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The realization from this season that ticks me off most

TexasGmenFan : 10/9/2017 4:04 pm
This really extends a few years and has been touched on by others as well, but with this season over, it truly pisses me off how this franchise essentially burned the final half of Eli Manning's career.

On top of that, the braintrust at top (Reese, McAdoo) have each taken shots at the guy who is frankly the reason they are each employed in their current positions at all. Pathetic.

Eli was coming off his best season in 2011, capped with a ring for a team that basically rode him into the playoffs (a 9-7 division title with a bottom of the league running game and defense) and then relied on his magic and a defense that woke up for 4 weeks to earn said ring. 7 years in, Eli had 2 rings and 2 SB MVPs. It is absolutely inexcusable that since hoisting that trophy, Eli will have played in exactly ONE playoff game in the ensuing 6 seasons.

Eli is not entirely absolved of blame, but look around the NFL and you can count on 2 hands (tops) the number of legitimate franchise QBs in this league. We have been lucky enough to have one of them. We have been lucky enough to not wonder or worry about uncertainty at the position for a decade and a half. Eli has outlasted the flashes in the pan, the next big things...over his career, how many QBs would really rank above or equal to him in the overall comfort/productivity scheme of things? I'd count Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers, Ben.

Yet, the efforts to build around him (as Matt in SGS alluded to in an earlier post or as beautifully written by Barnwell this morning) have been flawed at best. The "weapons" brought in have primarily been stopgaps other than a roll of the dice turning into this team's best draft pick in a decade.

Obviously injuries - especially at WR - play a role, but the complete lack of effort to build an OL or a run-game, the insufficiencies in overall drafting...

It may be fun now to think about who the "next" franchise QB may be, especially given the likelihood that we draft in the top 5, but its shameful that coming off of his best season, his 2nd SB MVP, and really being in the midst of his prime, this franchise couldn't figure out a way to get Eli Manning another legit run at a title.

You counted 5 QBs higher than Eli  
jcn56 : 10/9/2017 4:07 pm : link
yet you fault the Giants for "only" getting 2 SBs out of his tenure, when the only one on that list that had more was Brady and Brees and Rodgers only managed 1?
yup  
rocco8112 : 10/9/2017 4:09 pm : link
I agree. Sucks
RE: You counted 5 QBs higher than Eli  
TexasGmenFan : 10/9/2017 4:10 pm : link
In comment 13639509 jcn56 said:
Quote:
yet you fault the Giants for "only" getting 2 SBs out of his tenure, when the only one on that list that had more was Brady and Brees and Rodgers only managed 1?


not necessarily. those 2 SB's are among the greatest runs this team may ever have. my argument is more that he wasn't even afforded a legit shot to get more. of course, rings matter most at the end, but if you're blessed with being one of the few teams with a franchise QB, you should be a perennial contender given the way the league works now.

that's my argument. 1 playoff game in his final 6 years is something i could never have conceived.
Consider maybe that was also a factor of Eli's play  
jcn56 : 10/9/2017 4:13 pm : link
He's been inconsistent, and as Eli went so did the team.

Doesn't absolve Reese from not putting a better OL around him, but let's not make it sound like we left some rings on the table.

Do you feel the same way about Peyton, who was without question a much better QB? And his second ring was almost in spite of him.
sorry shouldn't say final 6 years  
TexasGmenFan : 10/9/2017 4:13 pm : link
in all likelihood, Eli plays 2018, which actually gives him a nice symmetric first/second 7 seasons.

the idea that the first 7 produced 5 playoff appearances and a 10W season in one of the misses, while the 2nd 7 may end up producing 1 playoff game is pretty damning.
Has anyone noticed how bad BIg Ben is this year  
Bleedblue10 : 10/9/2017 4:13 pm : link
I love Eli and obviously we're worse off at least Pitt can still win games but can you imagine how bad it would be here if Eli was playing as bad as roethlisberger? I'm not oblivious to the fact that he's 36 and declining but BR's play has fallen off a cliff and he could care less. Eli takes so much shit but always handles himself with class and does nothing but give his heart and soul to this team every week. Imagine if he said the things BR said after a shit game? I hate the double standard that's all I'm saying
Has Eli truly been a "franchise qb" these last 7 seasons?  
djm : 10/9/2017 4:13 pm : link
Or just another decent qb that goes along for the ride. Be it a bumpy ride to nowhere or a nice ride to a one and done playoffs?

It's a scary question. Impossible to answer without plenty of debate. All I know is we've sucked for a long time now and save for two halfway decent Offensive seasons in 14 and 15, the offense has been a major reason why we've sucked. The offense hasn't carried anything. The qb hasn't carried anything.

I give up.
RE: Consider maybe that was also a factor of Eli's play  
TexasGmenFan : 10/9/2017 4:16 pm : link
In comment 13639535 jcn56 said:
Quote:
He's been inconsistent, and as Eli went so did the team.

Doesn't absolve Reese from not putting a better OL around him, but let's not make it sound like we left some rings on the table.

Do you feel the same way about Peyton, who was without question a much better QB? And his second ring was almost in spite of him.


absolutely, Eli is not absolved in all of this. i do think it's difficult to tease apart all the moving parts that go into these types of things: i.e. part of his inconsistency could be due to high WR turnover, inability of certain WR's to understand route running (see Randle, R.); but he certainly had some head-scratcher decisions too.

again I can't really argue from a rings standpoint because Eli nabbed 2. that said, Peyton's teams made the playoffs in essentially every season. of course, i know rings matter above all. my argument is that having a franchise QB should equate to contender status in this NFL and we simply were not.

the only rings on the table to me, ironically, came in those first 7 years also (2008, and to a much lesser degree 2010)
My biggest problem is the guys that were largely to blame for  
Devon : 10/9/2017 4:17 pm : link
probably wasting so much of Eli's career are still the ones that are going to draft his replacement this spring and we're supposed to believe they won't blow that too.

The recent past sucked, the present sucks, and there's little reason to realistically believe the future won't because the Giants just don't make the moves they really need to right now. It's Eli's turn to take the fall, and he will, all while Reese, Ross, Chris Mara, etc will just keep on keeping on.
RE: Has Eli truly been a  
TexasGmenFan : 10/9/2017 4:18 pm : link
In comment 13639538 djm said:
Quote:
Or just another decent qb that goes along for the ride. Be it a bumpy ride to nowhere or a nice ride to a one and done playoffs?

It's a scary question. Impossible to answer without plenty of debate. All I know is we've sucked for a long time now and save for two halfway decent Offensive seasons in 14 and 15, the offense has been a major reason why we've sucked. The offense hasn't carried anything. The qb hasn't carried anything.

I give up.


it's a decent argument, but unless one believes Eli fell off a cliff following his absolute best season, then one could say that there was still plenty left in the tank. maybe not with the consistency of a Brady/Rogers, but certainly enough to be a 9-11 W team and earn playoff berths here and there.
Eli has been a great player for the Giants  
joeinpa : 10/9/2017 4:19 pm : link
But an argument could be made that other more mobile guys, have played more effectively behind equally deficient offensive lines

It become increasingly evident with each passing week that a quarterbacks like Prescott, Wentz, that can also make plays with their legs are a tremendous advantage for their teas.

Every week I see quarterbacks like those two, escape situations to make plays, where Eli just drops to the ground.

Not a knock on Eli, but it s a reality.
When you ignore drafting for  
old man : 10/9/2017 4:33 pm : link
the OL with 1 exception(Beatty)... and the LB positions until the 4th round the first half of your GM tenure...more or less flub your high OL picks the second half of your tenure....then still refuse to draft LB high....PLUS have to buy 1/2 of your front 4 and your CBs...even though you've had the #9..10..12 and 16 spot in the draft....:
A.THIS is the result.
B.You should have no longer been or be employed as GM.
Probably Would Have Been Three SBs  
clatterbuck : 10/9/2017 4:42 pm : link
were it not for Plaxico. They were the best team in the league until that incident.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 10/9/2017 4:47 pm : link
I think the Giants should have made the playoffs more frequently with Eli. 2009/2010/2012, specifically. But they got more rings than other teams with better QBs.

The Packers are going 25 years with Favre/Rodgers and have as many rings to show for it as we do with Eli in 14. Brees only has one. The Peyton/Luck string are on year 19 and only have one and seem unlikely to get another anytime soon.

Some of the 'playoff volatility' can be traced to Eli himself. He's a streaky player.

I'm not going to view the Giants as letting Eli down when we see how hard it is to win around the league. The past five years have sucked, but winning two rings in 14 seasons is a tremendous success.
Terrible that after Eli was resigned to 20M+  
WideRight : 10/9/2017 4:50 pm : link
The Giants couldn't manage to build a team around him.
I think this year is the year that keeps him out of the HoF  
SHO'NUFF : 10/9/2017 5:06 pm : link
if there ever was a swing vote, it just turned sour on us.
RE: ....  
TexasGmenFan : 10/9/2017 5:13 pm : link
In comment 13639632 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I think the Giants should have made the playoffs more frequently with Eli. 2009/2010/2012, specifically. But they got more rings than other teams with better QBs.

The Packers are going 25 years with Favre/Rodgers and have as many rings to show for it as we do with Eli in 14. Brees only has one. The Peyton/Luck string are on year 19 and only have one and seem unlikely to get another anytime soon.

Some of the 'playoff volatility' can be traced to Eli himself. He's a streaky player.

I'm not going to view the Giants as letting Eli down when we see how hard it is to win around the league. The past five years have sucked, but winning two rings in 14 seasons is a tremendous success.


i guess to some extent call it greediness as a fan.

if in the summer of 2004 you told me (or likely any NYG fan) that the career of Eli Manning would net 2 rings and in the process, one of them would be accomplished via taking out an undefeated team in the SB, i'd ask where to sign.

i think it's just that Eli's career can almost cleanly be split in half between perennial playoff contender (and 2 rings) to a team that has netted a single playoff appearance.

i definitely recognize that it's not as if Eli has played all-world while the rest of the team has underperformed or something, just seems like coming off of his best season, we still should've been perennial playoff contenders at worst over the ensuing years.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 10/9/2017 5:19 pm : link
I definitely see your point and am sympathetic to the frustration. I thought that we'd see more consistent playoff appearances and some deep runs as well after 2011.

I wish we saw 2009-2011 Eli with the 2005-2008 teams. Eli's best ball coincided with the team deteriorating. The 2011 team was not a great team in my view - I still don't think Eli's 2011 regular season gets the credit it deserves.
Agree on all points, Texas  
exiled : 10/9/2017 5:26 pm : link
It was clear during the second half of 2012 that the line was struggling—and so was the whole offense. It will ALWAYS piss me off as a fan, the way they wasted these seasons with Eli.
RE: .....  
TexasGmenFan : 10/9/2017 5:27 pm : link
In comment 13639697 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I definitely see your point and am sympathetic to the frustration. I thought that we'd see more consistent playoff appearances and some deep runs as well after 2011.

I wish we saw 2009-2011 Eli with the 2005-2008 teams. Eli's best ball coincided with the team deteriorating. The 2011 team was not a great team in my view - I still don't think Eli's 2011 regular season gets the credit it deserves.


that 2nd ring sits squarely on his shoulders IMO. he should've been league MVP, but hey, ask people outside the Giants fanbase (or at least most of the fanbase...) and Eli is lucky that his defense got him 2 rings.
Reese and McAdoo  
gmenatlarge : 10/9/2017 5:30 pm : link
Should pay with their jobs for their "utter" failure to protect this guy with some sort of O-line, unforgiveable!!!!!!!!!
I think all of this  
TrueBlue56 : 10/9/2017 5:33 pm : link
Sits on Reese and Mara. In 2012 when Coughlins players were declining and retiring, Reese and Mara decided to be reactive instead of proactive and they piecemealed this team. They fired the defensive coordinator, then they fired the offensive coordinator and eventually they fired the head coach.

As evidenced by where this team is now and seeing what steps Jacksonville has been taking in upgrading their team under Coughlin, it is clear to me that the wrong people were in charge and the wrong people were let go.

The giants fumbled the ball and my only hope is that they finally see that status quo is unacceptable and they make wholesale changes next year.
RE: Terrible that after Eli was resigned to 20M+  
Blue Moon : 10/9/2017 5:41 pm : link
In comment 13639645 WideRight said:
Quote:
The Giants couldn't manage to build a team around him.




That's the result when you continue to employ GM who's an empty suit for all the wrong reasons.
It was obvious in Pre-Season but we didn't want to admit it .  
Bluesbreaker : 10/9/2017 5:54 pm : link
Reese's track record speaks for itself and Mac is not an
NFL ready coach . Now that we get to know him a bit better
I see nothing about him that makes me want him back .
Good post  
montanagiant : 10/9/2017 5:56 pm : link
Add to it the fact that both SB's were the result of a team getting hot at the right time and Eli being an absolute gun-slinging warrior during the playoffs. It wasn't like we were dominate during those SB runs during the season.
RE: Has Eli truly been a  
Gman11 : 10/9/2017 6:18 pm : link
In comment 13639538 djm said:
Quote:
Or just another decent qb that goes along for the ride. Be it a bumpy ride to nowhere or a nice ride to a one and done playoffs?

It's a scary question. Impossible to answer without plenty of debate. All I know is we've sucked for a long time now and save for two halfway decent Offensive seasons in 14 and 15, the offense has been a major reason why we've sucked. The offense hasn't carried anything. The qb hasn't carried anything.

I give up.


Whether you're right or not I think you should see a bunch of BBIers at your door with torches and pitchforks tonight.
The team brutally mismanaged everything from 2012 to today  
Go Terps : 10/9/2017 6:27 pm : link
As Eli aged the offensive line should have become a higher priority. Instead it was allowed to deteriorate, and the running game withered to a pathetic state.

The Giants were blessed with a guy that played every game, and did so at a high level. The record since 2012 should be better than 39-46.
RE: The team brutally mismanaged everything from 2012 to today  
TexasGmenFan : 10/9/2017 6:32 pm : link
In comment 13639832 Go Terps said:
Quote:
As Eli aged the offensive line should have become a higher priority. Instead it was allowed to deteriorate, and the running game withered to a pathetic state.

The Giants were blessed with a guy that played every game, and did so at a high level. The record since 2012 should be better than 39-46.


bingo. i'm not discounting the fact that we got 2 rings during Eli's tenure, that's in fact not my grievance at all. the fact of the matter is that we got them during a period of being a somewhat legitimate contender for half of his tenure only.

a 7 games below .500 to go with 1 playoff game on the heels of what was accomplished in the first half of his career is what is most disappointing to me. the signs were on the wall for several years. the funny thing is, in theory, the front office has burned several high picks on OL (Beatty, Flowers, Pugh, Richburg) but the problem seems to be in talent evaluation.

yet, while this team was more than happy to blow a wad on defense when they realized the failings of their drafting, they did no such justice for the OL.

To me that's what's so alarming  
ChaChing : 10/9/2017 6:39 pm : link
the consistent inability to scout / develop OL despite the obvious weakness. I don't presume to know the biggest issue, but either we suck at picking them, if not choosing the best OL for our schemes, if not helping them improve in season, year to year, if not having complementary playcall or just putting our best 5 out there

We've put in some resources w/ several picks and some FAs, but few if any pan out. Obviously there's a million factors including injuries but since Snee's last 2 yrs and the consistent lack of a workable plan B it's been awful. It's not easy but mgmt seems to have blinders on; this is about the 5-6th yr straight we fielded a subpar OL, whether we expected improved health, development, talent...in almost no instance has it been reliable even at the individual level. Despite 5-6 yrs of coaches backing them preseason, they were always worse in real games, often right from the first snap

If we can say that Reese did all the drafting with little input from his coaches or point a finger at 1 person, that would be great. But unfortunately it seems like a larger issue across several levels. There's a slew of pros at HC, OC, OL coach who are unable to do much better. It can change quickly - be it with proper talent, improved scouting, better coaches - but for now it's a concerning pattern and continued major problem
Eli was streaky, he was capable of great highs  
jcn56 : 10/9/2017 6:41 pm : link
and unfortunately, some untimely and unfortunate lows.

Remember that killer season in 08 that ended in Plax blowing his leg off? Well, the D was running out of steam too - but we had a home playoff game against Philly. Here's a recap from Big Blue View:

Quote:
Eli Manning: As good as Eli was during last season's run to the Super Bowl, he was that bad Sunday. Not Jake Delhomme bad, mind you, but bad. Eli was just 15-for-29 for 169 yards and 2 interceptions. He threw only a handful of quality passes all day. The winds were awful at Giants Stadium, and they obviously affected Eli. For whatever reason -- arm strength, lack of a consistent spiral, I don't really know -- Eli always seems to struggle with the wind. It didn't help that he was consistently being asked to throw the ball down the field instead of short, but by the end of the game even his short throws were off target. Manning connected on one long pass to Domenik Hixon, but there were several plays to be made where Eli simply could not get the ball there. And the interception he threw that turned into the Eagles first touchdown was a horrible throw, matched only by the incredibly stupid play call.


Don't get me wrong, Eli's our best QB of all time (modern times, I go back to Simms and can't speak to anyone before him). He's a great guy, he's played exceptionally well. But to make it sound like he's infallible in all the losing that's happened the past few years when he's played a part, or to sound like we let him down because we didn't pair him with talent and left trophies on the table is ridiculous.
https://www.bigblueview.com/2009/1/12/717056/kudos-wet-willies-it-s-ov - ( New Window )
It is a shame...  
Dan in the Springs : 10/9/2017 6:56 pm : link
but a great observation to conclude - having a true franchise QB doesn't guarantee future playoff experiences. You have to have great coaching, excellent cap management, success in the draft and wise FA choices, and health to have a shot each year. In fact, if you have those things you might be able to contend each year even if the guy you've got isn't considered a "franchise" guy.

Which is why next year I'd be more comfortable trading down in the draft if we're looking at a franchise QB. Give me multiple picks to build a club around and I'll take my chances with an aging Eli and promising Webb.

Let's fix the things that are wrong with this organization instead of drafting a replacement QB as a fix for one of the few things that hasn't been wrong.
RE: RE: Has Eli truly been a  
djm : 10/9/2017 7:13 pm : link
In comment 13639550 TexasGmenFan said:
Quote:
In comment 13639538 djm said:


Quote:


Or just another decent qb that goes along for the ride. Be it a bumpy ride to nowhere or a nice ride to a one and done playoffs?

It's a scary question. Impossible to answer without plenty of debate. All I know is we've sucked for a long time now and save for two halfway decent Offensive seasons in 14 and 15, the offense has been a major reason why we've sucked. The offense hasn't carried anything. The qb hasn't carried anything.

I give up.



it's a decent argument, but unless one believes Eli fell off a cliff following his absolute best season, then one could say that there was still plenty left in the tank. maybe not with the consistency of a Brady/Rogers, but certainly enough to be a 9-11 W team and earn playoff berths here and there.


Yup
2008  
mattlawson : 10/9/2017 8:31 pm : link
And 2010 were the "what might have been" years.

Could have easily gone to the ship those years if a couple things went differently.
If the Giants didn't neglect Eli  
WillVAB : 10/9/2017 10:22 pm : link
And coddled him like Matt Ryan we'd have a completely different perspective about this.

Ever since the Falcons took Ryan they've bent over backwards to build an offense around him. Gave up a decent amount to get Julio. Built an OL around him. Burned tons of picks on WRs and RBs. Even traded for Tony Gonzales when a lot of Giants fans wanted Reese to make that move.

Instead Eli gets a trash OL, trash RBs, and too little too late at WR/TE.
I like Eli, but this we ruined his last 5 years is a bit silly  
Banks : 10/9/2017 11:14 pm : link
Yep, the OL has been a mess for quite a while. There have been several failed FA signings (Baas, Schwartz) and draft picks (Beatty,Flowers, Pugh, Richburg). It happens and Eli is far from alone in this. Take a look at this of qbs during the last 5 years. You think Eli's been sacked a lot? He's not even in the top 15. Rivers hasn't had a line in literally 10 yrs. Go take at their rushing and sacks allowed. It's atrocious. Matt Ryan was mentioned. Run ranked 29, 32, 24, 19, 5. For 4 years they were right with us or worse. They've also allowed more sacks. Luck has never had a run game and also gets clobbered at a high rate. Brees hasn't had a solid team around him for ages.
You can go through that and see that a lot of qbs have hardships. Some have performed better through it than others. It sucks that we have a crap team for much of the past 5 years and haven't had a chance to make one last run with our franchise qb, but it's not unique. Only NE seems to be immune.
pfr - ( New Window )
Eli also has not been a difference maker  
NikkiMac : 10/10/2017 6:08 am : link
Or made any really good plays in the last five years ..... I just about lost it last week when he finally looked at the open field with intent to run he’s thrown a lot of interceptions and not all the OL fault

If they dump the coach you can probably say goodbye to Eli as I don’t see him trying to learn a new system

Maybe John Gruden is the answer as he comes from that system of WCO if he even wants the job !
Reese  
gmenatlarge : 10/10/2017 8:50 am : link
got distracted by shiny metal objects instead of building a goddam O-line and D-line, which is where games are won!
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