IND did not get a first for PG. Minn got a pick swap for Butler. You just dont see as many first going unless its in a salary dump (carrol trade) a true star (irving, CP3)
Could’ve held on to him and got more come trade deadline
How do you know this? How do you know he wouldn't decline even more or worse yet, injure himself? The only guarantee that keeping Melo on the roster would provide is more meaningless wins and lower draft position. Period. Melos trade stock was very, very unlikely to rise at this stage of his career.
getting a low round pick in the first round really makes a difference.
Are Kanter or McDermott guaranteed to be on the roster in 2 years? If the answer is no, then what did you just trade Melo for? Even a very low first has value for a rebuilding franchise.
The only guy connected to the Melo trade talks who was guaranteed to be on the roster in two years was Ryan Anderson. Would that have been a positive? It seems like you think guaranteeing someone will be on the roster in two years is a good thing. Melo also wouldn't have been on the roster in two years.
I don't think people understood what Melo's actual trade value was - this was a pretty good trade for the Knicks compared to the alternatives.
that are bitching about the trade would be the same guys bitch if they held on to him and he hurt his back or ruptured his Achilles and completely ruined all trade value while then opting in and leaving the Knicks on the hook for his entire salary. It's the same guys that bitch about EVERYTHING.
They tried this at last year's deadline and contending teams didn't want to integrate a player like that midseason.
But lets imagine for a second that wasn't the case and Houston, Cleveland, and OKC were all willing to deal for him then. You risk Melo getting hurt, showing more signs of declining as a player and a lost half seasons of KP's development being stunted, not to mention some extra wins that can be the difference between a top 3 and 6-8th pick. And for what? At most, they'd get late 1st instead of Chicago's second.
How is the risk/reward profile there even remotely the smart play? If any of those things happen either it's Anderson or nothing or he opts in because he wouldn't be sniffing anywhere close to ~$26M a year in the open market. That would be incredibly stupid for a pick that will be at most 8 spots higher than the one they got in this deal.
the atmosphere would have been if an unhappy, unwanted Melo stayed on the Knicks.
And they aren't just getting a second round pick. They are getting good shot at a substantially higher first round pick than of Melo stayed. And, as Phil noted, there could be another trae or two coming. A talented young, cheap big like Hernangomez has considerable trade value. The question is when. Remember that Billy was first-team all-rookie. And he's 23 and still in the very early part of his growth.
Assuming Kantor takes that slot, Billy could be worth a lot more at some point than a high-salary, much older Melo with a no-trade clause was.
we might be able to find takers for Lee and Kanter. And if they play ok i could see guys like Jack, Beasley, McBuckets, KOQ, etc.. having some value. We arent getting anything great but if we can turn them into some second rounders or a young guy with some upside id be all for it.
this must-get-first-round-pick stuff strikes me as illogical - Â
Kanter and McDermott are both 25. Both were first round picks. Kanter was a high first round pick, taken at #3. McDermott at #11. We just got two young first round picks in this trade. Where is the guarantee that our hypothetical first round pick we "should" have gotten is going to be better than a guy taken #3 in the entire draft? Who's got that crystal ball?
Also, now was the time to trade Melo, for so many reasons. Waiting longer would have made very little sense IMO.
wonder if Porz could now play some tall shooting guard Â
''C- Willy Hernangomez, Enes Kanter, Joakim Noah, Luke Kornet (R)
PF- Kristaps Porzingis, Kyle O’Quinn
SF- Doug McDermott, Lance Thomas, Michael Beasley, Mindaugus Kuzminskas, Nigel Hayes (R)
SG- Tim Hardaway Jr., Courtney Lee, Ron Baker, Damyean Dotson (R), Jamel Artis (R), Xavier Rathan-Mayes (R)
PG- Ramon Sessions, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina (R), Ognen Jaramaz (R)''
------------------------
C- Hernangomez ----- defense at arc /rebounds on O
PF- Kanter -----------offense, rebounds on D
SF= Kuz (or whomever you guys think is best-a ball mover)
SG- Porzingas ----------shoots blocks shots
PG- Frenchy ------------shoots and moves ball
good riddance, the trade when he came here broke up Â
Melo is a depreciating asset with a ton of miles on him. Every day the Knicks held onto him was one day closer to the wheels falling off. I hope he is energized in OKC and gets to finish his career on a good, contending team. In return, the Knicks get two former 1st rounders that are still only 25. Both can score and contribute. No more Phil, no more Melo....now the Knicks can truly start over.
Carmelo very similar to Vince Carter, great individual offensive talents who are not team players and, invariably, you don't win championships with them on your team. When Phil came to NY and, the first thing he did was to make resigning Carmelo a priority, I knew that the Knicks were going nowhere under his guidance.
RE: I hate that it sounds like we are holding onto Lee... Â
Kanter and McDermott are both 25. Both were first round picks. Kanter was a high first round pick, taken at #3. McDermott at #11. We just got two young first round picks in this trade. Where is the guarantee that our hypothetical first round pick we "should" have gotten is going to be better than a guy taken #3 in the entire draft? Who's got that crystal ball?
Also, now was the time to trade Melo, for so many reasons. Waiting longer would have made very little sense IMO.
Neither one of them is under contract beyond this season, so what difference does it make how old they are? If you told me we were getting McDermott at his current price for 2 or 3 more years, that's fine. Instead, he might be making 3 or 4 times his salary for this season going forward. The only way Kanter doesn't opt out is if one of his legs fall off during the season. Who knows how good the first round pick would be, but we do know he would be here with the other young players they have now for the foreseeable future.
or...they play great and fit in and its worth the money Â
Could’ve held on to him and got more come trade deadline
Could have. Emphasis on "could"
Holding melo comes with a risk. As long as all the so called realists out there acknowledge that holding melo brings with it various risks...
No one loves this trade but holding melo until the deadline only to see him pull a hammy or struggle means worst case scenario. I'd rather take 25 cents on the dollar now rather than eat the shitty or hurt player later.
And really, what would the knicks get if melo is traded by the deadline?? The knicks exhausted trade proposals for a full year now. What the hell were they getting?
The only guy connected to the Melo trade talks who was guaranteed to be on the roster in two years was Ryan Anderson. Would that have been a positive? It seems like you think guaranteeing someone will be on the roster in two years is a good thing. Melo also wouldn't have been on the roster in two years.
I don't think people understood what Melo's actual trade value was - this was a pretty good trade for the Knicks compared to the alternatives.
If they don't overpay or match McDermott's offer next offseason, they could wind up with nothing for Melo other than a 2nd round pick. That's basically trading him for nothing. That's why you want a first round pick, especially with the players they got back. At least get the right to a swap or a protected first.
There has to be a middle ground between Ryan Anderson and possibly nothing.
And when I say the right to swap, I mean a few years down the road. Â
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
RE: RE: And when I say the right to swap, I mean a few years down the road. Â
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
I don't want Melo on this team at all, but I'm not willing to trade him for what could be nothing relatively soon just to avoid the discomfort of Melo in training camp. You do realize that 12 months from today Kanter and McDermott could be on different teams? The Knicks would've basically ended up trading Melo for a 2nd round pick. How can anyone spin that as a positive?
RE: RE: RE: And when I say the right to swap, I mean a few years down the road. Â
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
I don't want Melo on this team at all, but I'm not willing to trade him for what could be nothing relatively soon just to avoid the discomfort of Melo in training camp. You do realize that 12 months from today Kanter and McDermott could be on different teams? The Knicks would've basically ended up trading Melo for a 2nd round pick. How can anyone spin that as a positive?
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
I don't want Melo on this team at all, but I'm not willing to trade him for what could be nothing relatively soon just to avoid the discomfort of Melo in training camp. You do realize that 12 months from today Kanter and McDermott could be on different teams? The Knicks would've basically ended up trading Melo for a 2nd round pick. How can anyone spin that as a positive?
And 12 months from now, Melo could have opted out as well. And then the Knicks would also be left with nothing. Or no deal could materialize, and the Knicks could be forced to buy him out and they'd be left with less than nothing - they'd have residual cap damage.
The 2nd round pick they got is likely to be only a few slots behind whatever fictional 1st round pick you're wishing they'd have gotten. And the two guys you're so worried about leaving for nothing are still tradable assets (both with value, neither with NTCs), so the Knicks still have an opportunity to further convert this return into future value.
You misunderstood Melo's trade value and are upset with the trade as a result. That's fine. But at some point you have to realize that there weren't any suitors banging down the door, and you can't ignore the fact that at any time Melo could have reneged on his approved list (like he had done once before with Cleveland). Why would you take that risk? What's the upside? For a potential pick swap years down the road? For a late 20's 1st round pick instead of an early/mid 30's 2nd round pick? What if the 1st round pick you so desperately wish they'd have gotten also came with an albatross contract? The Knicks could only deal with teams that Melo approved, and then had to make the money match. That's an incredibly limited universe of options.
RE: RE: RE: RE: And when I say the right to swap, I mean a few years down the road. Â
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
Who's talking about holding onto him until the deadline? (I keep having to respond to these strawman arguments.) I'm just saying you can't be so frightened by the prospect of him walking through the door at training camp that you trade him for what could easily be nothing but a 2nd round pick 12 months from today. The reports of Melo expanding his list came out yesterday(?) and he was traded 24 hours later. We couldn't have waited for this deal a little while longer? I never for one second thought that the Knicks were getting a haul. However, outside of the prospect of paying Doug McDermott 3-5 times what he's making now, we might end up with zero long term pieces out of trading Melo. That's nothing to get excited about.
Princeton guys. Current smart NBA guys. They wanted Anthony gone so badly they were willing to take nothing back to get rid of him. That's all you need to know about why he was traded as soon as they didn't have to take bad contracts back.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: And when I say the right to swap, I mean a few years down the road. Â
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
Who's talking about holding onto him until the deadline? (I keep having to respond to these strawman arguments.) I'm just saying you can't be so frightened by the prospect of him walking through the door at training camp that you trade him for what could easily be nothing but a 2nd round pick 12 months from today. The reports of Melo expanding his list came out yesterday(?) and he was traded 24 hours later. We couldn't have waited for this deal a little while longer? I never for one second thought that the Knicks were getting a haul. However, outside of the prospect of paying Doug McDermott 3-5 times what he's making now, we might end up with zero long term pieces out of trading Melo. That's nothing to get excited about.
You seem to ignore ALOT of the posts that counter yours. Lantern and McDermott are tradeable assets that could net more picks. Forcfucks sake man. A mid 20's pick means that much to you that you're completely blind to everything else? Damn man
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: And when I say the right to swap, I mean a few years down the road. Â
You seem to ignore ALOT of the posts that counter yours. Lantern and McDermott are tradeable assets that could net more picks. Forcfucks sake man. A mid 20's pick means that much to you that you're completely blind to everything else? Damn man
So we can't trade Melo for anything, but we'll trade 2 guys (1 who will opt out and another who will get 3-5 times more expensive) for more picks?
You seem to ignore ALOT of the posts that counter yours. Lantern and McDermott are tradeable assets that could net more picks. Forcfucks sake man. A mid 20's pick means that much to you that you're completely blind to everything else? Damn man
So we can't trade Melo for anything, but we'll trade 2 guys (1 who will opt out and another who will get 3-5 times more expensive) for more picks?
They don't have no trade clauses. And here's a bit of a hint for you - it's not uncommon for contenders to add reinforcements at the deadline without concern for whether those players will be on the roster beyond that season. You just have a misunderstood view of the NBA trade market.
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
Who's talking about holding onto him until the deadline? (I keep having to respond to these strawman arguments.) I'm just saying you can't be so frightened by the prospect of him walking through the door at training camp that you trade him for what could easily be nothing but a 2nd round pick 12 months from today. The reports of Melo expanding his list came out yesterday(?) and he was traded 24 hours later. We couldn't have waited for this deal a little while longer? I never for one second thought that the Knicks were getting a haul. However, outside of the prospect of paying Doug McDermott 3-5 times what he's making now, we might end up with zero long term pieces out of trading Melo. That's nothing to get excited about.
You do realize that Melo still hadn't waived his NTC, right? He expanded his list but it's not like that was a formal process where that list became an amendment to his contract. How do you know that he didn't tell the Knicks that he would expand his list but it was conditional on him being before the start of camp on Monday?
The other bit of news that had come out yesterday was that Melo was pushing the Knicks hard to get a deal done before the start of camp - do you really think Melo just expanded his list without some sort of hammer?
You are completely blind to the fact that Melo making 28 million has absolutely no value. There is no need to bring him to training camp. This is the best they were going to get, Cleveland offered Shump and Frye, Houston wouldn't even trade Gordon and ariza. He was not going to go to Portland. So that's it no other competing team has interest or space to take him. Who cares if Knicks have kanter or Mcdermont on the roster in 2 years. This trade all but guarantees a top 5 pick next rather than a pick 8-12. If we end up getting a top 3 pick we are talking about a true franchise player added to our young nucleus. Kanter hopefully opts out after this year and Mcdermont gets traded at some point for a second rounder or you let him walk. If you can trade lee and Thomas during the season, you have
Porzingis
Hernangomez
Frenchy
2018 lottery pick
2018 early second round pick
Dotson
This is a good young core to build off of. 2018-2019 season should be better but prob still a late lottery team. Then 2020 you have tons of cap space with young improving team that should be able to attract free agwnts.
The "aging player" argument has always really annoyed me. Â
Not that it's necessarily wrong, but it only seems to apply to Melo.
Last time I checked, Chris Paul isn't exactly a spring chicken, makes a shit ton of money, was also a disgruntled player that foruhis way off a team, and has his own injury concerns. And he netted a fucking haul AND a first round pick.
Now, I'm fine with this trade (if nothing more than I'm just sick of seeing emo-Melo on this team any longer). And I understand that the return that teams get for players is affected by so many variables. And stop using PH as an example why teams don't give up firsts anymore. IND had a MUCH better deal offered but didn't pull the trigger. Then they eventually went forward with that garbage trade the PG.
I don't know if it is a NY bias, an inept NY front office, or the total botch job they did on the Melo situation...but I'm so sick of the valueless, aging star shit that only seems to apply to Melo. I can almost guarantee that Melo will be damn good when playing on a team that isn't the poster child for dysfunction.
Not that it's necessarily wrong, but it only seems to apply to Melo.
Last time I checked, Chris Paul isn't exactly a spring chicken, makes a shit ton of money, was also a disgruntled player that foruhis way off a team, and has his own injury concerns. And he netted a fucking haul AND a first round pick.
Now, I'm fine with this trade (if nothing more than I'm just sick of seeing emo-Melo on this team any longer). And I understand that the return that teams get for players is affected by so many variables. And stop using PH as an example why teams don't give up firsts anymore. IND had a MUCH better deal offered but didn't pull the trigger. Then they eventually went forward with that garbage trade the PG.
I don't know if it is a NY bias, an inept NY front office, or the total botch job they did on the Melo situation...but I'm so sick of the valueless, aging star shit that only seems to apply to Melo. I can almost guarantee that Melo will be damn good when playing on a team that isn't the poster child for dysfunction.
Chris Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>Melo. Absolutely dreadful comparison.
I don't disagree that CP is better than Melo. I don't think that Â
twenty ">"s was necessary or even accurate but point taken. But put CP on the Knicks and he'd probably look like a worse player also.
Plus, the disparity in returns for each player was pretty drastic. However, point guard is a premium position and there was a team that felt they were a player away. Like I said, timing is everything. All it takes is one team. A lot of variables need to come together.
Take away the NTC and the Phil botch-job, and Melo should have netted a lot more. That killed us.
You are completely blind to the fact that Melo making 28 million has absolutely no value. There is no need to bring him to training camp. This is the best they were going to get, Cleveland offered Shump and Frye, Houston wouldn't even trade Gordon and ariza. He was not going to go to Portland. So that's it no other competing team has interest or space to take him. Who cares if Knicks have kanter or Mcdermont on the roster in 2 years. This trade all but guarantees a top 5 pick next rather than a pick 8-12. If we end up getting a top 3 pick we are talking about a true franchise player added to our young nucleus. Kanter hopefully opts out after this year and Mcdermont gets traded at some point for a second rounder or you let him walk. If you can trade lee and Thomas during the season, you have
Some of you are equating "don't be afraid of Melo showing up for camp" with "if we wait, we'll get 10 first round picks for him". I'm not blind about Melo's value. I just wanted a first round pick, regardless of where it was. (A first round pick is still better than Chicago's 2nd rounder, even if there's not a lot of difference in the spots.) Some seem to be arguing he has no value while others are saying he does have value because Kanter and McDermott will at the very least be tradeable assets. I have doubts about their attractiveness as deadline trading chips, especially if their value is in any way dependent on how they look with a shit Knicks team.
I'm not even arguing this isn't the best trade they could make. I'm arguing that they could've waited a little while to make it unless I'm unaware of a list of players who've blown their knees out on the first day of training camp. Who knows... maybe the deals were already agreed to and were simply awaiting Melo's expansion of his list. For me, these 2 players (especially with their contract situations) are nothing to get excited about now or as potential chips.
BTW, I was fairly confident the Knicks were going to be GOD-awful even if Melo somehow stuck around.
How do you know this? How do you know he wouldn't decline even more or worse yet, injure himself? The only guarantee that keeping Melo on the roster would provide is more meaningless wins and lower draft position. Period. Melos trade stock was very, very unlikely to rise at this stage of his career.
Best to clear that atmosphere out in off-season, and get what you can get.
Quote:
getting a low round pick in the first round really makes a difference.
Are Kanter or McDermott guaranteed to be on the roster in 2 years? If the answer is no, then what did you just trade Melo for? Even a very low first has value for a rebuilding franchise.
The only guy connected to the Melo trade talks who was guaranteed to be on the roster in two years was Ryan Anderson. Would that have been a positive? It seems like you think guaranteeing someone will be on the roster in two years is a good thing. Melo also wouldn't have been on the roster in two years.
I don't think people understood what Melo's actual trade value was - this was a pretty good trade for the Knicks compared to the alternatives.
But lets imagine for a second that wasn't the case and Houston, Cleveland, and OKC were all willing to deal for him then. You risk Melo getting hurt, showing more signs of declining as a player and a lost half seasons of KP's development being stunted, not to mention some extra wins that can be the difference between a top 3 and 6-8th pick. And for what? At most, they'd get late 1st instead of Chicago's second.
How is the risk/reward profile there even remotely the smart play? If any of those things happen either it's Anderson or nothing or he opts in because he wouldn't be sniffing anywhere close to ~$26M a year in the open market. That would be incredibly stupid for a pick that will be at most 8 spots higher than the one they got in this deal.
And they aren't just getting a second round pick. They are getting good shot at a substantially higher first round pick than of Melo stayed. And, as Phil noted, there could be another trae or two coming. A talented young, cheap big like Hernangomez has considerable trade value. The question is when. Remember that Billy was first-team all-rookie. And he's 23 and still in the very early part of his growth.
Assuming Kantor takes that slot, Billy could be worth a lot more at some point than a high-salary, much older Melo with a no-trade clause was.
Also, now was the time to trade Melo, for so many reasons. Waiting longer would have made very little sense IMO.
PF- Kristaps Porzingis, Kyle O’Quinn
SF- Doug McDermott, Lance Thomas, Michael Beasley, Mindaugus Kuzminskas, Nigel Hayes (R)
SG- Tim Hardaway Jr., Courtney Lee, Ron Baker, Damyean Dotson (R), Jamel Artis (R), Xavier Rathan-Mayes (R)
PG- Ramon Sessions, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina (R), Ognen Jaramaz (R)''
------------------------
C- Hernangomez ----- defense at arc /rebounds on O
PF- Kanter -----------offense, rebounds on D
SF= Kuz (or whomever you guys think is best-a ball mover)
SG- Porzingas ----------shoots blocks shots
PG- Frenchy ------------shoots and moves ball
Yeah, but I doubt he's a piece they want to build around. I bet he gets traded.
PF: KP, Beasley, KOQ
SF: Thomas, McDermott, Kuz
SG: THJr, Lee, Dotson
PG: Baker, Frank, Sessions/Jack
Westchester or cut:
Artis
Hayes
Jaramaz
Kornet
XRM
Sessions/Jack
Quote:
With every press release.
Yeah, but I doubt he's a piece they want to build around. I bet he gets traded.
Yeah, that would probably be the thing to do. I don't see the fit here, but maybe he's a nice asset to move.
Who Cares (jack, sessions, Baker)/Frank
THJR/Dotson
Beasley/Kuz/Thomas
KP/Kanter
WH/KOQ/Noah
I would have thought KOQ at PF and Kanter at C?
Also, now was the time to trade Melo, for so many reasons. Waiting longer would have made very little sense IMO.
Neither one of them is under contract beyond this season, so what difference does it make how old they are? If you told me we were getting McDermott at his current price for 2 or 3 more years, that's fine. Instead, he might be making 3 or 4 times his salary for this season going forward. The only way Kanter doesn't opt out is if one of his legs fall off during the season. Who knows how good the first round pick would be, but we do know he would be here with the other young players they have now for the foreseeable future.
its like people who say 'dont play pugh at left tackle because of the money coming into a contract year.'
really? Like, if he was great at it, that would be a bad thing? madness, one would happily pay for it..
Could have. Emphasis on "could"
Holding melo comes with a risk. As long as all the so called realists out there acknowledge that holding melo brings with it various risks...
No one loves this trade but holding melo until the deadline only to see him pull a hammy or struggle means worst case scenario. I'd rather take 25 cents on the dollar now rather than eat the shitty or hurt player later.
And really, what would the knicks get if melo is traded by the deadline?? The knicks exhausted trade proposals for a full year now. What the hell were they getting?
The only guy connected to the Melo trade talks who was guaranteed to be on the roster in two years was Ryan Anderson. Would that have been a positive? It seems like you think guaranteeing someone will be on the roster in two years is a good thing. Melo also wouldn't have been on the roster in two years.
I don't think people understood what Melo's actual trade value was - this was a pretty good trade for the Knicks compared to the alternatives.
If they don't overpay or match McDermott's offer next offseason, they could wind up with nothing for Melo other than a 2nd round pick. That's basically trading him for nothing. That's why you want a first round pick, especially with the players they got back. At least get the right to a swap or a protected first.
There has to be a middle ground between Ryan Anderson and possibly nothing.
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
Quote:
...
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
I don't want Melo on this team at all, but I'm not willing to trade him for what could be nothing relatively soon just to avoid the discomfort of Melo in training camp. You do realize that 12 months from today Kanter and McDermott could be on different teams? The Knicks would've basically ended up trading Melo for a 2nd round pick. How can anyone spin that as a positive?
Quote:
In comment 13611869 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
...
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
I don't want Melo on this team at all, but I'm not willing to trade him for what could be nothing relatively soon just to avoid the discomfort of Melo in training camp. You do realize that 12 months from today Kanter and McDermott could be on different teams? The Knicks would've basically ended up trading Melo for a 2nd round pick. How can anyone spin that as a positive?
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
i thought humorus some mentioned Brklyn pick
Quote:
In comment 13611869 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
...
You continue to completely ignore all of the posts that have mentioned the enormous risk involved in keeping Melo until the deadline. Obviously no teams were offering 1sts, so where does your trade for 1sts come from? I think the Knicks have shopped Melo enough by now to know what was realistic. But I guess you can keep mentioning that they should have gotten a terrible, late 1st round pick just because that's what you wanted.
I don't want Melo on this team at all, but I'm not willing to trade him for what could be nothing relatively soon just to avoid the discomfort of Melo in training camp. You do realize that 12 months from today Kanter and McDermott could be on different teams? The Knicks would've basically ended up trading Melo for a 2nd round pick. How can anyone spin that as a positive?
And 12 months from now, Melo could have opted out as well. And then the Knicks would also be left with nothing. Or no deal could materialize, and the Knicks could be forced to buy him out and they'd be left with less than nothing - they'd have residual cap damage.
The 2nd round pick they got is likely to be only a few slots behind whatever fictional 1st round pick you're wishing they'd have gotten. And the two guys you're so worried about leaving for nothing are still tradable assets (both with value, neither with NTCs), so the Knicks still have an opportunity to further convert this return into future value.
You misunderstood Melo's trade value and are upset with the trade as a result. That's fine. But at some point you have to realize that there weren't any suitors banging down the door, and you can't ignore the fact that at any time Melo could have reneged on his approved list (like he had done once before with Cleveland). Why would you take that risk? What's the upside? For a potential pick swap years down the road? For a late 20's 1st round pick instead of an early/mid 30's 2nd round pick? What if the 1st round pick you so desperately wish they'd have gotten also came with an albatross contract? The Knicks could only deal with teams that Melo approved, and then had to make the money match. That's an incredibly limited universe of options.
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
Who's talking about holding onto him until the deadline? (I keep having to respond to these strawman arguments.) I'm just saying you can't be so frightened by the prospect of him walking through the door at training camp that you trade him for what could easily be nothing but a 2nd round pick 12 months from today. The reports of Melo expanding his list came out yesterday(?) and he was traded 24 hours later. We couldn't have waited for this deal a little while longer? I never for one second thought that the Knicks were getting a haul. However, outside of the prospect of paying Doug McDermott 3-5 times what he's making now, we might end up with zero long term pieces out of trading Melo. That's nothing to get excited about.
Which would have been even worse for the Knicks
Quote:
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
Who's talking about holding onto him until the deadline? (I keep having to respond to these strawman arguments.) I'm just saying you can't be so frightened by the prospect of him walking through the door at training camp that you trade him for what could easily be nothing but a 2nd round pick 12 months from today. The reports of Melo expanding his list came out yesterday(?) and he was traded 24 hours later. We couldn't have waited for this deal a little while longer? I never for one second thought that the Knicks were getting a haul. However, outside of the prospect of paying Doug McDermott 3-5 times what he's making now, we might end up with zero long term pieces out of trading Melo. That's nothing to get excited about.
You seem to ignore ALOT of the posts that counter yours. Lantern and McDermott are tradeable assets that could net more picks. Forcfucks sake man. A mid 20's pick means that much to you that you're completely blind to everything else? Damn man
You seem to ignore ALOT of the posts that counter yours. Lantern and McDermott are tradeable assets that could net more picks. Forcfucks sake man. A mid 20's pick means that much to you that you're completely blind to everything else? Damn man
So we can't trade Melo for anything, but we'll trade 2 guys (1 who will opt out and another who will get 3-5 times more expensive) for more picks?
Thought they were rebuilding.
Quote:
You seem to ignore ALOT of the posts that counter yours. Lantern and McDermott are tradeable assets that could net more picks. Forcfucks sake man. A mid 20's pick means that much to you that you're completely blind to everything else? Damn man
So we can't trade Melo for anything, but we'll trade 2 guys (1 who will opt out and another who will get 3-5 times more expensive) for more picks?
They don't have no trade clauses. And here's a bit of a hint for you - it's not uncommon for contenders to add reinforcements at the deadline without concern for whether those players will be on the roster beyond that season. You just have a misunderstood view of the NBA trade market.
Thought they were rebuilding.
Chicago didn't do the deal. The Knicks traded with Oklahoma City.
Just to point out the obvious.
Some posters seem to be ignoring that obvious point.
If the are not on this team in 2 years its because their contracts expired and that too comes with a lot of value in the NBA.
Either way the Knicks have some value in the two players. Its not getting "nothing"
Quote:
Chicago do this deal?
Thought they were rebuilding.
Chicago didn't do the deal. The Knicks traded with Oklahoma City.
Duh.
Quote:
Dude... for the 100th time. Holding melo until the deadline comes with a risk. Are you going to ignore this point time and time again or finally address it? Hold melo and he gets hurt. Then what? We're fucked. Hold melo and he struggles due to age and fading abilities. We're fucked again.
It's a risk to hold melo and we don't know if the knicks gain more even if melo plays well these next few months here in NYC.
Move on. He's gone. We all wanted more but we could have done worse. For starters we could have held him watched him get hurt and been saddled with a big contract.
Who's talking about holding onto him until the deadline? (I keep having to respond to these strawman arguments.) I'm just saying you can't be so frightened by the prospect of him walking through the door at training camp that you trade him for what could easily be nothing but a 2nd round pick 12 months from today. The reports of Melo expanding his list came out yesterday(?) and he was traded 24 hours later. We couldn't have waited for this deal a little while longer? I never for one second thought that the Knicks were getting a haul. However, outside of the prospect of paying Doug McDermott 3-5 times what he's making now, we might end up with zero long term pieces out of trading Melo. That's nothing to get excited about.
You do realize that Melo still hadn't waived his NTC, right? He expanded his list but it's not like that was a formal process where that list became an amendment to his contract. How do you know that he didn't tell the Knicks that he would expand his list but it was conditional on him being before the start of camp on Monday?
The other bit of news that had come out yesterday was that Melo was pushing the Knicks hard to get a deal done before the start of camp - do you really think Melo just expanded his list without some sort of hammer?
Porzingis
Hernangomez
Frenchy
2018 lottery pick
2018 early second round pick
Dotson
This is a good young core to build off of. 2018-2019 season should be better but prob still a late lottery team. Then 2020 you have tons of cap space with young improving team that should be able to attract free agwnts.
Last time I checked, Chris Paul isn't exactly a spring chicken, makes a shit ton of money, was also a disgruntled player that foruhis way off a team, and has his own injury concerns. And he netted a fucking haul AND a first round pick.
Now, I'm fine with this trade (if nothing more than I'm just sick of seeing emo-Melo on this team any longer). And I understand that the return that teams get for players is affected by so many variables. And stop using PH as an example why teams don't give up firsts anymore. IND had a MUCH better deal offered but didn't pull the trigger. Then they eventually went forward with that garbage trade the PG.
I don't know if it is a NY bias, an inept NY front office, or the total botch job they did on the Melo situation...but I'm so sick of the valueless, aging star shit that only seems to apply to Melo. I can almost guarantee that Melo will be damn good when playing on a team that isn't the poster child for dysfunction.
Last time I checked, Chris Paul isn't exactly a spring chicken, makes a shit ton of money, was also a disgruntled player that foruhis way off a team, and has his own injury concerns. And he netted a fucking haul AND a first round pick.
Now, I'm fine with this trade (if nothing more than I'm just sick of seeing emo-Melo on this team any longer). And I understand that the return that teams get for players is affected by so many variables. And stop using PH as an example why teams don't give up firsts anymore. IND had a MUCH better deal offered but didn't pull the trigger. Then they eventually went forward with that garbage trade the PG.
I don't know if it is a NY bias, an inept NY front office, or the total botch job they did on the Melo situation...but I'm so sick of the valueless, aging star shit that only seems to apply to Melo. I can almost guarantee that Melo will be damn good when playing on a team that isn't the poster child for dysfunction.
Chris Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>Melo. Absolutely dreadful comparison.
Plus, the disparity in returns for each player was pretty drastic. However, point guard is a premium position and there was a team that felt they were a player away. Like I said, timing is everything. All it takes is one team. A lot of variables need to come together.
Take away the NTC and the Phil botch-job, and Melo should have netted a lot more. That killed us.
Some of you are equating "don't be afraid of Melo showing up for camp" with "if we wait, we'll get 10 first round picks for him". I'm not blind about Melo's value. I just wanted a first round pick, regardless of where it was. (A first round pick is still better than Chicago's 2nd rounder, even if there's not a lot of difference in the spots.) Some seem to be arguing he has no value while others are saying he does have value because Kanter and McDermott will at the very least be tradeable assets. I have doubts about their attractiveness as deadline trading chips, especially if their value is in any way dependent on how they look with a shit Knicks team.
I'm not even arguing this isn't the best trade they could make. I'm arguing that they could've waited a little while to make it unless I'm unaware of a list of players who've blown their knees out on the first day of training camp. Who knows... maybe the deals were already agreed to and were simply awaiting Melo's expansion of his list. For me, these 2 players (especially with their contract situations) are nothing to get excited about now or as potential chips.
BTW, I was fairly confident the Knicks were going to be GOD-awful even if Melo somehow stuck around.