space to take him. Who cares if Knicks have kanter or Mcdermont on the roster in 2 years. This trade all but guarantees a top 5 pick next rather than a pick 8-12. If we end up getting a top 3 pick we are talking about a true franchise player added to our young nucleus. Kanter hopefully opts out after this year and Mcdermont gets traded at some point for a second rounder or you let him walk. If you can trade lee and Thomas during the season, you have
Some of you are equating "don't be afraid of Melo showing up for camp" with "if we wait, we'll get 10 first round picks for him". I'm not blind about Melo's value. I just wanted a first round pick, regardless of where it was. (A first round pick is still better than Chicago's 2nd rounder, even if there's not a lot of difference in the spots.) Some seem to be arguing he has no value while others are saying he does have value because Kanter and McDermott will at the very least be tradeable assets. I have doubts about their attractiveness as deadline trading chips, especially if their value is in any way dependent on how they look with a shit Knicks team.
I'm not even arguing this isn't the best trade they could make. I'm arguing that they could've waited a little while to make it unless I'm unaware of a list of players who've blown their knees out on the first day of training camp. Who knows... maybe the deals were already agreed to and were simply awaiting Melo's expansion of his list. For me, these 2 players (especially with their contract situations) are nothing to get excited about now or as potential chips.
BTW, I was fairly confident the Knicks were going to be GOD-awful even if Melo somehow stuck around.
Holy shit. You are abysmal. You don't care WHERE the first rounder was or even the fact that it would be only a couple of picks ahead of Chicagos 2nd rounder? You just wanted a first rounder? For the love of God, I've heard everything now. Good night. You should be REALLY embarrassed at your exhibition tonight.
RE: Rich, are you saying that the Knicks wouldn't have gotten a better Â
deal (potentially) if they had waited a little longer? Has does this factor into trade value or leverage?
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
Or maybe he regresses more. Or maybe he gets injured. The chance of his trade value declining far outweighs any slim chance that his trade value increases. Haven't they been trying to trade him for over a year now? How many teams were knocking down the door last trade deadline? He's somehow going to be more valuable a year later? And how about the fact that keeping him around likely adds to more meaningless wins? They go from top 5 to maybe the tenth pick? Or worse?
RE: Rich, are you saying that the Knicks wouldn't have gotten a better Â
deal (potentially) if they had waited a little longer? Has does this factor into trade value or leverage?
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
Maybe he told them to begin with that he was expanding his list until the start of training camp only and then he was locking in on his NTC. You're right that he had the clear need to be off the team. He also held all the cards as it related to that. Yes, the Knicks could have called his bluff, but to what end?
Do you really not think Melo expanded his list without a countdown clock attached to it? Everything is quid pro quo, everything.
He had the no-trade, he had the final say if he was going to be here or not and when. And Phil's buffoonery made that even worse.
And he didn't have as much value as some people are overstating, but despite that being made apparent, we're gonna conclude the Knicks botched something because they didn't get the return you fantasized about. A 33 year old beat up all-offense, limited athlete, declining player in an option year with a $28m price tag. What a catch that guy would be for any team.
RE: Rich, are you saying that the Knicks wouldn't have gotten a better Â
deal (potentially) if they had waited a little longer? Has does this factor into trade value or leverage?
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
That's correct. Too many fans on this site have deluded themselves into thinking that they MUST know more about NOW trades than those making them. No one was going to offer the Knicks even close to value.
The reason is simple. The Knicks had zero leverage. Thus, their goal was NOT to maximize value, but to minimize the future damage to the cap and team.
This is no different than if someone is selling their car to a dealer. You won't get the full value for the car- the dealer knows you are selling because you have to, and has no incentive to cut into their own profit. Thus, you get the best deal you can make and limit the damage.
Why should the Knicks add a player who will be on the team in 3 years when no one is offering a meaningful player? That is adding another problem when there is no need to.
First round picks are high value currency in the cap age. No one is giving one up when the other team has to move the player.
RE: RE: Rich, are you saying that the Knicks wouldn't have gotten a better Â
deal (potentially) if they had waited a little longer? Has does this factor into trade value or leverage?
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
Or maybe he regresses more. Or maybe he gets injured. The chance of his trade value declining far outweighs any slim chance that his trade value increases. Haven't they been trying to trade him for over a year now? How many teams were knocking down the door last trade deadline? He's somehow going to be more valuable a year later? And how about the fact that keeping him around likely adds to more meaningless wins? They go from top 5 to maybe the tenth pick? Or worse?
Don't disagree with anything you said. It would be a risk to hold onto Melo also.
Like I said, I'm fine with the trade. I can see the argument for holding on to Melo for the hopes of a better deal. But it's a high risk move with a very low percentage of it actually happening. I, for one, believe that Melo is a more valuable player than he's being portrayed but clearly not as valuable as some fans believe. And trade value isn't just attributed the the level of play either. Lots of other factors that all were a negative to the Knicks in this scenario.
Westchester or cut:
Artis
Hayes
Jaramaz
Kornet
XRM
Sessions/Jack
Kornet signed a 2 way contract back in July Teams will have a 15 man roster plus 2 2-way players. I think it's a max of 45 days the 2 2-way can spend w/their NBA team w/the majority of the time spent w/the minor league club.
Carmelo very similar to Vince Carter, great individual offensive talents who are not team players and, invariably, you don't win championships with them on your team. When Phil came to NY and, the first thing he did was to make resigning Carmelo a priority, I knew that the Knicks were going nowhere under his guidance.
04 Pistons aside, you need a top ~5 player and a lot more to have a shot. Melo was never really in that class of player IMO. But if he had been on LeBron's team he'd have won a title. There are lots of guys who will push for the HOF who wouldnt win titles if they werent with all timers. Kyrie and Love. Bosh. Parker and Manu. Melo was better than all of them IMO, or at least right there with the best of them.
You are a fan who is erroneously mistaking their beliefs as fact. To be even more blunt, you have no idea how NBA trades work, and have abundantly demonstrated that you know even less about trade value or leverage.
Thus, your fact-free tirades that make less and less sense as you defend a completely indefensible belief, are a waste of everyone's time.
Are we clear now?
Jeez, an internet asshole... you should be proud of yourself. If you're incapable of disagreeing with someone (and that's all I was doing, no tirades involved) without resorting to horseshit you wouldn't say to their face, then don't even bother. I don't think I've ever read a more batshit insane response to someone voicing mild displeasure. One would think I said burn down the Garden and everyone in it. It truly makes me believe you're a miserable human being.
How is the Knicks waiting until Monday to make this trade indefensible? The ONLY argument I've seen against that here is that Melo put some clock on his approval/expansion of list. What if the Knicks refused to be bound by that clock? Will he somehow force their hand by showing up and staying at a place he has even less interest in being than the Knicks have in keeping him? (According to Pete Vecsey, Melo already told them he wasn't showing up to camp.) Do you truly believe this deal was going somewhere in the next 36 hours? Your argument that we were never going to get Melo's true value, so we had to jump on this as if it were the greatest deal in the world makes makes absolutely no sense. We ALL agree about the Knicks leverage and Melo's value. The sole purpose of this deal appears to be clearing cap space. While I had zero interest in Ryan Anderson (or anyone like that) and never had any expectation of getting young, cheap talent in return, cap space on this team is FAR less important than getting a first round draft pick. That's just my opinion. No one else has to agree with that. (And apparently some people don't understand that a first round pick is more valuable than a second round pick.)
Like I've already said, it's entirely possible this is the best we could do. But why not wait until Monday? Were the Thunder going to offer less? Were they going to change their minds? Of course not, this is a terrific deal for them. I don't see how that is even remotely controversial.
You or anyone else is free to disagree with me, but it's not as if there's widespread approval of this deal from people who cover the sport. But we're just discussing a basketball trade here... no need for it to escalate beyond that.
Glad the Knicks are not stuck in neutral with Melo, Â
i think thie issue is that this WAS melo's true value. Why do you think we are getting a deal equal to what a team paid for a Paul george (i like this better then that anyway), Butler, etc.. Melo is 33, has a NTC, and is a tough player to integrate into your offense. You are not getting some amazing deal for him. NBA teams are just not going to overpay for past their prime players. Im not trying to be an ass here, i just dont think you have a good grasp on what teams are willing to give up for players in this current NBA. Teams will pay up for an in his prime star who is under control for at least 2 seasons (Kyrie), but thats about it these days.
I wanted to let a day sink in before gathering my thoughts Â
I dont care for the trade. It still smacks of a dump to me unless we're turning Kanter or McBuckets into a longer term future asset in the short term, or unless we think Kanter's weight loss will make him a passable defender and want to sign him long term.
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
I agree with Italianju. Knicks fans have been clamoring to get rid of Melo because he's relatively old, a ball-stopper and plays no D. Why would GMs give up major assets to get someone that a team's own fans are dying to get rid of? We'll never know exactly how the deal went down in terms of leverage, etc., but it's time to move on from Melo either way.
RE: I wanted to let a day sink in before gathering my thoughts Â
I dont care for the trade. It still smacks of a dump to me unless we're turning Kanter or McBuckets into a longer term future asset in the short term, or unless we think Kanter's weight loss will make him a passable defender and want to sign him long term.
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
It kind of is a dump. Phil poisoned the situation and made it rather impossible to keep him around. If the seller doesn't value the item they're selling, why should the buyer?
RE: I wanted to let a day sink in before gathering my thoughts Â
I dont care for the trade. It still smacks of a dump to me unless we're turning Kanter or McBuckets into a longer term future asset in the short term, or unless we think Kanter's weight loss will make him a passable defender and want to sign him long term.
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
I think it just comes to two questions. 1. Do you think they could have gotten more?
2. Do you think they needed to trade Melo before the year started?
I am a no and then a yes. The Knicks had 0 leverage, and other teams knew that. If you read through the Woj article, this was actually by far the best option since Melo refused to go to Portland. Other packages were Shump/Frye (which would have been hilarious) and that Anderson nonsense.
Moving Melo now was the right move. He was good enough to win them more games than they should, and would have been just enough of a malcontent to hurt team chemistry. They can officially turn the page to the KP era. That's a big win.
I agree I'm not thrilled with the return, but we did get two 25 year old NBA players who are worthy of a rotation spot (and on short term deals) and a pick in the 30s. It certainly could have been worse.
Your other points are fair though. It's a strange roster with a lot of overlap. I bet Noah gets stretched next offseason, but no reason to do it now.
Right now my focus this year is 1. Developing the youth. 2. Showcasing guys.
KOQ/Lee remain good trade bait. Kanter is also good trade bait potentially. All three are helpful players to an NBA contender.
I'd keep Dougie Buckets to see if he can stretch the floor/be our new Steve Novak.
The weirdest new issue we have is the logjam at PG. Obviously Frank is there and needs to play, at least a little. But Sessions was brought in to be the starter, and Baker will play, but then why bring in Jarret Jack? We're at a roster crunch and he seems the most likely to get the axe.
Yesterday I was upset that they didn't get Ferguson in Â
the deal. But,24 hours later,I'm warming up to it. First,the term"addition by subtraction" applies here as it was time for Melo to go.The Knicks couldn't move forward w/him on the roster. Second, if Hornacek runs the offense he ran in Phoenix,McBuckets will thrive. I've always liked him but felt he was utilized ineffectively in Chi/OKC. I think we may have gotten him at the right time. Kanter lost a lot of weight over the summer as I believe OKC management told him he needs to be more mobile. I think he stays in the same role as he did in OKC,coming in for Willie.Both guys are 25,still have upside & have contracts that end this/next year. It'll give us a chance to see if McBuckets fits as he'll be a RFA next year so we'll have to chance to bring him back if he fits. Kanter has a player option for $18 mill next year so I think he'll be back,good or bad. I'm excited about this year-not because we're playoff bound,but we have a good nucleus of young,talented players that can develop while the tank is on. We're no longer running in quicksand!
I think it just comes to two questions. 1. Do you think they could have gotten more?
2. Do you think they needed to trade Melo before the year started?
I am a no and then a yes. The Knicks had 0 leverage, and other teams knew that. If you read through the Woj article, this was actually by far the best option since Melo refused to go to Portland. Other packages were Shump/Frye (which would have been hilarious) and that Anderson nonsense.
Moving Melo now was the right move. He was good enough to win them more games than they should, and would have been just enough of a malcontent to hurt team chemistry. They can officially turn the page to the KP era. That's a big win.
I agree I'm not thrilled with the return, but we did get two 25 year old NBA players who are worthy of a rotation spot (and on short term deals) and a pick in the 30s. It certainly could have been worse.
Your other points are fair though. It's a strange roster with a lot of overlap. I bet Noah gets stretched next offseason, but no reason to do it now.
Right now my focus this year is 1. Developing the youth. 2. Showcasing guys.
KOQ/Lee remain good trade bait. Kanter is also good trade bait potentially. All three are helpful players to an NBA contender.
I'd keep Dougie Buckets to see if he can stretch the floor/be our new Steve Novak.
The weirdest new issue we have is the logjam at PG. Obviously Frank is there and needs to play, at least a little. But Sessions was brought in to be the starter, and Baker will play, but then why bring in Jarret Jack? We're at a roster crunch and he seems the most likely to get the axe.
I cant say whether they could have gotten more today -- i have no idea how they scout the Thunder players and whether they want to pay them. I dont think Melo needed to be traded before the season, but all things considered, if you're moving him then sooner the better. Also he just added OKC so I wouldnt assume that he was always a no on POR.
There are too many useful NBA players on this roster who a rebuilding team doesnt need. Noah is untradable, but Lee, KOQ, McBuckets, Kanter, and Kuz (rumored interest around the league) should all be shopped. Trade 1-2 to get a non-lottery #1 in the next few drafts. Some of them are pretty cheap.
but signing Melo to a no-trade with a trade salary bump along with locking in an over-the-hill Noah are clearly near the top of the list. One has to wonder how much more we could have gotten for Melo if we had the right to deal him anywhere, as on teams with normal GMs.
As far as Melo is concerned, I have given this some thought, too. No doubt Melo is still a world-class offensive player and spectacular athlete who draws multiple defenders constantly, and his rank belongs much higher than in some of the nonsensical polls.
But, here are the things for me:
--He is still a tweener who plays his best ball at the 4, but takes away an inside rebounding/defense spot by doing so. At the 3, he needs help all of the time on defense.
--It isn't at all clear to me that he can stay healthy, especially over a span of more than one season. Playing inside as much as he does, and using body fakes as much as he does, he gets landed on, a lot. He has already had several shoulder injuries, and over time shoulders get worse, not better.
--And, of course, the refs have never protected him the way they protected most first line stars. Does that change on a team with other stars? We will have to see. If they don't, it just adds to the injury risk.
I put the over/under of times over the next two years where Melo is either:
1)playing hurt in ways that kill his shooting percentage, or
2)missing several weeks in a row,
I'm not saying "straight out tank" is the strategy, but part of a bigger picture. The teams to emulate going forward are the Sixers and Nets.
Both have cleared their caps of bad contracts. The Sixers will eventually have to pay some of their young guys- but they left space for that.
Both teams know that it will be VERY difficult to attract star level FA in the near term. So what they have done well is to "rent out" their cap space to take on a bad contract from other teams- and require the other team to give them picks for getting rid of the contracts.
What the Knicks have done with the Melo deal is to set themselves up short term to be a team that has the cap space to take on a bad contract for picks. Even with Zinger, they are not going to get stars to sign with them for a couple years until Zinger emerges as a true star himself and the bad memories of poor management fade among the players.
Therefore, when Kanter opts out next summer, and assuming that the Knicks can move KOQ, Lee and or Thomas for cap space themselves, they can be as much as $40M under the cap next summer.
They won't get any of the stars unless LBJ decides that he wants Zinger and 2 more to build a super team (which doesn't work under the cap anyway). So, the Knicks can use that space to get a team that is mid level or worse, but has no cap space (looking at you Charlotte and Detroit) to trade a bad contract to the Knicks- but send it with their 1st rounder.
Until the Knicks can get Noah off the books, they are stuck in limbo. He likely can't be traded until he becomes an expiring deal himself in 2 years, so the Knicks can become a team that takes bad contract that expire at the same time as Noah- or a year earlier than Noah's- and collect picks and cheap players on the roster until all those bad deals come off the books.
Zinger will need a mega deal by that point, but the cap will be free enough that they can add a star, maybe 2 in FA- and will hopefully will have drafted one or two high picks, combined with picks in the teens to be the role players a winning team needs- at rookie contract prices- to move from nothing to something within 3 years.
THAT is what Melo was moved for what they got. If you can't wrap your head around that- then sorry, you just don't get it.
I'm not saying "straight out tank" is the strategy, but part of a bigger picture. The teams to emulate going forward are the Sixers and Nets.
Both have cleared their caps of bad contracts. The Sixers will eventually have to pay some of their young guys- but they left space for that.
Both teams know that it will be VERY difficult to attract star level FA in the near term. So what they have done well is to "rent out" their cap space to take on a bad contract from other teams- and require the other team to give them picks for getting rid of the contracts.
What the Knicks have done with the Melo deal is to set themselves up short term to be a team that has the cap space to take on a bad contract for picks. Even with Zinger, they are not going to get stars to sign with them for a couple years until Zinger emerges as a true star himself and the bad memories of poor management fade among the players.
Therefore, when Kanter opts out next summer, and assuming that the Knicks can move KOQ, Lee and or Thomas for cap space themselves, they can be as much as $40M under the cap next summer.
They won't get any of the stars unless LBJ decides that he wants Zinger and 2 more to build a super team (which doesn't work under the cap anyway). So, the Knicks can use that space to get a team that is mid level or worse, but has no cap space (looking at you Charlotte and Detroit) to trade a bad contract to the Knicks- but send it with their 1st rounder.
Until the Knicks can get Noah off the books, they are stuck in limbo. He likely can't be traded until he becomes an expiring deal himself in 2 years, so the Knicks can become a team that takes bad contract that expire at the same time as Noah- or a year earlier than Noah's- and collect picks and cheap players on the roster until all those bad deals come off the books.
Zinger will need a mega deal by that point, but the cap will be free enough that they can add a star, maybe 2 in FA- and will hopefully will have drafted one or two high picks, combined with picks in the teens to be the role players a winning team needs- at rookie contract prices- to move from nothing to something within 3 years.
THAT is what Melo was moved for what they got. If you can't wrap your head around that- then sorry, you just don't get it.
Your post is condescending, which is weird because the premise is that the trade is fine because something Nets/Sixers. Except we plainly are not following the Sixers model. We arent even emulating the Nets Russell deal. There is zero evidence we're renting out cap space to gain futures. THJR 100% doesnt fit that model.
I would have tanked and rented cap space. But I think the people looking to analyze any Knicks transaction in terms of how it advances a Sixers style process are being silly. We arent doing that.
I dont care for the trade. It still smacks of a dump to me unless we're turning Kanter or McBuckets into a longer term future asset in the short term, or unless we think Kanter's weight loss will make him a passable defender and want to sign him long term.
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
They have to try and move one of Kanter/Noah/KOQ (at least). It's just too many guys who are 100% 5's (KOQ can play some 4) but Willy really can't.
Maybe they flip one, or both for more picks? OKC didn't really have the picks to offer.
I'm with you on this. Don't know what people expected for Melo.
Best of luck !
Kanter will be flipped later this year.
Perry is our God
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Don't really know what people were expecting. We HAD to take bad salary no matter what due to Melo's huge contract. 2 years for Kanter is better than 3 for Anderson or Meyers Leonard, and now we can have a full rebuild year. Sucks but it's where we are right now.
I'm with you on this. Don't know what people expected for Melo.
if the best long term piece you have coming back is a single second round pick - you wait.
Yup pretty much this. Kanter may be a better fit now that we're going to stop trying to force some fucking quasi sorta-triangle nonsense on the squad, but either way he becomes an expiring contract next year that we can trade too
Would the knicks consider dealing Willy ? I don't know his future I'd like to think we keep him and see where his potential lies... but I'd also think of dealing Willy of the return was too good to pass up. That's probably not likely.
Could they deal kanter mid season ?
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Offensive player, pathetic on defense. Rough fit with Willy
Would the knicks consider dealing Willy ? I don't know his future I'd like to think we keep him and see where his potential lies... but I'd also think of dealing Willy of the return was too good to pass up. That's probably not likely.
Could they deal kanter mid season ?
The likely answer is they see Kanter as someone they move going forward. Doubtful Willy has much trade value after 1 solid season.
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In comment 13611576 guitarguybs12 said:
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Don't really know what people were expecting. We HAD to take bad salary no matter what due to Melo's huge contract. 2 years for Kanter is better than 3 for Anderson or Meyers Leonard, and now we can have a full rebuild year. Sucks but it's where we are right now.
I'm with you on this. Don't know what people expected for Melo.
if the best long term piece you have coming back is a single second round pick - you wait.
Wait for what? Christmas? Good luck with that. Wait and knowing the knicks luck melo rips up his acl and we're stuck with him.
He's gone and the knicks didn't take back overpaid trash. Take it and run.
I guess the only question is could we have gotten better value by holding out until the deadline, but can't fault the Knicks for choosing to ship cranky Melo out of town now
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In comment 13611576 guitarguybs12 said:
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Don't really know what people were expecting. We HAD to take bad salary no matter what due to Melo's huge contract. 2 years for Kanter is better than 3 for Anderson or Meyers Leonard, and now we can have a full rebuild year. Sucks but it's where we are right now.
I'm with you on this. Don't know what people expected for Melo.
if the best long term piece you have coming back is a single second round pick - you wait.
Wait for what, exactly? For Melo to be just good enough to win some meaningless games and prevent them from getting a top 5 pick?
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Offensive player, pathetic on defense. Rough fit with Willy
Would the knicks consider dealing Willy ? I don't know his future I'd like to think we keep him and see where his potential lies... but I'd also think of dealing Willy of the return was too good to pass up. That's probably not likely.
Could they deal kanter mid season ?
Wily has a ton of value but he's the kind of guy you throw into a package to get a star..which isn't really the sort of trade this team will be making anytime soon. Unless they do an old school "challenge" trade and trade him for a young guard or a wing.
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In comment 13611587 Del Shofner said:
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In comment 13611576 guitarguybs12 said:
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Don't really know what people were expecting. We HAD to take bad salary no matter what due to Melo's huge contract. 2 years for Kanter is better than 3 for Anderson or Meyers Leonard, and now we can have a full rebuild year. Sucks but it's where we are right now.
I'm with you on this. Don't know what people expected for Melo.
if the best long term piece you have coming back is a single second round pick - you wait.
Wait for what? Christmas? Good luck with that. Wait and knowing the knicks luck melo rips up his acl and we're stuck with him.
He's gone and the knicks didn't take back overpaid trash. Take it and run.
yup, this was the best possible return they were getting! Nobody else was going to offer more than a second rounder! Gotta take it! Just like they HAD to do all of the other dumb moves you've defended the last few years.
I love it.
Woah I just assumed he was gone..
Damn that's weird.
So other than Noah not really any bad contracts. I'm excited to see hardaway here with the kids. I can get behind this group. Low expectations this season but a lot of youth and upside. As knicks fans we don't really get to experience these kind of fun seasons. If they win, lovely, if they lose -- tank and keep building.
The one thing we must shoot for in 2017-18 is KP taking another step forward. Gomez too. Ideally the knicks win in 2017 even though i know that would anger the tank crowd. I want to win. Winning is the ultimate perfume and can only help the culture here. But like I said if they lose, fine, get the draft star.
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In comment 13611606 Enzo said:
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In comment 13611587 Del Shofner said:
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In comment 13611576 guitarguybs12 said:
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Don't really know what people were expecting. We HAD to take bad salary no matter what due to Melo's huge contract. 2 years for Kanter is better than 3 for Anderson or Meyers Leonard, and now we can have a full rebuild year. Sucks but it's where we are right now.
I'm with you on this. Don't know what people expected for Melo.
if the best long term piece you have coming back is a single second round pick - you wait.
Wait for what? Christmas? Good luck with that. Wait and knowing the knicks luck melo rips up his acl and we're stuck with him.
He's gone and the knicks didn't take back overpaid trash. Take it and run.
yup, this was the best possible return they were getting! Nobody else was going to offer more than a second rounder! Gotta take it! Just like they HAD to do all of the other dumb moves you've defended the last few years.
Well they got more than just a second round pick. And you're a miserable negative fan that hates every single trade or move this team makes so we can just agree to disagree.
Also I don't defend every deal they make. I try to make peace with them. There's a difference. I don't love this deal at all. But I can make peace with it. It's not a deal that sets us back. It's also a huge huge risk to "wait." But let's not address that am I right? You're always right I guess. You're gonna guarantee us all that waiting to deal melo doesn't hurt in the long run? You can't. Can you? This isn't a game it's a risk either way whether you acknowledge this or not. Also, the knicks did in fact wait. They could have made a terrible trade two months ago.
So other than Noah not really any bad contracts.
Thomas? He's a waste of a signing
I agree. Neither player can play a lick of defense.
Dan - aren't Kanter and Willy both C's? I didn't see them playing together anyway, I thought one would back up the other.
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can really score, his defense is really, really bad. McDermott career 39% from 3, not a bad player. Again my concern is Kanter/Willy. They can't play together.
Dan - aren't Kanter and Willy both C's? I didn't see them playing together anyway, I thought one would back up the other.
Well that's my point. You aren't going to have Willy on the court with Kanter and they already have Noah. Kanter is going to eat into Willy's minutes, no way around it.
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In comment 13611610 DanMetroMan said:
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can really score, his defense is really, really bad. McDermott career 39% from 3, not a bad player. Again my concern is Kanter/Willy. They can't play together.
Dan - aren't Kanter and Willy both C's? I didn't see them playing together anyway, I thought one would back up the other.
Well that's my point. You aren't going to have Willy on the court with Kanter and they already have Noah. Kanter is going to eat into Willy's minutes, no way around it.
One would think Perry is aware of this. I don't think he's done dealing.
This is all yours now KP.
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In comment 13611610 DanMetroMan said:
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can really score, his defense is really, really bad. McDermott career 39% from 3, not a bad player. Again my concern is Kanter/Willy. They can't play together.
Dan - aren't Kanter and Willy both C's? I didn't see them playing together anyway, I thought one would back up the other.
Well that's my point. You aren't going to have Willy on the court with Kanter and they already have Noah. Kanter is going to eat into Willy's minutes, no way around it.
I see what you meant now. I misread your other post.
I'm not worried about Noah - he'll be suspended for a while and then he can be an emergency backup. He shouldn't get playing time.
There may be another move or moves coming, but if not I don't think Willy and Kanter splitting time is so bad. Wasn't Kanter the second-string C at OKC? That's how their depth chart showed it. Give Willy 28 or 30 minutes and Kanter 18 or 20.
huh? he is 33 nobody was getting a. 1st for melo, did the pacers get a 1st for george?
and how is it a bad trade? both players are still young and neither kill the cap...
Are Kanter or McDermott guaranteed to be on the roster in 2 years? If the answer is no, then what did you just trade Melo for? Even a very low first has value for a rebuilding franchise.
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getting a low round pick in the first round really makes a difference.
Are Kanter or McDermott guaranteed to be on the roster in 2 years? If the answer is no, then what did you just trade Melo for? Even a very low first has value for a rebuilding franchise.
the pick they got could be 31...
also with the only teams melo was willing to go to being cleveland houston or okc this was tje best possible deal...
I think so.
Is anyone still opposed to the trade? Or are you cool with being on the same side of the argument as Paul?
This is pretty much a guarantee that the trade is good for the Knicks.
Who Cares (jack, sessions, Baker)/Frank
THJR/Dotson
Beasley/Kuz/Thomas
KP/Kanter
WH/KOQ/Noah
I just want to see Frank, THJR, WH, KP and even kanter get around 30-35 minutes a game. I dont want to see Session, Jack, Thomas, Lee, Noah, etc.. Eating up anywhere near 30 minutes.
How do you know this? How do you know he wouldn't decline even more or worse yet, injure himself? The only guarantee that keeping Melo on the roster would provide is more meaningless wins and lower draft position. Period. Melos trade stock was very, very unlikely to rise at this stage of his career.
Best to clear that atmosphere out in off-season, and get what you can get.
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getting a low round pick in the first round really makes a difference.
Are Kanter or McDermott guaranteed to be on the roster in 2 years? If the answer is no, then what did you just trade Melo for? Even a very low first has value for a rebuilding franchise.
The only guy connected to the Melo trade talks who was guaranteed to be on the roster in two years was Ryan Anderson. Would that have been a positive? It seems like you think guaranteeing someone will be on the roster in two years is a good thing. Melo also wouldn't have been on the roster in two years.
I don't think people understood what Melo's actual trade value was - this was a pretty good trade for the Knicks compared to the alternatives.
But lets imagine for a second that wasn't the case and Houston, Cleveland, and OKC were all willing to deal for him then. You risk Melo getting hurt, showing more signs of declining as a player and a lost half seasons of KP's development being stunted, not to mention some extra wins that can be the difference between a top 3 and 6-8th pick. And for what? At most, they'd get late 1st instead of Chicago's second.
How is the risk/reward profile there even remotely the smart play? If any of those things happen either it's Anderson or nothing or he opts in because he wouldn't be sniffing anywhere close to ~$26M a year in the open market. That would be incredibly stupid for a pick that will be at most 8 spots higher than the one they got in this deal.
And they aren't just getting a second round pick. They are getting good shot at a substantially higher first round pick than of Melo stayed. And, as Phil noted, there could be another trae or two coming. A talented young, cheap big like Hernangomez has considerable trade value. The question is when. Remember that Billy was first-team all-rookie. And he's 23 and still in the very early part of his growth.
Assuming Kantor takes that slot, Billy could be worth a lot more at some point than a high-salary, much older Melo with a no-trade clause was.
Also, now was the time to trade Melo, for so many reasons. Waiting longer would have made very little sense IMO.
PF- Kristaps Porzingis, Kyle O’Quinn
SF- Doug McDermott, Lance Thomas, Michael Beasley, Mindaugus Kuzminskas, Nigel Hayes (R)
SG- Tim Hardaway Jr., Courtney Lee, Ron Baker, Damyean Dotson (R), Jamel Artis (R), Xavier Rathan-Mayes (R)
PG- Ramon Sessions, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina (R), Ognen Jaramaz (R)''
------------------------
C- Hernangomez ----- defense at arc /rebounds on O
PF- Kanter -----------offense, rebounds on D
SF= Kuz (or whomever you guys think is best-a ball mover)
SG- Porzingas ----------shoots blocks shots
PG- Frenchy ------------shoots and moves ball
Yeah, but I doubt he's a piece they want to build around. I bet he gets traded.
PF: KP, Beasley, KOQ
SF: Thomas, McDermott, Kuz
SG: THJr, Lee, Dotson
PG: Baker, Frank, Sessions/Jack
Westchester or cut:
Artis
Hayes
Jaramaz
Kornet
XRM
Sessions/Jack
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With every press release.
Yeah, but I doubt he's a piece they want to build around. I bet he gets traded.
Yeah, that would probably be the thing to do. I don't see the fit here, but maybe he's a nice asset to move.
Who Cares (jack, sessions, Baker)/Frank
THJR/Dotson
Beasley/Kuz/Thomas
KP/Kanter
WH/KOQ/Noah
I would have thought KOQ at PF and Kanter at C?
Also, now was the time to trade Melo, for so many reasons. Waiting longer would have made very little sense IMO.
Neither one of them is under contract beyond this season, so what difference does it make how old they are? If you told me we were getting McDermott at his current price for 2 or 3 more years, that's fine. Instead, he might be making 3 or 4 times his salary for this season going forward. The only way Kanter doesn't opt out is if one of his legs fall off during the season. Who knows how good the first round pick would be, but we do know he would be here with the other young players they have now for the foreseeable future.
its like people who say 'dont play pugh at left tackle because of the money coming into a contract year.'
really? Like, if he was great at it, that would be a bad thing? madness, one would happily pay for it..
Could have. Emphasis on "could"
Holding melo comes with a risk. As long as all the so called realists out there acknowledge that holding melo brings with it various risks...
No one loves this trade but holding melo until the deadline only to see him pull a hammy or struggle means worst case scenario. I'd rather take 25 cents on the dollar now rather than eat the shitty or hurt player later.
And really, what would the knicks get if melo is traded by the deadline?? The knicks exhausted trade proposals for a full year now. What the hell were they getting?
The only guy connected to the Melo trade talks who was guaranteed to be on the roster in two years was Ryan Anderson. Would that have been a positive? It seems like you think guaranteeing someone will be on the roster in two years is a good thing. Melo also wouldn't have been on the roster in two years.
I don't think people understood what Melo's actual trade value was - this was a pretty good trade for the Knicks compared to the alternatives.
If they don't overpay or match McDermott's offer next offseason, they could wind up with nothing for Melo other than a 2nd round pick. That's basically trading him for nothing. That's why you want a first round pick, especially with the players they got back. At least get the right to a swap or a protected first.
There has to be a middle ground between Ryan Anderson and possibly nothing.
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
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You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
I don't want Melo on this team at all, but I'm not willing to trade him for what could be nothing relatively soon just to avoid the discomfort of Melo in training camp. You do realize that 12 months from today Kanter and McDermott could be on different teams? The Knicks would've basically ended up trading Melo for a 2nd round pick. How can anyone spin that as a positive?
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In comment 13611869 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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...
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
I don't want Melo on this team at all, but I'm not willing to trade him for what could be nothing relatively soon just to avoid the discomfort of Melo in training camp. You do realize that 12 months from today Kanter and McDermott could be on different teams? The Knicks would've basically ended up trading Melo for a 2nd round pick. How can anyone spin that as a positive?
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
i thought humorus some mentioned Brklyn pick
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In comment 13611869 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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...
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
I don't want Melo on this team at all, but I'm not willing to trade him for what could be nothing relatively soon just to avoid the discomfort of Melo in training camp. You do realize that 12 months from today Kanter and McDermott could be on different teams? The Knicks would've basically ended up trading Melo for a 2nd round pick. How can anyone spin that as a positive?
And 12 months from now, Melo could have opted out as well. And then the Knicks would also be left with nothing. Or no deal could materialize, and the Knicks could be forced to buy him out and they'd be left with less than nothing - they'd have residual cap damage.
The 2nd round pick they got is likely to be only a few slots behind whatever fictional 1st round pick you're wishing they'd have gotten. And the two guys you're so worried about leaving for nothing are still tradable assets (both with value, neither with NTCs), so the Knicks still have an opportunity to further convert this return into future value.
You misunderstood Melo's trade value and are upset with the trade as a result. That's fine. But at some point you have to realize that there weren't any suitors banging down the door, and you can't ignore the fact that at any time Melo could have reneged on his approved list (like he had done once before with Cleveland). Why would you take that risk? What's the upside? For a potential pick swap years down the road? For a late 20's 1st round pick instead of an early/mid 30's 2nd round pick? What if the 1st round pick you so desperately wish they'd have gotten also came with an albatross contract? The Knicks could only deal with teams that Melo approved, and then had to make the money match. That's an incredibly limited universe of options.
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
Who's talking about holding onto him until the deadline? (I keep having to respond to these strawman arguments.) I'm just saying you can't be so frightened by the prospect of him walking through the door at training camp that you trade him for what could easily be nothing but a 2nd round pick 12 months from today. The reports of Melo expanding his list came out yesterday(?) and he was traded 24 hours later. We couldn't have waited for this deal a little while longer? I never for one second thought that the Knicks were getting a haul. However, outside of the prospect of paying Doug McDermott 3-5 times what he's making now, we might end up with zero long term pieces out of trading Melo. That's nothing to get excited about.
Which would have been even worse for the Knicks
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Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
Who's talking about holding onto him until the deadline? (I keep having to respond to these strawman arguments.) I'm just saying you can't be so frightened by the prospect of him walking through the door at training camp that you trade him for what could easily be nothing but a 2nd round pick 12 months from today. The reports of Melo expanding his list came out yesterday(?) and he was traded 24 hours later. We couldn't have waited for this deal a little while longer? I never for one second thought that the Knicks were getting a haul. However, outside of the prospect of paying Doug McDermott 3-5 times what he's making now, we might end up with zero long term pieces out of trading Melo. That's nothing to get excited about.
You seem to ignore ALOT of the posts that counter yours. Lantern and McDermott are tradeable assets that could net more picks. Forcfucks sake man. A mid 20's pick means that much to you that you're completely blind to everything else? Damn man
You seem to ignore ALOT of the posts that counter yours. Lantern and McDermott are tradeable assets that could net more picks. Forcfucks sake man. A mid 20's pick means that much to you that you're completely blind to everything else? Damn man
So we can't trade Melo for anything, but we'll trade 2 guys (1 who will opt out and another who will get 3-5 times more expensive) for more picks?
Thought they were rebuilding.
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You seem to ignore ALOT of the posts that counter yours. Lantern and McDermott are tradeable assets that could net more picks. Forcfucks sake man. A mid 20's pick means that much to you that you're completely blind to everything else? Damn man
So we can't trade Melo for anything, but we'll trade 2 guys (1 who will opt out and another who will get 3-5 times more expensive) for more picks?
They don't have no trade clauses. And here's a bit of a hint for you - it's not uncommon for contenders to add reinforcements at the deadline without concern for whether those players will be on the roster beyond that season. You just have a misunderstood view of the NBA trade market.
Thought they were rebuilding.
Chicago didn't do the deal. The Knicks traded with Oklahoma City.
Just to point out the obvious.
Some posters seem to be ignoring that obvious point.
If the are not on this team in 2 years its because their contracts expired and that too comes with a lot of value in the NBA.
Either way the Knicks have some value in the two players. Its not getting "nothing"
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Chicago do this deal?
Thought they were rebuilding.
Chicago didn't do the deal. The Knicks traded with Oklahoma City.
Duh.
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Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
Who's talking about holding onto him until the deadline? (I keep having to respond to these strawman arguments.) I'm just saying you can't be so frightened by the prospect of him walking through the door at training camp that you trade him for what could easily be nothing but a 2nd round pick 12 months from today. The reports of Melo expanding his list came out yesterday(?) and he was traded 24 hours later. We couldn't have waited for this deal a little while longer? I never for one second thought that the Knicks were getting a haul. However, outside of the prospect of paying Doug McDermott 3-5 times what he's making now, we might end up with zero long term pieces out of trading Melo. That's nothing to get excited about.
You do realize that Melo still hadn't waived his NTC, right? He expanded his list but it's not like that was a formal process where that list became an amendment to his contract. How do you know that he didn't tell the Knicks that he would expand his list but it was conditional on him being before the start of camp on Monday?
The other bit of news that had come out yesterday was that Melo was pushing the Knicks hard to get a deal done before the start of camp - do you really think Melo just expanded his list without some sort of hammer?
Porzingis
Hernangomez
Frenchy
2018 lottery pick
2018 early second round pick
Dotson
This is a good young core to build off of. 2018-2019 season should be better but prob still a late lottery team. Then 2020 you have tons of cap space with young improving team that should be able to attract free agwnts.
Last time I checked, Chris Paul isn't exactly a spring chicken, makes a shit ton of money, was also a disgruntled player that foruhis way off a team, and has his own injury concerns. And he netted a fucking haul AND a first round pick.
Now, I'm fine with this trade (if nothing more than I'm just sick of seeing emo-Melo on this team any longer). And I understand that the return that teams get for players is affected by so many variables. And stop using PH as an example why teams don't give up firsts anymore. IND had a MUCH better deal offered but didn't pull the trigger. Then they eventually went forward with that garbage trade the PG.
I don't know if it is a NY bias, an inept NY front office, or the total botch job they did on the Melo situation...but I'm so sick of the valueless, aging star shit that only seems to apply to Melo. I can almost guarantee that Melo will be damn good when playing on a team that isn't the poster child for dysfunction.
Last time I checked, Chris Paul isn't exactly a spring chicken, makes a shit ton of money, was also a disgruntled player that foruhis way off a team, and has his own injury concerns. And he netted a fucking haul AND a first round pick.
Now, I'm fine with this trade (if nothing more than I'm just sick of seeing emo-Melo on this team any longer). And I understand that the return that teams get for players is affected by so many variables. And stop using PH as an example why teams don't give up firsts anymore. IND had a MUCH better deal offered but didn't pull the trigger. Then they eventually went forward with that garbage trade the PG.
I don't know if it is a NY bias, an inept NY front office, or the total botch job they did on the Melo situation...but I'm so sick of the valueless, aging star shit that only seems to apply to Melo. I can almost guarantee that Melo will be damn good when playing on a team that isn't the poster child for dysfunction.
Chris Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>Melo. Absolutely dreadful comparison.
Plus, the disparity in returns for each player was pretty drastic. However, point guard is a premium position and there was a team that felt they were a player away. Like I said, timing is everything. All it takes is one team. A lot of variables need to come together.
Take away the NTC and the Phil botch-job, and Melo should have netted a lot more. That killed us.
Some of you are equating "don't be afraid of Melo showing up for camp" with "if we wait, we'll get 10 first round picks for him". I'm not blind about Melo's value. I just wanted a first round pick, regardless of where it was. (A first round pick is still better than Chicago's 2nd rounder, even if there's not a lot of difference in the spots.) Some seem to be arguing he has no value while others are saying he does have value because Kanter and McDermott will at the very least be tradeable assets. I have doubts about their attractiveness as deadline trading chips, especially if their value is in any way dependent on how they look with a shit Knicks team.
I'm not even arguing this isn't the best trade they could make. I'm arguing that they could've waited a little while to make it unless I'm unaware of a list of players who've blown their knees out on the first day of training camp. Who knows... maybe the deals were already agreed to and were simply awaiting Melo's expansion of his list. For me, these 2 players (especially with their contract situations) are nothing to get excited about now or as potential chips.
BTW, I was fairly confident the Knicks were going to be GOD-awful even if Melo somehow stuck around.
You are a fan who is erroneously mistaking their beliefs as fact. To be even more blunt, you have no idea how NBA trades work, and have abundantly demonstrated that you know even less about trade value or leverage.
Thus, your fact-free tirades that make less and less sense as you defend a completely indefensible belief, are a waste of everyone's time.
Are we clear now?
You are a fan who is erroneously mistaking their beliefs as fact. To be even more blunt, you have no idea how NBA trades work, and have abundantly demonstrated that you know even less about trade value or leverage.
Thus, your fact-free tirades that make less and less sense as you defend a completely indefensible belief, are a waste of everyone's time.
Are we clear now?
+1
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
Quote:
You are completely blind to the fact that Melo making 28 million has absolutely no value. There is no need to bring him to training camp. This is the best they were going to get, Cleveland offered Shump and Frye, Houston wouldn't even trade Gordon and ariza. He was not going to go to Portland. So that's it no other competing team has interest or space to take him. Who cares if Knicks have kanter or Mcdermont on the roster in 2 years. This trade all but guarantees a top 5 pick next rather than a pick 8-12. If we end up getting a top 3 pick we are talking about a true franchise player added to our young nucleus. Kanter hopefully opts out after this year and Mcdermont gets traded at some point for a second rounder or you let him walk. If you can trade lee and Thomas during the season, you have
Some of you are equating "don't be afraid of Melo showing up for camp" with "if we wait, we'll get 10 first round picks for him". I'm not blind about Melo's value. I just wanted a first round pick, regardless of where it was. (A first round pick is still better than Chicago's 2nd rounder, even if there's not a lot of difference in the spots.) Some seem to be arguing he has no value while others are saying he does have value because Kanter and McDermott will at the very least be tradeable assets. I have doubts about their attractiveness as deadline trading chips, especially if their value is in any way dependent on how they look with a shit Knicks team.
I'm not even arguing this isn't the best trade they could make. I'm arguing that they could've waited a little while to make it unless I'm unaware of a list of players who've blown their knees out on the first day of training camp. Who knows... maybe the deals were already agreed to and were simply awaiting Melo's expansion of his list. For me, these 2 players (especially with their contract situations) are nothing to get excited about now or as potential chips.
BTW, I was fairly confident the Knicks were going to be GOD-awful even if Melo somehow stuck around.
Holy shit. You are abysmal. You don't care WHERE the first rounder was or even the fact that it would be only a couple of picks ahead of Chicagos 2nd rounder? You just wanted a first rounder? For the love of God, I've heard everything now. Good night. You should be REALLY embarrassed at your exhibition tonight.
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
Or maybe he regresses more. Or maybe he gets injured. The chance of his trade value declining far outweighs any slim chance that his trade value increases. Haven't they been trying to trade him for over a year now? How many teams were knocking down the door last trade deadline? He's somehow going to be more valuable a year later? And how about the fact that keeping him around likely adds to more meaningless wins? They go from top 5 to maybe the tenth pick? Or worse?
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
Maybe he told them to begin with that he was expanding his list until the start of training camp only and then he was locking in on his NTC. You're right that he had the clear need to be off the team. He also held all the cards as it related to that. Yes, the Knicks could have called his bluff, but to what end?
Do you really not think Melo expanded his list without a countdown clock attached to it? Everything is quid pro quo, everything.
And he didn't have as much value as some people are overstating, but despite that being made apparent, we're gonna conclude the Knicks botched something because they didn't get the return you fantasized about. A 33 year old beat up all-offense, limited athlete, declining player in an option year with a $28m price tag. What a catch that guy would be for any team.
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
That's correct. Too many fans on this site have deluded themselves into thinking that they MUST know more about NOW trades than those making them. No one was going to offer the Knicks even close to value.
The reason is simple. The Knicks had zero leverage. Thus, their goal was NOT to maximize value, but to minimize the future damage to the cap and team.
This is no different than if someone is selling their car to a dealer. You won't get the full value for the car- the dealer knows you are selling because you have to, and has no incentive to cut into their own profit. Thus, you get the best deal you can make and limit the damage.
Why should the Knicks add a player who will be on the team in 3 years when no one is offering a meaningful player? That is adding another problem when there is no need to.
First round picks are high value currency in the cap age. No one is giving one up when the other team has to move the player.
Quote:
deal (potentially) if they had waited a little longer? Has does this factor into trade value or leverage?
Melo had a clear need to be off this team. He was the one that made the first move to open up his list of teams. The Knicks were in the drivers seat on this one (for once). Maybe he expands his list again? Maybe another team's player gets injured. Maybe another team gets off to a fast start and sees Melo as a last piece. Lots of variables.
Just curious on what you mean.
Or maybe he regresses more. Or maybe he gets injured. The chance of his trade value declining far outweighs any slim chance that his trade value increases. Haven't they been trying to trade him for over a year now? How many teams were knocking down the door last trade deadline? He's somehow going to be more valuable a year later? And how about the fact that keeping him around likely adds to more meaningless wins? They go from top 5 to maybe the tenth pick? Or worse?
Don't disagree with anything you said. It would be a risk to hold onto Melo also.
PF: KP, Beasley, KOQ
SF: Thomas, McDermott, Kuz
SG: THJr, Lee, Dotson
PG: Baker, Frank, Sessions/Jack
Westchester or cut:
Artis
Hayes
Jaramaz
Kornet
XRM
Sessions/Jack
Kornet signed a 2 way contract back in July Teams will have a 15 man roster plus 2 2-way players. I think it's a max of 45 days the 2 2-way can spend w/their NBA team w/the majority of the time spent w/the minor league club.
04 Pistons aside, you need a top ~5 player and a lot more to have a shot. Melo was never really in that class of player IMO. But if he had been on LeBron's team he'd have won a title. There are lots of guys who will push for the HOF who wouldnt win titles if they werent with all timers. Kyrie and Love. Bosh. Parker and Manu. Melo was better than all of them IMO, or at least right there with the best of them.
...this season. Ho-hum, what's new?
...this season. Ho-hum, what's new?
umm good? this draft is loaded
You are a fan who is erroneously mistaking their beliefs as fact. To be even more blunt, you have no idea how NBA trades work, and have abundantly demonstrated that you know even less about trade value or leverage.
Thus, your fact-free tirades that make less and less sense as you defend a completely indefensible belief, are a waste of everyone's time.
Are we clear now?
Jeez, an internet asshole... you should be proud of yourself. If you're incapable of disagreeing with someone (and that's all I was doing, no tirades involved) without resorting to horseshit you wouldn't say to their face, then don't even bother. I don't think I've ever read a more batshit insane response to someone voicing mild displeasure. One would think I said burn down the Garden and everyone in it. It truly makes me believe you're a miserable human being.
How is the Knicks waiting until Monday to make this trade indefensible? The ONLY argument I've seen against that here is that Melo put some clock on his approval/expansion of list. What if the Knicks refused to be bound by that clock? Will he somehow force their hand by showing up and staying at a place he has even less interest in being than the Knicks have in keeping him? (According to Pete Vecsey, Melo already told them he wasn't showing up to camp.) Do you truly believe this deal was going somewhere in the next 36 hours? Your argument that we were never going to get Melo's true value, so we had to jump on this as if it were the greatest deal in the world makes makes absolutely no sense. We ALL agree about the Knicks leverage and Melo's value. The sole purpose of this deal appears to be clearing cap space. While I had zero interest in Ryan Anderson (or anyone like that) and never had any expectation of getting young, cheap talent in return, cap space on this team is FAR less important than getting a first round draft pick. That's just my opinion. No one else has to agree with that. (And apparently some people don't understand that a first round pick is more valuable than a second round pick.)
Like I've already said, it's entirely possible this is the best we could do. But why not wait until Monday? Were the Thunder going to offer less? Were they going to change their minds? Of course not, this is a terrific deal for them. I don't see how that is even remotely controversial.
...this season. Ho-hum, what's new?
That's about 25-30 too many
You or anyone else is free to disagree with me, but it's not as if there's widespread approval of this deal from people who cover the sport. But we're just discussing a basketball trade here... no need for it to escalate beyond that.
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
It kind of is a dump. Phil poisoned the situation and made it rather impossible to keep him around. If the seller doesn't value the item they're selling, why should the buyer?
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
I think it just comes to two questions. 1. Do you think they could have gotten more?
2. Do you think they needed to trade Melo before the year started?
I am a no and then a yes. The Knicks had 0 leverage, and other teams knew that. If you read through the Woj article, this was actually by far the best option since Melo refused to go to Portland. Other packages were Shump/Frye (which would have been hilarious) and that Anderson nonsense.
Moving Melo now was the right move. He was good enough to win them more games than they should, and would have been just enough of a malcontent to hurt team chemistry. They can officially turn the page to the KP era. That's a big win.
I agree I'm not thrilled with the return, but we did get two 25 year old NBA players who are worthy of a rotation spot (and on short term deals) and a pick in the 30s. It certainly could have been worse.
Your other points are fair though. It's a strange roster with a lot of overlap. I bet Noah gets stretched next offseason, but no reason to do it now.
Right now my focus this year is 1. Developing the youth. 2. Showcasing guys.
KOQ/Lee remain good trade bait. Kanter is also good trade bait potentially. All three are helpful players to an NBA contender.
I'd keep Dougie Buckets to see if he can stretch the floor/be our new Steve Novak.
The weirdest new issue we have is the logjam at PG. Obviously Frank is there and needs to play, at least a little. But Sessions was brought in to be the starter, and Baker will play, but then why bring in Jarret Jack? We're at a roster crunch and he seems the most likely to get the axe.
Maybe they can pick up another perimeter player like Sexton/Duval/Doncic.
I think it just comes to two questions. 1. Do you think they could have gotten more?
2. Do you think they needed to trade Melo before the year started?
I am a no and then a yes. The Knicks had 0 leverage, and other teams knew that. If you read through the Woj article, this was actually by far the best option since Melo refused to go to Portland. Other packages were Shump/Frye (which would have been hilarious) and that Anderson nonsense.
Moving Melo now was the right move. He was good enough to win them more games than they should, and would have been just enough of a malcontent to hurt team chemistry. They can officially turn the page to the KP era. That's a big win.
I agree I'm not thrilled with the return, but we did get two 25 year old NBA players who are worthy of a rotation spot (and on short term deals) and a pick in the 30s. It certainly could have been worse.
Your other points are fair though. It's a strange roster with a lot of overlap. I bet Noah gets stretched next offseason, but no reason to do it now.
Right now my focus this year is 1. Developing the youth. 2. Showcasing guys.
KOQ/Lee remain good trade bait. Kanter is also good trade bait potentially. All three are helpful players to an NBA contender.
I'd keep Dougie Buckets to see if he can stretch the floor/be our new Steve Novak.
The weirdest new issue we have is the logjam at PG. Obviously Frank is there and needs to play, at least a little. But Sessions was brought in to be the starter, and Baker will play, but then why bring in Jarret Jack? We're at a roster crunch and he seems the most likely to get the axe.
I cant say whether they could have gotten more today -- i have no idea how they scout the Thunder players and whether they want to pay them. I dont think Melo needed to be traded before the season, but all things considered, if you're moving him then sooner the better. Also he just added OKC so I wouldnt assume that he was always a no on POR.
There are too many useful NBA players on this roster who a rebuilding team doesnt need. Noah is untradable, but Lee, KOQ, McBuckets, Kanter, and Kuz (rumored interest around the league) should all be shopped. Trade 1-2 to get a non-lottery #1 in the next few drafts. Some of them are pretty cheap.
As far as Melo is concerned, I have given this some thought, too. No doubt Melo is still a world-class offensive player and spectacular athlete who draws multiple defenders constantly, and his rank belongs much higher than in some of the nonsensical polls.
But, here are the things for me:
--He is still a tweener who plays his best ball at the 4, but takes away an inside rebounding/defense spot by doing so. At the 3, he needs help all of the time on defense.
--It isn't at all clear to me that he can stay healthy, especially over a span of more than one season. Playing inside as much as he does, and using body fakes as much as he does, he gets landed on, a lot. He has already had several shoulder injuries, and over time shoulders get worse, not better.
--And, of course, the refs have never protected him the way they protected most first line stars. Does that change on a team with other stars? We will have to see. If they don't, it just adds to the injury risk.
I put the over/under of times over the next two years where Melo is either:
1)playing hurt in ways that kill his shooting percentage, or
2)missing several weeks in a row,
at 5. And as he ages, the odds just go higher.
Both have cleared their caps of bad contracts. The Sixers will eventually have to pay some of their young guys- but they left space for that.
Both teams know that it will be VERY difficult to attract star level FA in the near term. So what they have done well is to "rent out" their cap space to take on a bad contract from other teams- and require the other team to give them picks for getting rid of the contracts.
What the Knicks have done with the Melo deal is to set themselves up short term to be a team that has the cap space to take on a bad contract for picks. Even with Zinger, they are not going to get stars to sign with them for a couple years until Zinger emerges as a true star himself and the bad memories of poor management fade among the players.
Therefore, when Kanter opts out next summer, and assuming that the Knicks can move KOQ, Lee and or Thomas for cap space themselves, they can be as much as $40M under the cap next summer.
They won't get any of the stars unless LBJ decides that he wants Zinger and 2 more to build a super team (which doesn't work under the cap anyway). So, the Knicks can use that space to get a team that is mid level or worse, but has no cap space (looking at you Charlotte and Detroit) to trade a bad contract to the Knicks- but send it with their 1st rounder.
Until the Knicks can get Noah off the books, they are stuck in limbo. He likely can't be traded until he becomes an expiring deal himself in 2 years, so the Knicks can become a team that takes bad contract that expire at the same time as Noah- or a year earlier than Noah's- and collect picks and cheap players on the roster until all those bad deals come off the books.
Zinger will need a mega deal by that point, but the cap will be free enough that they can add a star, maybe 2 in FA- and will hopefully will have drafted one or two high picks, combined with picks in the teens to be the role players a winning team needs- at rookie contract prices- to move from nothing to something within 3 years.
THAT is what Melo was moved for what they got. If you can't wrap your head around that- then sorry, you just don't get it.
Both have cleared their caps of bad contracts. The Sixers will eventually have to pay some of their young guys- but they left space for that.
Both teams know that it will be VERY difficult to attract star level FA in the near term. So what they have done well is to "rent out" their cap space to take on a bad contract from other teams- and require the other team to give them picks for getting rid of the contracts.
What the Knicks have done with the Melo deal is to set themselves up short term to be a team that has the cap space to take on a bad contract for picks. Even with Zinger, they are not going to get stars to sign with them for a couple years until Zinger emerges as a true star himself and the bad memories of poor management fade among the players.
Therefore, when Kanter opts out next summer, and assuming that the Knicks can move KOQ, Lee and or Thomas for cap space themselves, they can be as much as $40M under the cap next summer.
They won't get any of the stars unless LBJ decides that he wants Zinger and 2 more to build a super team (which doesn't work under the cap anyway). So, the Knicks can use that space to get a team that is mid level or worse, but has no cap space (looking at you Charlotte and Detroit) to trade a bad contract to the Knicks- but send it with their 1st rounder.
Until the Knicks can get Noah off the books, they are stuck in limbo. He likely can't be traded until he becomes an expiring deal himself in 2 years, so the Knicks can become a team that takes bad contract that expire at the same time as Noah- or a year earlier than Noah's- and collect picks and cheap players on the roster until all those bad deals come off the books.
Zinger will need a mega deal by that point, but the cap will be free enough that they can add a star, maybe 2 in FA- and will hopefully will have drafted one or two high picks, combined with picks in the teens to be the role players a winning team needs- at rookie contract prices- to move from nothing to something within 3 years.
THAT is what Melo was moved for what they got. If you can't wrap your head around that- then sorry, you just don't get it.
Your post is condescending, which is weird because the premise is that the trade is fine because something Nets/Sixers. Except we plainly are not following the Sixers model. We arent even emulating the Nets Russell deal. There is zero evidence we're renting out cap space to gain futures. THJR 100% doesnt fit that model.
I would have tanked and rented cap space. But I think the people looking to analyze any Knicks transaction in terms of how it advances a Sixers style process are being silly. We arent doing that.
Maybe they can pick up another perimeter player like Sexton/Duval/Doncic.
They're almost definitely going to have to be in the top 3-4 (and possibly in the top 1-2) to get Doncic.
1. Kanter can opt out and I cant even decide if that is good or bad for us.
2. McBuckets cant defend well; I am intrigued to see him with KP and Lee/THJR because we have several good inside scoring centers. If there was a PG in place it would be an offense.
3. The CHI #2 should be a good pick.
4. The center position is a mess. Kanter, Willy, Noah (none of whom can play with eachother I think). KOQ. KP should get some run a center to see if he's a 4 or a 5. A trade needs to happen. KOQ at least.
5. If McBuckets stays, shop Kuz.
6. I dont see an obvious landing spot for Kanter.
They have to try and move one of Kanter/Noah/KOQ (at least). It's just too many guys who are 100% 5's (KOQ can play some 4) but Willy really can't.