Lots of chatter on BBI lately about how the Giants cannot allow one of these "franchise QBs" to slip away with their first pick in the 2018 draft. I read those things and after a few of them, I'm glossing now.
It's not so important what BBI comments implore the team to do or face sudden doom. It's more about what appears to be the direction. And that seems to be Eli Manning playing this year, next and (who knows) maybe? another?
First thing this team MUST do is get the offensive line issue remedied, so I really hope, all things being equal between now and April 26-28 weekend, that the pick - however high it may be - is a very good O-lineman. And from what I have been reading yesterday and some more today, I hope it's a guy like Connor Williams, Texas. Every write-up since last year says he has the goods and is a future solid NFL lineman.
Also, sign one very good NFL veteran FA lineman. Then you have the No. 1 pick/prospect, you have your new FA acquisition - say (guard) Trai Turner of the Panthers, who is a Pro Bowler and 24 years old. He'll need a big payday, but if Eli will have another solid year or two, worth it.
See what Pugh wants. Let Richburg walk and develop Jones as your center.
You starting O-line for 2018 - left to right:
LT - Williams
LG - Turner
C - Jones
RG - Pugh
RT - Flowers
Wheeler is a key backup, and your RT is Flowers cannot cut it.
Hart remains as a backup, and maybe you keep Jerry around for that last year as vet depth. What happens with Fluker for next season would largely depend on what he does this season - basically playing for another contract.
Now, you have a high second-round pick to spend on a stud linebacker.
It would be silly of you had a crystal ball and call say with certainty that either of those two players are going to be better than Webb.
Taking a QB that high removed a lot of hope for a more immediate O-line remedy. The Giants are not going to be able to sign TWO solid vet FAs, nor will they want to, imo.
I wouldn't worry about them though. The Giants will win just enough games to get a mid first round pick and probably take a CB.
Jones seems no worse than Richburg, Flowers isn't going anywhere so he should play a part, maybe the right side should be Flowers at RG and Pugh at RT? Jones takes over Center draft a LT high ( as you suggest Williams ) and find a free agent LG.
Sure. But it's a gamble. More doesn't mean better than the highest-ranked O-line prospects.
Jones seems no worse than Richburg, Flowers isn't going anywhere so he should play a part, maybe the right side should be Flowers at RG and Pugh at RT? Jones takes over Center draft a LT high ( as you suggest Williams ) and find a free agent LG.
HA!
So, EXACTLY as I posted. lol
He's a unique and great enough talent that he's the rare back worth taking that high. He'd also still likely produce behind a less than good OL.
if not then We may need to draft a QB if we are high enough pick. And try and trade Webb to another team for a pick.
If he is then
Both Sy and Dave Te have voiced concerns over some of the Ot's. McGlinchy looks to be an NFL bust. I suggest use FA to get a LT Nate Solder. We resign Pugh and tag Richburg. We then use the fist pick on a stud rb like Barkley or Love.
We then have a good offense.
But for what he will cost the cap, Eli is going nowhere, next year.
I recall Dallas taking Steve Walsh when they already had Aikman, and then trading him for the Saints' No. 1 and No. 3 choices in 1991 and a No. 2 pick in 1992.(which could be upgraded to a No. 1 if Walsh performed well for the Saints). Franchise QBs are worth a fortune.
Don't forget ... the Giants can sign more than just one FA heading into next season. And I'm not counting Jones, of they let Richburg walk and Jones is the guy penciled in at C.
I get it that Eli is the guy, but if it's a business, then it should be run as such. Eli and we, the fans of him, need to see what the purpose of such a decision would be.
Don't forget ... the Giants can sign more than just one FA heading into next season. And I'm not counting Jones, of they let Richburg walk and Jones is the guy penciled in at C.
Saquon Barkley is potentially an all time talent and, let's be real, we have scrubs at RB. There's no great T at the top of this draft that can compare. There's no RB or even ST player in FA that will have his value.
So, yes, I would want them to take the posibly clear BPA that is conveniently also at a position of need instead of forcing a pick.
I see no reason why a young QB couldn't sit behind Eli for two years, learn, and hopefully the team would be pretty stable at a minimum by the time he were to take over.
Eli is no spring chicken, he's got two years left on his contract that put him at 38. That's an advanced age - even though he looks to hardly have aged IMO.
Aaron Rodgers sat behind Favre. Wentz would have sat at least a year had the Vikings not panicked and offered a trade. Goff sat to start, and only got in because their starter blew. Same with Eli, when Warner just went South over night.
Quenton Nelson. Great player.
Or passing over a franchise elite #1 prospect at QB because we have Davis Webb, a guy we took in the 3rd round who we think is possibly the future but needs developmental work?
I get it that Eli is the guy, but if it's a business, then it should be run as such. Eli and we, the fans of him, need to see what the purpose of such a decision would be.
Totally disagree........maybe you get him into games where Eli normally wouldn't come out, as Eli rarely ever comes out.
If you don't draft a QB this year, Webb plays extensively next pre-season and also gets to hang out all offseason with the team.
Because the front office was wrong about that, we will need to re-evaluate everything going into the draft. That includes taking a QB in the top 10 if our pick falls there.
Exactly. Folks here think Webb is going to step right in and be the franchise. He was a 3rd round pick. He looks the part, but does not have the qualities of a franchise QB yet. He needs time. Passing over someone like Rosen (elite mechanics and for lack of a better words, balls) or Darnold (has everything you look for in a franchise QB) would be a huge mistake.
go for broke and fix the OL
What is the FA OT landscape going into 2018?
Or passing over a franchise elite #1 prospect at QB because we have Davis Webb, a guy we took in the 3rd round who we think is possibly the future but needs developmental work?
Not sure if I understand the logic of making a future pick based on a past pick.
If the future pick grades out to be better, with a much higher ceiling at the most important position on the field, you go for it.
Nothing wrong with having two prospects. There are always injuries, and even trade possibilities.
If you simply want to avoid admitting you made a mistake, then sure.
But you can't draft that way.
Mariota - meh
Winston - eh
Goff - ?
Wentz - ok
Luck - ? what one maybe two good years
Ryan - ok yes
I don't see that it is necessary to take a QB that high.
Mariota - meh
Winston - eh
Goff - ?
Wentz - ok
Luck - ? what one maybe two good years
Ryan - ok yes
I don't see that it is necessary to take a QB that high.
Why is your criteria tearing it up? All those QBs are young (take Luck and Ryan out - they are vets) and have a ton of promise to build around.
Are you serious about Luck? He's a stud who was much more than that, and now he's injured.
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what's more silly...you saying we HAVE to take OL if we get a top 10 pick?...
Or passing over a franchise elite #1 prospect at QB because we have Davis Webb, a guy we took in the 3rd round who we think is possibly the future but needs developmental work?
Not sure if I understand the logic of making a future pick based on a past pick.
If the future pick grades out to be better, with a much higher ceiling at the most important position on the field, you go for it.
Nothing wrong with having two prospects. There are always injuries, and even trade possibilities.
If you simply want to avoid admitting you made a mistake, then sure.
But you can't draft that way.
I guess it's pretty simple for me. If you believe you have a guy to fill a need at one position, an important one, then you pick other important positions.
That's why I like playing Webb more at the end of a season (if it's indeed lost by games 15-17), rather than NEXT pre-season. You get to see Webb and how he reacts to game competition. Granted, it's just an indicator. But it's information.
My apologies then. I looked at a site listing 2018 "top FA" options. Turner was listed.
-If we're in the top 10, and there's another top 10 team that wants a QB and is willing to trade up, do it.
-Get Barkley
-Next pick, best OL available
-Some OL in free agency
I think JR needs to go as well, it's about time for that.
I think JR needs to go as well, it's about time for that.
Right. Did you read the original post?
est1986 : 1:18 pm : link : reply
Unless Eli totally falters Webb is a wasted pick.. Reese will be happy if he never plays which IMO makes sense but is nuts to waste such a valuable pick... One pick before Webb was Kareem fucking Hunt...
We could have taken Cam Robinson in the first moved up in the
third with the extra pick and nabbed Hunt or stayed pat and
took Foreman . This draft made Zero sense .
We would have been fine with Adams Lacosse and Ellison .
I would have even added Dawkins in there in the 2nd .
I'm also not buying the, "this is a weak OL class" bullshit. Said the same shit this year and several of the highly touted prospects (Ramcyk, Robinson, etc) have looked good this year.
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QB who is tearing it up.
Mariota - meh
Winston - eh
Goff - ?
Wentz - ok
Luck - ? what one maybe two good years
Ryan - ok yes
I don't see that it is necessary to take a QB that high.
Why is your criteria tearing it up? All those QBs are young (take Luck and Ryan out - they are vets) and have a ton of promise to build around.
Are you serious about Luck? He's a stud who was much more than that, and now he's injured.
He's right, and Luck had more than one, two good years as well. He had rotator cuff surgery, so that takes time now.
I said they should have kept him on PUP until after week 6,
I didn't see him playing for awhile, that was strange to me.
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is a free agent, so that has to taken into account, and so is Richburg. I think the Giants will try and keep one, but not both, still have to fix this line moving forward, it is imperative at this point!
I think JR needs to go as well, it's about time for that.
Right. Did you read the original post?
Missed that one line of your post, oops, my bad.
If they don't feel there is a franchise quarterback in their range, then go best player available. If I'm the giants I am heavily scouting offensive linemen coming into the draft as well as potential free agents.
As far as the offensive line goes, I would bring in an older veteran on a one or two year contract. The line lacks veteran leadership and accountability. Jahri Evans would be best suited for this role. Draft a high offensive lineman (1st or 2nd round) and start the rebuild. I would also try to bring Pugh back if at a reasonable contract.
Which is why you take a top blue-chipper ... sign a FA, maybe a couple? And you re-sign Jones and Pugh.
We saw a much different line Sunday at Tampa than we did the first couple weeks and things have been a notch better. The addition of Gallman is a big deal because now you have a guy attacking small openings that have a chance to develop on a fraction of a second, versus a guy dancing and picking his way behind a cast of characters that are not able to hold their blocks, let alone open lanes.
I'm glad BBI isn't running our draft.
AND still get a solid line prospect in the 1st or 2nd round. It's a trade-off. Either/or.
This notion that having an amazing OL wins you a title is garbage. Where has that gotten the Cowboys?
You need a franchise QB, coaching, and a stout defense. Put the pieces together outside of that.
AND still get a solid line prospect in the 1st or 2nd round. It's a trade-off. Either/or.
Oh, then I must be completely off about the 2004 draft, because the giants traded up to get Eli Manning and then drafted Chris Snee in the 2nd round. My mistake, must have been on Madden or something.
If there is a conviction that a quarterback available is a franchise quarterback, like Accorsi had about Eli, then that quarterback trumps everything else. This league is all about the quarterbacks.
Look what happened with Flowers. We took him 9th, partly because of our need for a LT. That was obviously a bad move. Taking OL in round 1 just because will not solve the issues this team is facing.
In fact, this season alone, we couldn't get a stop on defense and had incredibly poor special teams disasters. That's part of the issue too. Not just OL. OL has been competent the past two games.
This notion that having an amazing OL wins you a title is garbage. Where has that gotten the Cowboys?
You need a franchise QB, coaching, and a stout defense. Put the pieces together outside of that.
The O-line doesn't have to be GREAT, and with my upgrades, it wouldn't be. It might be decent.
Hey, if the Giants ended up getting a slick RB prospect like Barkley, I'd put on my optimism hat like the rest in that camp but I'd be extremely concerned if the O-line was just shuffled a bit with maybe one add somewhere. It would be downright depressing.
And if the Giants got a QB with their first pick? I'd have to take a step back and just wait and see. I would not be optimist for how things might go the next season or two, maybe more. Drafting a QB, to me, would be signalling a white flag for the rest of Eli's career in New York, and for me, that would be depressing.
Look what happened with Flowers. We took him 9th, partly because of our need for a LT. That was obviously a bad move. Taking OL in round 1 just because will not solve the issues this team is facing.
In fact, this season alone, we couldn't get a stop on defense and had incredibly poor special teams disasters. That's part of the issue too. Not just OL. OL has been competent the past two games.
But if Flowers (who will still be only 24 years old all of NEXT season) turns out to be a serviceable lineman on the right side, going forward, and new and old pieces gel in a new configuration, is that STILL a wasted 9th pick if the Giants can get Eli a third ring?
I say no.
The best OL in Giants recent memory included cast offs, late rounders and undrafted players. Think about that for a second.
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For more high picks
Sure. But it's a gamble. More doesn't mean better than the highest-ranked O-line prospects.
Problem is, we SUCK at drafting OLmen.
We have to get a new GM, along with the extra 1st/2nd round picks.
So, my take would be to trade down and stockpile picks, at least 1 of which to be spent on an OL. I would also spend in FA on a top OL, not another journeyman full of flaws.
If this isn't the route they want to take, the other alternative is to then consider trading Eli for picks, if the market bears a good haul.
He might. But he's playing well right now. I don't think anyone here would argue that point.
Depressing because it would signal to me, in a way, that the O-line was not the more immediate top priority.
See, I am not willing to jump into the camp that says Webb is a wasted pick ... or even that he can't be a solid quarterback.
I feel back for ANY quarterback following Eli. Big shoes to fill. And I have the perspective of a fan being able to go back to the early 1970s to recall all the quarterbacks who were not very good, and who were OK, but that was it.
What if Webb isn't what we now have to call a "franchise quarterback?" What if he's a very solid one who can win us some games, but who can also be part of the woodwork, on some level, while a defense might emerge as the star ... or a RB ... or hey! we have a pretty spectacular WR and another emerging one, not to mention a really exciting TE/WR option going forward.
So, depressing (not debilitating ... more deflating) if another QB is taken because ... hey fans, hang in their for another 3, 4 maybe 5 years before we have something really good for you ... maybe.
It'd be malpractice to not put out that same OL from the Tampa game this week. Let's keep it going and see what happens.
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Fluker just yet, he played well against the Bucs, and the running game showed a little life in part because of him.
It'd be malpractice to not put out that same OL from the Tampa game this week. Let's keep it going and see what happens.
Rebuild
Unfortunately Mac fucked up by not getting Webb reps in camp or pre-season games. Instead he wasted valuable practice time with some dumb ass QB competition between 2 loser QBs. It was just moronic.
I recall Dallas taking Steve Walsh when they already had Aikman, and then trading him for the Saints' No. 1 and No. 3 choices in 1991 and a No. 2 pick in 1992.(which could be upgraded to a No. 1 if Walsh performed well for the Saints). Franchise QBs are worth a fortune.
Except that Walsh was nowhere near a franchise QB. The Saints were taken to the cleaners on that deal.
How many teams can or will offer up picks for what looks like our likely top 5-10 spot? SF and their 100 picks? Cleveland and their 200 picks(possibly because they look like a FQB could get them back in the playoff game[even at 0-4])? And who is a player away that a top pick is a surefire starter/major contributor right away?
And, what is the heir apparent going to stand behind if the Giants keep most of this ragtag OL in 3 years?
If they draft the mobile QB they are building for a Mc coached team; if an immobile one either Mc is stuck with it or they need to get a very good OL put together in front of the kid. And given the evaluation metrics of our current GM, who I do not think they dump now or the short range future, I have little confidence in their ability to put a good OL in front of their young QB.
And, what will be that QBs weapons? Unless this mess turns around soon and '18 shows LOTS of promise OBJ will move on, and are SS EE Adams /Ellison right for our current or future coach?
While hopeful I am obviously NOT optimistic about our team going forward the next 5 years, with the current leadership.
2 - G
2 - DT
3 - Center
3- Guard
4 - DB
4- DB
etc
possibly a trade garners you even more than this, a 2019 pick perhaps, the board values are very high for say, a 7th rounder and up
Line: Pugh/high 2nd rounder/3rd rounder\3rd rounder\Flowers
DT Rotation of 4: 2nd rounder/Snacks/Tomlinson/Bromley
(DRC/Apple/Jackrabbit/4th rounder) (Thomas, adams, Collins, 4th rounder)
DTs and Guards, Centers must be well above 320lbs.
Historically, these types of guys have not worked out in the NFL. He was a value pick.
The fact that he's here should have no bearing on what we do going forward. It can't.
To the point that we shouldnt use another high pick on a QB crowd - QB it far too important a position to pass on blue chips, because we may not have another opportunity to pick this high again in a class so good. Besides, would anyone have a problem picking an OL in the first if we spent a 3rd round pick on OL last year? Of course not.
And if both guys turn out to be the goods, that's an enviable position to be in because then you deal one for a kings ransom.
If that QB isn't there, then go down the list of what they tend to prioritize with some need sprinkled in if they're trying to load up for one last run with Eli : DE, LT, WR if there's a chance OB is moved at some point.
Trading down makes sense in a vacuum but really tough to predict so far in advance.
A lot of moving parts.
Assuming John Jerry grows a sack...
Assuming Ereck Flowers takes his vitamins this offseason and becomes athletic...
Assuming JPP regrow can regrow three fingers...
Assuming the Maras can find an offseason tutor for Slick to teach him how to build a big boy NFL caliber playbook...
Assuming we can find a FS who knows where the fuck he's supposed to be on a given play...
Seems like we're all set. SB '2019 here we come.