This organization cannot evaluate collegiate OT talent

Video at 11.

Nobody is expecting to get a starter, or even a solid backup there. Saying they drafted duds in those rounds is meaningless because players at all positions in those rounds are usually duds.

Beatty gets full credit. He was a legitimate starting LT who had earned a 2nd contract here.

Is Flowers a grave disappointment if up to this point in his career he was allowed to grow into the RT position as was planned?

Throw in Pugh and Richburg and you had built 4/5 of your o-line through the draft.

Wilson rd 1 medical bust.
Perkins rd 5 when Howard was there.

But this OL sucks. It was better when they built it through FA.

I agree with the premise that there is a deficiency in the scouting department regarding OLs. Combine that with the GM's philosophy of not really wanting to spend early picks on linemen with "high floors" but only moderate ceilings, and you get what they have now. One guy out of 5 (Pugh) who's maybe better than average.

The buck stops with Reese, but I think it's time to re evaluate the scouts who are grading the OLs. There is a disconnect between what the scouts see, and how the coaches see these guys. Guys drafted to be OTs turn out to be OGs and vice versa.

Why's he gone?

In comment 13630379 superspynyg said:

Quote:

Wilson rd 1 medical bust. Perkins rd 5 when Howard was there.

I'm in favor of canning Reese, but this is unfair. There were these two guys named Jacobs and Bradshaw you might remember.

We had an all pro OL?

And you can't just skip over Pugh

In comment 13630404 PatersonPlank said:

Quote:

And you can't just skip over Pugh

Agreed, but just not godawful and nowhere near good.

Quote:

Reese's staff cant evaluate RB talent either superspynyg : 10:01 am : link : reply Wilson rd 1 medical bust.

Reese should have been fired the day he demanded Wilson have a career ending injury.

The problems with developing NFL caliber OTs league wide has been well documented. A lot fewer guys are coming out already having a good base of skills for the NFL, due to the prevalence of the spread offense in college now

Some of the picks you cite (Jeff Hatch - lulz) were just bad, but others are talented guys who we haven’t developed well enough.

In comment 13630402 spike said:

Quote:

We had an all pro OL?

Wasn't Snee a consistent Pro-Bowler. I'm not sure if he ever was All-Pro, but he's the last of the great Giants linemen IMO. O'Hara was Ok, Diehl, Seubert and McKenzie were gamers.

Beatty was a successful pick, considering where he was taken. Really, what you're down to is Flowers. While that pick looks terrible right now, it's also symptomatic of a League-wide problem evaluating OL talent as the college game shifts en masse to spread offenses and fewer linemen play from a three-point stance with techniques or responsibilities that map to pro ball.

I'm not excusing the Giants' track record, which stinks. Just trying to keep it in context. Maybe the Rams had the right idea in 2015. A year after whiffing on Robinson with the second pick, they drafted a truckload of linemen, including the current right side of their line.

In comment 13630371 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

Nobody is expecting to get a starter, or even a solid backup there. Saying they drafted duds in those rounds is meaningless because players at all positions in those rounds are usually duds.

True, but you'd think you could get a reasonable hit on a 2nd 3rd or 4th rounder, at least at RT. I'm only talking OT's not guards/Center.
Look at NFC counterparts Washington with Moses (3rd rnd), Atlanta with Schraeder (undrafted FA) and Carolina Williams (4th) and Remmers (undrafted FA currently with Vikes).

Hey, maybe we'll hit with Wheeler next season.

But then again, maybe it's Giants system. I see Schwartz is starting in KC and Newhouse in Oakland.

you can say if RB's are good or not because we've done a terrible job with the OL. How is any RB supposed to get a lot of yards behind this group?

If you can't get THAT right, I'm not sure you should be criticizing the Giants for drafting the wrong linemen.

the real Schwartz pops up on Charlotte TV as their football analyst!

and a philosophy that tends to not look at OT early, or they panic and force picks on players they fell in love with during scouting season. To be fair, other teams were reportedly right behind us to draft Pugh and Flowers, though they looked like reaches to me at the time.

FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

The real Schwartz pops up on Charlotte TV as their football analyst!

I bet he's pretty good. Excellent cook too, by all accounts. And for the twenty or so games that he was fully healthy during his seven+ year career, Geoff S. was a damn solid lineman.

Unfortunately, he and Beatty appear to have been "money" players, in the absolute worst sense.

In comment 13630404 PatersonPlank said:

Quote:

And you can't just skip over Pugh

Much better? They can't run the ball at all and the passes are coming out at around 2s. That's not better performance, that's working around his limitations.

With John Jerry at LG, Ereck Flowers is not the biggest problem on the left side of the line.

I do think Flowers has improved, though the baseline is admittedly low and the quick passes make any sort of assessment difficult.

When was the last time we had a FA signing pan out on the OL?

In comment 13630436 JonC said:

Quote:

and a philosophy that tends to not look at OT early, or they panic and force picks on players they fell in love with during scouting season. To be fair, other teams were reportedly right behind us to draft Pugh and Flowers, though they looked like reaches to me at the time.

but other teams scouts/gm thought Flowers not as a LT. only giants did

Kemechi Osemele was just sitting there this offseason up for grabs - an ascending and now dominant OL. Like a battered and abused woman we elect to bring John Jerry back.

from another thread- (falcons run, run well, lots of play action, 12 and 13 sets, O on fire past few years)

here are some management names from the Falcons
idiotsavant : 1:54 pm : link : reply
Scott Pioli Assistant General Manager
Nick Polk Director, Football Operations
Todd Nielson Football Research and Development
Steven Scarnecchia Assistant to the Head Coach
Joel Collier Director of Pro Personnel
Steve Sabo Director of College Scouting
Phil Emery National Scout
Ruston Webster National Scout
Russ Bolinger National Scout

In comment 13630436 JonC said:

Quote:

and a philosophy that tends to not look at OT early, or they panic and force picks on players they fell in love with during scouting season. To be fair, other teams were reportedly right behind us to draft Pugh and Flowers, though they looked like reaches to me at the time.

My admittedly vague recollection is that the Rams were interested in Flowers, and the Bears wanted Pugh. The Bears selected Long. The Bears also apparently wanted Austin, and settled for Paea.

May not be true.

Chiefs/Falcons are models.

Pats are a whole-istic model in that there are so many aspects to how bellichick runs things in general probably on the team, that its hard to cut and paste ideas.

One gets the idea that BB runs a hell of a practice, for one example. Knows exactly what he wants to do instead of assuming that he can be all things.

I am stuck on a pre-season quote here where basically they said 'the playbook is huge, we can do/run anything, will 'see what sticks'. ' Then, someone here mentioned, we have used an exceedingly small playbook of runs. Short list and an old fashioned one at that.

which, either the entire year is a try-out, or they drank the koolaide, but it such lack of focus (the paraphrase) does not seem to jive with a shorter window for practices generally.

In comment 13630756 micky said:

Quote:

In comment 13630436 JonC said: Quote: and a philosophy that tends to not look at OT early, or they panic and force picks on players they fell in love with during scouting season. To be fair, other teams were reportedly right behind us to draft Pugh and Flowers, though they looked like reaches to me at the time. but other teams scouts/gm thought Flowers not as a LT. only giants did

I wonder if it was the "Giants" or just the one coach who raved to no end about him and his potential.

Kareem was an extraordinary offensive tackle. In 2010 Pro Football Focus ranked Kareem as the best OT in football.He was named the best run blocker in the NFL,and the Giants said McKenzie was the best OL in the NFC.

Over 3 years he was one of the highest rated OT by Pro Football Focus.Kareem is grossly underrated by most Giant fans.He was one of the best run blockers in the NFL,and a very good pass blocker.

Kareem was an overpowering offensive lineman.The Giants have been unable to replace him.

"Progression not Revolution"

(did they mean learning on the job? , did they plan to make 2017 a super long practice period then play to win in 2018?)

One thing, teams that have courage in their convictions, as long as those match todays ball (cowboys, falcons, chiefs), dont need to try to have 6000 page playbooks in preseason, work on what you plan to do.

Problem is, plans dont match personel visa vis run as an afterthought, making OL passive.

Last pre-draft, Canty was talking about the guard/center/guard, so I know I was not the only one.